BBR Weekly Character Discussion #9: Marth

[Marc]

I want Roy back.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Marth is better and didnt get ***** by CCing. <_<


Anyway, I say this and I am not sure if many would agree but, Marth would be higher if it was not for the MK legion.
Yes the matchup is not as bad as it was in the past, but the fact he has to fight against one of his hardest matchups so very often keep him down.

He is still a very solid character and I do think that his performance would reflect this in tournaments if not for the tit with wings.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Marth is the single most under-rated character in this game. He gets underestimated by a lot of people strictly because he was so good in Melee, so they over-exaggerate his weaknesses comparatively.


He has the best overall matchup data in the game next to Metaknight; Marth is really never a bad choice. He has a great deal of range and priority from his sword, superb spacing, a great grab game, and plenty of mixups with his aerials that can lead to grabs, more aerials, or kills depending on the percent.

He can sometimes have difficulty landing a kill move, but so do most characters in Brawl. Generally tippered fairs, bairs, or up airs will do the trick. It might seem as though he would have a problem getting those off, but his excellent grab game and dancing-blade give him plenty of opportunities to pop people into the air; once there, he can fish for aerials and punish with his fantastic spacing and aerial mobility.


Marth does suffer from predictability due to his reliance on some of the same moves repeatedly, but it's not really a problem at all for a good player. It doesn't matter if you fair 20 times in a row and your opponent knows you're going to do it again when you're spacing such that they can hardly even punish you anyway. It's a minor flaw that is mostly irrelevant and doesn't hold him back much if at all.

His Smashes are also punishable but again, he doesn't really rely on them all that much and they're great for punishing frame traps from air dodges, etc.

He's quite good on pretty much any stage, and his recovery isn't really all that gimpable if you know how to maneuver around attacks and use side-b for the extra vertical boost / delay before using up-b.



Grab releases to tippers on MK, chain grabs to death / damage racking on spacies, has the tools to win any matchup, is never at any more than a minor disadvantage...

Marth is one of the best characters in the game, and definitely the most under rated character in the game. He's probably better than every other character except Metaknight and Snake, though not significantly so.

 

[The Real Inferno]

There was a time when I would have looked at anyone and said I believe Marth to be the third best character in the game without blinking. I'm not really so sure of that anymore,, but I still find him to be absolutely excellent. He does quite well in tournaments despite his hardest matchups being very popular character picks as well. Mike Haze has gone a long way to dragging Marth out of the gutter. His current performance in tournaments on the data rankings shows him hovering right around where he is on our current tier list. This suggests to me he's about where he belongs for the time being, with maybe a one spot shift in either direction.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Can somebody please spell out Marth's weaknesses? I don't see many that the character himself (So no match-up difficulties, just flaws the character has) has aside from his punishable recovery. I personally think he is 4th or 5th in the game, but maybe it is because I can't really see his weaknesses too well...

 

[EdreesesPieces]

IMO his punishable recovery is a significant weakness. Even as Peach, I can regularly get low percentage kills on Marth because it's really easy to edgehog him, though I do recognize I can do it because of a Peach unique trait (floating). I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up top 3 or top 4 in the game, but right now I consider him top 5 material.

The thing is that I don't have good arguments against him (I will admit to this) my main thing against him is that all marth players play the same and it makes it easier to read marth than it is to read other characters - i can often predict what they'll do, very often. It doesn't mean the character itself is bad, because that's mind game related, so I don't know if it's just my personal skill against reading Marth or what, but that's why I don't have as much trouble against him (no matter what character I pick) as I do vs Diddy, IC, etc. so I admit to having a questionable argument but I just wanted to say I feel he is easy to read.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

He doesn't have many weaknesses and the ones he does have aren't very significant because of his other tools/options.

• His smashes are punishable, but you aren't dependent on them.
  
  
• He doesn't have a "real" jab, but he has dancing blade.
  
  
• His recovery-- but he has great aerial mobility and dancing blade at the peak of a jump gives a lot of stalling / height. Plus his recovery isn't really all that bad to begin with, it's just moderately sub-par at worst.

He's easily top 4 or top 5. Again I think he's better than everyone but MK and Snake, so I'd put him at 3rd, but I imagine there will be resistance to that since so many people under-rate him.

 

[Marc]

I think it can be considered a weakness to not have a projectile in a game where most other top characters do. Marth has the tools to deal with being forced to approach because his spacing can be kept safe, but he really has no way to force the opponent to approach other than gaining a lead. Matchupwise I think Mr.R only considers Dedede to be (somewhat) bad and my own opinion is that Marth has a very good matchup chart overall, although I would say he also has a small disadvantage vs MK. The character does well in European tournaments (where character variety is quite balanced) and I think he needs to be a little higher on the tier list.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Yeah, DeDeDe is his worst but it's no worse than 6:4 for sure, so that's not even really a problem. I'm not even sure it's that bad, some people think it's only like 55:45 DeDeDe's favor but I know many who think it's 6:4 also.

His issue of not having a projectile might matter if he didn't have his long sword. The other high-ranked character without a projectile also has a sword (Metaknight). I don't think Marth is disadvantaged in the slightest by not having one, his sword range, priority, and aerial mobility more than make up for it as far as I can tell.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Thing is, he doesn't do worse against DDD than like, the majority of the cast. It just "feels' bad for Marth players because they aren't used to having a significant disadvantage. By no means is it a really uphill battle, but I think you guys are agreeing with this already.

 

[Crow!]

Let's talk about the other side of the coin:

For being such a solid character, it seems to me that Marth doesn't get very many matchups which are total **** in his favor. For instance, I always cringe when a player switches from Marth to Ike in friendlies against my Link in an attempt to go easy on me. No, no! I'll take Marth over that combo machine any day.

Also, Marth is much too popular for his own good. Finding a Marth to train against is a trivial exercise.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

See now, I don't hardly see enough Marths. Must be a regional thing.

 

[DEHF]

Atm I feel like Marth should be at the very bottom or A or the very top of B.

Marth's major weakness is his recovery, it gives him a lot of landing lag and some characters can actually gimp his recovery before he can even sweet spot the ledge. Diddy actually has a very time edge guarding Marth, banana throw stops up b which leads into a spike.

Marth's worst match ups are probably MK, DDD, Diddy.

 

[Overswarm]

Marth suffers from being adequate. He's the "mario" of the good characters, and as such will never really excel. To make matters worse, he requires a very precise style of play; you can't get around it with Marth. He needs to hit with the tip of his sword, has %-based grab combos, his recovery has to be perfect, tons of things require lots of attention to detail. This is in stark contrast to Meta Knight's "I press B NOW!" responses.

The fact that there are better characters with more awesome matchups that take less precision to play to get better results means that Marth won't ever shine as brightly. Despite this, Marth is pretty straightforward and is used frequently, resulting in everyone and their mother knowing what to do against Marth; that means he doesn't even get the "unknown good character" boost other difficult characters get.


He also wears a tiara.

 

[T-block]

Marth's worst match ups are probably MK, DDD, Diddy.

Wanna elaborate? I've always felt Diddy loses to Marth.

 

[OverLade]

Diddy dominates marth pretty hard.

Basically every time Marth jumps and Diddy is holding a banana, Marth can't do anything but land. If he lands an aerial on Diddy's shield, Diddy's banana throw is still fast enough to catch the lag, if he lands somewhere else, Diddy can hit his landing lag with a banana.

You basically lose as soon as you jump (obviously there will be mix ups etc etc but Marth gets *****).

 

[GimR]

If you want to know why Diddy beats Marth ask Neo

 

[gallax]

Diddy definately gives marth a really hard time. Fighting gdx with my marth is such a hassle. You really have to be patient with the matchup. Its possible to win though for sure. I wouldn't say diddy has such a great advantage though. Small albeit, but nothing too unmanageable.

Marth is a character, i feel, that you either have to main or spend A LOT of time using to get comfortable with his spacing and to do well with in tourney. The mentality here is "Why should i put so much time into marth and be good when i can put the same amount of time into mk and be AMAZINGLY BETTER?" This is a good point and is one thign that hold him back in the tiers.

 

[Pierce7d]

. . .

Marth beats Diddy, lol

Anyway, I really started thinking this character was bad, but recently I've undergone another skill jump, and I realized how AWESOME Marth is.

I actually think he's the second best character in the game right now. Eh, third. Falco is gay. Snake sucks.

Marth might not have a projectile to camp with, but as I've proven true time and time over, camping is overrated. Marth has every single tool he needs to approach really well except a broken forward roll (and he can do without it.) He punishes rolls, spot dodges, and even shielding exceptionally well. He has AMAZING damage and pressure strings, and gimps like a beast. Because of Marth's high aerial mobility, and massive disjointed range in every direction, Marth can simply follow his hits, and either swing again, or punish an air-dodge. He also has a couple of true combos, and stupidly good frame traps. Also, because of the massive threat he possess to strike, he can bait dodges extremely well, and this gives him the kills that many Marth's struggle to get. He's able to punish very consistently.

He's floaty, so he's easy to juggle for some, but this weakness is only exploitable in a few match-ups (mainly MK and DK). I'll get to his hard MUs later. Marth's weaknesses include
A) Short characters/crouching. Having to commit to aerials is really bad for Marth.
B) Laggy Dair. Having few landing options make him easy to juggle. High mobility, and a Neutral B reversal help to solve this, but it's still an issue.
C) Powershielding. This is hard to do against Marth, but it ***** him.
D) Sacred Spotdodges (Falco, Toon Link, Yoshi, Link, Pikachu). These occassionally (a bit too frequently for my tastes) completely evade Dancing Blade, and that leaves Marth very open.
E) Consistent SDI out of Dancing Blade is VERY, VERY effective. Fortunately, my sparing partner can do this, so it doesn't **** me, but it removes a lot of Marth's bread and butter damage when you make it unsafe for Marth to use DB4, and reduces his follow-ups and pressure.

Umm . . . yeah, that's it, lol. I'll grant that his approaches are very susceptible to Dragon Punches, but who's aren't? I'd say it's probably Shuttle Loop that gives me the most trouble at high level play vs. MK.

People that have trouble killing with Marth are doing it wrong. ALL of Marth's aerials K.O. pretty reliably. When fresh, Fair kills MK around 130 at the edge, Uair will always kill around 120-130 when fresh. Bair edgeguard K.O.s at like 90, lol. Dair K.O.s MK guaranteed at roughly stage high around roughly 54% (and that's with a perfect meteor cancel.) Tipper Fsmash is a bit stronger than DK's Fsmash. Usmash and Utilt kill around 120. Dsmash kills around 130 (has lots of range and hits on frame 6). Untippered Fsmash SUCKS at killing, but it's good for covering a lot of space and hitting opponents off stage/killing them at 140 near the edge for airdodging. Dolphin Slash kills around 130 near the ledge, but often catches even the best of opponents in bad DI, and can be used off stage to finish an opponent off remarkably early.

Spoiler

FATALITY

. I often do this to MKs who want to Mach Tornado to go through my edge-guard. Tipper Nair usually kills around 110 from the middle of the stage.

Marth requires a lot of reading, but he's also really good at baiting, so it helps him a lot in this regard. I feel that people that say Marth is "Easy to play, hard to master" is completely correct. Between counter and UpB, even characters with massive range and priority can fall. However, I will say that if the Marth player isn't extremely precise, and doesn't have top notch reflexes, there's no point trying to fight MK. I can semi-consistently DI ftilt, and almost always punish Mach Tornado on reaction, but if you can't do these things, the MU is ridiculously hard.

Marth's platform pressure is arguably the second best in the game. Nair covers most platforms, has virtually no lag, and stabs very well. Ftilt covers MASSIVE range, and hits very high, typically covering platforms excellent, while not having enough lag to really let up pressure. Jab does the same thing (jab2 actually hits slight behind Marth) and sets up a jab lock. Additionally, shield breaker can punish people trying to block platform pressure, allowing for very low percent kills. I'd say that MK shouldn't expect to live from shield breaker at like 60% from pretty much anywhere, and I'll typically get around 60% off MK if I manage to grab him at 0%.

Against most characters that matter, Marth does ridiculous damage from a grab at 0. He can fthrow Fsmash the entire cast I believe, though some characters require a studder stepped Fsmash. However, he often has many better options. Both Marth's fthrow and Dthrow (I'm not sure about the others) are weight dependent throws. However, pretty much all the good characters except Snake are susceptible to Fthrow Nair. Nair is a linker, and true combos into most other moves. Additionally, most people are conditioned to DI in a way that allows them to fall into a Dtilt, which can then be comboed into studder stepped Fsmash, and that deals roughly 44% altogether. This is just one example of a combo string that Marth can do from a grab at 0. Of course, you can always DI the Nair, but you can still read and react to DI since Nair gives Marth time he needs to observe the way his opponent is travelling, and you can land other combos, such as a Uair, which starts a juggle. I also like jab to regrab on MK (the opponent will often shield after jab1), which allows him to be comboed by an Fthrow Fsmash after that. Marth can also Dthrow chaingrab MK 3 or 4 times, and then Fthrow Fsmash, for lots of damage. Or he could just Fair and read a follow up to hit you off stage, then set up a broken edge trap.

Marth's edge traps are legitimately broken. Often, Marth can add on 20 points to a match-up just because if done properly, his opponent doesn't really have options to get off the ledge. In friendlies, I've started just walking away to the middle of the stage, because my opponents waste 30 seconds of the match waiting for me to leave an opening in my ledge traps, or get impatient, and just ledge stall.

Dtilt covers most basic options that involved waking from the ledge, and has little lag. Even if you misspace to punish a roll (which means you're too close probably), Marth can still REACT and punish opponents at this point, generally with front cross Dancing Blade, or turn around grab, to put them back off-stage. No character in the game has a forward air that defeats Marth in terms of range, speed, and maneuverability. The few characters that out-range Marth's Fair can be EASILY reacted to. Only multi-jump characters can Bair from the ledge, but this often takes too long, and leaves them very open to getting shielding and repelled. Dancing Blade is remarkably fast (frame 4) and hits slightly below the ledge, and the first hit strikes targets on the ledge. This is often good for probing opponents, though it isn't to be used often, because it's susceptible to being ledge-attacked. Generally, you are spacing poorly if you could not block any given ledge-hopped attack on reaction. Counter or UpB can block Mach Tornado for an instantaneous punish, or running away, then blocking (this is better then blocking, then running away) is great for punishing as well. Of course, while Marth can punish a phantasm onto the stage really well, Falco will often get this off regardless. And I guess Pikachu is exceptionally hard to edge-guard, though Marth wins that MU anyway.

Ledge-jumping is often the best way to escape Marth when you're trapped on the ledge, but then a double jump is usually required to evade getting hit afterwards, and this lets Marth juggle, which he also excels at. Bair hits really high, as well as laterally, so it can be used to trap even Metaknight against Dair. However, it doesn't have the lag, or the width directly above Marth that Uair has. This means that Marth can set up an excellent trap against most characters by Bairing, and then Uairing to reset the juggle, punishing the airdodge that Bair forced. Uair auto-cancels as well, so Uthrow or Dancing Blade can often be used to hit the opponent back up. At lower percents, Uair true combos into many things as well, and will combo into another Uair until around 60 or more.

Aside from taking advantage of people when they're in bad positions Marth can easily put them into, Marth also excels at neutral. With good patience, and an excellent baiting game, alongside Marth's excellent tools, you can often get the first hit on your opponent. Dancing Blade 1 is not technically safe on block, but it's implied safety comes in the fact that the rest of the move comes after it. If spaced properly, it's very good to start a dtilt trap. If Marth dtilts your shield, he will either stab, use Dancing Blade to stab or punish spot dodge, use Dancing Blade to punish a roll, or chase you with DB1 reset if you roll away, causing you to lose field presence. Marth also has an amazing cross-up game between his ground speed and Dancing Blade, Cross-up aerial Dancing Blade, Nair, Uair, empty SH, pivot grab, etc. Because of the threat of his Fair, Marth jumping at you almost always forces block, which allows Marth amazing freedom of movement. So much implied attack power leaves Marth lots of room to get grabs, and spot dodges are easily punished by Dancing Blade, and good spacing. From grabs, Marth has amazing traps on most characters (all characters that matter). Dancing Blade is also extremely good bread and butter damage, as well as replenishing Marth's moveset, because each hit of it counts individually (as it takes 4 different inputs of sideB). This is good, because Dancing Blade often hits opponents to the ledge to start traps, or regain field presence, and allows Fair to deal more damage, and hit farther, to start traps. It's also good for refreshing Dolphin Slash, so it can be used to kill, in case it was used as a Dragon Punch without intent to kill, or if the opponent DIed it the first time.

Marth with good DI should almost always recover. Marth's Fair beats most aerials in the game, though DK and DDD's Bairs will give him exceptional trouble. Additionally, the thread of Shuttle Loop prevents Marth from following a direct path to the stage, as it cannot be airdodged on reaction. This can force an airdodge, or a transition from a high to low recovery. If Marth has his jump, you should not gimp him. If Marth uses his jump to momentum cancel, you MIGHT be able to gimp him, especially by reading an airdodge (though I frown upon Marth players that airdodge with no jump, over utilizing good DI and taking a hit that won't kill them). Between Dancing Blade stall, the threat of Fair, and Dolphin Slash spaced accordingly, Marth should rarely even fail to recover. He can also often recover very high if necessary, especially if he used his jump to momentum cancel. Fully charged neutral B will allow him to recover to the center of the stage, and a second, consecutive shield breaker will allow him continue using that momentum further into the stage, or B reversed out to evade an opponent in front or below. Shieldbreaker bounced out and then back in is VERY good to evade most traps, especially if Marth still has both jumps. Of course, counter is also good, but often not good to defend against edgeguarding because his forward foot is vulnerable during counter, and easy to hit (even unintentionally) when he's falling towards you. Breversed or turn-around counter is good to help solve this, but I haven't personally implemented this into my game yet. Also, Marth can just Dolphin Slash to defeat most characters who approach him head on with a move that either beats Fair, or one that Marth is not confident in using Fair against. Generally, people don't airdodge when trying to edgeguard, so it's exceptionally reliable, as it's near impossible to read unless overused.

Marth's OOS game is honest mediocre. It's well known that I favor Dair OOS (I think I'm actually the one to popularize this tactic), because Dair hits on Frame 6, and covers a wide area below (like MKs). Of course, this is punishable when blocks, but often it isn't punished, and a full hop Dair will enable Marth to use another action before he hits the ground. Still, this is a punishable tactic. Often, I will simply drop shield and Dash a short distance away, while then using Dancing Blade to reset shield pressure on my opponent. Marth also has a basic retreating Fair or Bair from shield, or he can go into his cross-up game to punish people slow on pressure. He can also just Dolphin Slash out of legitmate pressure except a well spaced MK. His spotdodge is slightly better than normal (the 6th best in the game after the characters I mentioned earlier) so it is a saving grace, but we all know spot-dodge is just typically a bad option. Against MK and smaller characters, Nair OOS isn't very good, since Nair doesn't mimic the sweeping, covering hitboxes of the directional aerials. Of course, Dolphin Slash is a good option, and if you're playing properly, you won't be using it much, so it will be relatively hard to bait against a good Marth.

Marth's floatiness and weight allow him to be exceptionally potent at SDI. However, like MK, he can live relatively long due to a good recovery, good defense and safety (making it harder to land reliable kill moves), and a good momentum cancel. To be fair, I could just be biased, as I pride myself on my DI, and live long with many characters, but as I mentioned, Marth's safety and options allows him to evade getting hit by reliable kill moves. It's far harder to bait him into an airdodge.

Edress, you say you find Marth predictable. I will cosign this statement, because I find Marth's I play extremely predictable as well. However, I assure you that I'm far more creative than your average Marth, and this shows that Marth has potential to be creative.

This post is already very long, so I'll end it here before starting another post going into specifics about his MUs.

BTW, in case you couldn't tell, I'm back to maining this character again. I love him again now.

 

[DEHF]

Wanna elaborate? I've always felt Diddy loses to Marth.

Marth doesn't play too well with bananas, his fair is much better than throwing a banana and his banana throw is kinda slow.

Marth fighting Diddy on the ground is hard because Marth's best move to use is fair and Diddy can punish it very easily if he has banana. Even fighting Diddy in the air isn't easy since Diddy's fair outranges Marth's.

Marth's recovery gets wrecked by Diddy, all Diddy has throw down a banana to stop the up b and spike it.

 

[Count]

Well all the stuff that you say about marth v diddy is fairly true, marth in diddy's face is harder than any character besides maybe meta knight. I think that marth in diddy's face is even hard than meta knight in diddy's face. Also, getting off of the ledge vs marth is extremely difficult. Well spaced nairs by marth shut down the majority of diddy kong's options.

In my opinion marth vs diddy is even.

 

[Pierce7d]

Marth's MUs.

Against MK - 6/4 MK

This is an epic battle, but for the Marth to win, he has to know what to do and expect in every situation, and must know HOW to respond. Metaknight dashing at Marth isn't advised, because Marth destroys his dash in options. Of course, MK has good mix-ups, especially when forward roll and Shuttle Loop are put into the mix, but head to head on a dash in, Dancing Blade wins, and a cautious Marth can counter attack relatively well. This means that MK is best off poking at Marth, and repelling approaches with his various tools.

MK's Ftilt and Dtilt slightly outrange Dancing Blade, and hit one frame sooner (3 vs 4), but since Dancing Blade can be used out of a dash, it will win it's fair share of encounters. Additionally, dash in shield and grab, or dash in and forward roll is very good here. Jumping beats Dtilt fairly well, but not so much ftilt unless your jump is perfectly spaced, and it won't beat MK ftilt2 or ftilt3. Additionally, if the jump is over-extended, it's easy to punish, especially with a grounded shuttle loop. Of course, this won't always work, and Marth's pressure is effective on even MK's shield, as long as you bait SLs and space properly. Like I mentioned earlier though, SL is Marth's WORST ENEMY when used correctly.

Marth can always punish SL. An immediate Fair will always punish it, but it's sometimes difficult to beat the glide attack, even with a shield-confirmed reaction. Uair will always punish it from below, but when the power-drop was discovered, MKs began to use this, and Uair will whiff when SL drop is retreated this way (to execute, Smash DownB while gliding with any character that can glide. Smash Down jump probably also works.) Of course, since this is now almost always used on shield, Dashing in and punishing with Fair or Dancing Blade is effective.

Shieldbreaker also outranges MK on the ground, and can be used to combat tilts as a small mix-up. This is also decent at high percents as it periodically catches mid-level opponents in bad DI off a dtilt.

Knowing that MK has the advantage when poking, I've found approaching and anticipating getting hit by ftilt and then SDIing it is extremely effective. Evading hit three is difficult, but not impossible, and hits 2 and 3 of MK's ftilt actually have a whopping 30 frames of lag. Marth can punish this if he DIs, which lets him in on MK (the hard part).

In the air, Marth wins. His Uair solidly beats MK's Dair, and his Bair does well. Marth's Fair beats MKs at head to head (though the MK has three hits, and is graced with more ease of spacing). Marth's Fair is also safe on block, whereas MKs is not, so if the MK favors to force Marth to suffer through such meticulousness, Marth can simply rely on shield. Both characters can utilize Dash Dancing to great effect (yes, this is still a good tactic), but Dancing Blade makes it more useful to Marth IMO.

Naturally, both characters edge-trap and juggle each other really well, but MK does it better. Dolphin Slash is good for getting out of edge-traps (if your opponent is prone to shielding then just ledge-hop and don't attack their shield, or stand up). Marth has a REALLY difficult time escaping GOOD platform pressure from MK. Poorly spaced platform pressure can be DPed out of by either character.

For killing, Marth has grab release Dolphin Slash on MK, as well as a read into a smash, Dsmash punish, UpB in various situations, tipper Nair (hard on MK), Bair, or Uair. Since Fsmash and Usmash beat Mach Tornado, this isn't too hard. Marth can even bait dodges from MK, and force him to use jumps, and edge guard well. As for MK killing Marth, UpB usually isn't fresh, but a fresh one will kill around 130 or maybe 120. Dsmash back hit will kill around 110. Dsmash front hit near the edge kills around 120 IF fresh. Fsmash kills around 100 at the edge. Nair kills around 120 at the edge. Dair can gimp.

When edgeguarding Marth with MK, bait airdodges by spacing for SL, then hit them with Nair. Or, use good spacing to hover out of Fair range, then strike with your own Fair or Uair. You can also ping with a weaved Mach Tornado. Marth should be avoiding Dair, but obviously use it if the Marth has poor spacing. If you estimate that Marth is going to stall with sideB, delay from hold the edge, or dive into a Dair or Nair to gimp. Also, be sure to DI down to avoid getting stage spiked, as you will be launched under the stage and easily able to recover to the other ledge. If you have good spacing, you can also hit Marth from the back, out of Dolphin Slash, before he sweetspots the ledge. If you hog Marth and he lands on the stage, ledgehop to the FRONT of him, and Nair him offstage. He actually has this much lag. If Marth mixes up falling to the ledge, mix-up holding onto it to hog him. Ask M2k how to use ledge-attack to edge-guard Marth as well.

As Marth against MK, you basically want to utilize the ledge. You must always keep track of how many of MK's 5 mid-air jumps he has remaining. Utilize the ledge to give yourself good spacing and invincibility for the best options. If he tries to Mach Tornado high, ledge-jump into reverse Dolphin Slash is the best option to keep him off stage. If he attempts to line up with the stage, or drop low, maintain a slightly lower height than him so you can defeat him crossing past you with back air. If he tries to drill rush, just counter or Reverse Vertical UpB (Marth's UpB has a horizontal and vertical variation, one of which goes more forward than the other, which is obviously not good if you want to fall back onto the ledge). Don't try and read Dimension Cape the first time they recover, but if they are fond of using it, just anticipate it, and hit them out of the start up. If the MK successfully gets below you, or into prime Shuttle Loop range, just roll onto stage, and prepare a ledge-trap. If they glide, Bair will win, but you can use Counter as well, or Footstool low-glides. If they glide high, just prepare a juggle, since you can't reach that high. This is often the best option for MKs to choose, but also the rarest, because MKs are so comfortable on the ledge against "Not Pierce or another MK."

Basically, the match consists of being faster than your opponent and making better reads into attack strings (and properly responding to Mach Tornado for Marth). MK has an advantage in this, and with his tilts during neutral, but it's by no means unwinnable for Marth, and this is a vastly exaggerated MU. Marth needs to focus on reading his opponent's defenses, to land successful attack strings, while maintaining a solid defense, and MK needs to breach Marth's defenses to put him in heavily uncomfortable positions, and make use of Shuttle Loop to break Marth's momentum. Slight advantage MK.

 

[Pierce7d]

Marth vs. Snake - Even

Snake frikking sucks so much. If you know not to run into broken tilts, Snake becomes way less of a threat. Proper spacing means you'll won't set off or get hit by a grenade (I have gone entire matches without getting hit by a grenade explosion.) Marth is generally too fast to really get hit by C4.

In this MU, Snake must use passive ground spacing to counter-act Marth's approaches. Fortunately for Snake, he has TWO heavily effective ways to do this. Marth cannot reliably approach Snake on the ground with Dancing Blade, because the punishment for losing to Snake's ftilt is a lot worse than MKs, as it's about twice as strong. The moves have about the same range and speed (both hit frame 4) which means if they trade, Snake takes a measly 4%, while Marth takes 7, and is put into frame disadvantage off the trade, so Snake gets another free ftilt for 18%, totaling 25% for 4%. Additionally, Dancing Blade will never fail to set off a grenade. However, Dancing Blade isn't at all useless in the MU. It's great for punish spot-dodges, punishing ftilt2 on block, maneuvering in the air, catching a juggle, edge-clipping, resetting spacing, and a couple other things. It just can't be used to approach.

What that means, is that Marth is going to have to rely on mostly just Fair or reading a dodge. Fair is good, because Marth can hit a Snake trying to ftilt him, and won't set off a grenade when spaced properly. It's hard to breach Utilt with it, but not impossible, and a whiffed Utilt IS punishable, and unsafe on block. Marth can weave in and out of grenades extremely well, and instant toss other threats. Shield breaker also allows him to out-range Snake, and take advantage of both shielding and spot-dodging (which you can't use Dancing Blade for if there is a grenade). Due to grenades, and Marth's shield pressure, Snake will often have a low shield, and this allows for Marth to get early kills on a heavy character.

Now, obviously Snake isn't completely helpless. As I said before, he relies on passive ground spacing to defeat Marth. Of course walking and using Ftilt and Utilt are really good. Also, crawling is highly effective in this MU. Crouching forces Marth to overcommit to aerials, now having to aim for the ground instead of Snake's normally high head. Since Marth will probably be spacing very carefully if he's any good at this MU, this makes landing a Dtilt on Marth approaching from the air more viable than it normally seems. If you block, you're also more likely to produce a powershield, since you have more time until Marth is ACTUALLY withing striking range. This enables Snake to set up his really good grab game, or punish with a tilt.
Snake can also grenade walk, which once against enables him to move forwards and backwards while on the ground. Having two options to do this heavily compensates for his lack of an ability to jump. Marth's dtilt counters a grenade walk approach, but despite Snake's frame 8 grab, the ability to do a boosted walk forward and grab, while being able to adjust spacing forwards and backwards often allows him to outgrab his opponent. Of course, misspacing a swing, or using Dancing Blade sets off the grenade, and if Snake blocks or dodges, this is obviously unfavorable for Marth. Snake can also shield to drop the grenade behind him while moving forward, and tilt, or drop the grenade to the ground with shield while moving backward, and dash attack or DACUS to pick up the grenade while striking.

Of course, if Snake was on defense the entire match, he'd obviously lose, but Dash Attack and DACUS allow Snake to boost forward quickly, and breaks Marth's spacing, even out of a SH unless Marth is at or near the height of his jump. Marth will obviously look to cover this option, but it's effective at punishing a whiffed Fair or an empty landing, and still overall very good in the MU. It keeps Snake moving, and keeps explosives pumping, which disrupts Marth's spacing, and makes Snakes far harder to hit.

Now, very, very often, Marth will be controlling the center of the stage in this MU. Snake needs space to effective Dacus and camp. However, this means at low percent, Marth can often lead to a gimp. You must forgive me, because I might come back to it later, but for now take my word on in when I say that Marth is EXTREMELY good at gimping Snake if he lands a hit at low percent, and I probably do it the best. In fact, I'd say it's likely for Marth to gimp Snake at LEAST one of his stocks. Even Ally will tell you that I am likely to gimp him one of three stocks per match at least (of course I don't mean to brag, and Ally usually defeats me when we play, I just want to emphasis the point that at the highest level of play, Marth has a lot of advantage here).

If Marth fails to gimp Snake, he can rely on juggling to get Snake to a high percent. Chances are, you're looking to kill with Dolphin Slash, or Usmash around 150+, or trying to land a high Uair to kill around 130+. It's still possible to set up an edge-guard K.O. if you know how though, and I typically aim for these.

Snake obviously kills with Utilt after racking damage through grenades and tilts, etc. A good read will enable him to use other kill moves as well. If you're Ally, you try and gimp Marth with Box-Taunt, etc. Nair doesn't work on Marth, you can SDI it or even just UpB the last hit. Bair isn't bad, but it's tricky.

Marth is good at juggling Snake for lots of percent. Pivot grabbing to the front and well timed Uairs. Use your imagination, or watch a good video.

This MU is even. Maybe slight advantage Marth, but that could be bias, as I haven't lost to a Snake in a long time (actually, I haven't lost to Snake in tourney since I last fought Ally, and I can't remember the last time before that.)

 

[Pierce7d]

Marth vs. Diddy - slight advantage to Marth

LMAO. You guys are cute as hell. Bananas don't even come close to ****** Marth. I daresay if you learn how to instant toss, bananas don't **** anyone, but especially not Marth.

First off, Diddy is actually combo food for Marth. While it's hard to start combos on him, Diddy is actually at the perfect weight class with a reasonable enough falling speed to get *****. Outside of bananas (which can be dealt with by reading just like the rest of the game), Diddy actually suffers tremendously when being pressured. Though he has a good dodge set, Marth deals with this fabulously, and learning to just punish Diddy shielding with grabbing is extremely effective. Marth's Fair catches bananas well, and Dancing Blade provides a reasonable follow up. Additionally, Diddy's Fair and Dash Grab (lol) are the only real tools he has against Marth when banana-less (which is how he starts the match btw.) Once under proper pressure, Marth has greater tools than Diddy's defenses to properly wrack up damage and put him on the edge. Diddy also cannot hit a crouching Marth with rising fair, and Diddy's Fair is not safe on block. When on the edge, Diddy has little options to avoid taking much damage, and can be gimped, or receive a LOT of damage in being edge-guarded, and then ledge-trapped. Bananas as well as normal set-ups also provide Marth with many opportunities to damage Diddy Kong.

This is a really complex match-up, and rather difficult to play, but I'll gloat a bit, and say I'm rather good at it. It basically boils down to Diddy controlling the match with bananas when he has them, and Marth controlling it with his sword when there are no bananas, or if Marth takes control of them (NOTE: Marth still controls the match with his SWORD even if he takes control of bananas). Marth can put stupid amounts of ledge pressure on Diddy, and keeping him there gives him no opportunity to get any bananas. Me vs. ADHD boils down to mostly him camping me when he has control of the stage, and me camping back until a banana disappears, or him being stuck on the ledge. Also, considering he trains against me semi-regularly (we've both been busy lately, but normally we practice rather often.) matches concerning ADHD against other Marth's will typically turn into a massacre, because I've taught him that MU extensively.

If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask, although Diddy has some secret weaknesses that I will NOT reveal because I promised ADHD after he taught them to me.

 

[T-block]

I agree with Pierce's evaluation of the matchup.

Marth may not be able to do much with bananas, but he can take control of them very easily. Trying to get to your second banana when Marth is in between it and Diddy is not fun.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Wow, I was sure that Pierce would disagree with me saying Marth was the 3rd best character in the game. Here he is saying he thinks he's 2nd. I'm glad your Marth-hating period is over ^_^

Also yeah, I don't understand how Bananas/Diddy are at all a problem for Marth...

 

[Pierce7d]

No, third is more accurate. I think Falco is probably better.

 

[Sky`]

I feel like Anybody with a good grasp on what Marth's options are can destroy him.

Though it doesn't matter much, without MK, I can see him in the top 5.

But with MK there, it kind of makes me agree with where Larry put him.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I think MK, Snake, and Diddy are better than Marth. They have more universal options to destroy everything. Marth is a solid 4 for me though, I don't think Falco or IC are better.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

I think MK, Snake, and Diddy are better than Marth. They have more universal options to destroy everything. Marth is a solid 4 for me though, I don't think Falco or IC are better.

I could see Diddy as being above Marth-- it's close though. I definitely think Marth is better than Falco / IC though, yeah.

 

[Pierce7d]

I feel like Anybody with a good grasp on what [insert non-mk character here] options are can destroy him.

Though it doesn't matter much, without MK, I can see him in the top 5.

But with MK there, it kind of makes me agree with where Larry put him.

Fact of the matter is, Marth is the one at advantage with real range and pressure. Falco is just broken as all hell. I'm going to dive into more of his top tier MUs soon, but first I'd just like to mention that Marth's MUs are heavily underrated. Often players are like "Marth wins, but he doesn't destroy characters, and goes evenish with the whole cast." This is garbage, and is in fact a result of the Marth boards being too kind/not understanding their character's actual potential in 08 and 09. The truth is, Marth's Fair ALONE shuts down many MUs, SDI makes him **** others (because he can actually punish people when he SDIs, and he gets out of stuff easy, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, a lot of characters just get SHUT DOWN by offensive Marth pressure strings.

Characters with Dragon Punches, LOTS of range, mobility, or both (to at least keep Marth out for a while), or good escapes (Falco's SideB, Pika's UpB, Lucario's Roll) at least have a tool to not get ***** by Marth. Then, it needs to be determined whether this character can attack Marth, or camp him.

If your character doesn't fit this criteria, sorry pal, you actually get *****, probably 7-3 or worse. Plan and simple, Marth has some of the best offensive and defensive stats in the game, and if played properly, Marth makes his opponent's options disappear faster than if he were to drain MP.

And LOL @ characters that use items as a primary source of defense against Marth. I actually sat down and heavily practiced my item gameplay. Marth is STUPID with items, and I feel bad that they ever worked on me.

These are how I view his MUs. Marth's number is first, the opponent's is second.
Meta Knight 4-6
Snake 5-5
Diddy Kong 6-4
Falco 55-45
Ice Climbers 6-4 or 55-45
Marth (Obviously 50 - 50, but offensive Marth ***** defensive Marth, which just makes me even more sure that Marth's offense is broken)
Wario 65-35
King Dedede 45-55
Pikachu 6-4
Olimar 6-4 or 65-35
Lucario 6-4
Mr. Game & Watch 65-35
Pit 65-35
Toon Link 7-3
Zero Suit Samus 6-4
Kirby 7-3
R.O.B. 45-55
Donkey Kong 45-55
Peach 6-4
Fox 6-4
Luigi 75-25 or worse
Wolf 55-45
Sheik 6-4
Pokémon Trainer 6-4 or worse
Sonic 6-4 or worse
Ness LOL or 65-35
Bowser 6-4
Lucas LOL or 70-30
Ike 65-45
Yoshi 6-4
Mario 80-20
Falcon 65-35
Samus 7-3
Jigglypuff 65-35
Zelda 80-20
Link 7-3

 

[MetalMusicMan]

I don't think he has as many 7-3+'s as you're listing there, but I agree that he "*****" people a lot more than what he is given credit for and has several 6-4's.

I also agree that his offensive game is REALLY good and he can completely obliterate certain characters when played aggressively and correctly.


I'd like to hear more about why you think he's worse than Falco-- but I fear it might be pointless since we seem to be polar opposites on our opinions of Snake and Falco. Also I don't want to derail this too much.

 

[Sky`]

Pierce, Wario marth isn't what you say it is.

Unless you really think that Fair ***** Wario. =/

 

[NickRiddle]

Pierce, I like that you think Marth beats ZSS.
That's so cute.

 

[OverLade]

Theorycraft may support those matchup ratios but actuality sure doesn't.

If you can find me an example of a match between 2 top players that supports any of the more "absurd" matchup ratios I'd be happy to agree with you. Just looking at a characters options doesn't tell you how people are mentally able to execute them.

If two players are of equal skill, and both know the matchup, and one is marth, and one is diddy, the diddy player is likely to win majority. The Marth you're probably envisioning when you say he wins all these matchups is at a skill level high above the metagame...which is theorycraft and not reality.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Theorycraft may support those matchup ratios but actuality sure doesn't.

If you can find me an example of a match between 2 top players that supports any of the more "absurd" matchup ratios I'd be happy to agree with you. Just looking at a characters options doesn't tell you how people are mentally able to execute them.

If two players are of equal skill, and both know the matchup, and one is marth, and one is diddy, the diddy player is likely to win majority. The Marth you're probably envisioning when you say he wins all these matchups is at a skill level high above the metagame...which is theorycraft and not reality.

THat depends, if it is within capability of an individual it can be presumed to be done.
So one shouldn't be so quick to toss the word theory craft so easily.

 

[OverLade]

THat depends, if it is within capability of an individual it can be presumed to be done.
So one shouldn't be so quick to toss the word theory craft so easily.

Capability of an individual isn't the same thing as possible, and just because one person can do it doesn't mean everyone can do it or should even try.

The main problem with your assumptions about matchup ratios is that you're basically assuming if Marth plays perfectly then the opponent has no options. This is most puzzling concerning how Wario can possibly be 65:35 or even definitely in Marth's favor.

"Wario can't get past marth's fair"

Wario can airdodge through the first fair and powershield the second one, then attack Marth OOS, I don't see a problem. You have to factor in the window of possibility for Wario to powershield the second Fair though. You can't just look at frame data though because you have to factor in the spacing as which wario dodged the first fair, how the first fair was spaced, how early wario airdodged, how marth is DIing and how quickly as he fairs, as well as the timing of the second fair and the wario player putting up his shield.

People aren't perfectly, and the factors I just described earlier aren't going to be exactly the same way every single time. Depending on the players sometimes Marth will win, sometimes Wario will win.

This isn't even about this matchup, I don't care about the window of Marths fair or wario's airdodge, it's just an example of why that kind of theorycraft to support matchup ratios is wrong.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

The main problem with your assumptions about matchup ratios is that you're basically assuming if Marth plays perfectly then the opponent has no options. This is most puzzling concerning how Wario can possibly be 65:35 or even definitely in Marth's favor.

...


People aren't perfect, and the factors I just described earlier aren't going to be exactly the same way every single time. Depending on the players sometimes Marth will win, sometimes Wario will win.

I don't think Pierce is wrong, he's mostly on point with this because Marth just really is that good. I very much agree with your philosophy, but I don't think that Pierce is guilty of doing what you seem to be saying he is.

It's not all about frame data and windows of openings, etc. and that basing matchups solely on those kinds of things doesn't prove much either way. It's important to always factor in human variability.

That's the exact same reason why it's so important to test Planking in tournament and not ban it based on frame data.

Anyway, like I said, I think Marth has more 6:4s than he is normally given credit for, and Pierce is right to have listed many of the matchups as he did. Some of them are a bit exaggerated, but most of them are quite accurate.

With that said, I still don't think that there are actually that many matchups in the game that are much worse than 6:4 for any character. There are definitely some 7:3's, but not as many as what usually gets insinuated. People really exaggerate a lot of the advantaged and disadvantaged matchups across the board.

 

[Pierce7d]

Why do people still think of Marth like SHDF is a good option? Basically, the ONLY time you should be setting up this option is if you're trying to punish a roll, or you did a rising retreated Fair and it was blocked. No wonder you all think Marth doesn't **** Wario, if you just expect them to brainlessly Fair, rofl.

Marth ***** Wario.

 

[Lee Martin]

Amazing post, Pierce. I agree with everything except your marth vs wario ratio. I'd say its 55-45 imo. Wario has a loooooot of tools to get in marth, and a well timed waft really messes him up.