BBR Weekly Character Discussion #31: Captain Falcon

[Darky-Sama]

I'm sure it's possible for Wario to use a smash. Although you rarely see Wario staying on the ground close enough to you to be forced to spot dodge, so yeah. I wouldn't be surprised if he could hit Falcon before he's able to start jabbing, but his spot-dodge is really awkward too. It might just be smarter to keep trying to grab him. Falcon might take the smash attack damage, but if the grab connects, he'll still get the free grab release either way.

I was actually talking about it being useful against other characters though. Between each of Falcon's first set of jabs until it connects, as in the 1 frame punch. {At least, I believe it's one frame, could be wrong, but it's still ridiculously quick.} It's useful in other cases, but I never looked into frame data to see if it's good for spot-dodge punishing after a missed grab.

Dash -> Shield -> Drop Shield -> Jab works if they spot dodge though. I use that quite a lot. lol

 

[kaak]

Wario shouldn't be committing to a boxing game because he's at an disadvantage in that situation. Jab does in fact shut Wario down in close quarters, but it shouldn't be a common situation.

Shield approach or dash grab approach are absolutely horrible against Wario, don't even bother bringing it up again because that would be exactly what Falcon should NOT be doing in this matchup.

Falcon does not have to commit to laggy moves in this matchup. Nothing he does should be as laggy as Bite. Bite beat almost everything you have, but only if you commit to a full forced approach. Whiffed Bite > lolgrab for Falcon, if you tend to get Bitten a lot try to fake your approach more often (and learn the timing on how to punish it).

You guys are severely getting derailed, stop *****ing about grab armor and whether or not jab acts as proper walling (lolwhat) against Wario.

Facts:
- Uair ***** every approach Wario has.
- Wario can't commit to a ground game.
- Wario has difficulty killing Falcon.
- Falcon has less difficulty killing Wario.
- Falcon can grab Wario, and he should at least keep up the threat of attempting to do so. Wario sometimes has to give up a lot of space or stage control in order to fully ensure himself of not getting grabbed.
- Wario cannot camp Falcon.

Regardless of all those facts, this matchup is still in Wario's favor. It is, however, easily Falcon's best top tier MU.

Now stop the whining and usage of terrible debating skills. You are hyping your own character too much and most of you don't know **** about Wario.

Regards,

~Chair

 

[Zeallyx]

Wario shouldn't be committing to a boxing game because he's at an disadvantage in that situation. Jab does in fact shut Wario down in close quarters, but it shouldn't be a common situation.

Shield approach or dash grab approach are absolutely horrible against Wario, don't even bother bringing it up again because that would be exactly what Falcon should NOT be doing in this matchup.

Falcon does not have to commit to laggy moves in this matchup. Nothing he does should be as laggy as Bite. Bite beat almost everything you have, but only if you commit to a full forced approach. Whiffed Bite > lolgrab for Falcon, if you tend to get Bitten a lot try to fake your approach more often (and learn the timing on how to punish it).

You guys are severely getting derailed, stop *****ing about grab armor and whether or not jab acts as proper walling (lolwhat) against Wario.

Facts:
- Uair ***** every approach Wario has.
- Wario can't commit to a ground game.
- Wario has difficulty killing Falcon.
- Falcon has less difficulty killing Wario.
- Falcon can grab Wario, and he should at least keep up the threat of attempting to do so. Wario sometimes has to give up a lot of space or stage control in order to fully ensure himself of not getting grabbed.
- Wario cannot camp Falcon.

Regardless of all those facts, this matchup is still in Wario's favor. It is, however, easily Falcon's best top tier MU.

Now stop the whining and usage of terrible debating skills. You are hyping your own character too much and most of you don't know **** about Wario.

Regards,

~Chair

Thank you so much.
You posted my points exactly.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Not going to disagree with any of that since I've already stated it in previous posts when we discussed Wario. I don't really see where anyone's hyping Falcon all that much here. We've already agreed that he's a **** character, now we're discussing the usage of his **** abilities. People are focusing too much on Wario here and this isn't the match-up thread.

Save the debate of Wario-Falcon for the export.

 

[Zeallyx]

Not going to disagree with any of that since I've already stated it in previous posts when we discussed Wario. I don't really see where anyone's hyping Falcon all that much here. We've already agreed that he's a **** character, now we're discussing the usage of his **** abilities. People are focusing too much on Wario here and this isn't the match-up thread.

Save the debate of Wario-Falcon for the export.

Discussing this is actually on topic.

And the hype happens.

 

[Darky-Sama]

On topic, yes- but do we need an in depth discussion on Wario? Especially since we all have recently discussed this in both our board and the Wario boards? lmfao.

We've all stated this a couple dozen times in the past two months.

 

[kaak]

It's worth discussing if people apparently still fail to rightly apprehend the matchup. Stating that it's been a main topic for several weeks now only places more emphasize on the fact that it requires more attention considering the failure that is the People's matchup comprehension.

I kindly ask of you to no longer debate the issue of whether or not this topic should be debated, since all of the aforementioned is clearly true.

Regards,

~Chair

 

[lordhelmet]

2Knee wtf you just contradicted a bunch of points you previously made in this thread by agreeing with Chair. Make up your **** mind.

Other than that, Chair is pretty much 100% correct.

Edit: I think we got derailed because Shadow Link and his maximum ignorance thought Falcon had NO good MUs or anything close to good in high tier..

 

[Darky-Sama]

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you Chair, but there's currently three topics that it's being discussed in. We shouldn't waste time tainting this thread with something that people aren't going to see eye-to-eye on anyway; and the results are going to end up all over the place.

Glad you posted your opinion on it though.


I'm still sticking with my statement that Falcon can use his dash -> shield -> whatever as a good means of keeping in a character's comfort zone. Besides, if he doesn't pull up a shield, then he's going to keep moving or use a dash attack because his dash's ending frames are horribly lengthy- and crouch canceling doesn't exist in this game.

 

[Zeallyx]

On topic, yes- but do we need an in depth discussion on Wario? Especially since we all have recently discussed this in both our board and the Wario boards? lmfao.

We've all stated this a couple dozen times in the past two months.

Apparantly, not enough.

 

[Zeallyx]

2Knee wtf you just contradicted a bunch of points you previously made in this thread by agreeing with Chair. Make up your **** mind.

Other than that, Chair is pretty much 100% correct.

Edit: I think we got derailed because Shadow Link and his maximum ignorance thought Falcon had NO good MUs or anything close to good in high tier..

No I didnt. You guys emhasized on how wario isn hard/not much of a threat.

I countered that, and so did chair.
And chair posted the ways around what you guys claimed to beeing an amazing feat.
And I posted that it was silly, and he posted why.

Edit: woopsy daisy double post

 

[lordhelmet]

No I didnt. You guys emhasized on how wario isn hard/not much of a threat.

? You used to say it was 3-7 Wario's favor.

Implying jab shuts down wario is really silly.

Wario has more than enough to get around falcons jab.

And stopping all his approaches may work on paper, but come on. Thats just silly.

Thank you so much.
You posted my points exactly.

I'll take that as a yes.

 

[Zeallyx]

? You used to say it was 3-7 Wario's favor.

---​

Did I get that about right?



I'll take that as a yes.

You guys said/implied jab completely shuts down wario. Which is silly.

And are you implying there are no ways around our Uair for wario? What a bunch of sillyness.
Thats all I was saying.

And 7-3 is hard.

And lol@your interwebz tough guy persona

 

[Darky-Sama]

I didn't imply it stopped Wario. I said it was worth looking into because a lot of characters get punished by the jab if they spot dodge a grab.

Just sayin'.

 

[teluoborg]

Whateverrrrrrrrrrr
If you want to keep on talking about this open a matchup export threadddddddddddd

Also hi Chair <3

 

[Zeallyx]

I didn't imply it stopped Wario. I said it was worth looking into because a lot of characters get punished by the jab if they spot dodge a grab.

Just sayin'.

But that isnt nearly as game breakin' as you make it out to be.

Also, have you played other M yet?

 

[Darky-Sama]

Yeah, it isn't, but it's better than jumping all over the place like most Falcons though. Staying on the ground really isn't all that bad if you know how to time yourself and you don't run into stupid ****. lmao

And no, I haven't. I might go trade in some old games and pick it up.

 

[kaak]

I have the feeling I know you Teluo, but alas, I forgot

Aside of that, the main misconception about the whole jab thing is that even though it shuts Wario down in CQ, there's rarely if ever any reason to use it outside of that situation. Theoretically, a Wario player with decent reflexes can SDI that stuff and not really get ***** by it all too hard, but really, Falcon has no reason not to jab in a lot of situations due to excessive safety.


Falcon's shield approach isn't necessarily terrible, but it'll rarely put him in a much more advantageous position.

~Chair

 

[Zeallyx]

Yeah, it isn't, but it's better than jumping all over the place like most Falcons though. Staying on the ground really isn't all that bad if you know how to time yourself and you don't run into stupid ****. lmao

And no, I haven't. I might go trade in some old games and pick it up.

Offcourse it is. I never said it wasnt.

And ah yes, trading in games is a good idea. I might do that, too. (2morrow! *psyched*)

I have the feeling I know you Teluo, but alas, I forgot

Aside of that, the main misconception about the whole jab thing is that even though it shuts Wario down in CQ, there's rarely if ever any reason to use it outside of that situation. Theoretically, a Wario player with decent reflexes can SDI that stuff and not really get ***** by it all too hard, but really, Falcon has no reason not to jab in a lot of situations due to excessive safety.


Falcon's shield approach isn't necessarily terrible, but it'll rarely put him in a much more advantageous position.

~Chair

True.
So saying/implying it is more than that is silly, is all I've been saying.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I see a lot of non sense as usual when ever falcon vs wario is discussed. Uar ***** all of Wario's approaches. Yawn. People really need to stop discussing X moves beats Y move there fore X characters wins. Wario can't camp Falcon......Is this a joke? Wario struggles killing falcon.....another joke? Falcon kills Wario easier.... once again you comedians show up.

Every character has some type of Move that beats wario that's not going to hamper him. Some characters have GR on him that's not going to hamper him. So go for your GR and jab combos and sit there and uair all you want it's not going to help you or change the MU.

 

[Chsal]

Nobody is saying that Uair/GRs or whatever completely **** Wario. What we are saying is that its a reliable option.

And actually yes, GRs DO affect the matchup. Without it the matchup would be considerably worse. Its still in Warios favour, of course.

 

[Darky-Sama]

I see a lot of non sense as usual when ever falcon vs wario is discussed. Uar ***** all of Wario's approaches. Yawn. People really need to stop discussing X moves beats Y move there fore X characters wins. Wario can't camp Falcon......Is this a joke? Wario struggles killing falcon.....another joke? Falcon kills Wario easier.... once again you comedians show up.

Every character has some type of Move that beats wario that's not going to hamper him. Some characters have GR on him that's not going to hamper him. So go for your GR and jab combos and sit there and uair all you want it's not going to help you or change the MU.

My point stands.

This is why I said to avoid the Falcon/Wario discussion here. Stating whether or not something works is fine, but people are stretching it far too much- and for once, I have to say, you're underestimating Falcon's pressure game. I'd suggest that you obtain more accurate data before bringing something that degrading toward Falcon to the discussion. I don't see why any Falcon would just sit there and spam grabs, jabs and uair an entire match anyway, unless they're just complete idiots.

 

[Player-3]

I see a lot of non sense as usual when ever falcon vs wario is discussed. Uar ***** all of Wario's approaches. Yawn. People really need to stop discussing X moves beats Y move there fore X characters wins. Wario can't camp Falcon......Is this a joke? Wario struggles killing falcon.....another joke? Falcon kills Wario easier.... once again you comedians show up.

Every character has some type of Move that beats wario that's not going to hamper him. Some characters have GR on him that's not going to hamper him. So go for your GR and jab combos and sit there and uair all you want it's not going to help you or change the MU.

aren't you that guy who.....


uh............








oh right

you play wifi

 

[lordhelmet]

Lol I played him on Wi-Fi and went about even with his Wario, he must be mad.

Spoiler

Yeah it was wifi who gives a ****

 

[Zeallyx]

*facepalm*

"Look someone doesnt agree, lets mock him."

 

[Player-3]

its not that he doesn't agree

its that hes wrong

 

[Zeallyx]

its not that he doesn't agree

its that hes wrong

I didnt read his post =P

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

My point stands.

This is why I said to avoid the Falcon/Wario discussion here. Stating whether or not something works is fine, but people are stretching it far too much- and for once, I have to say, you're underestimating Falcon's pressure game. I'd suggest that you obtain more accurate data before bringing something that degrading toward Falcon to the discussion. I don't see why any Falcon would just sit there and spam grabs, jabs and uair an entire match anyway, unless they're just complete idiots.

Whenever a falcon main discuss the MU he goes ZOMG grab jab uair. MU even..... So how should i interrupt that? You guys claim that the ground game is in falcon favors because of jab. Wario can't camp for whatever reason not mentioned and it's constantly mentioned how uair ***** all of warios approaches.....

@lordhelmet we played like 3months ago ? I had a feeling you would eventually bring it up but whatever clever I guess.

@player3 I do play offline also although i haven't been to a tourney in a while. Instead of just saying I'm wrong then please explain it to me.

The reason why I said GR doesn't change the MU because one Falcon isn't the only character able to CG wario. It's not polarizing enough for you guys to have the MU impact it's one factor of the MU but that's about it. No one has said anything about the off stage game edge guardging and haven't even said why falcon wins on the ground or is it just because of jab? You guys only talked about Falcon options on Wario and has yet to say anything about Wario's options. . But whatever continue overstating your advantageous and trying to make your character look good.

 

[Player-3]

falcon wario is 55-45 warios favor

you seem to think otherwise

 

[Darky-Sama]

No, people got off topic when I stated that jabs could be used to punish spot dodges and applied it solely to Wario. It was meant to be a general statement for all of his match-ups; for whatever reason that people are saying that it shuts down Wario, I will agree, is stupid. It's not half bad though, his jab is quick, interrupts a character in the air at close enough range so that he's often guaranteed a grab follow-up.

And it's not even the grab release on him that changes it. It's his speed and ability to GET that grab that you're not paying much attention to. Consider a Ganondorf attempting a dash grab compared to a Falcon attempting it. Which do you think would have an easier time getting close enough to Wario? // Now assume that Wario's going to Fair his approach and the Ganondorf shields it, then tries to drop the shield and buffer a dash grab while Wario is spacing himself away. Not gonna be too effective compared to Falcon's ability to do the same exact thing and actually keep within Wario's comfort zone.

That's where most of us stand on the discussion. Wario is limited moreso against Falcon's ability to grab him than he is with most characters.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Ok point taking about the jab thing, it seemed to spiral out of control from the point you made. I do have a problem with you bringing up run speed. I don't see how that's relevant he's not the only fast character with gr options on us. Martha comes to mind. Then you're talking about dash grab which one makes you predictable two increases tripping three limits you options. Normally when people with fast characters like falcon run at me I just bite. They get swallowed cause they can't stop in time. Can falcon dash grab me out of bite?

 

[Tech-Nelium the Shark]

believe it or not this thread is about his next tier placement not the wario MU so everybody is off topic. Falcon boards fail


edit: i wasted my 200th post to tell the falcon boards they suck

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

To get on topic falcon should drop he's a bad character and falcon mains should feel bad.

 

[Darky-Sama]

No, he can't. But he can dash -> shield -> downsmash you out of bite.

Get 'yo teeth knocked out.

That's just going back to 'X' beat 'Y' though. So that's going off topic again. Anyway people, get back to talking about what Falcon can and can't do on other characters.

 

[lordhelmet]

AL is just trollin' now. He's just butthurt that his main gets ***** by random low tiers.

Standing grab (lol) beats Bite if you space perfectly. I'd rather utilt/usmash/up-b him though, or wait til the cooldown and jab->grab.

 

[Zeallyx]

believe it or not this thread is about his next tier placement not the wario MU so everybody is off topic. Falcon boards fail


edit: i wasted my 200th post to tell the falcon boards they suck

The wario MU is a part of said topic.

Fail1

To get on topic falcon should drop he's a bad character and falcon mains should feel bad.

Now you're just trolling.

Fail2

AL is just trollin' now. He's just butthurt that his main gets ***** by random low tiers.

That's exactly what I was debating against.
"WE HAZ UAIR AND JAB! WE **** WARIO!"

Fail3

Triple fail.

gg guyz

 

[Darky-Sama]

I gotta agree with 2Knee now; same reason I said we shouldn't bother discussing it here. It's no wonder people think we're so terrible. lol

That being said, me and Lord Helmet did some testing toward Meta Knights tornado. Falcon actually has quite a few decent options against the 'nado. This knowledge should already be known though; I just didn't realize how useful his downsmash was until I used it in a tournament match- so we tested afterward.

If MK is using 'nado toward him, Falcon can charge the downsmash however long he needs to and release it when MK is just a few paces away where his foot would be during the extension of the first kick of his downsmash. It completely out-prioritizes, no trading hits or clashing. Falcon will continue the downsmash animation after MK is hit.

If MK is 'nadoing in place where Falcon is (which rarely happens, but I've had it done to me) Falcon can hold up a shield long enough for the 'nado to press him outside of the hitbox, then immediately drop the shield and fsmash. Out-prioritizes it as well; but too situational to be considered useful since Falcon's hurtbox is so ridiculously close to the nado during the fsmash's lunge.

-Utilt.
-Falcon Kick.
-Knee.
-Dair.

They also work pretty well, but downsmash is by far the best 'nado punisher. I abuse downsmash against Meta Knight like my life depends on it now. It actually clashes with / out-prioritizes a lot of his attacks.

 

[lordhelmet]

Spoiler

Thank you Darky for changing the topic

I still prefer utilt over dsmash but it's w/e. Falcon kick is still your safest option when MK isn't at a low enough percent to punish you.

This is all theory-craft but if we're ever getting juggled by Nado we might be able to Knee him since were already above him. That or we can aerial FK to hit him out of it of course.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Speaking of, I was able to do that at a higher percentage today. I sorta SDI'd upward while in the nado and the knee came out and hit him, but it flubbed though. With my luck, I'll never be able to do it again.

I'm not even sure how I managed to pull it off because DIing around in the 'nado is like... wtf hard. I actually thought it was impossible for awhile. But maybe me being over 100% had something to do with it. I'll need to look into it more. lol

 

[lordhelmet]

You actually can't SDI nado because it has no hitlag. Pretty sure it's just a matter of DIing up to escape the final hit.