BBR Weekly Character Discussion #34: Zelda

[#HBC | Scary]

If you're taking a ****ton of damage just to get back to the stage, that sounds like a pretty bad recovery to me. ;;

That much is true, but I'd deal with that over losing a stock at low dmg.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Worst character in the game.

Captain Falcon is pretty bad but that has nothing to do with the Zelda boards.

 

[Browny]

Meh, I couldnt possibly agree with seeing shiek + zelda being higher than sheik alone on the tier list on account of S+Z's tourney results already rather poor, this just seems like a free boost out of absolutely nothing. Im not saying the two combined arent better, but I cant see how it could be higher than where you would put sheik normally seeing as people already use zelda with her and if you removed zelda from the results S+Z get, whos to say how much worse the results will be, theres no solid evidence to work off.

Imo its not too dissimilar to raising DK by accounting for the fact that they may have a secondary for D3 >_<

 

[-Mars-]

Meh, I couldnt possibly agree with seeing shiek + zelda being higher than sheik alone on the tier list on account of S+Z's tourney results already rather poor, this just seems like a free boost out of absolutely nothing. Im not saying the two combined arent better, but I cant see how it could be higher than where you would put sheik normally seeing as people already use zelda with her and if you removed zelda from the results S+Z get, whos to say how much worse the results will be, theres no solid evidence to work off.

Imo its not too dissimilar to raising DK by accounting for the fact that they may have a secondary for D3 >_<

Zelda doesn't make Sheik any better at all. Don't see why people still go on about this.

 

[Browny]

Yeah and that too, but ill let the sheik mains make that comment

would solo sheik mains wants to see her combined with zelda on a tier list? regardless of if it made their overall position lower/higher/same as sheiks alone.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

My Sheik is bettered by Zelda, so I'd vote for them to be together.

However, I'd still like to see where they would be on their own if that could be done.

 

[-Mars-]

Yeah and that too, but ill let the sheik mains make that comment

would solo sheik mains wants to see her combined with zelda on a tier list? regardless of if it made their overall position lower/higher/same as sheiks alone.

I honestly wouldn't care if they were combined; just imo Sheik is capable as a solo character and there are very few instances, if any at all, where Zelda aids Sheik in a matchup.

Switching would be useful if Zelda could actually land a kill move on any character of importance. Only character that Zelda helps Sheik get KO's is most likely DDD.

Straight Zelda helps in ummmmmmmm Icies??? nah Pika??? nah.

So I don't see where Zelda afects Sheiks position on the tier list.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

So I don't see where Zelda afects Sheiks position on the tier list.

that's because your Zelda isn't as good as your sheik.

 

[MrEh]

that's because your Zelda isn't as good as your sheik.

Or maybe it's because Zelda isn't as good as Sheik.

 

[GodAtHand]

If your a good Zelda it really isn't all that hard to land a kill move on Snake, Meta, Icies, Pika, Etc. etc. etc. we have Zelda's here that do it all the time. Obviously if your Zelda sucks and you haven't put any time into her and are just using her as a desperation attempt at killing your not gonna succeed.

I'd rather them remain separate if it is going to affect using Zelda in low tiers, I've won just about every low tier tournament I have entered with her and besides doubles thats where I'll be making money. ^_^

 

[Meru.]

Zelda is underrated and not bottom tier. I hate using underrepresentation as an argument... but simply no one plays her. If you guys had a Jujux, you'd be surprised. Jujux is possibly one the only reasons why Europe thinks Zelda is not bottom tier.

She's better than at least Samus, Jigglypuff and Captain Falcon.

If your a good Zelda it really isn't all that hard to land a kill move on Snake, Meta, Icies, Pika, Etc. etc. etc. we have Zelda's here that do it all the time. Obviously if your Zelda sucks and you haven't put any time into her and are just using her as a desperation attempt at killing your not gonna succeed.

This x1000000000000000000.

Its soooo true. Zelda/Sheik is NOT 'Pick Sheik, rack up damage, downBCstickDownB, reset'. Your Zelda has to be... decent at the very worst to succeed. Besides, sometimes your personal preference or comfort might make you pick Zelda or use her more often than Sheik.

 

[Kataefi]

This was a good read and hopefully drums up SOME activity on the board plz. It's been DEAD!

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Or maybe it's because Zelda isn't as good as Sheik.

this post is fail.

I hope you're smart enough to realize that as well. Having overall worse matchups doesn't mean there aren't certain occasions where Zelda will be better than sheik.

Also, nobody FORCES you to switch from zelda to sheik or sheik to zelda in any given matchup, but having the OPTION gives you an edge that not having the option doesn't. Having more options can only improve your chances of winning. not hurt them. And even if you choose not to take advantage of the option, you're no worse off for having it.







The biggest block to Zelda/Sheik being more highly played has been this kind of stuborn thick-headedness. Even when Zelda was ranked above sheik in the teir list, most sheiks were purists who MIGHT switch to zelda for the KO, and branded Zelda as awful because they had such a hard time doing so. Conversly, the few zelda mains who were dual mainers tended to be more used to zelda's disjoints and better smashes across the board and, so, actually wracked up damage BETTER as Zelda than as sheik.


Zelda/Sheik IS a harder character to play than either Zelda OR Sheik because it is NECESSARY to be FULLY able to play BOTH Zelda AND Sheik. Being proficient with one and poor with the other doesn't cut it. They have very different playstyles and while some people, myself included, enjoy this dichotomy, others (and the list is expansive) do not appreciate the differences between Zelda and Sheik. This leads sheik players to fumble with Zelda's lower mobility and call her "clunky" and zelda players to ignore the precise style required to be safe with sheik and lable sheik as "weak and vulnerable"


The truth is that Zelda/Sheik, as a character, can make herself immune to most chain grabs, can become fast and capable of wracking up damage and gimping recoveries and then can switch right back into a machine with a kill move assigned to almost every attack slot so long as the operator knows how to land them.



I really don't appreciate your trolling Chad. It's neither cute nor is it helpful and it certainly does nothing to move the conversation or Zelda's metagame forward.

 

[KayLo!]

I'd rather them remain separate if it is going to affect using Zelda in low tiers, I've won just about every low tier tournament I have entered with her and besides doubles thats where I'll be making money. ^_^

I really wish PA/NJ had more (or any ) low tier events..... this would be the reason why I don't want them combined on the tier list too.

Zelda needs to stay low tier to have a place where she can make money.

If you guys had a Jujux, you'd be surprised. Jujux is possibly one the only reasons why Europe thinks Zelda is not bottom tier.

That's not necessarily true..... Jujux is in a completely different metagame. He's good, but you can't assume that he'd perform the same way in the US.

I really don't appreciate your trolling Chad. It's neither cute nor is it helpful and it certainly does nothing to move the conversation or Zelda's metagame forward.

Falling on deaf ears, Hedge. He's not gonna stop, and he's obviously not getting room banned or anything for it, so you might as well just ignore it like the rest of us do.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Anyone whos able to beat allys falcon in low tiers should be able to get some respect.

 

[KayLo!]

That's low tiers..... I assumed Yaaay was talking about regular tournament.

I know Jux is very good, but I doubt he's good enough that he'd come over here and raise Zelda up the tier list any significant amount. No offense to him.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

That's low tiers..... I assumed Yaaay was talking about regular tournament.

I know Jux is very good, but I doubt he's good enough that he'd come over here and raise Zelda up the tier list any significant amount. No offense to him.

Prob not. I think he'll have to dominate tournies in Europe for him to be able to do well however here although he'd still be good rep. Since his Zelda is def above average. Maybe after a couple of months in the US he'd start to do better and such.

 

[MrEh]

Big fish in a small pond. Europe is a legit region, but still...

Winning Low tiers isn't as important as actually placing well in normal tournaments. No offense to JuJux or course. I'm sure he would be able to come over here and place fairly in regionals and such (as he probably does in Europe), but nationals would be absurdly difficult for him to make a significant impact in. The fact that our 2nd and 3rd best Zeldas didn't even make it out of pools at Apex shows how lopsided Zelda's matchups are. (No offense to Riot and Scary. Hating on the character, not you guys. :D)

Anyone whos able to beat allys falcon in low tiers should be able to get some respect.

It's not that we don't give JuJux respect. We should all take wins for what they're worth though. It's low tiers after all.

 

[GodAtHand]

The fact that our 2nd and 3rd best Zeldas didn't even make it out of pools at Apex shows how lopsided Zelda's matchups are. (No offense to Riot and Scary. Hating on the character, not you guys. :D)
.

We almost made it! We were one win away each!!!

But you'll also notice in the Apex results (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=283374) that there is a bit of Zelda representation in Earth's results and I can back that up because I saw him use his Zelda. You'll also notice that out of the top Peach's that went (Praxis, Nicole, Peachkid, + change) that none of them made it out either along with no Fox's, Wolf's, etc. etc. mid/low tiers. And all those characters that didn't make it can't have done better than the two Zelda reps that went, because anyone that did better than us is in the final bracket.

Also: Looking at the doubles results I am pretty sure Peachkid and myself are the only team to get into bracket that A) don't use a high tier at all, and B) Have a low tier in it. (could be wrong I am not familiar with 100% of those teams.)

 

[MrEh]

there is a bit of Zelda representation in Earth's results and I can back that up because I saw him use his Zelda.

It's certainly not enough to shake up the tier list though. Using Zelda a couple of matches isn't like Brood going Olimar the entire time and causing massive upsets. Or like San getting 9th with Ike. lol

You'll also notice that out of the top Peach's that went (Praxis, Nicole, Peachkid, + change) that none of them made it out either along with no Fox's, Wolf's, etc. etc. mid/low tiers.

Makes sense. Peach gets ***** by MK, and MK is everywhere. Deltacod and San made it out though, and they use low tiers. Deltacod got 49th with Yoshi and San got 9th with Ike.

San is clearly some sort of demon.

 

[-Mars-]

Or maybe it's because Zelda isn't as good as Sheik.

Exactly.

If your a good Zelda it really isn't all that hard to land a kill move on Snake, Meta, Icies, Pika, Etc. etc. etc. we have Zelda's here that do it all the time.

If your landing kill moves consistently on MK & Snake in singles than I would have to assume that the other player is making critical mistakes? Maybe lapses in concentration?

Not that you aren't amazing with her Riot but I would love videos where your killing your opponents below 150% in singles.

Zelda is underrated and not bottom tier. I hate using underrepresentation as an argument... but simply no one plays her. If you guys had a Jujux, you'd be surprised. Jujux is possibly one the only reasons why Europe thinks Zelda is not bottom tier.

She's better than at least Samus, Jigglypuff and Captain Falcon.

If you guys had a Xyro....than maybe you would see why Samus is better than Zelda.

The biggest block to Zelda/Sheik being more highly played has been this kind of stuborn thick-headedness. Even when Zelda was ranked above sheik in the teir list, most sheiks were purists who MIGHT switch to zelda for the KO, and branded Zelda as awful because they had such a hard time doing so. Conversly, the few zelda mains who were dual mainers tended to be more used to zelda's disjoints and better smashes across the board and, so, actually wracked up damage BETTER as Zelda than as sheik.

On the contrary, most Sheik mains started playing Zelda from the get go......and as the metagame progressed jut found out she was terrible. It had nothing to do with stubborness.

It's certainly not enough to shake up the tier list though. Using Zelda a couple of matches isn't like Brood going Olimar the entire time and causing massive upsets. Or like San getting 9th with Ike. lol



Makes sense. Peach gets ***** by MK, and MK is everywhere. Deltacod and San made it out though, and they use low tiers. Deltacod got 49th with Yoshi and San got 9th with Ike.

San is clearly some sort of demon.

Yes San is not from this world.

 

[GodAtHand]

Me specifically? Or any Zelda? DM just put up a vid where he is consistently killing DEHF at below 100%. I haven't put up any vids at all lately, been too busy. T_T

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I need to work on this whole "putting up vids" thingy.

 

[KayLo!]

I can record now if anybody needs it done.

 

[Xyro77]

Zelda should be separate from shiek. they are totally different from each other and you can play an entire match with her(like you can with ZS). With PT u cant.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Until someone is willing to devote to Zelda 100% we will not begin to see what she's capable of. We'll get a lot of opinions on why she does or doesn't do well. The thing that the difference between players who main low tier characters and players who play high tiers is normally the skill level. A player like san is an amazingly skilled player just like X or shakky. People tend to focus on tiers and make excuse for poor results. When in actuality it's them not their character. On the flip side this is also the reason why someone like m2k is by the best. He puts the most work in and his tourney results speak for themselves.

I've said this before Zelda has a lot of unexplored things that doesn't even get utilized. Call them gimmicks or whatever, I don't say anyone taking advantage of it. However, as long as people can talk and voice their opinions on Zelda and how bad she is. Instead of going into training mode and putting the work in then we'll never know. People seriously need to check their egos at the door.

 

[-Mars-]

Me specifically? Or any Zelda? DM just put up a vid where he is consistently killing DEHF at below 100%. I haven't put up any vids at all lately, been too busy. T_T

Yea in that vid DEHF was doing minimal camping......so I assume the match was a friendly???

Until someone is willing to devote to Zelda 100% we will not begin to see what she's capable of.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Yea in that vid DEHF was doing minimal camping......so I assume the match was a friendly???

Like I said check that ego at the door son.

 

[-Mars-]

Like I said check that ego at the door son.

What does laughing at dumb posts have to do with ego's?

If she's got so much potential why don't you main her and prove people wrong? If not then stop saying stupid ****.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

What does laughing at dumb posts have to do with ego's?

If she's got so much potential why don't you main her and prove people wrong? If not then stop saying stupid ****.

One, there's nothing stupid about my post. Two you claiming my post to be stupid is arrogant of you. You thinking Zelda has no potential is arrogant of you. You don't know how much I play Zelda or I train or practice with her. So your arrogance is astounding. No matter what you say or try to spin it you're being arrogant and cocky as hell. Also my post doesn't exclude myself. I'm not trying to talk above and telling you guys to be more like me. I'm just saying there's a lot of things Zelda players don't do or don't take advantage.


When someone does half way decent with Zelda it just gets written off as unimportant like Earth getting 17th and the response being well brood got 2nd with oli. Or you write off the skill level of their opponent. No one's going to prove anything to you because you don't want them to prove it to you. So sit there with your narrow minded, misguided, biased opinions and continue to say how bad Zelda is.

 

[KayLo!]

I'm just saying there's a lot of things Zelda players don't do or don't take advantage.

Like what?

I'm honestly curious to know what you think Zeldas could be doing better.

 

[-Mars-]

Your post is stupid dawg.

 

[Darkmusician]

Just posting to clarify that yes my matches with my Zelda vs DEHF were friendlies. I believe it was in the description.

Also Marsulas hit it on the head that DEHF plays far less campy in friendlies. Even in the money matches he recorded. Which is the very reason why I didn't use Zelda against DEHF in tournament. Sufficed to say, it just wouldn't have worked. He and I both discussed this afterwards in detail and agreed that win or lose that Zelda most likely would not have made a difference. Not after training with DEHF for over a week.

 

[-Mars-]

When someone does half way decent with Zelda it just gets written off as unimportant like Earth getting 17th and the response being well brood got 2nd with oli. Or you write off the skill level of their opponent. No one's going to prove anything to you because you don't want them to prove it to you. So sit there with your narrow minded, misguided, biased opinions and continue to say how bad Zelda is.

Earth goes mostly Sheik if i'm not mistaken?

These opinions of Zelda being bad aren't biased or misguided.......they're just..........accurate. She's next to Ganondorf on the tier list for a reason.

Edit: DM- thanks for clarifying that. Not meaning to deny your skill with Zelda or anything so sorry if that came off as an attack.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Like what?

I'm honestly curious to know what you think Zeldas could be doing better.

The first thing I see is recovery. Zelda's recovery can used in a variety of different ways to get to the stage or to the ledge. However, I never see it used when Zelda is above stage even with the stage slightly above or slightly below.

Then there's nair a savage under use of her best move. Multi hits with the ability to combo into other moves.

Then there's the dtilt I always see zelda go one dtilt > dsmash. Even on the characters with a Bair>Fair are guaranteed it's still not utilized. Or maybe they'll use fsnash.

How many Zelda's jab ? Pivot grab ?

My point is a lot of the Zelda's are playing on auto-pilot. I'm no exception to any of these things. Instead of being willing to get a read on your opponent you're go for the same old same old and the you wonder why you get the same results. I've heard people complain about the same thing for the past year instead of doing something to improve themselves like lets say not be in Falcos jab range they cry about his jab. There are some situations where we fall in to repetitive patterns and do not switch things up enough.

Before you guys write it off as oh man omost that stuff doesn't work against good players and you need to play better players what the **** you you know you wifi scrub go back to AiB. Before all that is said. I would just like to say this if we rule out options for Zelda that is only going to make us more predictable and play right into our opponents hands. So yeah you may not get the follows you want are desire however, let's take Zelda of off auto-pilot and push the envelope a little more. Before we thrown our arms up in the air lets explore every options.

Also I'd like to say that the things mentioned are just a part of it and there could possible be more however, there are just the things that come to my mind right now. If anyone wants to add things then by all means do so. Oh yeah there's also things like ***>grab uthrow shenanigans and others things. Punishing and knowing when to grab are also pretty key. Overuse of da's etc.

 

[Darkmusician]

Don't worry Marsulas. No offense taken. I know exactly what you're trying to say and I respect a player that can keep matches like that in perspective.

Earth also uses a few other characters besides Zelda/Sheik and that's probably what helped him get out of pools as well. Although I'm sure that his Zelda did prove useful in certain matches. Isn't that right Chad?

I do believe that wether it be Sheik or w/e. Back up characters are a must if you plan on using Zelda often in tournament play.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Don't worry Marsulas. No offense taken. I know exactly what you're trying to say and I respect a player that can keep matches like that in perspective.

Earth also uses a few other characters besides Zelda/Sheik and that's probably what helped him get out of pools as well. Although I'm sure that his Zelda did prove useful in certain matches. Isn't that right Chad?

I do believe that wether it be Sheik or w/e. Back up characters are a must if you plan on using Zelda often in tournament play.

That's such a ****ing double standard. Ally will go snake for a whole tourney whip out his falcon for certain MU's or for a game or set. All of sudden Falcon is the greatest **** since slice bread. What the **** ever. Earth got 17th at a national while using Zelda give the man his ****ing probs. I don't give a **** if he used MK then went Zelda against a falcon or gannon he still used her. give credit where credits due. This is soooooo ****ing unreal I swear.

 

[-Mars-]

That's such a ****ing double standard. Ally will go snake for a whole tourney whip out his falcon for certain MU's or for a game or set. All of sudden Falcon is the greatest **** since slice bread. What the **** ever. Earth got 17th at a national while using Zelda give the man his ****ing probs. I don't give a **** if he used MK then went Zelda against a falcon or gannon he still used her. give credit where credits due. This is soooooo ****ing unreal I swear.

No. What happens is people go "**** Ally has a sick Captain Falcon!" or "DM's Zelda is amazing". People still keep it in perspective and understand that those characters blow though.

 

[MrEh]

What the **** ever. Earth got 17th at a national while using Zelda give the man his ****ing probs.

No he didn't. Using Zelda once or twice in pools doesn't mean you plowed through the brackets with her. If Earth had went only Zelda, do you think he would have placed as high? Of course not. That's why he went other characters most of the time, because Zelda sucks.


Vex got 17th at Apex using Bowser. Do we rave about Bowser's "newfound potential"? Of course not, since he rarely used Bowser in the first place. He went his other characters most of the time.


If you want to rave about character potential, rave about San. He went ONLY Ike and got 9th. That certainly holds more water then "used Zelda once or twice and got 17th."

 

[KuroganeHammer]

This is getting silly.

Anyway, I think Zelda's not as bad as people make her out to be.

Her moves in themselves are okay. Except maybe fair. People wah on about SDI'ing Up-smash, but it like, never happens. lol

Bottom tier? Probably. Definitely not worse than Link or Ganon though.