Best (And Worst) Designed Characters.

[Kankato]

I'm particularly fond of Snake's overall build. Having our covert Soldier rely on zoning, setups and traps is not only a unique addition to the cast, but is incredibly entertaining to play. His kit fits together very well without losing focus on defensive stage control, leaving enough holes for obvious weaknesses but enough flexibility to mix up your tools & avoid predictability. Also, Snake is a very flashy character with his box/ciggarette edgeguards & insane traps (so hype~) He is a very welcomed addition to the cast.

As for poor builds, the PMBR really need to remake Brawlimar into a stance character. Right now he has the sloppiest build of anyone on the roster (including D3).

 

[Chzrm3]

Marth is almost perfect - he's so smooth, fluid and fun. Sakurai and his team get credit for that one.

On the PM side of things, I'm in love with their versions of both Kirby and Yoshi. Those characters have never been as fun in any iteration of Smash as they are in PM.

As far as poorly designed, I've never liked Pit - not in Brawl and not in PM. Something about the character has just always felt really unsatisfying to me. Not sure what it is. As long as he has his fans, it's fine though, haha. I also don't think I've ever enjoyed playing as Snake. (again, both Brawl and PM). He feels so lanky and odd.

 

[Deleted member]

Jigglypuff, hands down. She has a boring, uninspired moveset centralized around a few moves. Her bair, her best move, has a stupid disjoint that makes no sense. She spends most of her time floating in and out, spamming that move. Rest, which is the flashiest thing about her, is so far removed from canon and is conceptually dumb. Her voice, which has always been one of her defining traits, plays no part in how she fights because her signature move, Sing, is awful.

Make Kirby faster in the air and strip him of everything else that makes him interesting, and you've got Jigglypuff.

 

[MagnesD3]

Jigglypuff, hands down. She has a boring, uninspired moveset centralized around a few moves. Her bair, her best move, has a stupid disjoint that makes no sense. She spends most of her time floating in and out, spamming that move. Rest, which is the flashiest thing about her, is so far removed from canon and is conceptually dumb. Her voice, which has always been one of her defining traits, plays no part in how she fights because her signature move, Sing, is awful.

Make Kirby faster in the air and strip him of everything else that makes him interesting, and you've got Jigglypuff.

I wish sing was better and rollout was cancellable with b or something (unless it is already). Or replace rollout with a fairy move or something.

 

[Mr.Random]

Mario good.
Olimar bad...

 

[DireDrop]

Zelda's Side-B just doesn't feel right. In general I think she's fine, but that move is not. It's not that it's broken, it's not that it's terrible, it just doesn't fit. It's the only move in the game that reminds me that PM is actually a hack and not an official title.

 

[Pseudomaniac]

Forgot about Jigglypuff since I don't see her much. Yeah, she could use some changes. I'm surprised she hasn't seen some already since the PMBR tends to change characters that are overly reliant on one move.

 

[MagnesD3]

Zelda's Side-B just doesn't feel right. In general I think she's fine, but that move is not. It's not that it's broken, it's not that it's terrible, it just doesn't fit. It's the only move in the game that reminds me that PM is actually a hack and not an official title.

I miss the old side b alot...

 

[NWRL]

My opinion on the worst design, like many others here apperently, is Zelda.

 

[XalchemistX]

Best and worst from PMBR or Sakurai's character design?

Best PM character designs:
~

~ Ice beam

~

~ is now a tank badass

~

Worst sakurai character design:

~
~
~
~
~

 

[MagnesD3]

My opinion on the worst design, like many others here apperently, is Zelda.

I wish zelda had her old side b back and zelda and sheik were split into 2 characters and given new b downs for both characters.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

I really don't agree on Zelda being terribly designed. It would be great if she could be played a little more aggressively, but campy does not equate with bad design. I was Zhime play and it is amazing to watch his Zelda. Olimar is a little bit bland in my opinion, but that is mostly because of the developers of Brawl. I dislike Pikachu because he just feels boring. He isn't badly designed though. I don't think any character is terribly designed.

 

[Yurya]

THE Best: Marth
THE Worst: Jigglypuff
Other Bad: Lucario, Mario, (before his Waft was shortened) Wario,* old Sonic, Ganon, Ice Climbers, Fox (nice idea with his mobility but bad execution with nair, uair, usmash),

My perspective on how well a character is designed is based on how well they level with you: as you improve as a player the effectiveness of the character moves accordingly. There shouldn't be large jumps in effectiveness or lack thereof. Characters that based on one style/techique to be perfected really don't cut it. I find that extreme offense characters rarely do this as too much resides on one important sequence. Smash is special among fighting games because of DI. Nothing is guaranteed (most of the time) and characters that stray from that lack good design.

Also characters that have randomness built into them MUST have that built into the core of their play: Dedede, Peach, and especially Game&Watch really suffer here as their random attributes aren't common enough to balance them (less DDD as Gordos aren't insta-kills).

Bad design: chaingrabs, auto-combos, walling projectiles, uber-strong/easy KO moves (low % killing grabs here), and random without being commonly occuring.

 

[Bleck]

Bad design: chaingrabs, auto-combos, uber-strong/easy KO moves (low % killing grabs here)

THE Best: Marth

 

[Deleted member]

in smash overall? i'd say the best designed characters are mario, link, etc while the worst are clearly ICs and Olimar. in project m specifically? i think peach is actually perfect in terms of design, while zelda is the current worst .she's still no 2.5 sonic though.

 

[deadjames]

Best: Mario
Worst: Fox

 

[otter]

Pit is the worst character design to me, but mostly because I came to P:M after years of being a Pit main on Brawl. He's and angel, that free falls so damn fast >_> I'm mostly being a baby about Pit not being like his Brawl version, but the design does fit more into what P:M was going for in the first place. Samus being so damn floaty and Pit not will forever make me rage though.

I see what you mean about few falling, but you could sort of take it as a thematic decision implying how dependent he is in Palutena to stay in the air.

I prefer pm pit by alot. His new up B gives him a much needed kill move, and his side be is just as useful but way more fun than brawl's flight.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Always Olimar for the worst. All Sakurai's fault.

 

[NeonApophis]

Lucas is my favorite newly designed character. His smashes might be a little overpowered, but all of his other moves work really cohesively and allow you to do a lot of creative and highly technical things that aren't possible with other characters. He also doesn't really have any physical moves that you can just throw out over and over since most of his moves have low priority (such as nair and magnet, two of his main combo starters), allowing opponents to stuff Lucas if he isn't precise and intelligent with his movement and attacks. At the same time, I think he can play on the same level as Fox and Falco if he is being played well, so he has a lot of potential for people willing to put in the practice. Right now not very many people know how to fight him, so I'm concerned that people might think he is broken and want to significantly alter his moves, but he has to work harder than Fox and Falco to get the same results. His magnet is much slower than shine, so he isn't as safe when following up on aerials, and although his combos can basically 0-death anyone off a good hit, they are harder to continue than things like up throw -> up air for Fox or Falco's shine/dair based combos. Despite these comparative neutral game weaknesses, Lucas still seems like the next gen spacie; he's not as capable of just throwing out nairs and shines and being safe, but if he is played super accurately he can do just about anything. I like characters that are primarily limited by my abilities, not by their design, so Lucas's super high skill ceiling and amazing potential makes him really appealing.

 

[Phaiyte]

My favorite designs are Ganon and Marth in this game.

 

[DrinkingFood]

He's got too much going for him and not enough weaknesses.
He is really hard to kill because he is a floaty heavyweight character and because his recovery options are crazy. 3 airdashes, a jump, a possible AGT, dair, bair and an airdodge is too much. He also has 2 longe-range projectiles that he can use while he is recovering with ease.

His laser takes ~10 seconds to fully charge and after he uses the fully charged laser he gets to use an even faster weaker one. His top is incredibly good for stage control and edgeguarding and he can constantly spew them out.

He can airdodge after using his recovery moves and his spot dodge is one of the best.

Most of his attacks come out pretty fast and don't suffer from too much endlag. I find this kind of strange coming from a heavy character.

His grab range and dash grab range are amazing and his dthrow is one of the best in the game. His uthrow is pretty damn good at killing too.

All of those are some good traits he has, but I think his airdash really puts him over the top. The mobility he gains from that thing is insane and completely transforms the character into something that changes how the game is played. Mobility is something that is really important in both melee and PM and the airdash completely ****s on pretty much all of the other character's mobility options. If he gets a good ground hit on an opponent, he can chase down that opponent from anywhere in the air and safely land an aerial. This airdash also INCREASES the strength of his aerial attacks, something I find so uneccesary because his aerials are already so good! His fair is fast and good for gimping, and his other aerials are all strong as ****.

One of his only weaknesses is how easy airdash->fair is to predict, but the problem here is how hard it is to actually punish because of how fast he can do it over and over again due to his fast fall speed. If you could provide me with more weaknesses I would greatly appreciate it.

You'd be really hard pressed to find good players that place him anywhere above mid-to-low tier. Most of your claims here are exaggerations. Weaknesses include having no good movement options that aren't airdash or glide toss; airdash having a lot of start-up when including the jump; glide toss requiring a gyro in his hand, which isn't quick to get out and must be picked up after every glide toss. His DD is ****, run speed is ****, wavedash is ****, fall speed isn't fast so his jumps are slow and he has a hard time getting back down to the ground when somebody is below him because of the mediocre fall speed and lack of aerial that hits below him well. Getting hit solidly out of airdash approaches leaves his recovery already reduced, you're right that his recovery is good, but only because he usually has a lot of options and gets a lot of distance out of it, but if he's touched off stage he's pretty much ****ed because he doesn't get his boosts restored when hit. His grab reach isn't as good as you say; he's a fairly wide character so if you're judging it off the statistics list, you're not getting an accurate depiction of his grab disjoint, as the list only shows his reach from the center of his body, which isn't that important if your hurtboxes reach just as far. Also, I'm fairly sure strong laser is at least 15 seconds to charge. Weak laser also takes like 2.5-3 seconds, it's not even that spammable. Airdash also only increases damage on aerials, and only by two. The change in knockback that causes is minuscule. Boost fair is pretty CC-able at low percents, so it's saying something that he has to rely on laser and gyro to build damage at low percents against competent players. All his fast, grounded attacks are also weak at low damage, they are really only good as pokes, not as combo starters. Dsmash is kinda an exception, but it seems pretty easy to just SDI into the ground and tech.

You need to remember these characters do not exist in a vacuum either. However much ROB has going for him, most characters have better.

 

[DMG]

It depends on what you mean. I tend to separate things into two groups:

1. Best/Worst Designed for competing/tools (Doesn't necessarily mean a top tier character or a dominant character, but whether they were given decent enough tools to function and ideally aren't too strong)
2. Best/Worst Designed for enjoyment, feel, character personality, etc

They are very different from each other, and I'll list some for both


Best designed for competing:

Marth
Wolf
Wario
Ike
Mario

These characters don't have much wrong with them, are fairly capable, and don't always ruin the game. Good without being overbearing (watch it Wolf!)


Worst designed for competing:

Ganon
D3
Zelda
Sonic
Olimar

These characters have something funky going on with them. For Ganon, he is just outclassed in an increasingly "extremity" related game. Dedede is on here because he doesn't feel like any rightful Melee character would or should feel like. Not even speaking to his viability either, just that his strategies and combos and overall gameplay are all about being brutally efficient with a character that's not meant to be. Zelda is obnoxious and is very extreme on "Hey I win" or "Hey I can't do anything". She's "falsely" good, and by that I mean a lot of her relative goodness is preying on mistakes from the opponent in the first place. She doesn't crack open up a person's defenses like a walnut. She hopes you run into her incorrectly and die. Olimar is just Olimar.


Best designed for enjoyment/feel/what you expect of a character archetype:

Bowser
Marth/Roy/Ike
Link
Mario
Wolf
Samus

These characters are pretty spot on for what you expect of them, and win or lose you will probably enjoy playing as these characters. Bowser is the epitome of big strong guy. All of the Fire Emblem characters feel fun to play. Link plays like you would expect. Toss a myraid of things, decent hitboxes, decently strong sword hits, not overly fast, etc. Mario is Mario, Wolf is the funnest Spacie and the "fairest" one to boot. Samus is probably a bit controversial, but she's pretty well thought out and can finally roll now!


Worst designed for enjoyment/feel/what you expect of a character archetype:

Zelda
Ness

I only have two here this time. I can't even begin to expand on Zelda being here. I'll leave that one as is. Ness is actually quite fun overall, just make him good in other areas besides Pre-K Tire



You can put your own characters into that model. Just how I see the game atm. You could also make a column for "least fun to play against" and toss zelda ivy sonic falco and others in it

 

[guedes the brawler]

People that barely changed from melee to PM are the worst. Notably because they are all top tiers and most still dominate just as much as before.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I'll go notify Jigglypuff, she'll be overjoyed to know she's actually top 5.

[Replace with Peach, Ganon, Falcon, Marth ... yeah they all dominate the game, mmhmm]

 

[Arrow (Kyle)]

I see what you mean about few falling, but you could sort of take it as a thematic decision implying how dependent he is in Palutena to stay in the air.

I prefer pm pit by alot. His new up B gives him a much needed kill move, and his side be is just as useful but way more fun than brawl's flight.

IDK, I just like my angels floating rather than free falling.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Given Pit's aerials, his fastfalling vastly improves his SHFFL and combo game, not hurt it ...

Play less zoning and more aggressive.

 

[Yurya]

Yes I was wondering if someone would mention that; Marth isn't perfect (I don;'t know if humans can create a character that is) but in comparison to the rest of the cast the finesse behind Marth makes up for it.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

I didn't take this thread too seriously coming in, since it'd be silly to do that what with PM still having plenty of room for character growth. Some of these posts are pretty silly though. I'll pick out a few characters...

Best designed: Lucas, Yoshi, Ivy, Snake, Charizard, Link, and as much as I hate him, that damn Sonic. Reasoning for them individually (IMPORTANT, THESE ARE ALL OPINIONS AND YOU ARE WELCOME TO DISAGREE WITH ME FOR HAVING THEM, NOTHING HERE IS STATED AS A FACT):

Kinda biased with Lucas, but it seems I'm not alone here. This Lucas is like Brawl Lucas, BUT IF HE WAS IN MELEE. Usually that's kinda figured with most imported Brawl characters but in Brawl Lucas was missing some tools to make him good. Local player and well-known Lucas main Pink Fresh has recently played Project M and with little training already is adjusting to him quickly (He was even in the Project M Apex Trailer!) so I think this is a good testament to what I mentioned before. He has a large branching combo tree with his moves and it makes things a lot of fun when you nail that sick combo or Tokyo DACUS on over for the kill.

Yoshi is an interesting one. He has a great projectile which provokes thought when you should and shouldn't use it. Egg toss is probably one of my favorite moves to use with him. It adds a lot of pressure to his game in tandem with his retooled Egg roll. This move needed a change badly, so the devs taking it and turning it into a recovery tool as well as an onstage opener was a great design choice as it has multiple uses now. I think it's well balanced in that a lot of moves can stop it on incoming if you use it too much/from too far away. His tongue length for Grab, and Egg lay are also great, the cool-downs are good and seem perfectly fair. Yoshi with an OOS is amazing, and once Yoshi mains figure out how to utilize it fully I'm sure Yoshi will get even better. He still has weaknesses which can be taken advantage of and I think he's pretty fair over all.

Snake in Brawl was kind of boring. I should know, two of my main training partners mained him, so it was pretty much a Snake gauntlet whenever we got together to train. His playstyle was fairly straight forward and a lot of moves didn't need to be used. PMBR has done a great job with this Snake, however. I think the best thing they did (especially with 3.0's release) was make Snake FEEL more tactical in the game. From fixed Throws and the ability to walk while holding someone, to the usage of mines and careful C4 placement (including the new fakeout mechanic) Snake as a whole seems to be a lot more sneaky. That in itself says a lot regarding character design. When I die to Snake I do feel like it was something he earned through careful play and good set-up. He also has a very quick and punishing combo game at lower percents depending on how it starts. Everyone's seen Professor Pro by now, and it's just a shame there aren't a bunch of Snake mains, because he's a fun character to battle and watch (in my opinion of course) Gotta stay on your toes!

Charizard, I don't think, has popped up too much in other people's lists and I don't think he will TOO much, haha. I think Charizard got a lot of changes that made him look and feel more how Charizard would fight from the memories people have about him. Charizard was portrayed as fairly quick so I definitely appreciate how quick he is in this game. He's also got powerful looking moves that are satisfying when you land them. Some people say his combos are easy or, god forbid, automatic, and in my opinion, Charizard would probably only use a couple moves if it was working anyway. I think his combo game, while somewhat simplistic, is still a lot of fun and not at all 'braindead' Is he the best? Not at all, but I think the PMBR designed him very well.

Link has never been that good, which is a shame considering a lot of people that play Smash are probably really into Zelda too. However, over time I think Link has developed to be pretty damn good in his own right. Link utilizes the multiple projectiles he has to harass the opponent and open them up for his combos. Transitioning from projectile usage to a sword attacks/combos feels extremely fluid and I think it's a good place for how Link should function in a Smash game. I don't think there are a whole lot of Link mains either, which is unfortunate since only after a few rounds I discovered he was a lot of fun to play as.

And finally, Sonic. Sonic's had some bad history even all the way back from Brawl. PM players will more regularly recognize his performance in 2.5, and here, I think a lot can agree, he wasn't designed so well. Going into 2.6, he was nerfed to an extent, but in my opinion felt somewhat in tact for how Sonic should operate. Coming into 3.0 I think he's (for the most part) well off in terms of design. He's how you'd expect Sonic to play (assuming we don't take spin-offs, like Sonic the Fighters, into consideration) he's lightning fast, has quick attacks to match, and has many little homages here and there. Basically he fights like a ****, which, to be fair, is probably the most fitting for him. His speed and pressure come in quick, his combos are fast, and if you're offstage, you can get gimped in the blink of an eye. So even though I personally don't enjoy FIGHTING him, I can recognize that the PMBR did a pretty good job with his design.


In terms of THE WORST designed characters? I definitely have to say Olimar. I think the PMBR did a pretty damn good job across the boards, but Olimar is... Just not good. And to be fair, it's not wholly their faults considering what they had to work with. A few things here and there were pretty nice (Fast whistle for organization, Pikmin strengths scaling with their growth) but as a whole he just doesn't have oomph. He doesn't need to be super flashy and really fast, but he just doesn't seem fully fleshed out. I'm interested to see where he goes, and I wish the devs the best of luck with him.

 

[JOE!]

Captain Falcon is my choice for best designed. He has very clear strengths and weaknesses, and I personally believe he embodies Melee gameplay to the tee, even moreso than Fox.

Eh, I don't think he is too well designed due to one thing: his playstyle boils down to = press buttons -> Knee. It may just be my personal preference, but it makes Falcon just seem very shallow in that 90% of the time the strategy is to just bait players into a combo into that one move to win.

Anywho, I have similar issues with Jigglypuff in that all she really is is Fair/Bair and Rest 90% of the time. If a character is made "good" merely by having a handful of moves, those moves are really good and not the "character" as a whole. Falco falls into this boat as well: his lasers and Dair allow him to do so much stuff that other characters have to actually work for to the point of some things being autopilot at times.


As for best design, Fox and Wolf are up there (Uair and Usmash set aside due to their unbalanced reward), as well as Mario and MK: all their tools have a use and they have a variety of playstyles and methods to do pretty much any strategy you can think of for them.

 

[Deleted member]

I wish zelda had her old side b back

Which "old" side B are you referring to? Her PM 1.0 Din's or her Brawl Din's? Because Brawl Din's was NOT a good attack.

 

[TheLostSabre]

I would guess Magnes meant her PM 1.0 Din's Fire.

 

[guedes the brawler]

I'll go notify Jigglypuff, she'll be overjoyed to know she's actually top 5.

[Replace with Peach, Ganon, Falcon, Marth ... yeah they all dominate the game, mmhmm]

oh, i know, i just put the most too late.

 

[9bit]

Dedede is on here because he doesn't feel like any rightful Melee character would or should feel like. Not even speaking to his viability either, just that his strategies and combos and overall gameplay are all about being brutally efficient with a character that's not meant to be.

That's like the best description of Dedede I've ever read.

 

[MagnesD3]

Which "old" side B are you referring to? Her PM 1.0 Din's or her Brawl Din's? Because Brawl Din's was NOT a good attack.

What did it do in 1.0?

 

[Kati]

I'm just going to vent a tiny bit:

Mario's Dsmash
Rob's laser recharging so very very fast
Snake's silly upB
Fox's Upsmash

No super hard feelings though, but the laser did turn me off from playing Rob. It's like the ultimate poke to follow up a combo or gimp with, and I just preferred having to use it when I really was sure rather than just whenever I felt like it. Along with Mario's Dsmash, it just seems so safe that not enough thought has to be put into using it.

I love the subtle buffs that melee vets under Puff received, and the revamped brawl characters.

 

[Nguz95]

Mario makes me cry on the inside. He's such a noob cannon...

 

[DrinkingFood]

How can you people possibly complain about ROB's laser recharing every ~3 seconds when something like Falco's laser exists with next to no endlag that can be repeated more than once per second?
This **** seriously baffles me. It's not like it even does that much damage either, And can be tough to hit on people that spend a lot of time moving up and down and on and off platforms.

 

[Lil Puddin]

What did it do in 1.0?

I assume it was line Brawl's Din minus the helpless state after using it. Which is all that's required to make it a really great move because of it's travel speed. I assume the Brawl team made Din's Fire lead into a helpless state because it allows her to glide really far. Which is still pretty unfair.

Speaking of Zelda, I think she's horribly designed. It's not that she lacks utility or power, oh no, she's got that. It's just for some reason. . . Well, she's just such a diva. I mean, she goes on to the field and doesn't want to fight. She's too good for that. Instead she creates an invisible throne room and throws balls of fires around to decorate the joint. Then she expects YOU to go visit HER. Wooooooow, sooooooo ruuuuuuuuuude! I don't blame her though. Because whenever she leaves her little make-believe throne room she always gets hurt. Badly. If she's not controlling everything around her then she becomes devastated and throws a tantrum by letting herself get KO'd! She was never prepared for the real world, I think. D:

Exaggeration aside, she is pretty annoying. Her forte is controlling a set zone and preying on a targets misstep. In other words, she isn't fighting. She's playing passive-aggressively. You can play mostly-offensive with Zelda, but you will be playing a high risk/high reward kind of game. And if your opponent out-reaches you (weapon users or huge folk), then you will be playing a highhighhigh risk/high reward kind of game.

 

[MagnesD3]

I assume it was line Brawl's Din minus the helpless state after using it. Which is all that's required to make it a really great move because of it's travel speed. I assume the Brawl team made Din's Fire lead into a helpless state because it allows her to glide really far. Which is still pretty unfair.

Speaking of Zelda, I think she's horribly designed. It's not that she lacks utility or power, oh no, she's got that. It's just for some reason. . . Well, she's just such a diva. I mean, she goes on to the field and doesn't want to fight. She's too good for that. Instead she creates an invisible throne room and throws balls of fires around to decorate the joint. Then she expects YOU to go visit HER. Wooooooow, sooooooo ruuuuuuuuuude! I don't blame her though. Because whenever she leaves her little make-believe throne room she always gets hurt. Badly. If she's not controlling everything around her then she becomes devastated and throws a tantrum by letting herself get KO'd! She was never prepared for the real world, I think. D:

Exaggeration aside, she is pretty annoying. Her forte is controlling a set zone and preying on a targets misstep. In other words, she isn't fighting. She's playing passive-aggressively. You can play mostly-offensive with Zelda, but you will be playing a high risk/high reward kind of game. And if your opponent out-reaches you (weapon users or huge folk), then you will be playing a highhighhigh risk/high reward kind of game.

Well that's the one I want then badly, her current side b IMO feels really awkward like it shouldn't exist akward

 

[Nguz95]

I believe Zelda's old Din's fire was a single fireball that couldn't be clanked. It functioned the same way as one of her current dins, but you could only have one of them out at a time. Honestly that sounds pretty cool.