Best moves of each type

[MistressRemilia]

IMO

and 's neutral B's should be added, over and 's

's up throw ahould be added, if up throw is at max, add it over or 's

Add 's jab, over 's

Remove 's sise tilt, that move is awful

Dedede's jab is pretty bad, very slow & can be easily escaped due to a also slow af Jab 2.

 

[Vyrnx]

Add 's jab, over 's

Remove 's sise tilt, that move is awful

Luigi's jab is top class and utterly amazing. A frame 10 jab could never replace Luigi's or any other jab up there.

Samus' ftilt isn't bad at all. It has the best range of any tilt in the game, fast recoil with very small lag compared to distance (meaning it's impossible to punish when spaced), two hitboxes that set up tech chases at two percent ranges, angled up stops a ton of aerial approaches, and it has kill potential. Pivot ftilt is good too. I thought it was a weird addition at first as well, but when you consider a lot of characters have super crap awful ftilts with very little utility compared to Samus', Samus' is a totally safe poke that used in tandem with zair and to a lesser degree dtilt, dash attack, grab is the reason she has probably the second best midrange zoning game behind Mega Man, maybe better. Zair + ftilt is midrange keepaway. The range is deceptive, so I can't blame you if you hadn't noticed, but try it in training mode. It's range is crazy because of the way Samus leans forward during the kick. Although it is worth noting WFT's could probably replace Samus' or Dedede's, regardless, both those characters have good side tilts. I also really like Link's side tilt.

 

[Sykkamorre]

So, contender for the top spot in down B: Cloud's limit charge.

- Can manual charge limit, limit = super early kills often.
- Can limit break charge cancel into damn near any move from dashing.
- A low lag way of getting out of tumble animation without attacking or airdodging after being struck.
- Forces people to approach in a lot of MU's. Even in MU's that don't force an approach, noone really wants cloud to have limit charged anyway.

This move is GOOD.

 

[randomguy1235]

IMO

and 's neutral B's should be added, over and 's

's up throw ahould be added, if up throw is at max, add it over or 's

Add 's jab, over 's

Remove 's sise tilt, that move is awful

D3's jab is horrendous.

 

[aεrgiα]

D3's jab is horrendous.

now i wouldnt go THAT far, not when u look at the rest of his moveset TT_TT

 

[ARGHETH]

So, contender for the top spot in down B: Cloud's limit charge.

- Can manual charge limit, limit = super early kills often.
- Can limit break charge cancel into damn near any move from dashing.
- A low lag way of getting out of tumble animation without attacking or airdodging after being struck.
- Forces people to approach in a lot of MU's. Even in MU's that don't force an approach, noone really wants cloud to have limit charged anyway.

This move is GOOD.

Ehh...Top 3, probably. I dunno how good it is compared to BF/FJ, considering those get you out of disadvantage, have intangability frames, can be used to recover, and kills.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Ehh...Top 3, probably. I dunno how good it is compared to BF/FJ, considering those get you out of disadvantage, have intangability frames, can be used to recover, and kills.

Fair enough, I said contender for that reason exactly.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

It has a very effective combination of range, power, speed, and safety on shield.

Um...then wouldn't Peach's Fsmash essentially be the same?
Also idk about most others, but F15 isn't exactly fast, not the slowest, but not really fast.
I could be wrong but I'm sure it's still punishable on shield and its power mostly comes from its high BKB, but with it having a weird sourspot/sweetspot placement, it can be survived even at high %.
The great disjoint is good for sure.

But mostly if that were the case, Kirby's would be close(kinda doubtful for top 10 but possibly top 15?)
It's faster and stronger, not really safe on shield and doesn't have the best range, but more reach.

Mostly saying, its a little tough to say its top 10, then again there are some questionable Fsmash choices for top 10, so that shows how few are actually good....so actually now that I think about it, Pikas is a top 10 contender. Does have some good things going for it.

 

[Teshie U]

So, contender for the top spot in down B: Cloud's limit charge.

- Can manual charge limit, limit = super early kills often.
- Can limit break charge cancel into damn near any move from dashing.
- A low lag way of getting out of tumble animation without attacking or airdodging after being struck.
- Forces people to approach in a lot of MU's. Even in MU's that don't force an approach, noone really wants cloud to have limit charged anyway.

This move is GOOD.

How exactly are we looking at Limit though? Its kind of like Pikmin plucking where its linked so closely to the rest of his moveset, even his physics that its hard to even rank in a vacuum. If we look at only the things the "Down+B" Input does, I don't think its that amazing. Charging up a meter into some stupid, laggy gimmick isn't really that big of a deal. Without his broken lagless Uair/Dair/Nair he isn't setting up into that slow move.

Link's bomb seems like the best Down B to me. Items are broken options and it buffs any recovery to an absurd extent.

 

[Planty]

Link's bomb seems like the best Down B to me. Items are broken options and it buffs any recovery to an absurd extent.

Tink's bombs are the better one's though, aren't they?

Even so, bouncing fish and flip kick are still better.

 

[Teshie U]

Flip Kick is broken, but obviously situational. Bouncing fish combos out of sheik's lagless nonsense, but its been nerfed in power a couple of times and its not a huge deal on its own. Bombs kind of do everything. OoS option, kill confirm, recovery buff, invincible hitboxes, priority. stage control.

I think toon link's bombs perform better because toon link can jump high enough for easy confirms. Link's bombs blow up faster and buff his recovery (they'd buff any recovery, some would even become infinite).

 

[Masonomace]

You realize Needles exist, right? That alone knocks it off the top.

I said that Monado arts are a contender for one of the best NeutralBs. I did not say that Monado arts is the best NeutralB in the game. Here's a TL;DR version of what the Monado arts could potentially change for your character:

Spoiler: Monado art buffs & debuffs

Key
-Jump height: the height reached through jumping, mostly affected by a Short Hop, Full Hop, Doublejump, & ledge-jump
-Air speed: the distance traveled moving left or right while in midair
-Fall speed: the distance traveled moving downwards in midair
-Air Slash height: how high Shulk travels when using his Air Slash, Advancing Air Slash, & Mighty Air Slash
-Damage taken: the resistance to taking regular damage
-Ground speed: how fast you move through a grounded movement option. Mostly affects dashing, walking, & running
-Traction: a measure of how long it takes to stop moving from a sideways force when grounded
-Damage dealt: attacking an opponent's hurt-box or their bubble shield. More damage also deals greater shield knockback
-Knockback taken: the amount of knockback the user resists against an attack
-Shield health: the amount of HP your bubble shield has
-Shield regeneration: the rate of HP your bubble shield regenerates per second
-Knockback dealt: the amount of knockback your attack deals to an opponent's hurt-box

Monado art | Buffs | Debuffs 翔 (Monado Jump) | Jump height | Damage taken (+22% = 1.22x)
| Air speed
| Fall speed
| Air Slash height 疾 (Monado Speed) | Ground speed | Damage dealt (–20% = 0.80x)
| Air speed | Jump height
| Traction aka Friction 盾 (Monado Shield) | Damage taken (–33% = 0.67x) | Damage dealt (–30% = 0.70x)
| Knockback taken | Jump height
| Shield health (~63 HP) | Ground speed
| Shield regeneration | Air speed 斬 (Monado Buster) | Damage dealt (+40% = 1.4x) | Damage taken (+13% = 1.13x)
| | Knockback dealt 撃 (Monado Smash) | Knockback dealt | Damage dealt (–50% = 0.5x)
| | Knockback taken

Basically, if Sheik had Monado arts & she activated Jump art, she'd have a higher jump height / force, more fall speed, more air speed & more Vanish height. Vanish is already good because it's invincible for most of the startup iirc, & boosting that move's height to potentially be DEEP & still come back would be a godsend. More fall speed means you'd be able to survive / resist against vertical knockback on the fly & control your air spacing more especially with greater air speed as well. Jump height would be fine too, because you could probably Short Hop Uair & autocancel thanks to the increased jump force.

And that was just jump art ^. You still have the goods to think about from the Speed Shield Buster & Smash arts.

 

[Sykkamorre]

How exactly are we looking at Limit though? Its kind of like Pikmin plucking where its linked so closely to the rest of his moveset, even his physics that its hard to even rank in a vacuum. If we look at only the things the "Down+B" Input does, I don't think its that amazing. Charging up a meter into some stupid, laggy gimmick isn't really that big of a deal. Without his broken lagless Uair/Dair/Nair he isn't setting up into that slow move.

Link's bomb seems like the best Down B to me. Items are broken options and it buffs any recovery to an absurd extent.

I'm assuming by "laggy gimmick" you mean FT.
Please do remember what else is unlocked after the meter is fully charged.
Limit beam: the perfect antiprojectile projectile. Intangible and powerful with multi hit, dealing a hefty amount of damage.
Limit slash: Safe on shield, low endlag, can stop movement totally in midair for all sorts of shenanigans off the stage, kills very early and has deft range.
Limit climhazzard: Fast, decent range, tramples and kills at around 110.
Finishing touch: Slow but it still kills at 80 roughly at the very latest.

Before it's fully charged he has the ILBC for all sorts of movement stuff including some very silly run away games.

So to summerize, the move itself acts as a lagless movement option culminating in the buff of a character's special moves that borders on the insane. Please imagine almost any other character with this, giving the capability to cancel dash into any attack, instantly stopping tumble animation after being struck and culminating in their special moves killing in the low hundreds or even lower AND unlocking a one time boost to recovery before resetting.

Sounds pretty good to me.

 

[ARGHETH]

Basically, if Sheik had Monado arts & she activated Jump art, she'd have a higher jump height / force, more fall speed, more air speed & more Vanish height. Vanish is already good because it's invincible for most of the startup iirc, & boosting that move's height to potentially be DEEP & still come back would be a godsend. More fall speed means you'd be able to survive / resist against vertical knockback on the fly & control your air spacing more especially with greater air speed as well. Jump height would be fine too, because you could probably Short Hop Uair & autocancel thanks to the increased jump force.

She also loses one of the best projectiles in the game, the ability to out-zone zoners, and a very effective way to force approaches.
Honestly, though, someone more familiar with Sheik should be talking about this. I can say that I probably wouldn't take Monando arts over Thunder as a Robin main, due to losing a fast projectile (Elthunder), a shield pressure tool that traps opponents (Arcthunder), and a screen-crossing killing projectile.

 

[Teshie U]

Now that I think about it, Buster Sheik's combo game would probably give her legit infinites.

 

[Teshie U]

I'm assuming by "laggy gimmick" you mean FT.
Please do remember what else is unlocked after the meter is fully charged.
Limit beam: the perfect antiprojectile projectile. Intangible and powerful with multi hit, dealing a hefty amount of damage.
Limit slash: Safe on shield, low endlag, can stop movement totally in midair for all sorts of shenanigans off the stage, kills very early and has deft range.
Limit climhazzard: Fast, decent range, tramples and kills at around 110.
Finishing touch: Slow but it still kills at 80 roughly at the very latest.

Before it's fully charged he has the ILBC for all sorts of movement stuff including some very silly run away games.

So to summerize, the move itself acts as a lagless movement option culminating in the buff of a character's special moves that borders on the insane. Please imagine almost any other character with this, giving the capability to cancel dash into any attack, instantly stopping tumble animation after being struck and culminating in their special moves killing in the low hundreds or even lower AND unlocking a one time boost to recovery before resetting.

Sounds pretty good to me.

Like I said, its linked to his other specials. Hard to say its the best Down B, when the best things it does involve synergy with Side, Up and Neutral B.


Why is Samus up there for ftilt? Its just a generic side kick that many other characters have a better version of anyway. Sonic, Wii Fit, Ryu and Villager all have more versatile ftilts.

 

[Masonomace]

She also loses one of the best projectiles in the game, the ability to out-zone zoners, and a very effective way to force approaches.
Honestly, though, someone more familiar with Sheik should be talking about this. I can say that I probably wouldn't take Monando arts over Thunder as a Robin main, due to losing a fast projectile (Elthunder), a shield pressure tool that traps opponents (Arcthunder), and a screen-crossing killing projectile.

All of that is fine & fair, I just wanted to bring up Sheik for just an example. If we talked about Luigi having Monado arts, I'm fairly sure that would be more nasty to us & favoring for the Luigi perspective.
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Now that I think about it, Buster Sheik's combo game would probably give her legit infinites.

Omg that would be nasty. Buster Sheik's Fthrow > Ftilt strings would be nonsense. Dthrow > Fair strings too.
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Limit Charge / Finishing Touch would be a contender for DownBs that I would support for the Best of list. I just don't know who I'd favor it for. Maybe replace DK? Although DK's DownB can break shields from pressuring the ledge options & can meteor off-stage, but I see DK get more Fair & Dair meteors than DownB so eh.

EDIT: Also Trifroze your OP says you won't add more than 10, but you have 11 NeutralBs.

And if Pit has a spot for his Fthrow & Dash Attack, is that implying that Dark Pit also shares that spot or do they both get a place? Fthrow only having 7 characters right now means that 3 additional Best of Fthrows can get in there.

 

[Routa]

and Up B's aren't THAT good. Sure they come out fast, but their distance is meh and pitiful respectively. Damage is OK and I'll admit that Doc's is a great kill move OoS. But 's is an amazing OoS tool (one of the best imo) and actually goes up quite high if you mash well.

Doc's Up-B is pretty much the best OoS move in game. Well tbh it shares the spot with Samus' Up-B. Why? Doc's Up-B is very powerful, fast and hardest to punish out from the top OoS moves. Why? It travels a short distance. Samus' Up-B is extreamly good, but if missed it is easier to punish than Doc's due to long range. Ofc short distance makes Doc's Up-B a very very VERY bad move for recovery. But overall it belong to top 10 Up-B moves. Very few moves are that good OoS. I mean after all Doc is the King from OoS (hue hue hue).

Also do we compare moves in a vacuum or not? I mean some moves are good with 1 kind of moveset, but when put onto other character they become bad for example Little Mac's D-tilt (no one els can follow up it with KO Puch as far as I know).

 

[aεrgiα]

She also loses one of the best projectiles in the game, the ability to out-zone zoners, and a very effective way to force approaches.
Honestly, though, someone more familiar with Sheik should be talking about this. I can say that I probably wouldn't take Monando arts over Thunder as a Robin main, due to losing a fast projectile (Elthunder), a shield pressure tool that traps opponents (Arcthunder), and a screen-crossing killing projectile.

really? u wouldnt give that up for a move which could remedy robins movement speed issue, that could make all those down throw combos deal1.4x damage, make ur already powerful aerials even more powerful, and your back throw even stronger? i dunno, i mean in the end its about preference, and im no robin main so im not the best person to ask, but if its about my mains... well leaving out the fact that both neutral specials arent the greatest, for lucas, i would trade any of my specials for monados and for d3 i would trade all but his up b(since unlike lucas he has no tether to remedy the lack of it, though jump art d3 probably wouldnt need his up b) and thinking about it, buster would most likely give both chars approach options that are actually safe on shield o.O

 

[ARGHETH]

really? u wouldnt give that up for a move which could remedy robins movement speed issue,

Assuming it's a 1.2x buff, that puts us between Dedede and Link, which honestly doesn't seem enough to make a huge difference.

and your back throw even stronger?

We don't really use Bthrow to kill that often anyways...

that could make all those down throw combos deal1.4x damage

Robin also loses one of his methods at getting the grab, Arcthunder.

The thing is, it really isn't that simple. While it would help Robin's damage output and knockback, Robin doesn't need extra damage and knockback. Meanwhile, he just lost half his neutral and some of his kill options, while gaining some extra damage and killing at slightly lower percents. Dthrow --> jab, for example, does ~30% now with Buster, but now the window that it works on is shifted higher, which is good or bad, depending on the situation. Robin is dependent on both Arcfire and the Thunder variants, but Arcfire on its own doesn't work nearly as well. YMMV on this whole thing, really, since some Robins would take the arts and shifted gameplan while others (like me) think that it doesn't work.
One other complaint I have is that the arts don't really work with the durability mechanic. Maybe he can only use it X amount of times?
On the upside, Uthrow might actually become useful with Smash. If Nosferatu (and maybe Arcfire) were on the line, I'd definitely switch.

 

[aεrgiα]

Assuming it's a 1.2x buff, that puts us between Dedede and Link, which honestly doesn't seem enough to make a huge difference.

We don't really use Bthrow to kill that often anyways...

Robin also loses one of his methods at getting the grab, Arcthunder.

The thing is, it really isn't that simple. While it would help Robin's damage output and knockback, Robin doesn't need extra damage and knockback. Meanwhile, he just lost half his neutral and some of his kill options, while gaining some extra damage and killing at slightly lower percents. Dthrow --> jab, for example, does ~30% now with Buster, but now the window that it works on is shifted higher, which is good or bad, depending on the situation. Robin is dependent on both Arcfire and the Thunder variants, but Arcfire on its own doesn't work nearly as well. YMMV on this whole thing, really, since some Robins would take the arts and shifted gameplan while others (like me) think that it doesn't work.
One other complaint I have is that the arts don't really work with the durability mechanic. Maybe he can only use it X amount of times?
On the upside, Uthrow might actually become useful with Smash. If Nosferatu (and maybe Arcfire) were on the line, I'd definitely switch.

im pretty sure the speed increase is a lot more than x1.2sadly i cant back this up with data(couldnt find anything on it all i found were various sites saying it increased his speed... well duh!) all i can say is that speed shulk feels a lot faster than diddy, which is what his running speed would be if the multiplier was 1.2(unless i made an error in calculation, i hope not), its more comparable to sonic which would be more like x2.3(which would make robin faster than cpt falcon). also i think rather than saying he lost half his neutral id say the shifted gameplan is a much better analogy, and i can definitely respect that reasoning id just like to say, im talking about the specials as they are, no adaptation to the character, so there would be no durability limit on it

 

[Masonomace]

Assuming it's a 1.2x buff, that puts us between Dedede and Link, which honestly doesn't seem enough to make a huge difference.

We don't really use Bthrow to kill that often anyways...

Robin also loses one of his methods at getting the grab, Arcthunder.

The thing is, it really isn't that simple. While it would help Robin's damage output and knockback, Robin doesn't need extra damage and knockback. Meanwhile, he just lost half his neutral and some of his kill options, while gaining some extra damage and killing at slightly lower percents. Dthrow --> jab, for example, does ~30% now with Buster, but now the window that it works on is shifted higher, which is good or bad, depending on the situation. Robin is dependent on both Arcfire and the Thunder variants, but Arcfire on its own doesn't work nearly as well. YMMV on this whole thing, really, since some Robins would take the arts and shifted gameplan while others (like me) think that it doesn't work.
One other complaint I have is that the arts don't really work with the durability mechanic. Maybe he can only use it X amount of times?
On the upside, Uthrow might actually become useful with Smash. If Nosferatu (and maybe Arcfire) were on the line, I'd definitely switch.

im pretty sure the speed increase is a lot more than x1.2sadly i cant back this up with data(couldnt find anything on it all i found were various sites saying it increased his speed... well duh!) all i can say is that speed shulk feels a lot faster than diddy, which is what his running speed would be if the multiplier was 1.2(unless i made an error in calculation, i hope not), its more comparable to sonic which would be more like x2.3(which would make robin faster than cpt falcon). also i think rather than saying he lost half his neutral id say the shifted gameplan is a much better analogy, and i can definitely respect that reasoning id just like to say, im talking about the specials as they are, no adaptation to the character, so there would be no durability limit on it

Disclaimer: I do not know the exact multipliers for anything involving speed or knockback for the arts.

Spoiler: Monado arts discussion

Based on a run speed multiplier, it would be much higher than 1.2x. Vanilla Shulk's run speed value is 1.52, & when Monado Speed is active, Speed Shulk runs faster than Captain Falcon who is the second fastest running character with a value of 2.32, & drifts with air speed that rivals Yoshi if not beating his air speed value. So the running speed multiplier would be around 1.6x or higher, & the air speed multiplier would be around ~1.2. This means that Speed Robin's max run speed value would be around ~1.84 or higher, rivaling Diddy Kong & Pikachu or someone faster. But Monado Speed increases more than just run speed. . you increase walk speed, initial dash speed, your perfect pivot distance grows, & your pivoted options sliiiiiiiiide favorably for superior spacing, aka sliding pivot grab <3. So, Speed Robin's pivoted Arcfire, tome item throws, & pivot grab would be mighty & your air speed would rival Zero Suit Samus & Mii Brawler. I want to believe that Speed art would completely change Robin but I'm not a Robin primary.

Now, you would be by far the slowest thing alive with Monado Shield XD, but you'd also never die if you played your arts right. Durability mechanic with the arts would be interesting, but arts go on a cooldown system kinda like the tomes do for regeneration, so they share a bit pf similarity. Monado Buster would make your Levin aerials beyond safe on block unless they were perfect shielded & punished with amazing reaction time, but that's anyone basically. Still, a Levin Bair dealing 15% multiplied by 1.4 x freshness would make a fresh Levin Bair deal ~22.05%. Disgusting. Monado Smash does increase knockback by a good amount too, your Bthrow & Uthrow would end up becoming fairly good kill options to seal the stock.

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Doc's Up-B is pretty much the best OoS move in game. Well tbh it shares the spot with Samus' Up-B. Why? Doc's Up-B is very powerful, fast and hardest to punish out from the top OoS moves. Why? It travels a short distance. Samus' Up-B is extreamly good, but if missed it is easier to punish than Doc's due to long range. Ofc short distance makes Doc's Up-B a very very VERY bad move for recovery. But overall it belong to top 10 Up-B moves. Very few moves are that good OoS. I mean after all Doc is the King from OoS (hue hue hue).

Also do we compare moves in a vacuum or not? I mean some moves are good with 1 kind of moveset, but when put onto other character they become bad for example Little Mac's D-tilt (no one els can follow up it with KO Puch as far as I know).

I can dig that. Frame 3 for a hard-hitting move oos is kinda nuts. The only thing that would hold me back from supporting Dr. Mario for having thee best UpB would be his poor traction / friction value. Still, other characters that possess better friction such as Little Mac, Zero Suit Samus, Peach, Link, Mii Swordfighter, Samus, Bowser, Marth, & Lucina all don't have as threatening of an UpB oos like Dr. Mario does. Except for maybe Little Mac & Zero Suit Samus.

Also the vacuum concept is weird, but I've been using it for Monado arts strictly because the move is an interesting adaptive tool with tons of applications. If I was playing any character, I wished they had Monado arts.

EDIT: Also, Bowser's UpB grounded oos is good too. I forgot to include it in my list of higher traction characters with their respective UpB oos option.
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EDIT: Would a good standing grab be defined by simply having a high traction value & good grab frame data? Like, Lucario is #1 highest traction with a frame 6 grab, but Jigglypuff also has a frame 6 grab & possesses the #2 highest traction value. I just don't know grab ranges yet because the devs wanted the Sandbag not to be grabbed in this game zzz. . .

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Greninja, Bowser, and Falco should probably be added to the Up Throw section. All three have insanely powerful U-Throw combos that can deal 20%+ damage.

Falco's Up air should also be added to the up air section (not sure who he should replace). Its really good at juggling and can combo into numerous moves like his Bair, Fair, Nair and Up Tilt.

Is there something about Marth's forward air that makes it so good? I feel that numerous other forward airs are so much better due to having better hitboxes and / or less endlag / landing lag.

 

[Vyrnx]

Why is Samus up there for ftilt? Its just a generic side kick that many other characters have a better version of anyway. Sonic, Wii Fit, Ryu and Villager all have more versatile ftilts.

If you compare the range of tilts across different characters, Samus' ftilt has vastly greater range than every tilt other than Dedede's ftilt, which it still has more range than, just more slightly. The difference is huge. I don't see how you are looking at those other ftilts (bar WFT's) and seeing, "Oh, they are clear upgrades of Samus'." I see it the other way around.

WFT I can swallow because of kill potential, it's better than Samus' and others on the ftilt list, it probably just got left out.

But looking at Ryu as an example, his ftilt is an awesome poke. But what's even better is if you take his ftilt and double the range without hardly changing the frame data. It's better at poking, safer (like, way safer), spammable. That's what Samus has, except she can angle it up to stop aerial approaches. The same can be said for pivoting their ftilts. Why would someone use Ryu's pivot ftilt as an anti approach? Samus' has that ability because of the range and ability to be angled up if the opponent jumps.

Those ftilts are definitely not more versatile, unless you think that these moves with comparatively poor range and inability to be angled are more adaptable. It goes against the definition. Samus' ftilt has such great utility because of its versatility in midrange.

The animation is generic, but to be a generic move it would have to be similar to other ftilts, and it isn't because no other tilt comes close in range except Dedede's ftilt, a fundamentally different move. So in other words Samus is the only character with Samus' ftilt.

Whether or not Samus' ftilt is absolutely top 10... I would have to look more at all ftilts. I'm just addressing that it's not ridiculous to say it's really good.

Edit: for anyone interested enough to test her ftilt's range, if you use Samus' ftilt over and over in training she will stay leaned forward during the animation. So to see the max range, compare where you are in idle animation when you initiate the move to where the hitbox actually appears.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

and Up B's aren't THAT good. Sure they come out fast, but their distance is meh and pitiful respectively. Damage is OK and I'll admit that Doc's is a great kill move OoS. But 's is an amazing OoS tool (one of the best imo) and actually goes up quite high if you mash well. 's is a partially intangible kill move that can be combo'd into and goes quit far in ANY direction. Imo both are better

You can reverse Mario/Doc's Up-B on hit AND on shield which makes them less unsafe. In Doc's case, he can edge guard his opponents just by doing a reversed Up-B. Add this to all of the benefits (frame 3, 13%, huge sweetspot hitbox, good KO potential) and you've got a really versatile Up-B. Can't say the same for Bowser or Zelda.

 

[aεrgiα]

You can reverse Mario/Doc's Up-B on hit AND on shield which makes them less unsafe. In Doc's case, he can edge guard his opponents just by doing a reversed Up-B. Add this to all of the benefits (frame 3, 13%, huge sweetspot hitbox, good KO potential) and you've got a really versatile Up-B. Can't say the same for Bowser or Zelda.

i think his biggest issue with their up b was definitely the recovery part of it and i can agree 100% on that, i think, if u highly value docs oos and ledge possibilities, then his up b can stay, but marios? i mean both zeldas and bowsers up b have better value as an oos option and i think both(im not 100% sure about bowser since i havent tested/compared both but zeldas definitely) go further than marios. how can you say bowser and zelda dont have versatile up bs if at the same time u argue that mario does? :/ all three of them act as a recovery, all three of them can be used oos(if we are talking about safety, zelda can up b in place) where bowsers is probably the best oos option out of the 3, zeldas is by far the best killing option(and probably the 2nd best up b at killing in the game, potentially 3rd if u think zss' is better) and zeldas can act as a landing option... docs i didnt include because, as i said, if you count everything except recovery its an amazing up b, so it comes down to how highly you value recovery vs utility overall. but if you highy value utility overall, what about ? or is his recovery just too gimpable to be considered?
also, looking at the grabs and zairs i think zair is at least better than zair and maybe better than , it has more range than tinks and about the same range as links, it comes out faster than both the links(frame 9 vs frame 11 and 12 IIRC), it combos into things, it can set up for jab locks at high % (around 110% depending on the character) which, if not teched(and it isnt easy to tech), can lead to either a jab lock to usmash/fsmash/dsmash kill or just a dsmash straight away(without the jab lock), i dont know whether its placebo or w/e but i find lucas' zair to be the best at beating out projectiles, may just be familiarity though(or is the hitbox bigger? i dunno). the only thing it loses out on is in the damage it deals(4% at the base but only 2 % at the tip, tinks does 4% all the way, and links does 2% at the base and 4% at the tip but the first hit connects into the 2nd)

as for grabs, they seem to need a bit of work, only 1 standing grab, and the pivot grabs are questionable. i think & should definitely be in there, and i dont see how dk isnt first, or at least 2nd, since bowsers pivot grab also has stupid range on it, i just dont know whose is better... i also think deserves a mention because although his throw game is bad, his pivot grab is really good
and seem questionable to me, but i definitely need to look into it a bit and compare them to others since i know d3 has pretty good range, but i dont know how it compares to pit and kriby for eg, who also lean forward quite a bit but have better mobility:/

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

i think his biggest issue with their up b was definitely the recovery part of it and i can agree 100% on that, i think, if u highly value docs oos and ledge possibilities, then his up b can stay, but marios? i mean both zeldas and bowsers up b have better value as an oos option and i think both(im not 100% sure about bowser since i havent tested/compared both but zeldas definitely) go further than marios. how can you say bowser and zelda dont have versatile up bs if at the same time u argue that mario does? :/ all three of them act as a recovery, all three of them can be used oos(if we are talking about safety, zelda can up b in place) where bowsers is probably the best oos option out of the 3, zeldas is by far the best killing option(and probably the 2nd best up b at killing in the game, potentially 3rd if u think zss' is better) and zeldas can act as a landing option... docs i didnt include because, as i said, if you count everything except recovery its an amazing up b, so it comes down to how highly you value recovery vs utility overall. but if you highy value utility overall, what about ? or is his recovery just too gimpable to be considered?

He focused too much on the recovery and ignored the importance of having a quick, damaging move that can be made safer. I admit that versatility is not always the deciding factor but if it's there and it's good, it cannot be ignored. Doc's Up-B has KO power + utility as an OOS move, a combo breaker and an edge guarding tool so it should stay.

Mario's is debatable, but 3 frame combo breaker + reversing + invincibility is something. The post was more for Doc than Mario.

Zelda's Up-B also has a lot of end lag, and much less flexibility. In terms of distance and angles, it's better but you don't have as much control as you'd expect. Up-B in place is not safe as an OOS and is not a good idea in general. And the combo (if I recall correctly) can be DI'd, so it's not necessarily that good at killing.

If you're talking about landing, then Mewtwo could also be listed based on that criterion. Palutena could probably be listed there too. It's worth noting that none of the characters listed so far (aside from Pikachu) have great landing options after using their Up-B. There are other merits to their Up-Bs that are just more consistent, safer, and/or more rewarding.

Bowser's is a good OOS option, but it's not as safe or as strong.

About Ness. I don't see it as a Top 10 Up-B. It has its' uses onstage and even offstage if you're trying to protect yourself when grabbing the ledge, but I don't think it's as powerful as the other Up-Bs. And its' not great as a recovery option either.

 

[aεrgiα]

He focused too much on the recovery and ignored the importance of having a quick, damaging move that can be made safer. I admit that versatility is not always the deciding factor but if it's there and it's good, it cannot be ignored. Doc's Up-B has KO power + utility as an OOS move, a combo breaker and an edge guarding tool so it should stay.

Mario's is debatable, but 3 frame combo breaker + reversing + invincibility is something. The post was more for Doc than Mario.

Zelda's Up-B also has a lot of end lag, and much less flexibility. In terms of distance and angles, it's better but you don't have as much control as you'd expect. Up-B in place is not safe as an OOS and is not a good idea in general. And the combo (if I recall correctly) can be DI'd, so it's not necessarily that good at killing.

If you're talking about landing, then Mewtwo could also be listed based on that criterion. Palutena could probably be listed there too. It's worth noting that none of the characters listed so far (aside from Pikachu) have great landing options after using their Up-B. There are other merits to their Up-Bs that are just more consistent, safer, and/or more rewarding.

Bowser's is a good OOS option, but it's not as safe or as strong.

About Ness. I don't see it as a Top 10 Up-B. It has its' uses onstage and even offstage if you're trying to protect yourself when grabbing the ledge, but I don't think it's as powerful as the other Up-Bs. And its' not great as a recovery option either.

docs i can agree on, as i said, it basically comes down to what you prefer/value more, and docs is really good at what it does, if we leave out the recovery aspect. yes her elevator combo can be di'd to a certain extent but nothing impossible to follow, its very good at killing, its one of the few good things about zelda... and it is safer than going up if u hit with the first part but know they are at a percent where the second hit is punishable, ofc its not safe on shield or miss, but neither are marios or docs(though its arguably safer than them since u can teleport to the sides, either direction and further than mario or docs can go), that comment was meant in the same way that doc and mario can make their up b safer on hit by reversing the direction... frame 3 and invincibility is something and ill give it that, the reversing on hit imo isnt as important as it is for doc though :/ i dont see how it doesnt have as much control as i would expect... it goes were u tell it to go, ofc u cant change direction mid invisibility/invincibility and it goes in a straight line, but so do all teleports.
if we were talking about just landing yes, but we arent, we are talking about a complete package, last i checked mewtwo and palutenas dont have a hitbox...

bowsers is around as strong as marios and a lot safer on hit, unless you reverse marios, in which case bowsers does way more damage(and its still not much safer than bowsers). if your talking about safety on shield/miss... why? its an oos option, you're not supposed to throw it out in neutral, you're meant to punish with it(and marios and docs are not safe in this situation either). if with strong you mean knockback neither bowser or mario are going to kill at reasonable percents with it(and im not even sure marios has more kb) but if you want a strong up b which can kill early, does a lot of damage, is a strong get out of combos move, why not zards up b? has super armour starting frame 4(one frame later than marios invincibility) kills much earlier than marios and even docs and is a better recovery move than docs(not sure whether its better than marios).

also i think you are underappreciating the recovery aspect, if you leave that out, macs up b could be on this list, but its not because once again, we are looking at the whole package, not just specific aspects of the move.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

yes her elevator combo can be di'd to a certain extent but nothing impossible to follow, its very good at killing, its one of the few good things about zelda... and it is safer than going up if u hit with the first part but know they are at a percent where the second hit is punishable, ofc its not safe on shield or miss, but neither are marios or docs(though its arguably safer than them since u can teleport to the sides, either direction and further than mario or docs can go), that comment was meant in the same way that doc and mario can make their up b safer on hit by reversing the direction... frame 3 and invincibility is something and ill give it that, the reversing on hit imo isnt as important as it is for doc though :/ i dont see how it doesnt have as much control as i would expect... it goes were u tell it to go, ofc u cant change direction mid invisibility/invincibility and it goes in a straight line, but so do all teleports.
if we were talking about just landing yes, but we arent, we are talking about a complete package, last i checked mewtwo and palutenas dont have a hitbox...

bowsers is around as strong as marios and a lot safer on hit, unless you reverse marios, in which case bowsers does way more damage(and its still not much safer than bowsers). if your talking about safety on shield/miss... why? its an oos option, you're not supposed to throw it out in neutral, you're meant to punish with it(and marios and docs are not safe in this situation either). if with strong you mean knockback neither bowser or mario are going to kill at reasonable percents with it(and im not even sure marios has more kb) but if you want a strong up b which can kill early, does a lot of damage, is a strong get out of combos move, why not zards up b? has super armour starting frame 4(one frame later than marios invincibility) kills much earlier than marios and even docs and is a better recovery move than docs(not sure whether its better than marios).

also i think you are underappreciating the recovery aspect, if you leave that out, macs up b could be on this list, but its not because once again, we are looking at the whole package, not just specific aspects of the move.

"yes her elevator combo can be di'd to a certain extent but nothing impossible to follow, its very good at killing, its one of the few good things about zelda"

Well....yeah.


"the reversing on hit imo isnt as important as it is for doc though"

I did say that the comment on reversing was more relevant to Doc than Mario. We can forget Mario's Up-B entirely and just talk about Bowser's and Zelda's Up-Bs.


"if we were talking about just landing yes, but we arent, we are talking about a complete package, last i checked mewtwo and palutenas dont have a hitbox..."

They're accepted as poor OOS options anyway, nor are they considered to be amazing Up-Bs. They aren't relevant. Zelda's probably has more to offer because it's relatively fast and has two hitboxes, but as a Top 10 Up-B? I'm not sure.


bowsers is around as strong as marios and a lot safer on hit, unless you reverse marios, in which case bowsers does way more damage(and its still not much safer than bowsers). if your talking about safety on shield/miss... why? its an oos option, you're not supposed to throw it out in neutral, you're meant to punish with it(and marios and docs are not safe in this situation either). if with strong you mean knockback neither bowser or mario are going to kill at reasonable percents with it(and im not even sure marios has more kb)

If you hit it. If you miss, you're screwed as any character. You're less screwed as Mario/Doc if you hit a shielded opponent compared to Bowser.

I never said that Bowser's Up-B has less knockback than Mario's Up-B or was weaker. Maybe I worded it poorly? I meant compared to ZSS or Ryu, even Doc's Up-Bs to some extent, it's not impressive. Zelda's Up-B IS impressive in terms of KO power, just not reliability.


"also i think you are underappreciating the recovery aspect, if you leave that out, macs up b could be on this list,"

I agree with the placement of Pikachu's Up-B; one of the reasons IS his recovery. I did suggest adding Little Mac as well, because of its' KO potential, its' speed and its' decent ability to hit opponents below the ledge (like Marth's Up-B), but I've changed my mind on that.

 

[LightLV]

I'm still very sad i'm not seeing any Aerials. 7 frame Nair, but beats just about every move when its out with no lag.

Fair is safe on block with spacing. Enough to frame trap almost.

Bombs either cancel or defeat EVERY projectile in the game. They lose to pretty much nothing but thoron AFAIK. lethal on the ledge as well.
Also Zair


is biased for my favorite UpB in the game. It's versatile, massive vertical distance, kills, invincible, hard to react to, stage spikes, OOS, puts a hitbox on the ledge while recovering. Very versatile move.

They also have one of the best Fsmashes in the game, with Marth's possibly killing very early and Lucina's always killing at a good percent.

unfortunately does not have the best of any move! All aerials are too laggy, tilts weak for their frames, none of her B moves need to be respected thanks to shield, UpB as a finisher is a free kill if wiffed or blocked, all grabs nerfed, Nayru's Love kinda sucks

Her spike is actually really good though, Dash attack isn't horrible.

Bair needs to be on lists. Invincible aerial on a character with extremely good mobility and range. Jab too, though it's only good in spacing.

Neutral B is a kill for any character that's recovering low, dont know if it's worthy of a "best" spot but it's damn sure one to be respected.

Bair is also godtier

Im just putting him here because his neutral B is trash

All his aerials are good, i just wish they were on a better character.

 

[aεrgiα]

"yes her elevator combo can be di'd to a certain extent but nothing impossible to follow, its very good at killing, its one of the few good things about zelda"

Well....yeah.


"the reversing on hit imo isnt as important as it is for doc though"

I did say that the comment on reversing was more relevant to Doc than Mario. We can forget Mario's Up-B entirely and just talk about Bowser's and Zelda's Up-Bs.


"if we were talking about just landing yes, but we arent, we are talking about a complete package, last i checked mewtwo and palutenas dont have a hitbox..."

They're accepted as poor OOS options anyway, nor are they considered to be amazing Up-Bs. They aren't relevant. Zelda's probably has more to offer because it's relatively fast and has two hitboxes, but as a Top 10 Up-B? I'm not sure.


bowsers is around as strong as marios and a lot safer on hit, unless you reverse marios, in which case bowsers does way more damage(and its still not much safer than bowsers). if your talking about safety on shield/miss... why? its an oos option, you're not supposed to throw it out in neutral, you're meant to punish with it(and marios and docs are not safe in this situation either). if with strong you mean knockback neither bowser or mario are going to kill at reasonable percents with it(and im not even sure marios has more kb)

If you hit it. If you miss, you're screwed as any character. You're less screwed as Mario/Doc if you hit a shielded opponent compared to Bowser.

I never said that Bowser's Up-B has less knockback than Mario's Up-B or was weaker. Maybe I worded it poorly? I meant compared to ZSS or Ryu, even Doc's Up-Bs to some extent, it's not impressive. Zelda's Up-B IS impressive in terms of KO power, just not reliability.


"also i think you are underappreciating the recovery aspect, if you leave that out, macs up b could be on this list,"

I agree with the placement of Pikachu's Up-B; one of the reasons IS his recovery. I did suggest adding Little Mac as well, because of its' KO potential, its' speed and its' decent ability to hit opponents below the ledge (like Marth's Up-B), but I've changed my mind on that.

are u trolling or something? "we can forget marios up b entirely" no we cant, its part of top 10 and you said it should stay there, ive said my piece on doc 2x, so stop trying to argue for doc against my arguments which are directed at mario

"they arent relevant" well you were the one that brought them up in the first place? all i was saying is that they arent arguments against zeldas up b, which you were using them as...

well yes your less screwed i guess... but realistically ur still getting punished for it so yeah :/ and bowsers up b isnt in the range of charged smash punish either so i dont think the de facto difference is that large.

well ill quote the relevant part of your post "Bowser's is a good OOS option, but it's not as safe or as strong." and nothing else, so, since we were previously comparing mario to the two of them(and doc but i already said(in my post before that) that he can be considered top 10, so hes out of the equation) i took that as you comparing it to marios.

but why are u bringing zss and ryu into the discussion? zss' and ryus up b are safer and stronger than docs and marios up bs too, yet doc and mario are still on the list... that doesnt contribute anything to your argument :/ if i was challenging zss' and ryus up b and saying bowsers should take their place, then it would be relevant, but im not, im saying it could take marios place (although really i dont think so, i think zelda should take the place, i dont think marios up b is better than bowsers which is what you were arguing but i dont think bowsers up b is top 10 material either(it wasnt me who said that)), im saying marios up b doesnt belong in the top 10 since there are overall, better up bs

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Zeldas upB is versatile for sure.
She does have some really good OoS options and this is especially dangerous if your not careful, sure DI can ruin it, but it can be followed and sometimes you may not react fast enough.
It's a fantastic move for recovering, going one of the longest distances and is very safe, making her tough if not sometimes impossible to edge guard.
It can be seen coming obviously at most times, and easily shielded and punished but a smart Zelda doesn't just throw it out.
If someone were to fail to tech(or does but it's harder) you can use FW to catch their Rollings, not always but is possible.

Overall I don't think it's quite top 10, but its a possible candidate, and definitely deserves an honorable mention.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

are u trolling or something? "we can forget marios up b entirely" no we cant, its part of top 10 and you said it should stay there, ive said my piece on doc 2x, so stop trying to argue for doc against my arguments which are directed at mario

You and I are arguing different things. I'm talking about Bowser/Zelda's Up-B in the place of a Top 10 list, not vs. Mario's.

What I meant by "forget mario's Up-B entirely" is that as far as I'm concerned, I have discussed why I think Mario's Up-B has a place there. So we can stop discussing its strengths and weaknesses and talk about whether Bowser's or Zelda's Up-B is Top 10.

well yes your less screwed i guess... but realistically ur still getting punished for it so yeah :/ and bowsers up b isnt in the range of charged smash punish either so i dont think the de facto difference is that large.

well ill quote the relevant part of your post "Bowser's is a good OOS option, but it's not as safe or as strong." and nothing else, so, since we were previously comparing mario to the two of them(and doc but i already said(in my post before that) that he can be considered top 10, so hes out of the equation) i took that as you comparing it to marios.

Little things matter. Being less screwed is better.

I wasn't taking about Mario vs Bowser. I meant in the context of Top 10 Up-Bs.

but why are u bringing zss and ryu into the discussion? zss' and ryus up b are safer and stronger than docs and marios up bs too, yet doc and mario are still on the list... that doesnt contribute anything to your argument :/ if i was challenging zss' and ryus up b and saying bowsers should take their place, then it would be relevant, but im not, im saying it could take marios place (although really i dont think so, i think zelda should take the place, i dont think marios up b is better than bowsers which is what you were arguing but i dont think bowsers up b is top 10 material either(it wasnt me who said that)), im saying marios up b doesnt belong in the top 10 since there are overall, better up bs

The argument is about whether Bowser's Up-B is a top 10 Up-B. And for its' type (i.e. a powerful OOS), it's not top 10 material in my opinion. That's all. I didn't talk about Mario's/Doc's Up-B specifically here.

I do agree that Zelda's up-B has more things going for it than Bowser's.

Im just putting him here because his neutral B is trash

All his aerials are good, i just wish they were on a better character.

Dair???

 

[Ffamran]

All his aerials are good, i just wish they were on a better character.

They are; his Uair is basically a 2% more ZSS Uair which for ZSS, she might prefer lower damage for a consistent 80 degree angle that can setup Boost Kicks whenever; Fair is on Pikachu and Sonic, Bair is technically on DK, Luigi, and Wii Fit Trainer, and Dair is on Cloud, but as a much, much better move. Nair is weird, but I guess you could say a single-hit version would be on Ness and Peach since the only other similar Nair is Zelda's who has better auto-cancel windows, but twice the startup and worse landing lag.

Dair???

Dairs in general are bad moves in Smash 4... There's a reason why select Dairs are so much better; there's larger gap between good and bad Dairs compared to other moves. About 20-ish characters have good Dairs while the rest are pretty lackluster. In regards to Falco, it would be a good move if it wasn't frame 16. Example: Cloud's Dair which is basically a "balanced" Melee Falco Dair. By that, I mean it's slower, frame 11 to Melee Falco's 5, and Cloud being a low jumper sort of helps out to not break it. As broken as Brawl Falco was, Brawl Falco's Dair had the right idea in terms of damage for his Dair, 10% clean and 8% late, but landing lag was insane at 12, so auto-cancel or not, Brawl Falco's not going to really care. Melee Falco's landing lag would be more reasonable at 18, but like Brawl, its startup of 5 wasn't nor was its damage of 12% clean. Mix those up, so a Dair that only does 10% maximum for a clean hit and had 18 frames of landing lag instead of Smash 4's 21 with maybe being frame 11 would turn it into a good move... but the other Dairs... Maybe it shouldn't spike at all... Wishes asides, Falco's Dair is his "worse" aerial, but relative to other Dairs, it's average at best with its most redeeming qualities being that it has a lingering hitbox, 11 frames, and it has 4 frames to spike while others usually have 2 to 3.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Wishes asides, Falco's Dair is his "worse" aerial, but relative to other Dairs, it's average at best with its most redeeming qualities being that it has a lingering hitbox, 11 frames, and it has 4 frames to spike while others usually have 2 to 3.

I was trying to hint that it's not a Top 10 Dair.

 

[Ffamran]

I was trying to hint that it's not a Top 10 Dair.

I know; I'm explaining why it's a bad move in Falco's moveset. Also, I don't think LightLV was implying all of his aerials were top 10.

 

[aεrgiα]

You and I are arguing different things. I'm talking about Bowser/Zelda's Up-B in the place of a Top 10 list, not vs. Mario's.

What I meant by "forget mario's Up-B entirely" is that as far as I'm concerned, I have discussed why I think Mario's Up-B has a place there. So we can stop discussing its strengths and weaknesses and talk about whether Bowser's or Zelda's Up-B is Top 10.




Little things matter. Being less screwed is better.

I wasn't taking about Mario vs Bowser. I meant in the context of Top 10 Up-Bs.




The argument is about whether Bowser's Up-B is a top 10 Up-B. And for its' type (i.e. a powerful OOS), it's not top 10 material in my opinion. That's all. I didn't talk about Mario's/Doc's Up-B specifically here.

I do agree that Zelda's up-B has more things going for it than Bowser's.



Dair???

see but im disagreeing and saying why i dont think marios up b has a place there and why zeldas and bowser could take his place(puting them in the top 10), we cant stop discussing its strengths and weaknesses if we have to compare it to other moves of the same category, which is what you have to do if you want to make a top 10 list.

ill make it simple and say, while i think bowsers up b is better than marios i dont think its top 10 worthy but thats opinion, so i think we can both at least agree to that(to the fact that its not top 10 worthy) otherwise this is just going to keep going in circles

i know i said that we should stop, but i want to clarify what i meant; while i do agree that little things matter, what i meant with it is that realistically your eating the same punish for whiffing bowsers up b as you are for whiffing marios up b, so a grab, dash attack or a fast aerial and possibly a jump canceled usmash.

i understand what you meant after your clarification last post, but i think thats a very unfair comparison since no one can compare to those 2 up bs, and i do think zeldas especially(and even bowsers) can still compete with the other up bs...

my argument was that if you think marios up b is top 10, then bowsers is too. the thing is doc and (especially) mario are arguably the worst of the top 10 so if you say its not top 10 then i instantly compare it to the worst move of that category, which is marios, since by saying its not top 10, you are also saying its worse than any move in the top 10 (including the worst one)

we can definitely agree on that, and i think zeldas up b should be on this list :/

 

[Conn1496]

Just from looking at the current top 10s, first up, I have no idea why Robin's Jab is on there. lol Someone feel free to educate me on that.

As for what I think are the best moves (Note that I'm not taking into consideration the character's other tools so this is based on the moves' own merits.) (and keep in mind I'm a dirty casual here):
Jab: (lol Frame 1)
Dash: (Just pretty damn safe, and fast enough to be a combo starter.)
F-tilt: (F-tilt, F-tilt, F-tilt, F-tilt, F-tilt, F-tilt, F-tilt, F-tilt...)
U-tilt: (I think this deserves mention because of the sheer amount of hitstun this thing has and the range it sends them up. Great kill and combo set-up (-and in some cases, outright kill combos) IMO, despite it's lack of range, etc.)
D-tilt: (Good range, decent combo set-up. Not many other moves I can think of are this safe when spaced right.)

F-Smash: (Basically 3 moves in 1, super armor, early kills. Gross.)
U-Smash: (Mostly for the fact it kills early, hits really high, and is particularly safe.)
D-Smash: (It makes it a disgusting edgeguard (Hits low!). -it's not particularly weak either. That's my main reason for choosing it.)

N-air: (Fast, hits upwards. I'm not too sure on this one personally, but if not Luigi, it's almost certainly another fast n-air like Villager's.)
F-air: (Just because it's so damn irritatingly good for spacing.)
B-air: (Powerful, fast, good kill move. I don't really like Ike, and even I like this move.)
U-air: (The kill power and range on this is pretty crazy.)
D-air: (In terms of raw power, this move is disgusting.)
Z-air: I don't think Z-airs are particularly good, regardless. lol If one was needed, or . I'm not too knowledgeable.

Neutral-B: (No. Just please no Wario Chomping. Lingering grabs, no thanks.)
Side-B: (It just takes up so much damn room. lol)
Up-B: (Really underrated IMO. Not a kill move or anything. But decent recovery potential, really good at punishing rolls, good OoS and fast.)
Down-B: (As much as I hate to admit it, when used properly, banana peels can outright win games.)

Grabs: I have no idea about grab ranges etc., likely unanimous anyway. I'm gonna skip over this one. lol

F-throw: (Cargo throws pls.)
B-throw: (Okay.)
U-throw: (lol patch 1.1.3)
D-throw: (Just a good combo starter. Can combo into ground moves at early %s. Nothing to particularly contest this one IMO.)
Pummel: (Shoutouts to 's pummel from Brawl. RIP in pepperonis, you will be missed.)

Bonus round!
Down taunt!: ()

 

[aεrgiα]

Just from looking at the current top 10s, first up, I have no idea why Robin's Jab is on there. lol Someone feel free to educate me on that.

As for what I think are the best moves (Note that I'm not taking into consideration the character's other tools so this is based on the moves' own merits.) (and keep in mind I'm a dirty casual here):
Jab: (lol Frame 1)
Dash: (Just pretty damn safe, and fast enough to be a combo starter.)
F-tilt: (F-tilt, F-tilt, F-tilt, F-tilt, F-tilt, F-tilt, F-tilt, F-tilt...)
U-tilt: (I think this deserves mention because of the sheer amount of hitstun this thing has and the range it sends them up. Great kill and combo set-up (-and in some cases, outright kill combos) IMO, despite it's lack of range, etc.)
D-tilt: (Good range, decent combo set-up. Not many other moves I can think of are this safe when spaced right.)

F-Smash: (Basically 3 moves in 1, super armor, early kills. Gross.)
U-Smash: (Mostly for the fact it kills early, hits really high, and is particularly safe.)
D-Smash: (It makes it a disgusting edgeguard (Hits low!). -it's not particularly weak either. That's my main reason for choosing it.)

N-air: (Fast, hits upwards. I'm not too sure on this one personally, but if not Luigi, it's almost certainly another fast n-air like Villager's.)
F-air: (Just because it's so damn irritatingly good for spacing.)
B-air: (Powerful, fast, good kill move. I don't really like Ike, and even I like this move.)
U-air: (The kill power and range on this is pretty crazy.)
D-air: (In terms of raw power, this move is disgusting.)
Z-air: I don't think Z-airs are particularly good, regardless. lol If one was needed, or . I'm not too knowledgeable.

Neutral-B: (No. Just please no Wario Chomping. Lingering grabs, no thanks.)
Side-B: (It just takes up so much damn room. lol)
Up-B: (Really underrated IMO. Not a kill move or anything. But decent recovery potential, really good at punishing rolls, good OoS and fast.)
Down-B: (As much as I hate to admit it, when used properly, banana peels can outright win games.)

Grabs: I have no idea about grab ranges etc., likely unanimous anyway. I'm gonna skip over this one. lol

F-throw: (Cargo throws pls.)
B-throw: (Okay.)
U-throw: (lol patch 1.1.3)
D-throw: (Just a good combo starter. Can combo into ground moves at early %s. Nothing to particularly contest this one IMO.)
Pummel: (Shoutouts to 's pummel from Brawl. RIP in pepperonis, you will be missed.)

Bonus round!
Down taunt!: ()

while i dont agree with everything on this list it look pretty solid to me overall, just want to say, zairs can be really good, i just think they are often underutilised (imo samus has the best one, followed by zss) samus for example loves her zair, its a great spacing tool and some characters can really struggle dealing with it.

as for taunt, dededes crouch is easily the best taunt

 

[Conn1496]

while i dont agree with everything on this list it look pretty solid to me overall, just want to say, zairs can be really good, i just think they are often underutilised (imo samus has the best one, followed by zss) samus for example loves her zair, its a great spacing tool and some characters can really struggle dealing with it.

as for taunt, dededes crouch is easily the best taunt

I think they can be used well, especially in the case of Link's Z-air-to-grab deal since his is generally the fastest. But yeah, Samus' is pretty damn good and benefiets her, I just think that air tethers aren't particularly strong for anyone's game other than Samus and Link - even ZSS's I find is near-completely unseen.

I just think overall, between choosing a clean Z-drop and a Z-air attack/recovery, a clean Z-drop is usually the better option since any character with a held projectile now has to expend a little more effort protecting it just in case that Z-drop leads into a nasty free hit, which I've actually had happen both ways on a few occasions. (Unless there's a way tether chars can Z-drop without tethering, then forget literally every argument I've made. lol)

Also, excuse me!? Dedede's crouch doesn't attack, we're talking attacks here. Gawsh.