Battle Frontier - PokeCenter Power Rankings

[Terywj [태리]]

sorry, i've had a lot of work this week so i'll do challenges when i'm finished with my hw for my next class

Alright, no problem. Just drop me a VM when you're ready.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Sorry for the double post but the rules in the OP have been updated.

All Ubers from pre-existing Generations, Reshiram, Zekrom, Kyuremu, Genosekutu, and Soul Dew are banned, etc. etc.

Thank you.

 

[Gates]

Can you be more specific as to which Ubers are banned? This brings up a lot of unanswered questions:

• Are Garchomp and Salamence banned, as they were in late Gen IV? If so, why?
• Since you have Soul Dew Clause, are Latias and Latios banned? If so, why even bother having that rule? Is Soul Dew Roobushin a huge threat now?
• Since several pokemon now have Shadow Tag, is Wobbuffet still banned? If so, why him specifically and not Shandera?
• Celebi was Uber in Gen II, is she banned?
  
  and most importantly,
  
• WHAT IF WE ACTUALLY WANT TO PLAY UBERS FOR THESE CHALLENGES? IS THAT ACCEPTABLE OR ARE WE JUST **** OUT OF LUCK?

Seriously, I feel like this is a middle finger to me directly because I'm the only one in the PC who plays Ubers. Tery, I know you hate me, and I hate you too, with every fiber of my being. But we shouldn't let our hatred for eachother get in the way of letting people play what format they want in these challenges.

 

[Kofu]

Soul Dew is probably banned because:
A. It blatantly makes the Latis too good for standard play.
B. It's effects are nullified in places like the Battle Tower
C. It doesn't exist in Generation V yet.

 

[kirbyraeg]

We should really have separate tier rankings, but that honestly means that most other non-OU rankings will be left alone and almost nobody would play them. And people will squabble about Dream World vs. non-DR.

I hate that people don't want to play with non-released dream world abilities....

and considering smogon's superthin banlist, i'm gonna make a team with a whole bunch of fun stuff like tail glow manaphy and subseed skymin.

 

[Wave⁂]

I think an Uber tier wouldn't be out of question, though both the challenger and the challengee (or whatever) would have to agree. Because stuff is so new, I doubt anyone has even touched the new Ubers, and it's kind of unfair at the moment. In the future, maybe you can go around like "CHALLENGE YOU TO MONO-COLOR LITTLE CUP".

 

[Gates]

I've played Gen V Ubers.

It's mostly the same, only with Ditto.

 

[ss118]

Wait you banned Kyuremu?

Take me off.

 

[CT Chia]

Just use smogon rules, it's established stuff and makes sense.

 

[Wave⁂]

Many people would disagree, Chibo.

 

[ss118]

Well at the moment they are smarter than anyone else is being.

 

[Circa]

Genosekuto is banned? Why? Did I miss something since I last played one? Because last I knew he wasn't all that great.

 

[UltiMario]

I propose the following Dream World Ban List AT MINIMUM:

Arceus
Zekrom
Reshiram
Dialga
Palkia
Giratina
Giratina-O
Mewtwo
Kyogre
Groudon
Rayquaza
Lugia
Ho-oh

These are all base 670+ BST Pokemon WITHOUT a hindering ability or other factors that severely weaken the effectiveness of the Pokemon (ex- Slaking). These are all Pokemon that have the highest chance out of all Pokemon to be broken, and it isn't unwise to ban them outright because of this.

However, the following list contain four Pokemon banned by the Pokemon Online team after suspect testing that are not in the previous list of a BST LESS than 670.

Darkrai
Manaphy
Deoxys-A
Skaymin-S

I support the banning of all four of these Pokemon (even if I DO believe the banning of Deo-A probably needs more suspect testing, at this point I feel more comfortable with it being banned rather than unbanned), and would recommend them to be added to the above ban list for the Poké Center Power Rankings. They already have been suspect tested by a third party and deemed broken by one community, and bans on some of the most powerful base 600 Pokemon in the game, there's a good reason to agree with them.

Also, on a personal level, I also feel iffy on Deoxys-N, but I feel like he needs more testing in this new ramped-up metagame before I make final decisions on whether I would support his banning or not.

This is my standpoint on the ban list, any objections please speak up now.

Also, this list is easily editable. If later we believe that other Pokemon are ban worthy, we can add them to this list.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Can you be more specific as to which Ubers are banned? This brings up a lot of unanswered questions:

• Are Garchomp and Salamence banned, as they were in late Gen IV? If so, why?
• Since you have Soul Dew Clause, are Latias and Latios banned? If so, why even bother having that rule? Is Soul Dew Roobushin a huge threat now?
• Since several pokemon now have Shadow Tag, is Wobbuffet still banned? If so, why him specifically and not Shandera?
• Celebi was Uber in Gen II, is she banned?
  
  and most importantly,
  
• WHAT IF WE ACTUALLY WANT TO PLAY UBERS FOR THESE CHALLENGES? IS THAT ACCEPTABLE OR ARE WE JUST **** OUT OF LUCK?

Seriously, I feel like this is a middle finger to me directly because I'm the only one in the PC who plays Ubers. Tery, I know you hate me, and I hate you too, with every fiber of my being. But we shouldn't let our hatred for eachother get in the way of letting people play what format they want in these challenges.

I don't hate you. I can get mad at you sometimes but that's simply anger. I don't know where you get that from. And I don't quite know how or why you hate me, but that's beyond my understanding. I simply wanted to get a set list out there since we're not a huge community like Smogon and cannot reach these suspect bans, tiering, etc. I should have asked for a general consensus first, and for that I apologize.

Soul Dew is probably banned because:
A. It blatantly makes the Latis too good for standard play.
B. It's effects are nullified in places like the Battle Tower
C. It doesn't exist in Generation V yet.

Point C is the main reason why.

Wait you banned Kyuremu?

Take me off.

Just use smogon rules, it's established stuff and makes sense.

Refer to UltiMario's proposal. A finalized list will be implemented, alongside an availabe Ubers Power Ranking, which the ban list will be changed as everything moves along and tiers are settled.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

 

[M.K]

Everyone in this thread needs to take a step back and approach disputes in a respectable manner. It is very clear that the Generation 5 metagame is still constantly evolving even as we type. Rules will not always be catered to meet every person's smallest demand. If you have an issue, bring it up in a respectable manner. Caps Lock and swearing gets you very little respect and draws unnecessary immaturity and disrespect.

Keep it under control, guys.

 

[CT Chia]

Ulti's list is fine except I think the last 4 should be legal for now

 

[UltiMario]

Any particular reason you'd like to throw out there why they should be legal Chibo? The four chosen have already gone through a PO suspect test, and on top of that, are probably the four most powerful of the 600 BST Pokemon.

Darkrai is easily the most powerful 600 BST Pokemon in the entire game, no questions asked. The combination of Dark Void and Nasty Plot is lethal, and virtually forces you to run Sleep fodder and Roopushin to take it down.

Then Manaphy, if this was Wifi, I'd shrug it off and say Manaphy was OK. But it isn't, and we have access to Politoed. RainRest with Hydration is one of the best combos in the whole game, and when you take a bulky Pokemon with decent offenses and make it so easy to get to +6 SpA (or with CM, at least +2/+2, if not more), you're asking for trouble.

Deoxys-A is insanely frail, sure, and sometimes even feels like dying to Caterpie tackles, but, it's still is stupidly fast and has an attack stat far beyond anything else in OU. 180 attack stats are scary even without investment, and makes the behemothic attack stat of Ononokusu seem tiny.

Then Shaymin-S is essentially banned for being stupid. Serene Grace Air Slashes and Seed Flares from those speeds and with that power is and always will be like Jirachi on crack. It simply rips through teams with immense power and all those flinches.

 

[ss118]

Darkrai can gtfo.

Since I don't play with dream world, I think manaphy is fine for the moment.

Honestly, Deoxys-a has been so uber for so long that no one actually plans for it and just ignores it, giving it an even easier time playing in OU than usual. If people treated it just like an additional OU member rather than as an uber, maybe it isn't as bad.

Shaymin-s is annoying, but I feel it falls in the same boat as deoxys-a as unfairly tried.

 

[Wave⁂]

I think you guys should keep in mind that the Pokemon League is NOT a suspect test. I would rather have a questionable Pokemon unfairly omitted from play than to see people abuse an Uber in standard play.

 

[ss118]

If it really is abusable, then let it be abused and we will take it off when it is.

The mentality should be "innocent until proven guilty," not "guilty until proven innocent."

 

[Wave⁂]

The mentality should be "innocent until proven guilty," not "guilty until proven innocent."

Why? There is no reason to do this. There is very much a reason to make sure no overpowered Pokemon are in OU.

 

[ss118]

If it's "guilty until proven innocent," then when do we stop and say that a pokemon isn't overpowered? At least if we do "innocent until proven guilty," there's an end in sight when a pokemon may be "overpowered" in comparison, but dealable.

 

[Wave⁂]

I don't understand your argument. Are you saying that we're going to go down a slippery slope of "X is Uber"? I don't see how that's possible, since we're not making any tiering decisions.

 

[ss118]

If we aren't making a tiering decision for this pokemon league, what are we doing?

But you know what: fine. If we are really going to go "guilty until proven innocent," at least go all the way and completely ensure there is nothing potentially abusable or overpowered. That way we can ensure that the player wins the battles, not the pokemon.

 

[Wave⁂]

If we aren't making a tiering decision for this pokemon league, what are we doing?

I thought this was just, y'know, a way to see who's the best among those on the rankings.

 

[ss118]

And the best players will abuse the most broken pokemon the best.

But anyway, give me a minute and I'll propose a banlist to ensure that players win battles, not pokemon.

 

[ss118]

Sorry for the double post but here's what I propose our banlist should be.

Arceus
Darkrai
Deoxys-Neutral
Deoxys-Attack
Deoxys-Speed
Dialga
Ditto
Garchomp
Giratina
Giratina-O
Groudon
Ho-oh
Jirachi
Kyogre
Kyurem
Latias
Latios
Lugia
Machamp
Manaphy
Mew
Mewtwo
Ononokusu
Palkia
Politoed
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Salamence
Shandera
Shaymin-s
Togekiss
Wobbuffet
Wynaut
Zekrom

 

[kirbyraeg]

Sorry for the double post but here's what I propose our banlist should be.

Arceus
Darkrai
Deoxys-Neutral
Deoxys-Attack
Deoxys-Speed
Dialga
Ditto
Garchomp
Giratina
Giratina-O
Groudon
Ho-oh
Jirachi
Kyogre
Latias
Latios
Lugia
Machamp
Manaphy
Mew
Mewtwo
Ononokusu
Palkia
Politoed
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Salamence
Shandera
Shaymin-s
Togekiss
Wobbuffet
Wynaut
Zekrom

I know your objective in making this banlist was to be comprehensive and ban things that might potentially be overfocusing with regards to the metagame, but you're overreacting a bit on that. Machamp? Togekiss???

I bolded what I disagree with, but honestly beyond that it looks good, it included everything I think should be on the list.

 

[Kofu]

Yeah... Machamp, Togekiss, Ononokusu, Politoed, Shandera, and Wynaunt are a bit much. Same with Wobbuffet. And Salamence, Latias, Latios, and Garchomp.

But then again, I'd rather play with Nintendo's rules for the most part.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Sorry for the double post but here's what I propose our banlist should be.

Arceus
Darkrai
Deoxys-Neutral
Deoxys-Attack
Deoxys-Speed
Dialga
Ditto
Garchomp
Giratina
Giratina-O
Groudon
Ho-oh
Jirachi
Kyogre
Latias
Latios
Lugia
Machamp
Manaphy
Mew
Mewtwo
Ononokusu
Palkia
Politoed
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Salamence
Shandera
Shaymin-s
Togekiss
Wobbuffet
Wynaut
Zekrom

I disagree with the Pokemon I bolded / italicized. Also, I believe Wynaut should be further tested on our own time.

 

[Kofu]

Tery, everything in quotes is italicized.

And it just doesn't make sense; you're against the banning of Kyurem, then you go and propose banning stuff like Togekiss and Machamp.

 

[Wave⁂]

Art is over-emphasizing that he wants skill to be the deciding factor in battles.

 

[ss118]

I stand by all of my choices. Jirachi and Togekiss are banned under the same pretense as Shaymin-s: even worse, they are bulkier and can nullify the opponents speed with paralysis to make flinchhax even worse.

Politoed is banned for support: it doubles the pokemon's speed while also giving a boost to STAB. Sure you can double speed in SS or increase STAB with sun, but only Rain gets the benefit of doing both at the same time. If you don't have the ability to change the weather versus infinite rain abusal, you lose. Nothing is more centralizing than that.

Wynaut can use Evolution Stone and be a copy of wobbuffet minus leftovers/ cutsap.

Ononokusu is banned for the same reason Salamence is: nothing can switch in and turns things into a big prediction and guessing game. Sure it can only run certain moves, but it can often cause a case of stay in and die or possibly switch and get swept.

No other pokemon has a 50% chance of turning what would be a counter into a lost pokemon except Machamp.

I'll add the stupid Ice/ Dragon on the list. I was too persuaded by how much it sucked in practice to consider it's theoretical effects...

 

[UltiMario]

There are two possible things with this:

1. Art is trolling.

2. Art isn't trolling.

For 1.
I proclaim that **** art if you want to troll here GTFO and let us work on this. Your immaturity isn't making things better here.

For 2.

Spoiler

Sorry for the double post but here's what I propose our banlist should be.

Arceus
Darkrai
Deoxys-Neutral
Deoxys-Attack
Deoxys-Speed
Dialga
Ditto
Garchomp
Giratina
Giratina-O
Groudon
Ho-oh
Jirachi
Kyogre
Latias
Latios
Lugia
Machamp
Manaphy
Mew
Mewtwo
Ononokusu
Palkia
Politoed
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Salamence
Shandera
Shaymin-s
Togekiss
Wobbuffet
Wynaut
Zekrom

I disagree with the bolded above. Anything in red is "I dunno and I don't care", pretty much I'm not with you nor really against you.

Now, for your explanation

I stand by all of my choices. Jirachi and Togekiss are banned under the same pretense as Shaymin-s: even worse, they are bulkier and can nullify the opponents speed with paralysis to make flinchhax even worse.

Have you lost your god**** mind? It's not like either of these Pokemon got a boost from Gen IV where they were obviously not broken. Shaymin-S doesn't need to rely on Thunder Wave is a reason its so much better. A lot of the stuff that wrecks Jirachi is immune to Twave, or is **** like Suicune who is like 12HKO'd by Iron Head so it doesn't give a ****. Skymin can tear apart so much more with Seed Flare/Air Slash/Earth Power/HP Ice than Jirachi can do with a SubTwave Iron Head Set. Don't even get me started on that pile of **** Togekiss. You literally NEED TWave to do its magic or its a waste of a team slot. Oh, and priority like Mach Punch (That hits Jirachi and Kiss Neutral, and Skymin NVE) doesn't help either of them.

On top of that, Skymin has a SubSeed set that, while now slower than Erufuun's, he actually has power behind it to KO any opponents that could be problematic to Subseed. Skymin serves several roles without needing to absolutely rely on a move with multiple immunities in order to function to such power, and has better STAB and coverage options than Jirachi and Togekiss combined.

Politoed is banned for support: it doubles the pokemon's speed while also giving a boost to STAB. Sure you can double speed in SS or increase STAB with sun, but only Rain gets the benefit of doing both at the same time. If you don't have the ability to change the weather versus infinite rain abusal, you lose. Nothing is more centralizing than that.

Yet you neglect to mention Ninetales? It has Chlorophyll users, which can be just as bad as Swift Swimmers if your team in unprepared. It also allows Solarbeam to be used to hit opposing Waters extremely hard. Sun technically gives more benefits than Rain, so what's with only mentioning Politoed. What gives? On top of that, Sand gives you bonus attack AND Special Defense. Every weather has their own ups and downs, and rain's big up is Manaphy.

Oh right, because you forgot that it's not that Drizzle makes Pokemon broken, it's that Pokemon make Drizzle broken. Times have changed, and now we must adapt.

Manaphy used to make it so that you would basically lose if you didn't have TTar, Abomasnow, or Ninetales on your team. Ban Manaphy, the only unstoppable rain behemoth has been slain, and Rain rebalances itself. I can also clearly tell you lack experience in the Gen 5 Metagame. Since the earliest days, I've used the exact same team. No weather starters. I've ripped through every kind of weather team out there. The only things my team cannot handle well are Balloon Doryuuzu and Manaphy, and at times I can even work around Balloon Doryuuzu, but Manaphy slays me again and again. With the removal of Manaphy, not Politoed, makes Rain manageable.

Wynaut can use Evolution Stone and be a copy of wobbuffet minus leftovers/ cutsap.

I've done calcs on this before. Wynaut with evolution stone is like almost 90% as bulky as Wob or something like that. With no leftovers to avoid 2HKOs that Wob would take as 3HKOs. Wob can actually switch into something with his considerable bulk. Wynaut gets close, but doesn't achieve that glory. Also you've seemed to have forgotten that Encore got nerfed to 3 turns, fixed, which makes Wob and Wynaut less menacing.

I find it just plain ridiculous people still believe that Wynaut, even in Gen IV, or hell, even Gen III, could possibly be Uber. He was grandfathered into that tier because people are too busy wetting their pants over Shadow Tag, and now that the ability has come and shown us that the Pokemon make the ability Broken or not(Gochiruzeru got Shadow Tag, and no way to abuse it, and it definitely will never get banned over it), so now we actually have to think about this.

Ononokusu is banned for the same reason Salamence is: nothing can switch in and turns things into a big prediction and guessing game. Sure it can only run certain moves, but it can often cause a case of stay in and die or possibly switch and get swept.

Ononokusu has no Fire moves nor any special attacking power. He has a tremendous attack stat, but no real way to outright beat Nattorei, Skarmory, and other physical walls. On top of that, stuff like Roopushin can actually get into Ononokusu unless its like CB Outrage and just plain maul it with Mach Punch. Onono is slow, frail, and has no qualities other than a powerful outrage to even compare it to Mence with.

No other pokemon has a 50% chance of turning what would be a counter into a lost pokemon except Machamp.

He's been doing this since Gen IV. Ghost types are even more common now to take Dpunches, and even includes stuff like Desukan that can't get paybacked hard, and Slowbro too, who now is a completely viable, probably OU worthy Pokemon thanks to Regeneration. There are more Machamp Counters than ever, and while he's still pretty powerful, he's no more powerful than Gen IV.

Kyruem or whatever isn't even broken in theory. Do you realize how bad it is in practice?

As a note, I've tried tfour different Kyurem sets. All out sweeper Scarf, Specs, LO, and bulky Frozen World Abuser

All of them sucked.


Overall, I feel like you've neglected to realize in Gen V there's a new power creep in town and what could easily be Uber in Gen IV just... isn't. I feel like this is all theory and not stuff you've tested in practice.

 

[Gates]

Arceus
Darkrai
Deoxys-Neutral
Deoxys-Attack
Deoxys-Speed
Dialga
Ditto
Garchomp
Giratina
Giratina-O
Groudon
Ho-oh
Jirachi
Kyogre
Kyurem
Latias
Latios
Lugia
Machamp
Manaphy
Mew
Mewtwo
Ononokusu
Palkia
Politoed
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Salamence
Shandera
Shaymin-s
Togekiss
Wobbuffet
Wynaut
Zekrom

Remove everything that's been crossed off and add everything in bold and I'll agree with that banlist.

I stand by all of my choices. Jirachi and Togekiss are banned under the same pretense as Shaymin-s: even worse, they are bulkier and can nullify the opponents speed with paralysis to make flinchhax even worse.

That's just stupid, especially given how prevalent priority users are right now.

Politoed is banned for support: it doubles the pokemon's speed while also giving a boost to STAB. Sure you can double speed in SS or increase STAB with sun, but only Rain gets the benefit of doing both at the same time. If you don't have the ability to change the weather versus infinite rain abusal, you lose. Nothing is more centralizing than that.

First of all, like every weather condition has some associated ability that's associated with either boosting speed, healing, or boosting attack.

A                              Weather Condition
B  [u]               |     Sun     |    Rain    |    Sand     |    Hail    |[/u]
I  Speed Boosting | Chloryphyll | Swift Swim | Sand Paddle | None       |
L  Power Boosting | Solar Power | None       | Sand Power  | None       |
I  Power Boosting | Flower Gift |            |             |            |
T  Defensive      | Leaf Guard  | Hydration  | Sand Veil   | Snow Cloak |
I  Defensive      | Flower Gift | Dry Skin   |             | Ice Body   |
E  Defensive      |             | Rain Dish  |             |            |
S

Dealing with weather is extremely easy if you know how to and if you have a reasonably bulky weather user of your own. If you played Ubers you'd know how to deal weather since Kyogre is the 800 lb gorilla in the room that every team has to deal with somehow (well, 776 lbs, but either way he'd take the same damage from Grass Knot so whatever).

Wynaut can use Evolution Stone and be a copy of wobbuffet minus leftovers/ cutsap.

If you're not running Leftovers or Custap, what you're left with is a dinky little piece of crap that has less than half as much HP as its evolution, won't have equal stats even after the Evo Stone boost, and can't recover or abuse Destiny Bond. The only format that you could consider banning Wynaut in is LC, and even then you'd probably just ban Evo Stone.

Ononokusu is banned for the same reason Salamence is: nothing can switch in and turns things into a big prediction and guessing game. Sure it can only run certain moves, but it can often cause a case of stay in and die or possibly switch and get swept.

If you're going to ban every sweeper who's hard to come in on, then we'll be left with a format where Calm Mind Blissey is the best sweeper. Ononkonfodnoj is almost as easy to revenge kill as Shedinja because it's so frail and has a speed stat that screws it over. It also has like 45 SpD and 22 HP, meaning that anyone's Icy Wind will OHKO it, let alone Ice Beam.

 

[ss118]

Sunny weather has pokemon that double speed in it and has pokemon that power STAB in it, meaning they have to divide between breaking stall and breaking offense. It's much less underwhelming than rain, which does both.

Also don't insult my knowledge of Gen V. I know perfectly well how it works.

And I know how well Kyurem sucks. I mentioned something along the lines of "I'm sorry, I was too influenced by my experience with it to think of it as broken theoretically."

I've never been good at trolling, and honestly I'm not knowledgeable about it to attempt it on purpose. I'd say this is more "making a political point."

 

[Wrath`]

All I have to say is that Kyuremu,Genosektu,Garchomp,Salamance and Latias should be usable.
And that of the all the 5th Gen pokemon Resh and Zek are the only clear ubers.

 

[UltiMario]

Also, whats with the conflicting opinions art?

I'm pretty sure you're trolling up this joint because your calling Pokemon unfairly pointed at as Uber (such as Deo-D and Skymin) and in the same breath you're banning them as well as things significantly less powerful.

Stop it.

Also can everyone at least agree on my old minimum banlist + Darkrai?

Which, again, is:

Arceus
Zekrom
Reshiram
Dialga
Palkia
Giratina
Giratina-O
Mewtwo
Kyogre
Groudon
Rayquaza
Lugia
Ho-oh
Darkrai

 

[ss118]

Yeah I like that one.

 

[Wrath`]

I'll agree to that list if Skymin is banned.