Best (And Worst) Designed Characters.

[PillsBuryDopeBoy]

Why all the hate

Because reasons.

Having a neutral game that consists of almost exclusively one move is what makes her design ****ty and the fact that her combo game is also seriously indebted to that one move doesn't help. There's also the fact that she gets a free pass on needing combo DI because of how floaty, light, and small she is, and she gets a free pass on recovery against a huge portion of the cast. And she has like four moves that almost never see use. Fighting her is a game of attrition for single hit punishes hoping to optimize damage rather than positioning, hopefully leading to a vertical KO; it's almost the definition of boring.
It has nothing to do with how good Jiggs is or how salty people are about losing to her. She really is awfully designed.

''Truer words have never been spoken''

 

[Nixon Corral]

I think that one character they actually did a pretty good job of making useful is Yoshi. I'm impressed with that, even if he is still pretty gimpable.

I find myself skeptical about Wario's strengths (or lack thereof), but I think I just haven't spent enough time with him.

Edit: Oh, and Sonic's ground game improvements definitely warrant mention. Well, airgame too. They actually thought to, you know, give him kill moves.

 

[Deleted member]

Jigglypuff is actually one of the few aspects of Project M that I am seriously disappointed with. She was left the way she was bcuz Melee, even though her design is absolutely awful and boring and stupid, and even though it is completely within the PMBR's power to change her for the better. Go ahead and despise Zelda all you want, but the idea that anybody thinks Zelda's design could even compare to the awfulness that is Jigglypuff is hilarious to me.

And like DrinkingFood said, this has nothing to do with saltiness. If this was about saltiness, I would have taken the quickest route and gone straight to Fox or Falco.

 

[deadjames]

I think that one character they actually did a pretty good job of making useful is Yoshi. I'm impressed with that, even if he is still pretty gimpable.

I find myself skeptical about Wario's strengths (or lack thereof), but I think I just haven't spent enough time with him.

Edit: Oh, and Sonic's ground game improvements definitely warrant mention. Well, airgame too. They actually thought to, you know, give him kill moves.

Trust me Wario's amazing, also I feel that Yoshi's recovery is pretty underestimated, he's got an armored second jump and he can use rising aerials, down-b, and side-b as mixups he has some pretty creative options for recovering imo and a good Yoshi is not easy to gimp.

 

[The_NZA]

Jigglypuff is actually one of the few aspects of Project M that I am seriously disappointed with. She was left the way she was bcuz Melee, even though her design is absolutely awful and boring and stupid, and even though it is completely within the PMBR's power to change her for the better. Go ahead and despise Zelda all you want, but the idea that anybody thinks Zelda's design could even compare to the awfulness that is Jigglypuff is hilarious to me.

And like DrinkingFood said, this has nothing to do with saltiness. If this was about saltiness, I would have taken the quickest route and gone straight to Fox or Falco.

I would ALWAYS rather play against jigglypuff than Zelda.

The fact of the matteris, characters in smash are just as much defined by their mobility as their moves. Sure, when playing against Falco, I have to worry about his shine and dair but my game changes much more based on how fast and high he jumps and how fast he falls. Jiggs might be based on bairs, but its still an interesting and intense match in spacing when playing against her, and it exercises a different part of the brain that is pretty fun.

Zelda is just....ugh. strange invincibility and safeness, forces you to play her very un-fun game where you either get demolished (die at 60% to a fair or bair) or you destroy her (and she's a helpless floating plastic bag).

Against Jigglypuff, its a battle before a hit happens, and its a battle for each hit. You both are fighting to gain momentum in a match of fencing. Zelda was designed to negate momentum. I don't even think she "gets" momentum. She just sort of makes sure you have none and she wins.

 

[Deleted member]

Whatever you say dude. Jigglypuff is still the worst thing ever. My judgement is final.

 

[NWRL]

Jigglypuff is lame.

 

[Nixon Corral]

Trust me Wario's amazing, also I feel that Yoshi's recovery is pretty underestimated, he's got an armored second jump and he can use rising aerials, down-b, and side-b as mixups he has some pretty creative options for recovering imo and a good Yoshi is not easy to gimp.

Yeah, the armor was a really wonderful improvement. His recovery is definitely way better, but I think it may still warrant perhaps a bit more improvement (and I'm still not sure why they took out the little hop that up-b gives you).

What are Wario's strengths in PM? I know he's got good air control and decent tilts, but what are his best assets?

 

[Saito]

So Chrome has page 4 set to saying it has Malware....

Just throwing that out there.

 

[NWRL]

So Chrome has page 4 set to saying it has Malware....

Just throwing that out there.

False positive. It's from the Brawl Vault link.

 

[SixSaw]

Yeah, the armor was a really wonderful improvement. His recovery is definitely way better, but I think it may still warrant perhaps a bit more improvement (and I'm still not sure why they took out the little hop that up-b gives you).

What are Wario's strengths in PM? I know he's got good air control and decent tilts, but what are his best assets?

An air-grab. Great grab range. Great throws. Decent combo game. Ridiculous gimp/edgeguard game. A fast kill move that charges passively.

 

[deadjames]

Yeah, the armor was a really wonderful improvement. His recovery is definitely way better, but I think it may still warrant perhaps a bit more improvement (and I'm still not sure why they took out the little hop that up-b gives you).

What are Wario's strengths in PM? I know he's got good air control and decent tilts, but what are his best assets?

On top of what you mentioned his side-b is amazing for mixups and tech chases, he has really solid grab game, he has probably the fastest command grab in the game, he's one of the handful of characters that can DACUS, he has all kinds of assets. You should check out Reflex and Strong Bad to see the devastation a high level Wario can cause.

 

[Blade-Fox]

On top of what you mentioned his side-b is amazing for mixups and tech chases, he has really solid grab game, he has probably the fastest command grab in the game, he's one of the handful of characters that can DACUS, he has all kinds of assets. You should check out Reflex and Strong Bad to see the devastation a high level Wario can cause.

Wario's side-B is built for the destruction of Roy fast fallers..

 

[Lil Puddin]

Jigglypuff is actually one of the few aspects of Project M that I am seriously disappointed with. She was left the way she was bcuz Melee, even though her design is absolutely awful and boring and stupid, and even though it is completely within the PMBR's power to change her for the better. Go ahead and despise Zelda all you want, but the idea that anybody thinks Zelda's design could even compare to the awfulness that is Jigglypuff is hilarious to me.

And like DrinkingFood said, this has nothing to do with saltiness. If this was about saltiness, I would have taken the quickest route and gone straight to Fox or Falco.

You know the sad thing is, I forget Jiggly exists most of the time despite me loving her. She's just so. . . Blah. I thought P:M would change her super awesome since she has SO MANY FRICKEN THINGS TO USE. Then I upload 3.0 to use P:M for the first time, use her, and go "What. I'm not asking a question. Just what. Well, at least she's got fairy wings."

I assume the Zelda hate stems from her "unique" fighting style, which is not fighting at all. It seems out of place in a fast paced fighting game. She feeds off mistakes and enjoys playing Red Light/Green Light. She's not fighting, she's playing her own game. Aaaaand People usually want to play P:M or Brawl games, not Zelda's game.

Back to Jigs, she just needs a few move changes. Her aerial game is pretty decent, but that's ALL SHE HAS. She's light as a fart and has power that's equally as disappointing - not to mention it leaves a lingering bad smell that makes your eyes water. Rest doesn't make sense, nor has it ever made sense. Sing has always been worthless; changing it into a projectile of sorts that deals no damage might help it out A LOT. Finally, her ground game is dangerous. . . To her.

She has a PLETHORA of other possible attacks to utilize in places of lame ones. She's a normal/fairy type and is a balloon. You have so much to choose from, so there's is absolutely no excuse to just use generic kicks with her outrageously huge feet - which by the way, Jigs does not even learn any kicks (except mega kick in gen 1 but that's 1 kick vs 8+ punches/slaps and 20+ other attacks). She learns hand/head attacks, roll attacks, sound attacks, elemental attacks, and multiple utility moves. So much to choose from and the original SSB teams just gave her. . . Mostly kicks. Let's list them from the canon Pokemon world to help folks out! All caps = very possible moves that aren't outrageous and would be easy to translate from the Pokemon world to the SSB world.

The attacks she could potentially use (excluding gen 1/2):
WAKE-UP SLAP (taunt pls), Power-up Punch, Focus Punch, Drain Punch, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Fire Punch, Icy Wind, Knock Off, Natural Gift, Mudslap, Secret Power, Hidden Power, Water Pulse, Shockwave, Headbutt, Punishment, Last Resort, DISARMING VOICE***, Feint Attack, Covet, Strength, DAZZLING GLEAM, WILD CHARGE, Grass Knot, Charge Beam, HYPER VOICE***, Retaliate, Incinerate, (Gyroball = Rollout as far as brawl is concerned), Facade, Fireblast, Flamethrower, BRICK BREAK, Shadow Ball, Psychic, Dig, Return, Thunderbolt, Thunder, Solarbeam, FRUSTRATION, RETURN, Ice Beam, Blizzard, DOUBLE-EDGE, BODY SLAM

Possible utility moves (excluding gen 1/2):
MAGIC COAT#, DEFENSE CURL#, Disable, Play Nice, Mimic, Toxic, Sunny Day, REFLECT#, LIGHT SCREEN#, PROTECT#, SAFEGUARD#, Double Team, Attract, FLASH, THUNDER WAVE, Swagger, Sleep Talk, SUBSTITUTE(?)#, Confide, Captivate, GRAVITY (lol downward spikes), Heal Pulse, Misty Terrain, PERISH SONG Sleep Talk, Wish, Copycat, Work Up, HEAL BELL!!!, Helping Hand, Pain Split, Recycle, Roleplay, Snatch, ENDURE#, ENDEAVOR#

#She has no way to defend herself from projectiles and she has no ranged attacks (she barely has range in general) to use as offensive retaliation. Also, she is the lightest character so sending her flying at 60% is easier than it sounds. She kind of needs some form of protection. BADLY. All of these things could be used nicely to do something about it. Lessen flinch/damage for a short time, charge up a substitute and the next hit = she gains damage but is not sent flying (uses "HP" to make the substitute), Magic Coat to reflect any projectile that hits her, etc.

!!!Watching her jingle a little bell repeatedly to slowly gain health would so be too amazing. Maybe even make it a taunt that just recovers a random 3-6% and if someone gets close to her bell she gains the % and also randomly damages the person for 3-6% (equal to whatever she recovered).

***She is a balloon who fills up on a lot of air and is known to sing/screech. No more needs to be said. When translated to the Brawl universe, they would all easily be directional attacks. So they are basically designed to be a smash. Down smash = she spins around extremely fast while screeching like a banshee, side smash = screech like a banshee. I'd imagine it'd push someone away just a bit but have high flinch for a follow up. It could also be a tilt attack, but sucking in air to charge up and then going AUEAUEAUEAUEAUEAUE makes more sense as a smash attack.

I have more possible ideas but 1) opinions on why it'd be good and 2) ALL OF THAT TYPING would be better served in a Jiggly thread.

 

[OrangeSodaGuy]

What if we made a tier list for the general consensus on how well the characters are all designed?

I don't know enough to be able to rank everyone myself, and I could be wrong on a few of these placements. Just going by the trends I've been noticing here...


Top (almost universally loved):








high (well liked)









Mid (mixed opinions):










low (seen as flawed):







rock bottom (widely disliked):


This is just what I've been noticing through skimming the opinions in this thread.

I know that certain characters like, , , , , and several others haven't been discussed a whole lot either.

How would you guys tier the characters in terms of how well they're designed?

 

[&Y_]

I assume the Zelda hate stems from her "unique" fighting style, which is not fighting at all. It seems out of place in a fast paced fighting game. She feeds off mistakes and enjoys playing Red Light/Green Light. She's not fighting, she's playing her own game. Aaaaand People usually want to play P:M or Brawl games, not Zelda's game.

I feel like this sums up every problem I have with Zelda. She's not broken or underpowered, she just doesn't feel like smash.

 

[Nixon Corral]

I know that certain characters like, , , , , and several others haven't been discussed a whole lot either.

I'm not as keen on the others, but I think Luigi plays a lot like melee. I like the way they changed Green Missile (flash on misfire, misfire is rarely suicide). Plus, he got back his solid aerials.

Mewtwo, from what I've seen of him, seems a lot more mobile than he was in Melee, which is certainly a boon.

 

[Rᴏb]

I know that certain characters like, , , , , and several others haven't been discussed a whole lot either.

I think all of those characters except G&W are not fun at all to play against. Sheik is Sheik, Luigi is janky, Samus is campy and Mewtwo has one of the safest (if not the safest) recoveries in the game. Despite this, I wouldn't say any of them have a bad design, but Mewtwo is pushing it.

 

[deadjames]

I'm not as keen on the others, but I think Luigi plays a lot like melee. I like the way they changed Green Missile (flash on misfire, misfire is rarely suicide). Plus, he got back his solid aerials.

Mewtwo, from what I've seen of him, seems a lot more mobile than he was in Melee, which is certainly a boon.

Imo, Luigi's most important buff is that he no longer has to charge cyclone to use it for recovery, everything else is just icing on the cake.

 

[&Y_]

I know that certain characters like, , , , , and several others haven't been discussed a whole lot either.

How would you guys tier the characters in terms of how well they're designed?

There's no way Sheik can be changed at this point, so discussing her is kinda pointless. She's not poorly designed, just very good and boring at the same time.

Luigi is really cool. He's got a reasonable combo game, and the Misfire changes are nice. Definitely feels like Luigi should in my opinion.

Don't know how I feel about Samus or Mewtwo. I don't really enjoy playing as them but don't hate playing against them. Mewtwo's float is kinda janky, but not in a bad way. Ice mode Samus is just kinda there. I do like the improved super wavedash.

This is a bit biased but Game and Watch is awesome. He's got a killer combo game that works really well with his bacon projectile. He can play more defensively, or really aggro. He's got interesting landed aerial hitboxes and a killer Dacus. Great character that people don't give enough respect.

 

[Shell]

lol how can something be janky in a not bad way?

 

[Lil Puddin]

lol how can something be janky in a not bad way?

Feels wrong or bad without being unfair, but any other option would feel worse. Something can be awful and still be the best out of all the possibilities. <<;

 

[Nixon Corral]

lol how can something be janky in a not bad way?

I think Melee itself is quite janky (wavedashing, moonwalking, numerous glitches), but I don't think it makes it a bad game. In fact, I think it constitutes part of its character.

 

[Daftatt]

I know that certain characters like, , , , , and several others haven't been discussed a whole lot either.

How would you guys tier the characters in terms of how well they're designed?

Mewtwo is the definition of cool, once you learn how to play him, teleport combos are better than sex.
I just don't like that samus is floaty, sheik I think is perfect, luigi is also great. G&W is the bee's knees.

As for jiggs, they need to not have her go into special fall after rollout. It was actually useful in brawl and I don't know why they changed it back in P:M. Also, just freaking replace sing with something, ANYTHING. Making sing's sleep effective would be kind of cheap, just give jiggs anything please, maybe a gentle push move from sing instead (ivy has a push in the form of her neutral B). Jiggs could whip out the push to keep people off her, could be neat.

 

[Paradoxium]

Mewtwo is the definition of cool, once you learn how to play him, teleport combos are better than sex.

Um I didn't say any that stuff dude, and sex is way better than teleport combo's...

But it doesn't really matter which is better because sex and teleport combos are so good you might as well just do them at the same time

 

[Daftatt]

Um I didn't say any that stuff dude, and sex is way better than teleport combo's...

But it doesn't really matter which is better because sex and teleport combos are so good you might as well just do them at the same time

lol, somehow my reply button messed up.

my thoughts on mewtwo summed up in two pictures

 

[Dillo64]

There is only one character that comes to mind for worst design:

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Fox guys, it was Fox.
It says it in my signature for chrissake.
I don't know what you expected.

 

[xXDarkRisingXx]

Agree

There is only one character that comes to mind for worst design:

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Fox guys, it was Fox.
It says it in my signature for chrissake.
I don't know what you expected.

 

[Deleted member]

for a first try, samus is absolutely flawless.

10/10

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

for a first try, samus is absolutely flawless.

10/10

... Sarcasm?

I genuinely can't tell, I don't have issues with Samus' design personally.

 

[otter]

... Sarcasm?

I genuinely can't tell, I don't have issues with Samus' design personally.

He wouldn't have said "for a first try" if he was being sarcastic.

Its also funny all these butthurt brawl players who have never seen Jigglypuff be played before.

 

[andalsoandy]

I like Jigglypuff kept simple.

Just sayin'.

 

[Daftatt]

He wouldn't have said "for a first try" if he was being sarcastic.

Its also funny all these butthurt brawl players who have never seen Jigglypuff be played before.

I'm sorry, but that's quite an assumption, I've watched literally hundreds of jigglypuff melee matches. As could have anyone else

 

[Lil Puddin]

He wouldn't have said "for a first try" if he was being sarcastic.

Its also funny all these butthurt brawl players who have never seen Jigglypuff be played before.

She's boring and bland - that seems to be some of the problem. She has great aerial game, nobody's denying she can be good. Though she has no way to retaliate against good ranged characters, whether it be projectiles or just long reach. The sing thing is pretty annoying too, though it leads into a guaranteed rest if you actually manage to land sing.

I like Jigglypuff kept simple.

Just sayin'.

Simple is OK as long as it's efficient.

 

[roxolid]

I'm all for Marth. An extremely solid character in PM, I am glad to be able to say, and a fun one to combo with.

 

[Eisen]

Top Tier/Best designs:

Wolf is top because he's a Brawl newcomer, had to establish an identity as a spacie but NOT Fox or Falco, yet remains one of the most dynamic and fun characters to play/face.
Marth, even though I think he's pretty standard, is "elegant" as was mentioned previously. Like a Chinese proverb (cd)
Solid moveset with some pronounced characteristics
Incredible potential locked away in a lot of tech skill; perhaps the most versatile character imo, but people debate his validity a lot, which kind of pisses me off honestly. Just don't change this character aside from possible engine adjustment compensations and he'll be perfect.
Just started messing with her the other day and I had to move her up in my personal favorites list because she's so much damn FUN.
A blast to play as and watch. His momentum play is awe-inspiring.
One of the most wonky characters also has a lot of tools. Naturally, weird characters are usually pretty fun to play/watch.
Pit was unique already in Brawl; they just made him better in P:M. Also, controllable arrows are literally in my top 10 favorite moves list.
Despite some apparent controversy, I think Link is REALLY solid in this game, but like in a lot of cases he's going to take some time to learn to beat. Literally my worst matchup but I can't help but speak honestly when I say I think he's perfect where he is, but he's just not a character with untouched potential.
Definitely the most interesting of the P:M-ified Melee newcomers. Dsmash and Stitchface give her bad rep though.
Peach + more freedom + Teleport shenanigans + Psychic godliness = awesome.
Has insane combos creating a bridge in the mind between Smash and traditional fighters.
Falcon is pretty nuanced and deserves a medal for it, despite being debatably less viable than desired.


A Tier/"Well-designed"

Really fun character, and while I don't think nair overcentralizes him, I definitely have little "expert opinion". Really solid character nonetheless.
Controversial, but I say that Zelda when mixed with Sheik covers a LOT of options. I don't know if I can say the same for anyone who won't utilize Sheik.
I have little ground to stand on for my opinion of Yoshi, but from everything I've seen he's a really unique addition to the cast, especially amongst those whom can DJC.
I hate this character. HAAAAATE this character. He's just so good. So so good.
I don't get why so few people play this character. If I weren't a Samus seconardy I'd probably try to second him or ZSS. Fun ground mobility.
Solid and unique, but my only gripe is a fickle one; he's just a little bit boring. Just a little. Personal opinions and all.
PMBR did a good job fixing him from Brawl, but honestly I haven't seen enough of him to be too sure.
Ground movement shenanigans like Squirtle, only... weirder? If that's possible.
Has a solid niche, and a huge toolkit, but sometimes I personally wonder if he has a little too many now in 3.0.
Seems fine and fits his role. I don't know how he stands in terms of his toolkit being good or bad.
Basically, the same way I feel about Snake.




Mid Tier/Average designs:

Lower because he's new and all, but he seems really good.
Eh. He's cool with me I guess? Naturally since he's new to PM, I know less about him and I don't know yet where he stands in comparison to Marth.
Just about everything Samus was meant to be. My only reasons for putting her this low are that I still have a lot to learn about her, and I'm not sure if she has flaws or if I just need to strategize better. Still really good. Ice beam addition makes me giggle like a little schoolgirl.
Hilarious and has a unique role, but most of the designing does go to Nintendo for this one. Not as... fun as Marth. I know that's a poor reason for putting two tiers between these characters but she doesn't strike me as up there.
Actually really interesting, for a semi-clone-ish-sorta-character. I'm a sucker for cute characters, but for some reason this guy annoys me in both PM and Brawl.
She's alright. Not bad in any means (and I like the 2.6 > 3.0 transition), I just feel kind of neutral towards her.
I have little opinion on DK. Seems like he fills the role he was meant to though.
Putting spacies dead in the middle of average; it's obvious they have some controversy surrounding them. They're definitely interesting, I'll say.
A good spacie is better than a good spacie with a hugely repetitive (at times) meta.
I think he's not going to change much, not does he need to, but something about him bothers me as a Bowser fan. He's way better in PM, but somehow I like him better in Melee. Anyway, personal opinions aside, I think he has a good niche as well, it's just not one I care for nor very interpretive.
So much controversy around this character. Honestly I never had the impression she was at spacie level, yet she's been nerfed and spacies haven't? I was confused by that. I don't get why Nayru land cancel was nerfed but they still left it ridiculously invincible.
Perhaps polarized a little, but also really good at what he does. Just needs more options/potency in the neutral maybe? I dunno, I've been surprised by this character the few times I've played him. I probably have some bias too because his timing is so off from Lucas' and I struggle with it.
Good offstage game, but I don't know what else he has/doesn't have. I'm also confused because he never struck me as bad, but maybe like low-mid tier or a little higher. I'd put him higher in this list but I know there's lots of disagreement with that
I know so little about ICs it's not even funny. Only reason putting them here is because I haven't heard yet that they're terrible.


Low Tier/Worst Designs:
Pika is.... an enigma honestly. Don't know tons about how he plays at high level.
Just kinda... there I guess? A glass cannon needs to be a real glass cannon, not like a plastic cannon that slowly melts itself. Fun and all, but... janky?
I think he needs a bit more movement shenanigans to complement his flame choke tech chase shenanigans.
I feel sorry for whomever has to make his design choices. I feel like he'll be the least changed Brawl character in terms of style, and that's a big reason he's so low.

 

[666blaziken]

He's got too much going for him and not enough weaknesses.
He is really hard to kill because he is a floaty heavyweight character and because his recovery options are crazy. 3 airdashes, a jump, a possible AGT, dair, bair and an airdodge is too much. He also has 2 longe-range projectiles that he can use while he is recovering with ease.

His laser takes ~10 seconds to fully charge and after he uses the fully charged laser he gets to use an even faster weaker one. His top is incredibly good for stage control and edgeguarding and he can constantly spew them out.

He can airdodge after using his recovery moves and his spot dodge is one of the best.

Most of his attacks come out pretty fast and don't suffer from too much endlag. I find this kind of strange coming from a heavy character.

His grab range and dash grab range are amazing and his dthrow is one of the best in the game. His uthrow is pretty damn good at killing too.

All of those are some good traits he has, but I think his airdash really puts him over the top. The mobility he gains from that thing is insane and completely transforms the character into something that changes how the game is played. Mobility is something that is really important in both melee and PM and the airdash completely ****s on pretty much all of the other character's mobility options. If he gets a good ground hit on an opponent, he can chase down that opponent from anywhere in the air and safely land an aerial. This airdash also INCREASES the strength of his aerial attacks, something I find so uneccesary because his aerials are already so good! His fair is fast and good for gimping, and his other aerials are all strong as ****.

One of his only weaknesses is how easy airdash->fair is to predict, but the problem here is how hard it is to actually punish because of how fast he can do it over and over again due to his fast fall speed. If you could provide me with more weaknesses I would greatly appreciate it.

It's strange, but on paper and like what you said is true. Jcaesar's gameplay matches exactly what you said. But the question is: why is Jcaesar the only person who uses him in tournies? It is because not that many people are good with ROB. I tried out ROB the other day, and I sucked with him. I think it's because every character has something better than ROB does. ROB feels neutral, and not many tournament players use him. I think it's because ROB doesn't have a specific mental game, and he is all over the place, so spreading out his attacks is what makes him good. If you use one mindset, chances are the opponent will predict it and destroy you. Jcaesar is good because he can be varied in his game.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

It's strange, but on paper and like what you said is true. Jcaesar's gameplay matches exactly what you said. But the question is: why is Jcaesar the only person who uses him in tournies? It is because not that many people are good with ROB. I tried out ROB the other day, and I sucked with him. I think it's because every character has something better than ROB does. ROB feels neutral, and not many tournament players use him. I think it's because ROB doesn't have a specific mental game, and he is all over the place, so spreading out his attacks is what makes him good. If you use one mindset, chances are the opponent will predict it and destroy you. Jcaesar is good because he can be varied in his game.

Oracle just got to top 8 in Apex with R.O.B.

 

[666blaziken]

Id say its due to pikachu not having a ton of flair, same complaints against olimar. I think they are both fine but Id like for the pikmin to get differentiated further and him to be able to have 6 again like brawl. This way olimar can zone with pikmin throw more effectively as he will only keep the pikmin he deems important to save while having many that he doesnt need to chuck, right now I feel his zoning is definitely not great.

The problem with olimar having 6 pikmin, is that he becomes more campy. He can risk less spamming forward b because he has a lot of pikmin. That is why they lowered the count. In my opinion, I think he needs more time in the meta before anyone makes decisions on what to do with him. His AI does some need stuff, so maybe follow that path first.

 

[Johnknight1]

ROB is like one of those characters few people are gonna use.

The real enigma is Game & Watch. I think his offense is fantastic, but his defensive barriers are really weird.

Honestly, I don't know what to think of Game & Watch, and he always seems to be the first character I forget about.

It's not because I don't like his design (I truthfully "like" all the characters), but just because something about it isn't as memorable as other characters.

I think Game & Watch could use that "one more thing" mentality to do something to him. I don't know what, but I feel I'm not far from it.

Lastly, why the Ness hate=??? I know his recovery game is bad, but other than that he's just an incredible character to fight against and with. God I wish a Ness like this was in Melee (and Brawl).

Edit: @ 666blaziken - I also think the Pikmin might cause frame rate issues with more than 4 with all the added content. Think about it: 6 Pikmin + 1 Olimar x 4 = 28 characters on screen. That's a lot for a console like the Wii to handle.