Beating extremely gay meta knights!

[_Kadaj_]

Emblem Lord today I won another tourny with marth with about 40plus in attendence but in the grand finals I was amazed at how gay my opponent with mk. I found it extremely difficult to up-b out of tornado while already being in it. I know absolutly all grab release setups and playing defensive and all that but I need a more in depth way to stop a mk that basically revovles his entire game around a tornado and sometimes a d smash some f-airs and maybe an up b. I'm a really good player in general and I've played and have beaten forte before (friendlies never had a chance to play him in tourny ...) but for some reason the way this guy played was extremely gay.


Any1 and every1 disscuss.


O yea for the record grab release doesn't work mario.

 

[Asdioh]

this might be an extremely stupid question, because I just randomly saw this thread on the brawl character discussion, and you sound really good, but does Counter work on the tornado? O_o

 

[ZHMT]

Metaknight is ghey.

Anyways....

If a MK is gonna spam tornado, you have 4 options really.

1) Hold your shield through it and punish the small ending lag he has.

2) Use counter on the ghey tornado.

3) Move away from it and respace yourself.

4) I suppose its possible to shield breaker through it? Im not sure, just guessing.

MK's that spam tornado will often switch up and spam dsmash after they see the tornado not working. Therefore you have to figure out which one is going to spam and when. This is by experience. Also watch out for the up b spam as well. MK's tend to mix up a up b within the 5 dsmashes they use...

Man... Brawl fails lol.

 

[Steel]

You can counter it too.. why wasn't up b out of shield working? Works for me.

 

[_Kadaj_]

It was working out of sheild let me clarify. For ex. Say you get knocked in the air and your coming down. There is a time when you get close to the stage but you can't dodge bcuz your too close to the stage and you can't block bcuz your in the air. At times like that when you have that slight vunerability that's when he's constantly tornado'ing its not like there's space or time for me to knock him out of it and if I counter he just anticipates it and grabs or d smashes. But it's not like he was like flat out GODLY or anything it's just every time that your somewhat vulnerable its always a tornado. And I mean you can't virtually be invulnerable all the time so the damage WILL accumulate over time. Not to mention punishing his landing lag is not always possible just as Neo said.
Not to mention if he's constantly tornado-ng you can't always shield to wait out bcuz its gonna be low after a previous tornado

 

[VietGeek]

You can counter it too.. why wasn't up b out of shield working? Works for me.

If MK angles his tornado at 45 degrees, it seems the tornado can stuff frame 5 (which the attack comes out on) and hit you in frame 6.

It has happened before to me, weird but true.

Not sure on the angle or frmae data. Angle could be anywhere from 30-45 IIRC.

 

[ZHMT]

If he continually tornadoes, you have NO choice but to play defensive and punish when there is 30'ish frames of ending lag. (Im talking about being airborne, and vunerable)

Try to jump and force his tornado to go up, this way he is higher in the air, giving you more time to punish.

 

[IDK]

its known as the wh0renado. fyi. not they ghey tornado. when i play against Mk i usually prefer to use my diddy over my marth in that particular matchup.

 

[_Kadaj_]

I've found that running off stage and hugging the ledge in a tight situation can give you the spacing you need basically start over ( when fighting and are semi close to the ledge and or are basically touching the ledge) I do this a lot and also catches a lot of ppl by surprise. But what's the deal on up b'ing out of the tornado once your inside it? (How is what I'm asking) I do it sometimes but it doesn't work all the time and sometimes he won't up b others he will up b out but fall to the ground and once that's done he has enough time to punish that. I found that if your up b missed aiming towards the ledge and grabbing it helps out.


Also bigmack diddy is a great counter for meta knight lol but we need to improve on marth's tactics against mk.
we can't bannana dribble like diddy

 

[ZHMT]

its known as the wh0renado. fyi. not they ghey tornado.

I stand corrected lol

@Maverick Ace, I think if you press up b between hits of the tornado you will pierce through. One thing is that its almost impossible to time so maybe mashing up b will work? Not sure however. Plus if you happen to DI out, youll accidentally dolphin slash up, leaving you in a VERY bad position.

I DI out instead of dolphin slash.

Also, going to the ledge to reset spacing doesnt seem like a very good idea to me. Im not saying it does not work occasionally, but Marth doesnt have the best ledge attacks in the world and anyone standing outside of Marth's ledge attack limits Marth completely.

 

[_Kadaj_]

That's true but its not always to attack once you grab the edge. Its simply to reposition yourself I mean think about it would you A) rather grab the edge to prevent being hit off wether shielding or not or would you B) simply avoid it completely by grabbing the edge to reset your spacing and to also keep the pace/tone/flow/you get what I'm saying lol in your favor.

 

[ZHMT]

That's true but its not always to attack once you grab the edge. Its simply to reposition yourself I mean think about it would you A) rather grab the edge to prevent being hit off wether shielding or not or would you B) simply avoid it completely by grabbing the edge to reset your spacing and to also keep the pace/tone/flow/you get what I'm saying lol in your favor.

Well, I guess it depends on the situation, grabbing the ledge CAN work. The move I most use to reset spacing is a ftilt since it stops Short hop happy opponents. Also when in the proper situation, a dolphin slash.

About the gay Metaknights...

You said that you know what your doing, and you obviously know the matchup....if your playing well, continue on. I know you want to stop this particular MK's gayness and there is a counter to basically everything in the game, if they spam something, spam the counter of it back back. (Sometimes the best counter...is marths counter )

When being stuck in the tornado counts consecutive hits most of the time, so just try to DI out of it. Tornado is just annoying and luckily Marth is light, some chars have almost no hope of escape... *laughs at dedede*

 

[_Kadaj_]

Lol do you smash di out or normally di out if both or either list which direction plz

 

[ZHMT]

Lol do you smash di out or normally di out if both or either list which direction plz

I usually just DI down that way when you get out youll have time to punish him. However I was looking into the "guide to beating MK thread" and it says not to DI at all. This way you may have a chance to air dodge when you get popped up and only take a few %. Ill go try that now. As of now however, I usually just DI downwards. However since you should space a little away from MK you may be able to react and hit a counter.

 

[IDK]

grabbing the edge to got out of tight situations only works if their char doesnt have a good edgeguard. if they do, bad idea.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Yea I'll try to di downwards and to not di at all and see which works better.

Yea I know what you mean.

The thing is its never a whorenado outside of one marth (lol by 1 marth I mean character length) its always in close quarters like while your actually fighting or like if he's trying to rush in with something (like f-air) immediatly after ward there's a whorenado like he tries to do it when it would seem like a good time to punish him after something (d smash, etc)

 

[Pierce7d]

Get good at counter. It's something I need to work on (though MT is never a problem with me)

Also, if you're awesome like me, you can tipper Fsmash MK outta his tornado.

 

[Shaya]

I adore tipper fsmashing MK's out of their tornado. It is always just too awesome.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Yea lol I did that a couple of times in grand Finals

 

[jinofcoolnes]

Emblem Lord today I won another tourny with marth with about 40plus in attendence but in the grand finals I was amazed at how gay my opponent with mk. I found it extremely difficult to up-b out of tornado while already being in it. I know absolutly all grab release setups and playing defensive and all that but I need a more in depth way to stop a mk that basically revovles his entire game around a tornado and sometimes a d smash some f-airs and maybe an up b. I'm a really good player in general and I've played and have beaten forte before (friendlies never had a chance to play him in tourny ...) but for some reason the way this guy played was extremely gay.


Any1 and every1 disscuss.


O yea for the record grab release doesn't work mario.

What torneys do you play in?(Region?)

 

[takeurlife2]

Is there such thing as a 'not gay' metaknight? and yes, shieldbreaker breaks the nado.

 

[_Kadaj_]

I play in the Atlantic North region. I'll be going to jubilee next weekend soo I'll see how that turns out (its in the Atlantic south)

 

[Retroking2000]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=161939&highlight=mach+tornado

well from my experience on marth X metaknight

dtilt seems to **** him pretty much since he is small , just be caution in what moves you do because of his height in that matchup i dont really fsmash since marth swings his sword and up then forward because a MK and hit you if they are close , i use Dsmash alot since the move comes out at floor level , because MK is so short ,

also use counter , but not spam use it indecisively so he wont attack mindlessly that will break the pressure he has on you ,

try to spam Fairs alot , really alot not , when it even hits MK , try to make the fair move really weak so you can do fair to fsmash tipper

if he rushes in with dash attack pivot >B , ( dash back and >B )

hmm i wonder what happens if you press angle between forward and down on the cstick , my friend gave me a hunch on if you press the directions inbetween foward and up or forward and down marths tipper angle changes but meh ,

( i bet you guys are gonna try it haha )

if you feel like you messed up spacing immediately roll backwards - try to mix up rolling so you dont get punished like a clutched fair .

sorry i dont know much about MK american styles haha hope this helps

TOS out

 

[Lex Crunch]

Why has this gone on for two pages? Just use the Counter to break the Mach Tornado, end of discussion. My idiot friends thought they could gang up on me and spam the crap out of the Tornadoes and win, but the counter forced them out of it and I won. They were noobish, but you get it.

 

[bludhoundz]

Counter and Dolphin Slash both beat the Mach Tornado.

If you hit him when he's just beginning it, other attacks can cancel it out as well (I believe nair works).

 

[VietGeek]

Counter and Dolphin Slash both beat the Mach Tornado.

If you hit him when he's just beginning it, other attacks can cancel it out as well (I believe nair works).

Indeed, grabbing him out of it is fun since you get free hits in with the jump break release and stuff.

 

[ZHMT]

Indeed, grabbing him out of it is fun since you get free hits in with the jump break release and stuff.

You can grab through the tornado? O.o

 

[VietGeek]

You can grab through the tornado? O.o

On its initial start-up frames, yes.

 

[Shaya]

You can grab through the tornado? O.o

Possible, but not something you'd try to do on a regular basis... If you know what I mean.

 

[Hype]

Just try to make counter as a reflex instead of shield when he tornados.

 

[jinofcoolnes]

Counter also, If you see it coming you can Netuarl B it(almost a free kill if tippers).

also you want to aim at the center of the tornado(that's were meta's body is.)

 

[VietGeek]

Countering is overrated when it comes to the tornado.

It's one of your best options, but...

he can just start up the tornado, DI away from you without mashing B, land with no lag, and walk up to you and Dsmash you.

Mixing up your options is key. Shielding it means you only get 4 frames of lag after MK ends the tornado. Counter has a good amount of lag before you can move again. Plus you can shield ---> Dolphin Slash.

Only neutral B/side-B him if he starts it far away or angles it low to the ground, otherwise he'll run right through SB/stuff DB respectively.

 

[Avsfreak18]

for some reason i play my best marth vs mk

get him off the edge, and practice your timing so you tipper, right as he recovers(or tries to) and gets into your range... if he is over 30% you just knocked off a stock

 

[IDK]

i didnt feel the need to make a new thread about this and it seemed to sort of be on topic with this thread... but anyway my friend steven was telling me about how you can "perfect tip" marths attacks too. supposedly its better than a tip and has a much smaller hitbox with incredibly huge knockback. he said it is never done on purpose though, unlike the normal tipper. anyone know anything about this?

 

[Avsfreak18]

i didnt feel the need to make a new thread about this and it seemed to sort of be on topic with this thread... but anyway my friend steven was telling me about how you can "perfect tip" marths attacks too. supposedly its better than a tip and has a much smaller hitbox with incredibly huge knockback. he said it is never done on purpose though, unlike the normal tipper. anyone know anything about this?

is it possible that its a random event that happens within a normal tipper as a random event type thing.... wow that made no sense

like every 50 or so tippers there is one

 

[Retroking2000]

DI dependent Tippers ,

i dont think there is a perfect tip' hitbox at all ,

 

[ZHMT]

There is a perfect tip hitbox on the charged Shield Breaker, but I think thats about it. I think it does like 2% more and along with that has more knockback. Maybe there is a perfect tip on all his moves, who knows lol.

 

[Pierce7d]

I did once have this theory, but I'm still unsure and don't believe it to be true.

 

[Retroking2000]

There is a perfect tip hitbox on the charged Shield Breaker, but I think thats about it. I think it does like 2% more and along with that has more knockback. Maybe there is a perfect tip on all his moves, who knows lol.

i dont think there is a hitbox like that ,

maybe its just the fact that it is charged and at tipper range . but looks like you are on to something there ? ! ? .

I did once have this theory, but I'm still unsure and don't believe it to be true.

i think this thread has got more interesting

 

[ZHMT]

i dont think there is a hitbox like that ,

maybe its just the fact that it is charged and at tipper range . but looks like you are on to something there ? ! ? .

Well, in training mode with no stale move negation, sometimes shield breaker does 22% and sometimes it does 24%. Both fully charged, and they have different amounts of knockback.

I might not be tipping however. I think this "extra sweetspot" may just be a regular tipper. Simply because of the way Marth hits with his sword with the shield breaker, everything looks like a tipper. If you shield breaker from grab range, the sword still technically hits with the tip (and does 18%), although not a "tipper".

Point is, Mario is sometimes KO'd at 45% and sometimes at 52% from the center of FD.

Charged Close range SB does 18%.
Charged Tipped SB does 22%.
Charged Sweetspotted does 24%.