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Basketball Thread

theeboredone

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Solid win by the Heat. Can't really complain about much. I thought the game was lost for OKC when Durant stupidly picked up his fourth foul. You figure he'd learn at this point to STOP REACHING IN. Then Brooks proceeded to sit down WB for a long period of time as well.

Those 2 on bench + fouling 3 point shooters = critical point in game.

Also Durant missing 2 free throws. Smh.
 
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whatd we miss on wiki?

quiet 30/15 from lebron.

i dont think the reverse layup foul was that bad. from the angle from high up it looked like he was going for the near side dunk that he turned into a reverse after harden pushed him off course on the way up. i was ok with that one. there were others that i didnt like. thats home court for you though.

Those 2 on bench + fouling 3 point shooters = critical point in game.

Also Durant missing 2 free throws. Smh.
that was painful to watch, even as someone rooting for the heat. Harden had a seriously bad game. its his job to keep the offense rolling when the other two are out, and he failed his assignment miserably.

lmao @KD talkin **** at wade after hitting a shot over him



"too small"

also, the league punishing flopping?

 

theeboredone

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That made me lol.

Also, when Harden flopped on LBJ, I dunno why they called a blocking foul. I mean...there was hardly any contact. Should have played on imo.

WB was super tenative in the fourth quarter. Maybe he was trying a bit too hard to get KD involved.

I'm really mad at Harden though. He's been so inconsistent so far. I'm expecting a much better game from him on Tuesday
 

shadrach kabango

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Wade was brutal down the stretch. He looks done. No explosion. All he has is a pump fake no one is biting on.

Benching Durant for so long was a terrible coaching decision.

Thank you, Scott Brooks, for gifting the Heat that one.
 

theeboredone

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In all seriousness though, I think 3 of Durant's fouls were pretty stupid. Two of those were reach ins, where you just...if you're already in foul trouble, learn to defend without reaching. He's only 23, but two things I've noticed people never criticize him for are his team defense/rotations and boxing out.

And I know he's a scrawny butt, but there's no way you're gonna take a charge against LBJ lol. Just wrap him up hard.
 

Masmasher@

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the one where he went straight up and down against wade was just a bad call.

all in all they didnt show their usual finesse down the stretch.
if durant keeps getting into foul trouble they are going to lose the series.

as competitive as he is in wanting the assignment of lebron he has to guard him alot smarter.

and harden was just silly on those fast breaks there was points he tried to go 1 on 3 in the open court and got tied up at the basket.
just really poor decision making and making bad turnovers.
i even cringed when he made the alley oop pass to durant who if not for his incredible reach would have missed it.
it was going deep and might have ended up in the stands.

hopefully they come out with a full intent to play 48 mins next time they can steal a game here maybe even 2
 
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LOL so illegal. thats pretty bad. whats worse is crawford is RIGHT behind him. he seems to even move out of the way.

i dont think WB wouldve hit it anyway, but yknow whatever. this kind of thing probably happens a lot

question for the thread

in light of Thabo's recent emergence as a total ****ing bad ***

who would you rather have playing D at the 2?

Thabo, or Tony Allen?
 

theeboredone

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I'd still take Tony Allen. He seems a bit more consistent, and on some nights can give you offense as well from the perimeter. Thabo has them long arms though, but he misses too many layups lol.

Honestly, I think the best way defensively for OKC to beat the Heat is stick WB on Wade and Thabo on LBJ. WB seems to do a pretty good job against Wade. If KD is on the bench, that defensive slot works really well.
 
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im kind of surprised at how bad durant was late in the game

halfway through the third he had 21 points on 13 shots. then he went out with that wade pump fake foul. he only produced 4 points on 6 shots for the rest of the game.
 

theeboredone

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I still don't understand why people fall for that Wade pump fake. Scouting report shows he loves it + his jumpshot is super shady. Don't send him to the foul line. Make him shoot over you.
 
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not the reaction i expected from charles. im pleasantly surprised.

its interesting though. i remember reading an article about how we're in some ways less tolerant as a society now than we were a century ago. for example, we've already had a gay president. no one cared. now i see it as a talking point on tv.
 

shadrach kabango

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"I thought Perk had probably his best game of the series," Brooks said. "He was active, he was defending, I thought he did a great job on [Chris] Bosh. He was rebounding offensively and defensively and he was really plugging the paint. They didn't get a lot of points in the paint, and that was because of Perk."

(For the record, the Heat scored 46 points in the paint and shot 35 free throws.)
Thanks, Scott!

Sources told the Post that, last week, Wade also reached out for a trusted friend and adviser to come to him. Tim Grover, the founder and owner of Attack Athletics, is best known for all his years training Michael Jordan, and has been working lately with Kobe Bryant in Germany. After returning to the United States, Grover went with Bryant to Los Angeles, when Wade requested he come to Miami. With Bryant’s permission, Grover flew to South Florida, arriving on Saturday, watching Game 3 of the NBA Finals from AmericanAirlines Arena on Sunday night, scheduled to stay a few days to work on Wade’s body and mind.
The first step is admittance. At least Wade knows he has a problem.
 

tarheeljks

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heat are well designed to defend harden. they play tremendous pnr defense and typically play good transition d (when they aren't committing lol turnovers) and those are harden's bread and butter. they are also wising up and not falling for his shenanigans in the lane. specifically when he overextends his arms so that people foul him when trying to contest/strip. he gave lebron an easily steal down the stretch trying to bait a reach; he's often more interested in drawing a foul than getting a shot up once he gets over the screen

that said, i expect him to break out of the funk at some point, but he will have to work for it. it's not like his shots just aren't falling. he prob needs to pull up more often coming off the screen, granted that is easier said than done. prob also hurting him quite a bit that perkins has been on the floor a lot. he and collison run a sexy pnr, but the heat have clamped down on that since game 1 when collison had like 2 or 3 easy dunks. harden also needs to play better defense. his defensive strat pretty much consists of reach/reach/flop and he not only gets burned, but commits stupid fouls, which neither team can afford to do. being in the penalty hurts against anyone, but is esp costly against these two teams.

also, tbh i actually agree that perkins played a solid game 3. he had a bunch of oreb and defended bosh pretty well. i'm absolutely not saying that makes playing him defensible, but i think he was a net positive for them in that particular game. they gave up a lot of pts in the paint and fta, but they prob would have done so w/ibaka or collison in. woyas fans will tell you that's just the tradeoff for playing small lineups. boost your offense, but your d gets hammered. better spacing and creation/passing with an extra perimeter player, but it's more difficult to defend the lane and your bigman is exposed to more fouls.

anyway, the bad news for thunder fans is that since perkins played fairly well he will prob continue to play ~30 mpg, if not more, and brooks will leave collison to rot on the bench. and fwiw, i think collison's lack of min are as big a problem as ibaka's. ibaka is kind of feast or famine defensively. obv a great shotblocker, but will hang them out to dry sometimes by overhelping (this is esp a problem if he is the only big on the floor). collison is a better pnr defender which counts for a lot against the heat. not saying collison should play more than ibaka or anything like that


also that gif is hilarious but durant has never fought rwb for the ball :troll:

edit: i guess a lot has been made of harden playing poorly on offense b/c he has to play d, but idk. in general i agree that the energy required to play on both ends gets overlooked, but harden in particular doesn't play a particularly physical or taxing style of d. he just reaches and often dogs it. maybe he has poor stamina, rarely logs a ton of minutes
 

tarheeljks

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yeah, there definitely need to be penalties that affect games. preferably the games where flopping occurs, but if it has to start out as retroactive enforcement that only affects later games then that's fine. i don't think simply fining players will be a sufficient deterrent though, esp in the playoffs
 

theeboredone

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It's too hard to judge flopping on the spot. Unless the ref is looking right there, it's hard to administer a penalty when you see a player fall down. A guy can get over aggressive as well. I think like NFL head hits, fines and suspensions will come later on after the game.

WOW. Even the great Red Auerbach hated flopping.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IK3bvlyzpg
 

Masmasher@

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thats why 2 min replay is so good.
and i think stern wants rating so hes only gonna do this with the superstar teams and not treat every team the same.

and this is especially great news for the clippers.
who now have to improve their game.
especially chris paul and blake grfifin.
who instilled the culture of flopping and ***** *** tendencies into their culture.

and lets go thunder treat this like a game seven.
 

shadrach kabango

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The problem with Perkins isn't defensively but offensively. I shudder to think how good the Thunder would be offensively with Perkins banished. There was a post on TrueHoop a year back that showed the dramatic deleterious effects of having two non-shooters on the court at the same time.

Collison is huge because he creates turnovers via his charges. Ibaka is vital because he is a knock-down jump-shooter and also creates turnovers. Perkins is a glorified Jason Collins.

By the way, the James Harden for No. 2 overall pick? It's pure conjecture and was likely never actually proposed, but if I'm Oklahoma City I think long and hard about that. I pick Ibaka over Harden.

I also like imagining Westbrook-for-Rondo-plus-two-No. 1s or something like that. Or Westbrook for Rondo, Bradley and a No. 1.

Rondo-Harden-Sefolosha-Durant-Ibaka

Rondo-Bradley-MKG-Durant-Ibaka

A lot of entertaining and effective possibilities.
 

tarheeljks

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agree wrt perkins. he really hurts them on offense. i thikn he made up for it last game on the glass but in general he is nothing special on the off glass. i think brooks is rightfully concerned

i think harden is much better than ibaka, but on that particular team he might not be given their salary situation? idk harden could be really ****ing good and i don't see anyone in this draft really, not even davis, that would make me want to give him up. i am not high on gilchrist at all. i see little difference in terms of projections b/t him and like the #6. then again keeping the band together sounds all well and good but i am not the one facing millions of dollars in luxury tax penalties. their mistake was likely paying westbrook-- i always felt harden was the one to keep b/t the two-- but one can hardly blame them for extending westbrook
 

theeboredone

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I think Harden can be a cornerstone in a franchise, just not the franchise player. He's too inconsistent for me, and while I know he's really young, it's kinda sad to watch how he has trouble dribbling past Battier and Miller at times. He's athletic, but not scary crazy athletic.

I don't think you could get two first picks let alone one with a WB and Rondo swap. I mean, Rondo is such a pure point guard, where as WB is his opposite. The only difference is their age.

Maybe OKC should have listened to Skip Bayless and traded WB for CP3 straight up.
 

tarheeljks

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you are selling harden way short. it's not battier and miller, it's the guys the behind/around them that are causing him problems. harden obliterates most defenses, including some good ones. the stats speak for themselves there-- but the heat are not most defenses. they recover and trap like no other team in the nba

edit: but yes the thunder should have etaken paul if that offer was ever on the table (i'm kinda skeptical that it actually ever was), but emotional attachments and what not prob clouded their judgment.

harden is not a freak athlete, but so what? he's a very good athlete-- he has amazing body control which is an overlooked aspect of athleticism and that makes up a lot for lateral agility, which is agree he lacks somewhat. he's also long and bouncy-- and is tremendously skilled on top of that. it's extremely rare to find that sort of combination. he's made a # of difficult finishes in this series despite his struggles. he has very few true holes in his game on offense; biggest problem right now for me is that he is an awful defender, but most are weak defenders at his stage (though i do worry about that b/c he seems particularly bad). and even though you noted the fact that he is young, it still feels like you're not putting enough emphasis on it. he's in his 3rd year, and is arguably a little behind the typical development curve b/c his team is so good and he doesn't play 35mpg every night like he would if he were on a rando team. he just cracked the 30 mpg mark this year. he'd probably missed out on like half a season's worth of minutes due to the thunder's meteoric rise


he's 3 years in, is already a very, very good player, and it's clear that he has plenty of room to grow. what flaws do you see that classify him as a guy you can't build a team around? he's a bad defender, but he's got the "physical tools" to be competent. if the barometer is "i don't think he can be the best player on a championship team," then ok but i don't think that's a sound way to evaluate players b/c at any given time there are probably not many more than 5 players in the nba who fit that mold and they likely a few years of drafts.
 

theeboredone

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I'm not selling him short. I still don't believe he's a franchise player, but he can be a great number 2 on any team. Last year, he had his coming out party per say in the playoffs. This season, he played extremely well. However, once the playoffs started, after the Dallas series, he's been rather inconsistent for me. You already noted his defense being bad, which surprised me to be honest. However, I always thought of him to be a good perimeter shooter as well, and that has dropped off as well.

I am not talking about when the Heat trap him on the pick and rolls. When he gets those iso situations with 10 seconds left on the shot clock, he ends up settling for that step back Manu jumper. For whatever reason, he's having a hard time breaking his opponents down in this series when he's given that one on one opportunity. It was a bit similar in the Spurs series as well. Not as good of a defensive team, but for example when he hit that game winning 3 over Leonard...he couldn't blow by him no matter how many shake and bakes he gave him.

I mean, when Scott Brooks made the dumb decision to bench both WB and Durant in the third, Harden could not generate anything for himself or his teammates. Though they did stink on the defensive end as well. Fouling 3 point shooters galore.

Like I said, he's not "elite" or "franchise" status, but he is a great number 2 to have in most scenarios. However, if your goal is to win a championship, then I need to see Harden get better. He better step up tonight. Assuming he does, that means he's shown up for 2/4 games this series. I also hope he takes another big step next season.

And the reason I say all this is, when he becomes a FA, GMs are gonna throw money at him like he is a Number 1 franchise player. I just don't think he's that guy per say. Bring him on board to a team that needs that one extra piece, but don't expect Harden to be the guy who will be your top guy, carrying you up the ranks.
 

shadrach kabango

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James Harden had a nice little season but let's not get it twisted: Manu Ginobili (his most popular comp) has had at least eight better ones.

I believe Ibaka has a lot of room for improvement. He's the same age as Ibaka but history proves that big man develop more slowly than perimeter players. To wit, Ibaka has never had an opportunity to be "The Man"; meanwhile that was the entire reason Harden went to Arizona State.

It is unfortunate Ibaka has been largely reduced to a spot-up shooter on the Thunder. That said he's still turned into one of the best pick-and-pop players in the NBA (seriously, look up the numbers at Hoop Data: he ranks 7th in FG% from 16-23 feet at 46 percent and ranked 20th last season at 42 percent).

In Game 2 (I believe), one play was telling to me with regards to Ibaka's potential. The Heat blew up a Thunder pick-and-roll, and the ball was dumped off to Ibaka in the post. Late in the shot clock, isolated, Ibaka had to make something happen. He used his superior athleticism to get to the other side of the rim and convert a reverse layup. That is a play I think he can do a whole lot more of given the opportunity.

He shot over 73 percent at the rim in '10-11 and nearly 70 percent this season. A mobile big man who can finish, block shots and make the defense pay for leaving him undefended at 18 feet? I would unquestionably give him the max over Harden.

Harden is immensely valuable offensively for his unique ability to finish (over 70 percent at the rim) and stretch the floor (58.5% eFG on 4.7 attempts per game) but he does not offer the overwhelming athleticism or high motor you want on the defensive end. He is also closer to a finished product than Ibaka. If you doubt this, again, history is on my side: perimeter players tend to peak around age 24. Another knock against Harden is that seemingly the bulk of his production comes against opponents' second units.

He is, like Ibaka, a huge beneficiary of playing off of Durant/Westbrook, but unlike Ibaka that is a much larger concern because Harden's value is coming from his offensive capabilities. How does that change when you put him in the starting lineup and send him against the LeBron James' of the world?

theboredone is right in that Harden cannot garner blow-bys. I wrote what amounted to nearly play-by-play notes of Game 1 and 2, and it was astonishing how many possessions were simply blow-bys by James, Wade, Westbrook or Durant. That is where most of the value of being an elite NBA player stems from: being able to create easy opportunities.

Again, this is where the Manu comp comes into play. That's fine; Manu was a max player in his prime. But two key differences: one, Manu was a plus defensive player; two, Manu's mid-range game was superlative.

A point saved is as valuable as a point earned. Manu creates turnovers by forcing steals and drawing charges. Harden does not. To be fair, that does not mean that he will not. Yet he's playing 30 to 33 minutes per game. He does not (or is not) exerting the energy when coming off the bench; how will he do this when made a feature option? This is the main reason I do not feel he is worth a max contract.

As far as Michael-Kidd Gilchrist is concerned, I cede to Hollinger (I do not and never will watch college ball):

As I noted with Leonard a year ago, wing players -- especially bigger ones -- with strong Draft Rater marks virtually never fail. Of the eight players to rate above 13 in the past decade, the worst among them was Josh Childress. Five of the players have played in an All-Star Game, and Rudy Gay may play in an All-Star Game soon. The seventh player is Leonard.

This year, we have two names to add to that list: Dion Waiters and Michael Kidd-Gilchrist. Kidd-Gilchrist is probably the safest pick on the board -- a big wing who plays defense, has strong stats and comes with no character questions. From a risk-aversion perspective alone he should be a top-five pick; I have him third on my board after Robinson.
 

The Real Gamer

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I still have no idea why Ibaka would say something like that it's just going to add more fuel to LBJ's fire and everyone knows he's a man that just cannot be stopped this year.

I just realized the Heat are back in the same exact position as they were last year... up 2-1 in the Finals, but the way that they've gotten to this position was radically different from the last. Last year the Heat cruised (for the most part) past everyone in the playoffs to get to 2-1 in the Finals. This year they had to literally scrap there way here on multiple occasions. Last year's Heat team was arrogant and cocky thinking they had the rest of the Finals in the bag. This year's Heat team is still humbled from their Finals collapse last year. Last year LeBron was trying hard to be a villain and was played extremely mediocre throughout the Finals as a result. This year LeBron is playing some of his best basketball and is just being himself.

I could be completely wrong, but I just got a feeling that this is the year when the Heat finally win it all and redeem themselves... or this could be the Miami Heat Epic Finals Collapse Version 2.
 
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im confused. harden talk that im not a part of? wth...

as much as i love harden, if im the thunder, i'm offering ibaka the max. his combination of skills as a freak athlete his size is ridiculous. big players are just harder to find, and he has a lot of potential as a low post offensive threat in the near future, which the thunder could use more than another perimeter player.

harden looks like he's gonna get fat. that said, he's a good athlete, an excellent decision maker, can shoot from anywhere on the floor, great finisher, and he's a good passer. he's inconsistent right now, but most 3rd years are. i think he has a great future ahead of him. he's like a hybrid pg/sg, only he's more point guard than shooting guard, as opposed to WB who's a hybrid 1/2 that plays more like a shooting guard.

Harden played 30 mpg this year, which means he spent plenty of time against starters. im sure he'll be fine. i think its more a consistency and conditioning issue for him.
 

theeboredone

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I wouldn't offer Ibaka max. He really hasn't shown me that much from last year to this year. We'll see where he is next year. He improved defensively this year, but his post D is still suspect (hence why they have Perkins), and while he can make that jumper, that's all he has to his game at the moment.
 
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