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I think a character like olimar should be able to zone, with so few pikmin available and how slow he picks them out he cant really zone as he needs them for other other areas which are more important, there isnt room for fodder pikmin to get rid of so he can zone. Honestly its the only buff I want given back to olimar besides me wanting armor back on the whistle.
I personally like the 4 pikmin. they survive a LOT longer than their vbrawl counterparts, and because there are only 4, they reward you for hitting the opponent rather than spamming them. It feels fair. On the other hand, he does need better design, he doesn't feel like he has changed much from brawl in terms of movesets, I think he needs something like a way to decide which pikmin he wants.
I have never played as Mewtwo yet or fought him - until the past two days. I thought something was off about Mewtwo. Like his "rolling" animation is too wide and I'm pretty sure he could not use teleport to follow up into attacks. I assume he has a few more tweaks coming in the near future, mainly to his rolls, recovery, and shadow ball speed and/or range so he can't be the ultimate camper anymore. Other than that he seems fine, even if his tail range and speed is kind of hard to get around for the stubbier smashers.
As in, couldn't act out of tele? Or it's just pretty difficult to combo out of? I find that short hop > tele forward > hover fair can work as a launcher/combo finisher if they're low and your spacing is good.
What I meant is that he does not have a helpless state after Up+B, so he can attack ASAP. It wasn't like that in Melee. So it just feels off. As for whether or not he should have an option to use teleport to lead into combos. . . I don't know. He certainly can make use of it; and it isn't too hard to see coming. But at the same time it still feels off.
Oh, you didn't know about the change to tele, I gotcha. Honestly it came as a much needed buff IMO. Really enhances his bag-of-tricks kind of gameplay.
Yeah, that's why I can't bring myself to say "omg he doesn't need dat SOOOOOO unfair!!!" However, his tail attacks have all had their speed increased in some way and are also longer reaching, while having some nice launch power behind them. So it's not like he doesn't have quick or surprising things to use. I can see why they call him a janky character. He feels like Zelda, where changing one thing could ruin him or make him ruin others. So maybe he is perfect as is? Dunno.
Very true. I guess we'll have to see where he goes after the metagame develops and we see some more high level m2s.
You know, I keep hearing about how bad PAL Melee Fox is that he deserves to be pushed into obscurity. I wish I could actually get my hands on it so that I can see for myself. Although I am one of those people who thinks that the more lenient technical environment in Project M is very beneficial for Fox; maybe too much. His Neutral Game is very advantageous with his no stun rapid fire Blaster, speed and agility, and his Reflector to stop camping projectile characters. Of course, Fox does have one bad match-up thanks to the Blue Blur. Like I said, I am one of those people who narrows his eyes at the furry jerk but I know that nothing can be done about it since Melee vets see NTSC Melee Fox as a perfectly balanced character. I don't know why I rant; I just do.
Do people really think that Fox is perfectly balanced? I mean his up-smash seems to me like the best move in the entire game, is there anything comparable? Especially because most PM characters are not fast fallers, he is incredibly well equipped to destroy everyone.You know, I keep hearing about how bad PAL Melee Fox is that he deserves to be pushed into obscurity. I wish I could actually get my hands on it so that I can see for myself. Although I am one of those people who thinks that the more lenient technical environment in Project M is very beneficial for Fox; maybe too much. His Neutral Game is very advantageous with his no stun rapid fire Blaster, speed and agility, and his Reflector to stop camping projectile characters. Of course, Fox does have one bad match-up thanks to the Blue Blur. Like I said, I am one of those people who narrows his eyes at the furry jerk but I know that nothing can be done about it since Melee vets see NTSC Melee Fox as a perfectly balanced character. I don't know why I rant; I just do.
The reason why I say this is because they see Fox as an extreme character that requires on point precision and can get combo'd or chaingrabbed pretty easily and not to mention that his recovery is quite predictable and easy to intercept. That sort of thing is why not every matchup in Melee was in his favor which is why lot of Melee vets see him as a balanced character, but at the same time he didn't have a single bad matchup. Here we are in Project M, the characters have receieved some changes but Fox is still Fox while control over your character more lenient. I play Fox more in Project M than in Melee because control over your character is more lenient than it is in Melee. Sure, he does take skill but the tech skill barrier is much lower than it is in Melee. The control scheme for Melee felt justified for Fox's neutral game and moveset because you have to be on point with your inputs. With Project M, I'm not sure if it is justified. Problem is, we have Falco with a single fire blaster that has hitstun so changing Fox's neutral game which is advantageous because of the Blaster won't happen. Kinda funny that the Blaster change from 64 to Melee was supposed to be seen as a nerf when it elevated his gameplay.
I'm not sure about the whole Stockholm syndrome deal, but hey let's go with that if we must.
It is true that those upSmash attacks are more powerful than Fox's, but they aren't as versatile. The difference is in the hitbox placement and how close you must be to your opponent. Fox's Up Smash can cover his front before completing the flip. I think it might cover maybe 4 or 6 pixels length. I don't know, I'm trying to science.
Nothing in any smash game will ever as stupid as Pikachu's fair in Smash 64. If a move has endlag, or has low active frames, or long start up, short range, etc., it can be punished. The only moves that approach this level of stupidity in the game are Shine, Cypher, and in some aspects, Zelda's F-smash. Fox's U-smash is a strong move that comes out quickly and is promptly grabbed on shield or otherwise harshly punished on whiff.
To be fair, the Cypher is Snake's only good OOS option against harsh shield pressure like when Fox just nair+Shine all over your shield...
No that suggestion is disgusting
Ugh this is spiderman aids level bs I can guarantee that pm would be 20% less interesting without the godsend that is the shine. If you want to nerf fox the right way then change the input for shine to up speical and fox fire to down special and I promise you would never see fox players dominating anything ever again
PM is a fast-paced game. Zelda's best and safest asset is using her mines to camp behind; it gives her time to relax and has high room for error. So a lot of people see her played this way since it's the go-to tactic (due to efficiency for wins). If she loses the camping tools (mines), she is forced to be her old passive-aggressive self. Her original definition of defense was "play smart, play hard - steal their momentum and crush their chances of applying pressure by sending them far away with lingering disjointed attacks." PM Zelda's definition of defense is, yep, you guessed it, camping. Which is very unsavory and out of place in a fast-paced game.
First off, that analogy is a total WTF moment there. The style that she has is the one that works for her right now. Every character in the game doesn't need to be fast like Fox. Look at Bowser and the style that he has to play by. The design that she had in Melee was not enough to be used at high level play and it was why she was overshadowed by her alter ego because Shiek seemed more fast paced. I have seen some very aggressive Zelda players that use Din's to lock characters down and pop in your face for combo opportunities with Farore's Wind. Camping with Din's Fire isn't going to work at high level play. It clanks with virtually every move in Project M and it won't do damage to you until it is placed which shouldn't be a problem in a fast-paced environment. Her defense uses Din's as a way to limit her opponent's options. You are doing something wrong if you're letting her get the time to set up walls of pain. If you honestly think that Zelda can camp for a long time with Din's Fire, then you don't know the matchup against her as it is impossible for her to camp with Din's Fire at high level play. Her definition of defense is still to play smart and steal their momentum as well as applying pressure.
I don't see how the analogy is WTF, it pretty much says "she's not playing by the rules everyone else is playing and that's annoying" or "she's going too slow in this fast game." In matches against fast opponents, (Captain Falcon, Marth, etc) they apply too much pressure for her to set up. Against slower ones she just has at it. She uses Din's Fire to set up the field so she knows where the other player CAN'T go. Often resulting in her playing "can't touch this" or "I'm all up in your biscuits and gravy." The latter is fine and requires skill, but I don't see a lot of it. People opt to go for wall of fire and call it a day. Either way, her gameplay is out of place and needs a slight change in pace. Though as long as she has transform she will probably remain that way for the sake of being a 1/2 to something that's already a whole by itself.
If she wins by camping with Din's fire, then that's because her opponent doesn't know the match up. It is impossible for her to win at high level play like that. Whenever I see Zelda players like Zhime or Gardy play, they play it smart by using Din's to limit their opponent's options and give her a chance to deal her own pressure. Zelda's play style is different, no doubt. That doesn't mean that every character has to play at a fast pace. Snake is another example of a character that has to play smart because he can't win by brute force anymore.
I've played Zhime's Zelda, and he doesn't play the campy style. He's actually the only fun Zelda I've ever had the pleasure of playing against, and if every zelda player played like Zhime, I probably wouldn't have problems. But you overrate the ability of characters to disrupt Zelda's minefield. Ness for example has very few options.
That's why there are match up disadvantages. It really is doable to disrupt her minefield. Nearly any attack clanks with Din's Fire. I know that doesn't mean that everybody's attacks can do it like Ness for instance. One of his options bring him very close to danger because he has to be on top of a mine to absorb the initial damage with Down B. Zelda is fine the way that she is and taking away her mines would leave Zelda being overshadowed by Sheik once again.
Are you racist against Toads?
How'd you feel about mine? I generally don't consider myself campy.
I think what's been stated a lot in here is that Zelda beats people who don't know the matchup. Realistically, if you wanted one character who veries in ability to win based on MU experience the most, imo it'd be Zelda. So with that, when you start of with DJ not knowing the matchup, I think that you don't give that part of your statement enough credit.
Okay, I want to preface everything I am about to say by stating something pretty important: You have shown incredible grace and politeness in face of what I have thrown at you after our money match. I still find the amount of frustration I vented to you after the match to be totally unsportsman like and not really becoming of the kind of player I want to be. I am a fan of you as a person and look forward to seeing you again. But I am not a fan of your character or the way you play her.
Interesting - definitely appreciate the feedback. I think that some of those traits were exacerbated due to the matchup and knowing that it shuts down your character (where I couldn't play that way against others of the cast on most stages), but I'm going to have to try to get lots of video at my next tournament and see how I play against most people and most matchups. I don't think I generally play that way, but it wouldn't surprise me too much to realize that's the case. Definitely something to look out for. It could even be that in tournament/mm I play differently than friendlies without noticing it, but regardless thank you for the reply.
GnW can release bucket after catching something. Use this as a mix up to cover the lag. It's pretty awesome imo.
I don't see how Link's projectiles have any big problems as he can put up an offensive game with all of his tools and not just a select few to top it with Nair. Link in Project M 3.0 is probably the best iteration of Link I have seen in any of the Smash games. If it improves on his combo game, then why revert back to his Melee style? I mean, he is arguably the worst punished character for missed grabs in Melee which held back his close combat game.
I agree with it all except the implying that people should complain about foxes up-smash, Fox is fine as he is.
