Best moves of each type

[Megamang]

Pika pika bruh

 

[Kaladin]

Pika pika bruh

The hitbox is that big? o.o

 

[Kofu]

It's pretty damn strong and the endlag is minimal. More than can be said for some other forward smashes.

Its low endlag I'll give you, but it's not particularly strong for FSmashes (probably average to slightly weak honestly), not helped by its launch angle which tends to launch to the furthest corner of the screen. It requires a sweetspot to even be worth anything KO-wise and is pretty slow (frame 17) and it lost its lingering hitbox from Brawl. It has a few good things going for it, mainly a substantial disjoint (par for the course for Game & Watch though) and occasional use as an anti-air. While I believe it has the greatest horizontal reach of all his attacks barring Oil Panic it's widely considered one of his worst moves and the rest of his moves are definitely not THAT good.

Little Mac, Marth, Olimar, Pikachu, Villager, Zelda, Gunner, Lucina, Meta Knight, and ROB's forward smashes all feel objectively better than Game & Watch's to me. Rosalina, Sheik, ZSS, Bowser Jr., Link, Toon Link, Captain Falcon, Fox, and Roy all seem to have better forward smashes too. Honestly, I think Pikachu's FSmash is what Game & Watch's should be.

 

[Molk]

On the topic of G&W, i feel like his Up Smash might deserve a mention as one of the best in the game. Aside from the generous amount of invincibility frames that pretty much everyone who's seen G&W in action is familiar with (for exact numbers, G&W's upper body has invincibility from frame 4 to frame 25) It also happens to be one of the strongest Usmashes in the game in terms of knockback (it KOs Mario from at 96% in training mode on FD, only a fair few character can boast their Up Smash KOing earlier than that). Mr. Game and Watch's Up Smash also has an extremely low amount of endlag (although the startup is admittedly noticeable), having a lower amount of endlag than even Meta Knight's Forward Smash, this makes it quite hard to punish on whiff, and when combined with its shieldstun and shield pushback, quite safe on shield as well. Lastly, Mr. Game and Watch's Up Smash is also a viable combo starter at low to low mid percents due to its high amount of hitstun, the angle it sends opponents, and the aforementioned extremely low amount of endlag, easily true comboing into Nair, Uair, and Up B for large amounts of damage, among other things.


Overall, i feel like Mr. Game and Watch's Usmash is an amazing move, and is definitely a viable contender for one of the best taking into account what i listed above, i understand if the sluggish startup is too much of a roadblock for it to be listed though.

 

[Megamang]

I had a much easier time hitting luma when i dashgrab. It appears to be way more difficult this patch too. The trick is to slide luma into the hitbox, and pummel at max speed. Pikas fthrow hurts it, uthrow thunder hits luma, and his bthrow rolls away from luma, so he can usually get a lot done from a grab.

 

[Planty]

An interesting tidbit about Luma is that after you grab Rosalina, if you wait a second, Luma will move BEHIND her. You can use this to knock Luma away if you have throw that has a hitbox. Mario, Doc, and Luigi in particular can take advantage of this. If they B-throw as soon as they get the grab, Luma will be sent behind them. If they delay the throw, Luma will be sent forward.

So when discussing a throw's effectiveness on Luma, always remember this behavior.

 

[Megamang]

Yes, this must be done to land the pummel. Im gonna go to the lab, this patch still has some luma mysteries.


Just tested with DB, i cant jab out from a pika rapidly pummeling. As you said, you delay pummel 1 to let luma slide backwards before mashin.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I'd rate Ganon's up-smash higher than a lot of those characters. Yoshi's is pretty good, but Ganon's is better imo.

 

[ARGHETH]

I'd rate Ganon's up-smash higher than a lot of those characters. Yoshi's is pretty good, but Ganon's is better imo.

There's two Docs in the OP, so Ganondorf can replace the second one. He's not going any higher than above Little Mac, though.

 

[Truth35777]

There's a disturbing lack of Rosalina's Down Smash in this thread.

The hitbox and FAF are both one frame earlier's than that of Little's Mac's, while just outranging it horizontally.

When paired with luma, the move has a unique ability of pulling foes in due to the reversed hitboxes of Rosalina's.

It's a fantastic GTFO move, and quite safe at max range.

Also, I really can't get behind ZSS's Down Smash being better than Little Mac's.
The move has incredible reward when it hits and is stupidly safe on shield, but the hitbox comes out on frame 20.

20.
That's quite slow no matter how you slice it.

 

[ARGHETH]

Also, I really can't get behind ZSS's Down Smash being better than Little Mac's.
The move has incredible reward when it hits and is stupidly safe on shield, but the hitbox comes out on frame 20.

20.
That's quite slow no matter how you slice it.

It also only has 18 frames of endlag...

 

[Megamang]

Utilized properly, her dsmash is more about release timings and traps... and ludicrous reward. Though the reward is partly related to zss, any character would get a smash which is high reward, and anyone with a spike could probably get some early kills from it.

 

[Trifroze]

I have to say, I didn't know Game & Watch's smashes were all super safe on shield. I knew of up smash before 1.1.1, but fsmash and even dsmash are also safe. You probably need to land the sweetspot for both, but the sweetspots are bigger than the sourspots and you automatically get them if you space even half-properly range wise. Might have to throw them all in there somewhere.

 

[Folie]

I have to say, I didn't know Game & Watch's smashes were all super safe on shield. I knew of up smash before 1.1.1, but fsmash and even dsmash are also safe. You probably need to land the sweetspot for both, but the sweetspots are bigger than the sourspots and you automatically get them if you space even half-properly range wise. Might have to throw them all in there somewhere.

despite being one of the more optimistic people about our character on the G&W subforum, I still will say that I think fsmash, and probably dsmash don't belong on this list.

First off, the sweetspots are definitely not bigger than the sourspots on fsmash, and that's not even mentioning the fact that fsmash has a blind spot/deadbox/whatever you guys call it (the thing that samus fsmash also has a problem with, though not as bad). I don't believe this is true for dsmash either, though the sourspots can be useful on it.

While it is true the sweetspots are safe on (non-perfect) shield and it's not hard to know when you can land them when you're used to them, this doesn't mean much considering both smashes have subpar/bad startup, which can make for easy perfect shielding. Simply put, they're not good or safe moves to throw out frequently or rely on.

By no means are they not good tools, the sweetspots can be devastating when landed, and the disjoints are nice, but their problems of bad/subpar startup and small sweetspots prevent them from being "best in the game" material imo

 

[Molk]

I also think G&W's Down Throw is a candidate for this list personally. It's an exceptionally good combo throw that can manage a wide range of pretty much guaranteed followups, starting at 0% and working all the way up to about ~130%, depending on the character. The sheer amount of damage you can get out of G&W's Dthrow combos (it's not hard at all to get 25-30% out of every single Down Throw you do, and it's possible to squeeze even more damage than that from my experience), plus the fact that Dthrow---->Uair is capable of killing during certain percent windows is enough to warrant consideration in my opinion.

 

[Trifroze]

despite being one of the more optimistic people about our character on the G&W subforum, I still will say that I think fsmash, and probably dsmash don't belong on this list.

First off, the sweetspots are definitely not bigger than the sourspots on fsmash, and that's not even mentioning the fact that fsmash has a blind spot/deadbox/whatever you guys call it (the thing that samus fsmash also has a problem with, though not as bad). I don't believe this is true for dsmash either, though the sourspots can be useful on it.

While it is true the sweetspots are safe on (non-perfect) shield and it's not hard to know when you can land them when you're used to them, this doesn't mean much considering both smashes have subpar/bad startup, which can make for easy perfect shielding. Simply put, they're not good or safe moves to throw out frequently or rely on.

By no means are they not good tools, the sweetspots can be devastating when landed, and the disjoints are nice, but their problems of bad/subpar startup and small sweetspots prevent them from being "best in the game" material imo

On dsmash the sweetspot is definitely considerably bigger than the sourspot, but on fsmash it's a bit smaller (the entire fire, but it reaches further than the graphics indicate). Still, it's the better part of the move, i.e. Marth spacing instead of Roy spacing. They're also average speed for smashes, except usmash is slow. They all also kill noticeably earlier than average smashes, especially dsmash, and because of the angle of fsmash, DI actually makes you die earlier to that (since then you just die vertically).

I don't doubt your notion that the moves aren't super good, but honestly very few fsmashes in the game are even usable, and the number is even lesser for dsmashes.

 

[Vyrnx]

Yoshi's uair should be on the list. I think it's the third fastest(?) uair at frame 5, kills really early, and can combo into itself/other stuff. It's definitely one of his more reliable kill moves and keeps people from challenging him from above.

And it doesn't matter that much, but Samus has a better zair than ZSS. Great range, extends really fast, eats through almost everything. It's far better at zoning than ZSS's zair, which imo makes it better than ZSS's despite her higher damage. It sets up tech chases, grab/dash attack mixups. Someone playing against Samus will probably worry about zair first, someone playing ZSS will most likely not consider her zair at all because it isn't a game changer. It's also the only zair that can singlehandedly shut several characters down. Most characters would probably prefer to have Samus' zair.

 

[Trifroze]

Yoshi's uair should be on the list. I think it's the third fastest(?) uair at frame 5, kills really early, and can combo into itself/other stuff. It's definitely one of his more reliable kill moves and keeps people from challenging him from above.

And it doesn't matter that much, but Samus has a better zair than ZSS. Great range, extends really fast, eats through almost everything. It's far better at zoning than ZSS's zair, which imo makes it better than ZSS's despite her higher damage. It sets up tech chases, grab/dash attack mixups. Someone playing against Samus will probably worry about zair first, someone playing ZSS will most likely not consider her zair at all because it isn't a game changer. It's also the only zair that can singlehandedly shut several characters down. Most characters would probably prefer to have Samus' zair.

Samus' may be better overall, but ZSS' zair sets up for things just as much as Samus' does. You can combo it into dash attack, grab, and even up b and you could with Samus as well if she ran as fast as ZSS does. They have the same landing lag and speed and the only differences are that ZSS' zair has a bit less range and a bit more damage, although Samus' zair is much easier to sweetspot. I'd be willing to say that Samus' range and ability to sweetspot for 4% without hitting with it from max range gives it more utility. A big reason why I put ZSS first though is that the recovery range on her zair is completely bonkers, while Samus' zair is a pretty noticeable second place at that. Often when I've played ZSS and switch to Samus I end up forgetting that you can't tether from as far away, stall for too long offstage and then die. I'll still change Samus to first though.

E: Regarding their differences though it's also worth noting that Samus' zair dies to platforms for some reason, and ZSS' can kill offstage which may be a considerable thing once people become better at spacing with it.

 

[Sykkamorre]

GANONDORF's usmash is ridiculously good.

Technically overall it's the fastest smash in the game, safe on shield, big damage, great shield damage, disjointed AND has possibly the daftest IASA frames on any move in smash.

Facts bruh.

 

[Trifroze]

It's pretty good, but it's not the fastest. All the "Mario up smashes" have less overall frames, and Luigi's dsmash has even less than those, same with MK's. Then there's a bunch of smashes which are tied with Ganondorf's in overall duration, some of which have slightly more safety due to having more startup and thus less endlag. Ganondorf's up smash probably deserves a spot, it's just hard to look at it objectively when it's on such a slow character (it is quite punishable if whiffed).

 

[ARGHETH]

Technically overall it's the fastest smash in the game

Mario/Luigi/Doc Usmash?
Pit/D. Pit/ZSS/Olimar/MK/Luigi Dsmash?

 

[Sykkamorre]

Mario/Luigi/Doc Usmash?
Pit/D. Pit/ZSS/Olimar/MK/Luigi Dsmash?

From start to finish, including IASA frames it's the fastest.

Eg: you can initiate an action sooner after inputting usmash with ganon than any other smash. I'm not saying it comes out the fastest, that would be mad.

Edit: errr... my bad. I misread some info. Ignore me.

 

[Truth35777]

Utilized properly, her dsmash is more about release timings and traps... and ludicrous reward. Though the reward is partly related to zss, any character would get a smash which is high reward, and anyone with a spike could probably get some early kills from it.

I condede.
As solid as Mac's Down Smash is, having ZSS's smash in their kit would probably be more beneficial to most characters.

 

[Drift Wizard]

R.O.B.'s up air is essential on this list. I say it is better than Yoshi's, Fox's, Robin's, Samus', and probably Ness' with its combination of a fast move with a multi hit box and very early KO power, of which none of those other up airs have all those characteristics.

I also think Wii Fit Trainer's Neutral B should be on the list too. The 2% it heals for a full charge is a huge asset and makes up for the weaker KO power than Samus' and Mewtwo's.

 

[Vyrnx]

R.O.B.'s up air is essential on this list. I say it is better than Yoshi's, Fox's, Robin's, Samus', and probably Ness' with its combination of a fast move with a multi hit box and very early KO power, of which none of those other up airs have all those characteristics.

It's definitely not better than Ness', Robin's, or Yoshi's. His uair could be included but it is not better than those three. It might be about the same level as Samus' in a ranking. I don't know much about Fox's except its startup isn't too good.

Edit: ROB's nair on the other hand is an easy contender for the nair list.

 

[Metalbro]

Seeing DKs DSmash in the list surprises me a bit. I rarely use it out of covering ledge options. Other than that I can't see much more uses of it. Anyone care to educate me on why it's seen as good?

 

[Trifroze]

If there's something that doesn't make much sense, it's probably because I had to put something as a placeholder and those popped into my mind.

 

[Gardex]

ROB's dthrow is easily one of the best in the game

 

[Tinkerer]

Pretty surprised there's no Peach's fair here, it's a really versatile kill and damaging move.

 

[Kamtheman56]

I'd just like to say that I personally feel Mewtwo's fthrow could go on the list due to the fact of it being tied with Ganondorf and Max Aura Lucario for damage being a total of 13%. While also providing excellent spacing and getting the opponent off of you allowing stage control and racking up damage along with any pummels that were done before hand. However that doesn't mean the move is without it's flaws since it can be reflected due to it's multi hit nature of the move seeing as how it's multiple Shadow Balls getting launched at the opponent. While this move is pretty essential for Mewtwo for spacing and damage racking I wouldn't say that doesn't mean it's not qualified for being on the list.

 

[Planty]

I'd just like to say that I personally feel Mewtwo's fthrow could go on the list due to the fact of it being tied with Ganondorf and Max Aura Lucario for damage being a total of 13%. While also providing excellent spacing and getting the opponent off of you allowing stage control and racking up damage along with any pummels that were done before hand. However that doesn't mean the move is without it's flaws since it can be reflected due to it's multi hit nature of the move seeing as how it's multiple Shadow Balls getting launched at the opponent. While this move is pretty essential for Mewtwo for spacing and damage racking I wouldn't say that doesn't mean it's not qualified for being on the list.

I'm curious as to how you space with a throw in a 1v1 environment. I'm not sure if you understand what a spacing tool is. And how exactly does it get reflected?

 

[Browny]

Because Mewtwo wants to play at range, not cqc. His fthrow has the purpose of having high base knockback so he can have time to charge shadowball.

 

[Browny]

Just a few things to nitpick;

Up smash:

Little Macs usmash I feel doesnt belong among this crowd. Sure its strong but plenty of characters can usmashes only a little less powerful without requiring such a precise hitbox to actually get the strong hit. I mean, compare ROBs to Macs... huge difference

Neutral air:
Forward air:
Back air:
Up air:
Down air:

Villager should be each category here theres no reason his fair would be, but not his bair while losing to the likes of Ness. Same with his uair which is amazing.

Forward throw:
Back throw:
Up throw:
Down throw:
Pummel:

Mewtwo easily deserves a spot in the top fthrow along with ganon. I dont see how pit or lucas deserve a spot there, while mewtwo and ganon have the highest damaging fthrows, and none of them combo anyway. And Ikes dthrow? His uthrow is the combo throw.

Similarly with backthrow, since backthrows are almost always kill moves or to put a lot of distance between the enemy, the order of strength goes

1: Ness
2: Lucas
3: Villager
4: Mewtwo
5: Toon link

And then DK, Mario etc start to KO a bit later than that.

 

[Masonomace]

I'm curious as to how you space with a throw in a 1v1 environment. I'm not sure if you understand what a spacing tool is. And how exactly does it get reflected?

Each shadow ball fired in Mewtwo's Fthrow is an energy projectile that can be reflected or absorbed, which includes getting pocketed by Villager & filling Game & Watch's Bucket.

Similarly with backthrow, since backthrows are almost always kill moves or to put a lot of distance between the enemy, the order of strength goes

1: Ness
2: Lucas
3: Villager
4: Mewtwo
5: Toon link

And then DK, Mario etc start to KO a bit later than that.

To add to this, I went to training mode & tested kill percentages. Monado Smash art augments Shulk's Bthrow killing Mario at 124% while Toon Link's Bthrow kills at 129%, Mewtwo's Bthrow kills at 127%, Villager's Bthrow kills at 125%, Lucas' Bthrow kills at 124%, & Ness' Bthrow kills at 96%. So while the art only lasts for 16 seconds aka 960 frames, it's knockback multiplier helps it rival the second strongest Bthrow.

 

[zeldasmash]

Can i nominate Link's dthrow as one of the best in the game? Can lead into combos that can rack some serious damage, can lead into 50/50's, can potentially lead into kills especially in platform stages and with how Link's grab is, it's one of the more useful throws in the game imo.

Also for Usmash, Ganondorf has easily one of the best in the game. Decently fast, is safe, has plenty of IASA frames, has range and can kill extremely early. I could nominate Mewtwo for Usmash or even Dsmash but i don't think i should.

 

[Browny]

Ganons usmash definitely feels better than Macs at least. also +1 to Links dthrow, especially over falcons.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Mii Gunner's forward air is one of the best forward aerials in the game. It allows gunner to gundash/plasma dash (there are two threads on this in the mii gunner forum, and each one uses a different name for the technique). This technique gives a great burst of speed (equal in speed to a falcon kick) without any landing lag. It also combos into other moves (there is a true combo and follow up thread in the mii gunner forum that includes these combos). It is similar to villager's forward aerial only it is better because of the things I listed above, and gunner's forward aerial is transcendent.

 

[LozNerd]

I like Bair, and Fair. Also, has to be on the down-b list.

 

[Planty]

Because Mewtwo wants to play at range, not cqc. His fthrow has the purpose of having high base knockback so he can have time to charge shadowball.

That doesn't make it a spacing tool. It makes it a GTFO option from a grab. Spacing tools are things like Mewtwo's D-tilt; it's quick, safe, and long ranged.

Little Macs usmash I feel doesnt belong among this crowd. Sure its strong but plenty of characters can usmashes only a little less powerful without requiring such a precise hitbox to actually get the strong hit. I mean, compare ROBs to Macs... huge difference

Except Mac's weak U-smash is still super, duper, amazingly powerful. Sweetspot if you get it is stupidly strong, killing at ridiculously low %.

And super armor. It has super armor. It beats out everything in the game except other super armor or invincible moves. He actually takes no knockback. He will will win every single trade unless it's against TSRK or something. Why is this always forgotten?

 

[Masonomace]

May I nominate Shulk for pivot grab? Monado Speed augments Shulk's movement speed by so much that his pivot grab out of a dash or run almost travels half the distance of FD & can net grabs easily with it. Even if it whiffs because they spot-dodge, Shulk travels too far for them to punish anyhow.