Best (And Worst) Designed Characters.

[NightShadow6]

Charizard while not being the greatest has a strange design that brings so much enjoyment.

Stupid speed for how good his survivability is. Amazing combo potential off of one hit against the majority of the cast.
He might get punished hard but his amazing recovery mitigates this a good deal.

 

[OrangeSodaGuy]

Best Sakurai designs (strictly Melee...)









All of these characters are ridiculously fun to play AND to watch-- capable of all sorts of nasty combos and kills. Seriously, getting an amazing kill with any of these characters...
Fox shinespike/Usmash
Falco/Marth/Ganon Dairs
Falcon's Knee
Doc cape kills/gimps
Samus charge shots, etc.

(Ness's hitbox shenanigans are also pretty sweet even though he's garbage tier)

Too good.

Best P:M designs?

I think they're all great, especially (the on-hit cancel idea is genius.)
, , , and are so much better designed here as opposed to the original game that it's not even funny.

could use a bit of spicing up, I suppose...

 

[batistabus]

Salty thread.

That being said, I hate fighting/watching Zelda more than anyone in the previous PM demos. I don't know what it is exactly, but so much about her seems to clash with the rest of the cast. Almost all of her moves are mega-multi hit or have super hit-lag (something relatively rare in the first place). Multihit moves that link together are fine (to an extent) when applied sparingly if they happen quickly (drills or multihit moves with two or three hits), but I think people get frustrated when they have to spend so much time getting hit by a single move (again, a good portion of her moves do this). I think that gripe is in the same vein of those who have a problem with Ivysaur, who has long-lasting multihit moves on his nair, f-tilt, and side-b. Moves like those allow the benefactor too much time to pause and think while at the same time really staggering the pace of the match, which isn't really a thing other characters have outside of throws. I've seen far too many people land forward-tilt into up-smash (what). That physics manipulation thing she can do with her b while getting knocked back is weird as hell, and is just another defensive option she has that doesn't apply to anyone else. Her dins fires seem to be used much more as camping/recovery/approach forcing tool than things to combo into, which is a shame since I thought that was one of the coolest things about PM when I first discovered it. She seems like she would be slow on paper, but she has a number of high damaging/high knockback moves that come out quickly, and her up b allows her to be wherever she wants whenever she wants with a hitbox to cover her, making her difficult to read both on stage and while recovering. She also has great grabs.

It really is a chore to fight her, and watching PM Zeldas beat TOP Melee players using some of the fastest characters like Fox and Falcon (who should be able to easily dispatch a slow, floaty character if speed is truly her weakness) is kind of troubling. Not to take anything away from Zelda players putting in work, but if Zhime or Salem take Apex (which is entirely possible, as both are great players that really get the most out of their characters), I fear the reaction may be similar to Wizzrobe's Apex showing of 2.5 Sonic.

TLDR, I'm not saying Zelda is necessarily poorly designed, but I just don't think her current design meshes well with the rest of the cast. As I see it, this isn't a matter of variety, it's a matter of incompatibility.

 

[otter]

I'm not saying Zelda is necessarily poorly designed, but I just don't think her current design meshes well with the rest of the cast. As I see it, this isn't a matter of variety, it's a matter of incompatibility.

The idea that a character can be fair but too unique seems to be exclusive and very common in the Smash community.

 

[ph00tbag]

Mostly sticking to characters that have seen massive redesigns
Best design:
Zelda/Snake/ROB - Not going to be one of my popular choices, but **** it. Smash NEEDED good characters that focused on indirect map control over movement and positioning. These three characters (I would include Ivy, but she's still got too much whiff advantage for me to include her) fill that abject void in Melee perfectly. My only real gripe out of the three of them is that Nayru's Love ought not to be land cancelable. Let it have its use as a defensive move. It doesn't need to be ubiquitous.
Wolf - As has been said, Wolf manages to feel like a space animal now, but with a unique flavor. Probably one of the best designed characters in the game.

Worst design:
Ness/Lucas - The Mother Kids are not space animals. They don't even need JC magnets. In fact, in both cases, the magnets allow a centralization around their JCability. Ness suffers in this regard, because now he has this up-close pressure option when his focus has always been on zoning and power. His gameplan is a mess now, because he has no real focus. Lucas is similar, but in his case, JC magnet makes his already stellar rushdown/pressure game obscenely safe and dangerous to his opponent. Lucas's PK Freeze is also a little bit too advantageous on hit. Thankfully, his nonsensical aerials from previous versions have been removed, but he's still really wacky.
Lucario - He's not even like a Street Fighter character--more like Marvel, and as I've said before, that is not an admirable goal to have. The on hit cancel system detracts from Lucario's otherwise really interesting fundamentals game (how many people know dair works as a poor man's FC, or that nair combos into itself at low percents for something like 24%?). It also forces his knockback values to reflect Brawl base and growth values (otherwise the on-hit system would be wasted), which makes all of his hits look extremely janky in a Melee-esque setting. I would have less of a problem if he had a suite of natural combos (jab combos, tilt combos, maybe even aerial natural combos), because that is actually a thing in SF, and I don't mind on-hit cancel into downb, but otherwise, the rest of his design is downright absurd.

 

[FireBall Stars]

It's interesting to see so many different opinions in a single thread. The variety makes me wonder about a few things.

 

[foxygrandpa]

all of the melee top tiers are pretty much perfect, except jiggs who's freaking annoying. ICs are fine now that wobblings gone.
Best pm designs I say would go to dk, mario, pit, roy, mewtwo, and lucas.
Worst designs-
Olimar- for his campy brawl playstyle and his upsmash out of shield. Its too helpful for him to do nothing but stay away.
Ganondorf- I actually play with him pretty frequently, but I think its kind of stupid how overcentralizing his ftilt is. Also, please change neutral b to make it likes marths brawl neutral b.
Snake- probably my least favorite character in this. I like that they were thinking creatively in terms of his design, but he has a few stupid aspects to him. Uthrow chain grab is stupidly broken. Since he's heavy, he can just crounch cancel into a grab (huge grab range), chain grab to high percents and then stick. In my honest opinion, uthrow should be a combo grab, but not into a stick. it would be cool if they gave him another more skill demanding set up for the c4. He should have to work harder to rack up percents, not just scare people into approaching and grabbing into a kill. I dont understand how someone could possibly justify taking out sheiks melee grab for being unfair and then adding in a grab like snakes. Also, up b is way cheap. too much damage and snake is too untouchable during it. I realize that snake has his weaknesses and bad matchups, but something about him needs to be fixed so that he takes more skill to play with.

 

[Nguz95]

DK is so one-dimensional it's not even funny. I have to say he's in my top 5 for bad design. His game plan is predictable, uncreative, and effective, which is the worst part.

 

[The_NZA]

Actually, I reform my worst design and give it to Zelda. It is ridiculous that she has some strange combos (dthrow, nair/nayrus love, to fair/bair)

Mostly sticking to characters that have seen massive redesigns
Best design:
Zelda/Snake/ROB - Not going to be one of my popular choices, but **** it. Smash NEEDED good characters that focused on indirect map control over movement and positioning. These three characters (I would include Ivy, but she's still got too much whiff advantage for me to include her) fill that abject void in Melee perfectly. My only real gripe out of the three of them is that Nayru's Love ought not to be land cancelable. Let it have its use as a defensive move. It doesn't need to be ubiquitous.
Wolf - As has been said, Wolf manages to feel like a space animal now, but with a unique flavor. Probably one of the best designed characters in the game.

Worst design:
Ness/Lucas - The Mother Kids are not space animals. They don't even need JC magnets. In fact, in both cases, the magnets allow a centralization around their JCability. Ness suffers in this regard, because now he has this up-close pressure option when his focus has always been on zoning and power. His gameplan is a mess now, because he has no real focus. Lucas is similar, but in his case, JC magnet makes his already stellar rushdown/pressure game obscenely safe and dangerous to his opponent. Lucas's PK Freeze is also a little bit too advantageous on hit. Thankfully, his nonsensical aerials from previous versions have been removed, but he's still really wacky.
Lucario - He's not even like a Street Fighter character--more like Marvel, and as I've said before, that is not an admirable goal to have. The on hit cancel system detracts from Lucario's otherwise really interesting fundamentals game (how many people know dair works as a poor man's FC, or that nair combos into itself at low percents for something like 24%?). It also forces his knockback values to reflect Brawl base and growth values (otherwise the on-hit system would be wasted), which makes all of his hits look extremely janky in a Melee-esque setting. I would have less of a problem if he had a suite of natural combos (jab combos, tilt combos, maybe even aerial natural combos), because that is actually a thing in SF, and I don't mind on-hit cancel into downb, but otherwise, the rest of his design is downright absurd.

Your the only person I know who doesn't like the new magnets which are so NOT overcentralizing.

Also, Zelda's Nayru Love is a gameplay decision I can NOT understand.

 

[Yurya]

Worst design:
Lucario - He's not even like a Street Fighter character--more like Marvel, and as I've said before, that is not an admirable goal to have. The on hit cancel system detracts from Lucario's otherwise really interesting fundamentals game (how many people know dair works as a poor man's FC, or that nair combos into itself at low percents for something like 24%?). It also forces his knockback values to reflect Brawl base and growth values (otherwise the on-hit system would be wasted), which makes all of his hits look extremely janky in a Melee-esque setting. I would have less of a problem if he had a suite of natural combos (jab combos, tilt combos, maybe even aerial natural combos), because that is actually a thing in SF, and I don't mind on-hit cancel into downb, but otherwise, the rest of his design is downright absurd.

I agree and if I may add I love his design outside of OHC's it is just a shame that I would have to learn an unwanted part to fully use him. If they really wanted a character that embodies that G&W is the best Smash character for that (not many like him as he is). Judgement balances the idea of 0-death combos as well.

 

[Deleted member]

I still laugh at people who complain about Nayru's Love.

I believe Zelda's old Din's fire was a single fireball that couldn't be clanked. It functioned the same way as one of her current dins, but you could only have one of them out at a time. Honestly that sounds pretty cool.

No, her Demo 1.0 Din's was faster, could be air dodged out of, and she could still have 3 of them out on the field at a time, but there was no lingering mine hitbox before the explosion.

 

[Nemiak temp]

Actually, I reform my worst design and give it to Zelda. It is ridiculous that she has some strange combos (dthrow, nair/nayrus love, to fair/bair)


Your the only person I know who doesn't like the new magnets which are so NOT overcentralizing.

Also, Zelda's Nayru Love is a gameplay decision I can NOT understand.

Lol someone played a good Zelda yesterday....Zelda is kind of dumb in certain regards but I think she is designed fairly well aside from the invincibility on startup of Neutral B. Invincibility and armor are both destroying this game. Zelda is very beatable as just about any character it's just a very frustrating matchup to learn because her punish game is bonkers and that's Shaun's best quality in his playing. He drops NO punish ever. I think it would benefit you a lot as a player if you start to play the characters you have trouble with. Learn their strengths/weaknesses. I think Zelda is just more of a noob destroyer. She's a tough nut to crack

 

[Nguz95]

Thanks for clearing that up smasfromthepast

 

[ph00tbag]

Your the only person I know who doesn't like the new magnets which are so NOT overcentralizing.

They're not overcentralizing. In the case of Ness, it has ****-all to do with the rest of Ness's design. Like, it's not even a balance thing. It's just aesthetically a monumentally stupid decision. In the case of Lucas, it fits well enough into his gameplan, it's just OP as all hell given how strong his pressure game is to begin with.

 

[Yurya]

Invincibility and armor are both destroying this game.

That needs to be restated.

 

[Bleck]

My feelings about Zelda is that approaching her should feel challenging - as opposed to now, where it almost feels impossible. A character with such long-lasting and large hitboxes on almost all of her moves probably shouldn't also have minefield-style projectiles and an invincibilty/reflector move.

 

[The_NZA]

Lol someone played a good Zelda yesterday....Zelda is kind of dumb in certain regards but I think she is designed fairly well aside from the invincibility on startup of Neutral B. Invincibility and armor are both destroying this game. Zelda is very beatable as just about any character it's just a very frustrating matchup to learn because her punish game is bonkers and that's Shaun's best quality in his playing. He drops NO punish ever. I think it would benefit you a lot as a player if you start to play the characters you have trouble with. Learn their strengths/weaknesses. I think Zelda is just more of a noob destroyer. She's a tough nut to crack

I'm willing to admit I'm not that familiar with Zelda and I might be getting "newb slayed". Obviously, I've seen similar situations occur with good players DIing badly against my Ness. But I still don't understand how nayru's love isn't a colossally dumb designed move.

Look at it's hitframe data:
Frame Total: 70
Hitboxes: Frames 12, 15, 18, 21, 24, 27
Body Collisions: Intangibility on Frames 5-12
Damage: 1-2, 5

That means in the air, you have to hit Zelda before frame 5, get lucky by hitting her on several random frames (13-14, 16-17, 19-20, 22-23, 25-26)! Thankfully, there are like 40 frames afterwards where she's vulnerable....but oh wait, this thing is lag canceled upon landing.

That means Nayru's love is basically Land canceleable marth counter on steroids. Essentially, if you don't have range on her or are a fast faller like Fox that lets you apply pressure quickly and interrupt the startup of an attack, then you are in a straight up guessing game.

Let me know if you have a good "reactive" way for a Ness to play against Nayru's love. I'm all ears.

 

[Rizner]

Motly sticking to characters that have seen massive redesigns
Best design:
Zelda/Snake/ROB - Not going to be one of my popular choices, but **** it. Smash NEEDED good characters that focused on indirect map control over movement and positioning. These three characters (I would include Ivy, but she's still got too much whiff advantage for me to include her) fill that abject void in Melee perfectly. My only real gripe out of the three of them is that Nayru's Love ought not to be land cancelable. Let it have its use as a defensive move. It doesn't need to be ubiquitous.
Wolf - As has been said, Wolf manages to feel like a space animal now, but with a unique flavor. Probably one of the best designed characters in the game.

Worst design:
Ness/Lucas - The Mother Kids are not space animals. They don't even need JC magnets. In fact, in both cases, the magnets allow a centralization around their JCability. Ness suffers in this regard, because now he has this up-close pressure option when his focus has always been on zoning and power. His gameplan is a mess now, because he has no real focus. Lucas is similar, but in his case, JC magnet makes his already stellar rushdown/pressure game obscenely safe and dangerous to his opponent. Lucas's PK Freeze is also a little bit too advantageous on hit. Thankfully, his nonsensical aerials from previous versions have been removed, but he's still really wacky.
Lucario - He's not even like a Street Fighter character--more like Marvel, and as I've said before, that is not an admirable goal to have. The on hit cancel system detracts from Lucario's otherwise really interesting fundamentals game (how many people know dair works as a poor man's FC, or that nair combos into itself at low percents for something like 24%?). It also forces his knockback values to reflect Brawl base and growth values (otherwise the on-hit system would be wasted), which makes all of his hits look extremely janky in a Melee-esque setting. I would have less of a problem if he had a suite of natural combos (jab combos, tilt combos, maybe even aerial natural combos), because that is actually a thing in SF, and I don't mind on-hit cancel into downb, but otherwise, the rest of his design is downright absurd.

I agree with nearly everything here. Only thing is I like the land cancel, and people will eventually learn how to act.

For ness, can you wavedash back and grab? I'd imagine it's a hard matchup for him largely because of it, but not unwinnable. Also for the lc to work you cant short hop and start right away, so you have more than five frames to work with

 

[The_NZA]

I agree with nearly everything here. Only thing is I like the land cancel, and people will eventually learn how to act.

For ness, can you wavedash back and grab? I'd imagine it's a hard matchup for him largely because of it, but not unwinnable. Also for the lc to work you cant short hop and start right away, so you have more than five frames to work with

I have literally shielded through nayru's love while next to her and failed the shield grab. That could be because my opponent land canceled and immediately did another attack, like nair. Potentially, I had grab frames available during her jump squat animation, but it all seemed rather silly to me. Naryu's love doesn't really have the execution failure opportunity that shine pressure has (its pretty easy to do, overall) and the way it stuffs momentum is frankly absurd.

 

[Deleted member]

My feelings about Zelda is that approaching her should feel challenging - as opposed to now, where it almost feels impossible. A character with such long-lasting and large hitboxes on almost all of her moves probably shouldn't also have minefield-style projectiles and an invincibilty/reflector move.

you forgot the part where she can teleport around, because moving through projectiles like the rest of the cast when they camp you back is boring.

the part i hate about nayru's is that it's both invincible and land canceled, so basically every time you have dirty pressure she can just 50/50 out of it. there are 4 ways to punish people in a general way, you can combo/CG them, juggle them, repeatedly engage them from positional advantage, or use projectiles and shoot them. zelda is very resilient to combos, can't be chaingrabbed, can generally escape juggles much better than most characters, nayru's to 50/50 you on re-engages, and nayru's/teleport also solves projectiles for the most part. so you're basically stuck playing fast characters with reliable throw combos. stupid/10 imo.

why is nayru's both invincible and lag cancel? one, sure, but both? just why.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

Worst designed for competing:

Ganon
D3
Zelda
Sonic
Olimar

These characters have something funky going on with them. For Ganon, he is just outclassed in an increasingly "extremity" related game. Dedede is on here because he doesn't feel like any rightful Melee character would or should feel like. Not even speaking to his viability either, just that his strategies and combos and overall gameplay are all about being brutally efficient with a character that's not meant to be. Zelda is obnoxious and is very extreme on "Hey I win" or "Hey I can't do anything". She's "falsely" good, and by that I mean a lot of her relative goodness is preying on mistakes from the opponent in the first place. She doesn't crack open up a person's defenses like a walnut. She hopes you run into her incorrectly and die. Olimar is just Olimar.

Um...and Sonic? You completely skipped over Sonic in your explanation here.

 

[The_NZA]

you forgot the part where she can teleport around, because moving through projectiles like the rest of the cast when they camp you back is boring.

Also, did she REALLY need hitbox on nayru? Was a free teleport allowing you to move around everywhere on the ground (negating your one weakness, which is mobility) not enough? It had to have a protected hitbox?

I swear, it feels like the people who designed the character basically made a flowchart and said "but how would zelda deal with x problem. I guess we could give her invulnerability. But how would zelda be able to deal with y problem. I guess we could give her a teleport. But how would zelda be able to deal with z problem. I guess we could give her teleport a hitbox".

Essentially, to me, she wasn't designed with a particularly cool play style in mind. Seems more like the BR members that designed her liked their din's fire idea, her already amazing fair/bair from melee, and they spent the rest of their energy developing a moveset that could "deal" with everything else anyone could throw at her.

I mean, the only way I could see Nayru's love being legitimized is "well, how the **** else is Zelda going to deal with shine pressure". How about Cstick buffered rolling, like the rest of us, and that way you don't bone a ton of other matchups.

 

[Deleted member]

i don't like the super kick either. like the zelda player is already trying to space the kick for the strong hit, so why make it kill at 110 sometimes and 60 other times? why not just leave it consistent and killing at 90? it literally just adds variance and does nothing else.

edit: i also like how her hit out of up b forces you into tumble unless you crouch it. at 0%

 

[NWRL]

i don't like the super kick either. like the zelda player is already trying to space the kick for the strong hit, so why make it kill at 110 sometimes and 60 other times? why not just leave it consistent and killing at 90? it literally just adds variance and does nothing else.

edit: i also like how her hit out of up b forces you into tumble unless you crouch it. at 0%

"Zelda has amazing zoning and stage control, what does she need next? The Knee. But let's make it easy as balls to sweet spot"

Pretty much how I envision the PMBR when they made that move.

 

[Deleted member]

i mean i'd say you're joking, but based on her ability to negate all crouch canceling at any % it makes you wonder.

 

[NWRL]

The only real complaint I have with her is Nayru's love, I can deal with everything else because it's just a matter of spacing and DIing to not get rekt by the kick. Her neutral B is just annoying as hell because of how ridiculously safe it is, as a whole her character isn't overpowered but it's just frustrating to fight against.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

Best 5 -
5. Mario: Mario is supposed to be the jack of all trades. While his design isn't incredibly complex, it doesn't have to be. This is how he should have been designed from the very beginning.
4. Captain Falcon: A very smooth transition from Melee along with some minor changes to make him play better result in a near-flawless feeling character.
3. Zelda: Apparently, I'm alone on this, so here you go. Zelda is nontraditional done correctly. She still has combos, they're just different. Her kick's varied knockback rewarding true spacing is a good concept on paper, and even better in play. Her ability to camp pretty well, while still having a good melee game encourages mix-ups, not just camping. Also, I'm 100% certain anyone claiming approaching her is impossible has never really tried that hard. I main Lucas, Marth, Fox, and Ice Climbers (apart from Zelda), and can say with certainty she isn't that hard to beat.
2. Lucas: He's the one, the only, the combo master! Lucas is a very good example of a glass cannon character that actually works. His recovery, while having a very good option (tether), once people figure out how to read it it becomes a lot easier to edgeguard. He doesn't have a lot of ways to escape pressure easily, and he is susceptible to being gimped, but he has a fantastic combo game, great punisher moves for good reads, and rewards a smart yet fearless-at-the-right-time playstyle, making him my favorite character to fight (and one of my favs to use).
1. Wolf: I can't say much about him that hasn't already been said. So just read some of the rest of this thread.
I'll do worst 5 later.

 

[GP&B]

The point being made isn't that she's difficult to beat; she's often considered low tier because the strategy to beating her leaves her with little room to improve. The issue is that the strategy is boring and toxic as all hell.

 

[Spire]

Also a lot of people are going to disagree with me, but I also find Marth to be a boring character in terms of design. In general I feel that his moveset, interactions with the opponent, and process of decision making are very repetitive and simple and therefore uninteresting to me.

This, completely. The same sentiment goes for Falco. I preferred Falco's playstyle in Brawl to Melee, and I know my opinion probably doesn't mean ****, but he's stiff as a board now and completely uninteresting.

I'd honestly like to see Snake's original side special ported to Falco since he now has the tranquilizer gun. Roy is far more enjoyable and interesting than Marth. Ike is more or less a bore, but Marth is just so "standard", ya know? Toon Link is really fun, just wish the PMBR would go the distance and give him a more unique moveset to further differentiate from Link, such as the Fire Rod, Ice Arrows, Deku Leaf, and Iron/Pegasus Boots.

 

[The_NZA]

Best 5 -

3. Zelda: Apparently, I'm alone on this, so here you go. Zelda is nontraditional done correctly. She still has combos, they're just different. Her kick's varied knockback rewarding true spacing is a good concept on paper, and even better in play. Her ability to camp pretty well, while still having a good melee game encourages mix-ups, not just camping. Also, I'm 100% certain anyone claiming approaching her is impossible has never really tried that hard. I main Lucas, Marth, Fox, and Ice Climbers (apart from Zelda), and can say with certainty she isn't that hard to beat.
.

I think I have tried hard, and I will continue to develop my abilities in the matchup. But it's strange that you are so dismissive on the difficulty of approaching her when you arguably exclusively use high mobility characters or characters with disjoints. Lucas/Fox are highly mobile quick hitbox fast falling pressure machines. They are also vertical killers and are traditionally associated with being the archetypical zelda counter. Marth has a big sword. Ice climbers are the only character you listed that don't fit in the automatic "zelda has a poor matchup against this cahracter" box, and I have no comment about that because I've never truly understood those parka wearing sisters.

 

[deadjames]

Ike is more or less a bore

The only way I could imagine anyone saying this is if they didn't know you can JC side-b and all the options that opens up for you, Ike is the most unique FE character by far, Roy is still just a worse version of Marth, just actually viable now.

 

[Nguz95]

Ike is the coolest when a good player is using him. All the QD stuff is amazing. When a bad player is using him, however, he's pretty bland.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I was about to say

Like I know opinions are subjective and such

But citing Ike as boring is just

wut

 

[DMG]

Um...and Sonic? You completely skipped over Sonic in your explanation here.

Yes I skipped over Sonic. His character type is hard to balance and there's a lot of room for both sides to be frustrated. It's known enough to be unspoken, heck I probably could have skipped Zelda but I didn't want 3 angry Zelda mains after me!

 

[PillsBuryDopeBoy]

This monstrosity has got to be the worst designed character........ hell, the WORST character ever.
And not even the the awesomeness of project melee can fix that

 

[Kink-Link5]

Best designed: Metaknight, Yoshi

Worst designed: Zelda, Olimar

Most flawed designs: Squirtle, Ness

Not a doubt in my mind.

 

[JRC LSS]

Best designed: Snake, Charizard, Squirtle, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Marth, ROB, Lucas, Diddy, Wario (I like a lot of characters)

I just think these characters have a really great moveset that works well within the character. If fox is OP or not is up for debate, but he has tons of great options at any time. Having such a variety of viable options is the mark of good design imo, not bad design.

Worst designed: Olimar, jigglypuff, ICs, DDD

Olimar just feels so awkward to play as, and I just don't like the random nature of his pikmin. I feel like he had the most difficult transition from brawl to PM. Jiggs for the bair disjoint and sing/rollout being useless. Useless moves simply should not exist. I think IC's chaingarbage is bad design as well as their high skill floor.

 

[The_NZA]

i don't like the super kick either. like the zelda player is already trying to space the kick for the strong hit, so why make it kill at 110 sometimes and 60 other times? why not just leave it consistent and killing at 90? it literally just adds variance and does nothing else.

edit: i also like how her hit out of up b forces you into tumble unless you crouch it. at 0%

Holy ****, I played against Korean DJ's Zelda....It's funny how it's fine to say things like "technical difficulty should never be considered a 'character flaw' in determining the balance of a broken character/move" when talking about Fox. But when people talk about Zelda, suddenly the "smallness" of the fair/bair hitboxes "balances" out its great range, quick start up, quick cooldown (you can whiff with it once and hit with it the second time), kill power (I seem to die at 60%), and its ability to be aimed forwards and backwards.

That move was fine in Melee because she didn't have much else. The fact that its been buffed alongside her existing toolset is just disgusting.

 

[Nguz95]

KDJ has a zelda? Is he still playing Mewtwo? Sorry not to add anything to the conversation, but I got really excited when I saw your post.

 

[The_NZA]

KDJ has a zelda? Is he still playing Mewtwo? Sorry not to add anything to the conversation, but I got really excited when I saw your post.

He plays like...everyone. But yeah, he has a great Ike, Zelda, Metaknight, and Mewtwo.