Banning Bayonetta in Tournaments

[Cutie Gwen]

Luigi had a clear set of weaknesses to counter his grab game so that's why luigi wasn't winning tourneys left and right. Bayo is winning a ton of tourneys consistently and is carrying players to victory who wouldn't be so successful without bayo

Once people learn the matchup I can guarantee Bayo won't be carrying anyone anytime soon, especially because if this is indeed true, she's got loads of crosshairs on her from the patchers

 

[Muster]

Any and all comparisons of Akuma to Bayonetta are now invalid. Bayonetta has multiple weakness. Tough to exploit at times, yes, but Akuma being untouchable removes his low HP. That's disgusting

Something i don't believe was mentioned before is the fact that akuma had a true block combo with his red fire balls, so he could hit you once then lock you in the corner indefinitely to cheese out a round (not that he needed to, surpassing all other characters in every other way) edit: also he cannot be dizzied.

Once people learn the matchup I can guarantee Bayo won't be carrying anyone anytime soon, especially because if this is indeed true, she's got loads of crosshairs on her from the patchers

I believe the tourney results from the last 2 months a few pages back say that Bayonetta was in 8th place for 1st pace wins despite being the 3rd most played character in the past two months.
Does anyone have comparative results for pre nerf luigi, diddy, and sheik?

These people always have top players telling them that they just need to SDI to escape her combos. The question is always asked on streams; has anyone ever done it? We are always told to just DI better but there is no single video evidence out there of someone successfully escaping Bayos combos when done correctly.

It took years for Melee players to learn to SDI Fox's uthrow uair combo consistently, the progress players like hyuga have made in two months is exemplary compared to that.

 

[Scribe]

It took years for Melee players to learn to SDI Fox's uthrow uair combo consistently, the progress players like hyuga have made in two months is exemplary compared to that.

You even posted a gif of it on Page 17.

So that answer's @Browny's question. We do have actual, verifiable proof of someone escaping Witch Twist with SDI.

 

[MarioMeteor]

This has nothing to do with the thread really, and judging by your history of posts, it's a fact you enjoy messing with people. I advice arguing this in a PM

While I concede that it I do in fact find extreme amusement in messing with people, I was pointing out that comparing Luigi to Bayonetta was ridiculous. And you hardly have room to talk, you were talking about Akuma, which has even less to do with Bayonetta's current state.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

While I concede that it I do in fact find extreme amusement in messing with people, I was pointing out that comparing Luigi to Bayonetta was ridiculous. And you hardly have room to talk, you were talking about Akuma, which has even less to do with Bayonetta's current state.

Bayonetta was compared to Akuma by Browny, so Akuma got briefly discussed for comparison sake

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Dunno if this is just me, but why the hell should we have to learn SDI for one move in this entire game? I'm sorry, but that's pretty dumb in my opinion. Like, in Melee, you could SDI a lot of stuff, and it became pretty useful in many situations, match-ups, etc. In Smash 4 there are very few times you need to learn the tech, Bayo being the main instance. I just think it's silly that I have to learn this pretty foreign technique just to keep myself from being comboed in a single MU. Also annoyed by the fact that the players who are telling us "just SDI" like it's soooo easy probably can't even do it themselves. I guess I'm just annoyed that I feel like I have to know more about the opponents character than they do in order to have a chance at winning.

 

[Yoshister]

Why isn't there a "She's OP but not ban-worthy" option?

 

[ARISTOS]

Dunno if this is just me, but why the hell should we have to learn SDI for one move in this entire game? I'm sorry, but that's pretty dumb in my opinion. Like, in Melee, you could SDI a lot of stuff, and it became pretty useful in many situations, match-ups, etc. In Smash 4 there are very few times you need to learn the tech, Bayo being the main instance. I just think it's silly that I have to learn this pretty foreign technique just to keep myself from being comboed in a single MU. Also annoyed by the fact that the players who are telling us "just SDI" like it's soooo easy probably can't even do it themselves. I guess I'm just annoyed that I feel like I have to know more about the opponents character than they do in order to have a chance at winning.

You should learn to SDI Ryu Utilt, for starters, especially given you play Fox and Falcon.

You should also probably learn to SDI MK Uair, Lucas Nair.

Just because it's underexplored doesn't mean you get to just skip out on it.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Point is that a character that outright forces players into playing lame just so that they have the lessened risk of getting caught in a bad spot by Bayo is an issue, and one I think could easily be fixed by simply making her combos less capable of ripping into bigger characters.

Again, give the character a nerf that makes it harder to connect these ladder combos at low percents, but easier at higher percents, and give Witch Time a similar mechanic that makes it less effective at low percents than high percents so that it's much less of a safety net and more of a tool to assist her in KO'ing at higher percents; which would be ALL I'D NEED for me to consider her to be balanced. She's not exactly perfect, but her tools are so effective that she does give a number of characters a hard time (especially the bigger heavies). If she had a clear disadvantaged state (early percents), advantaged state (high percents) and neutral state (medium percents), than Bayo would be fine for me.

It's that she seems to have an answer to even her supposed disadvantage state is where I draw my complaint from. Sure, she technically has one, but it's easy enough to work around since she basically has a ladder combo that REQUIRES her opponent to not only know how to SDI, but exactly how to SDI out of her combos, not to mention Bayo has the best advantaged state in the entire game.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

You should learn to SDI Ryu Utilt, for starters, especially given you play Fox and Falcon.

You should also probably learn to SDI MK Uair, Lucas Nair.

Just because it's underexplored doesn't mean you get to just skip out on it.

Ryu was the other example I could think of, but you are right, Fox and Falcon against him is a pain in the ass. I play against a highly skilled Ryu on a weekly basis and getting stuck in tilts is quite annoying. Anyways, Lucas' nair will almost never lead into something as bad as Bayo's WT will. And you could argue that MKs Uair isn't as bad after the patch. Though I haven't tested it much, I don't find that I fear his uair as much as I used to.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Point is that a character that outright forces players into playing lame just so that they have the lessened risk of getting caught in a bad spot by Bayo is an issue

Which is why Ice Climberd are banned in Melee because you always have to be on edge and out their grab range as much as possible

 

[Dagon97]

Why isn't there a "She's OP but not ban-worthy" option?

she isn't op, she loses to characters such as and imo. Cloud can stay out of Bayonetta's range with ease and easily bait out witch time. I am pretty sure there are option selects to solve that issue (I am not 100% sure about that). Rosa can keep Bayonetta out easily and make it very difficult for here. Dabuz vs 9B is a very good example of this

 

[Scribe]

You should learn to SDI Ryu Utilt, for starters, especially given you play Fox and Falcon.

You should also probably learn to SDI MK Uair, Lucas Nair.

Just because it's underexplored doesn't mean you get to just skip out on it.

As a Ness main, I also want to add PK Fire to that list. Maybe f-air, but if you don't SDI out of PKF, you're diddly-darn ****ed.

she isn't op, she loses to characters such as and imo. Cloud can stay out of Bayonetta's range with ease and easily bait out witch time. I am pretty sure there are option selects to solve that issue (I am not 100% sure about that). Rosa can keep Bayonetta out easily and make it very difficult for here. Dabuz vs 9B is a very good example of this

I've heard that Bayo has trouble with zoners in general.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Which is why Ice Climberd are banned in Melee because you always have to be on edge and out their grab range as much as possible

Except killing Nana makes the Icies legitimately awful for that stock unless you have the ability to come back with Sopo.

Bayonetta is basically the Icies condensed into one character with absurd combos.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Except killing Nana makes the Icies legitimately awful for that stock unless you have the ability to come back with Sopo.

Bayonetta is basically the Icies condensed into one character with absurd combos.

You seriously think a character who can get you from 0% to 999% with ease is comparable to Bayonetta? First of all, good IC players would have likely grabbed you when trying to kill Nana, second, Bayonetta's combos CAN be escaped from! Meaning if Bayonetta starts a combo, you can DI to escape, with IC, you can literally just as well drop the controller

 

[Greward]

you could try to mash out from IC grabs

which was as effective as DI against bayonetta combos

 

[Cutie Gwen]

you could try to mash out from IC grabs

which was as effective as DI against bayonetta combos

Not really. There are 2 ics, mash out on one, the other grabs you. AFK and Witch Twist can be DI-ed and SDI-ed out of, it just requires you to know what you're doing

 

[rules94]

Comparing Luigi with Bayonetta is ridiculous? Pre patch Luigi and Bayonetta are very similar imo.. Both are annoying to deal, have combos that you need to DI well, you can be death at low percent, easy mode combos(sorry not sorry), semi kill confirms(tornado). Does that means that he need the nerf? no, Luigi combos were super annoying and very scary in the same time, they were nerf because of the people, he was pretty good in meta and his still good, in my opinion comparing Bayonetta with Luigi is not ridiculous at all.

 

[Scribe]

Point is that a character that outright forces players into playing lame just so that they have the lessened risk of getting caught in a bad spot by Bayo is an issue, and one I think could easily be fixed by simply making her combos less capable of ripping into bigger characters.

Okay, but here's the thing.

Playing "lame" to some extent is a necessary part of any matchup. In order to learn and improve, you sometimes need to take it slow, let your opponent come to you, and react to their unsafe options as opposed to just pressing buttons and rushing in. This especially holds true for a heavy character like Charizard. I'd highly recommend BornFree's video on the subject of "playing lame" (It uses SFV as an example, but it's a general fighting game thing, even if the mechanics involved are different, and in the context of Smash, it definitely applies in the Bayonetta matchup). Omni also did his own video on the subject of playing lame though it's not as much of a proper guide as it is an editorial video in defense of it.

 

[Delta Chae]

Not really. There are 2 ics, mash out on one, the other grabs you. AFK and Witch Twist can be DI-ed and SDI-ed out of, it just requires you to know what you're doing

You clearly don't know much about competitive Melee. If you mash out of Popo's grab Nana can't regrab you, desyncing with that level of precision is borderline impossible because if the ICs player grabbed you odds are they were going for the wobble and had Nana in a position to set that up. In that case Nana will still be in endlag when you mash out and will not be able regrab you. You also don't seem to understand just how hard it is to get grabs at the highest level of Melee, especially against Fox players that don't screw up their inputs. I personally don't have a dog in this fight since I don't play Smash 4 competitively very often but with that being said please do not make stupid comparisons. If Bayonetta does indeed turn out to be a problem then that's far more than ICs will ever amount to in Melee.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

You clearly don't know much about competitive Melee. If you mash out of Popo's grab Nana can't regrab you, desyncing with that level of precision is borderline impossible because if the ICs player grabbed you odds are they were going for the wobble and had Nana in a position to set that up. In that case Nana will still be in endlag when you mash out and will not be able regrab you. You also don't seem to understand just how hard it is to get grabs at the highest level of Melee, especially against Fox players that don't screw up their inputs. I personally don't have a dog in this fight since I don't play Smash 4 competitively very often but with that being said please do not make stupid comparisons. If Bayonetta does indeed turn out to be a problem then that's far more than ICs will ever amount to in Melee.

My apologies, I remembered it wrong

 

[drogoth232]

-snipped annoying reaction pic-

You seriously think a character who can get you from 0% to 999% with ease is comparable to Bayonetta? First of all, good IC players would have likely grabbed you when trying to kill Nana, second, Bayonetta's combos CAN be escaped from! Meaning if Bayonetta starts a combo, you can DI to escape, with IC, you can literally just as well drop the controller

You seriously think a character who can get you from 0% to 999% with ease is comparable to ICs? First of all, good Bayo players would have likely Witch Time/ABK/Witch Twist you when trying to attack. Second, ICs Wobbles CAN be escaped from! Meaning if ICs starts a combo, you can mash to escape, with Bayo, you can literally just as well drop the controller.

See how that turns out? Or should I include a reaction pic as well to drive the point home? Comments such as these add literally nothing to the argument/discussion at hand. Especially when you have no idea what you're talking about

Good ICs will their Nana's alive. Good ICs will also wobble you every damn chance they can and will never drop set ups or a wobble.

On the other side, good Bayo players will 0-100 you every single time you touch their shield (Witch Twist), hit ABK perfectly into a combo, or get perfect Witch Time reads and punishes.

But we don't live in a world where people play 100% without making mistakes some times. ICs can drop wobble setups, some can have bad tech skill and can't get any set up outside of chain grabbing Sheik into a wobble, maybe Nana wasn't close for the Wobble so you're locked out of that option (unless you're vs Sheik, but that's a different story).

We also don't live in a world where Bayo players will 0-100 every person that touches their shield or read you to the shadow realm with Witch Time. Tech flubs are a real thing, along with misreading DI.

OBVIOUSLY, a REALLY GOOD player won't have problems reading DI or getting perfect wobble set ups, but it's not guaranteed.

Using the good player argument and then using absolutes doesn't really work.

My personal stance is to wait for a few majors/nationals before passing a final verdict. While it isn't surprising to see Pink Fresh place as highly as he did, it is very shocking to see Saj place as well has he did (maybe Peach was holding him back? Not really sure).

Does Bayo need a nerf? Yeah, most likely
Nerfed to the ground? Hopefully not.
Does she need to be banned? I personally don't think there's enough information to warrant a ban just yet. Last thing we need is to wait 2 years with everyone and their mother playing Bayo and finally thinking "We should probably ban her now". Nor do we need to ban her immediately only to find that Bayo was the least of her problems (RosaLumas are literally the devil).

There is still a chance that Bayonetta still isn't completely understood (as much as I dislike watching Bayo on stream, 2 months with iirc 1 national isn't enough data. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I don't follow Smash4 enough), which is why I'm not jumping on the "Ban her" bandwagon just yet (nor am I fully supporting "Don't ban her"). There are understandable reasons as to why people would want to ban her and why people think she isn't as ridiculous as people believe her to be.

Something else that doesn't sit well with me is that we can't immediately determine if the character is carrying the player as vs the player being good. The last thing I want is someone labbing Bayo hardcore, winning a national and Bayo being touted as being OP when it was just the player understanding his/her character very well.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

You seriously think a character who can get you from 0% to 999% with ease is comparable to ICs?

Who? Bullet art does 0.5% per shot, stales too.

Second, ICs Wobbles CAN be escaped from! Meaning if ICs starts a combo, you can mash to escape

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Wobbling
"the delay between the pummel and the tilt is minuscule if not nonexistent, and is humanly impossible to escape from."

On the other side, good Bayo players will 0-100 you every single time you touch their shield

..... that's a lie, none of Bayonetta's combos do that much damage.

 

[drogoth232]

Who? Bullet art does 0.5% per shot, stales too.


http://www.ssbwiki.com/Wobbling
"the delay between the pummel and the tilt is minuscule if not nonexistent, and is humanly impossible to escape from."


..... that's a lie, none of Bayonetta's combos do that much damage.

If you took that part of the post seriously, I sincerely apologize that you can't detect sarcasm. Thanks for taking this literally.
Again, sorry you couldn't tell I wasn't being serious. Ask Westballz about this, not me.
0-100 is a term used to in lieu of 0 to death. I'm sorry, my legitimate esports games is showing. But thanks for taking this literally, too.

If those are your only arguments against my post (especially considering that those could barely be considered arguments), then please try again and formulate an actual one.

 

[Scribe]

Who? Bullet art does 0.5% per shot, stales too.


http://www.ssbwiki.com/Wobbling
"the delay between the pummel and the tilt is minuscule if not nonexistent, and is humanly impossible to escape from."


..... that's a lie, none of Bayonetta's combos do that much damage.

Read the rest of the post. He was turning the argument around to showcase the flaws in the other person's argument, and how they were based on the assumption that the player using the character would be playing perfectly. Mind you, he did so in a way that was itself flawed, but I digress.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I can't detect sarcasm without /s (100% serious)

0 - 100 = 0 to death is news to me though.

 

[Scribe]

I can't detect sarcasm without /s (100% serious)

0 - 100 = 0 to death is news to me though.

Same here. I know in traditional fighting games, a combo that takes a character from full health to no health all in one go is called a 100%

 

[Muster]

If you took that part of the post seriously, I sincerely apologize that you can't detect sarcasm. Thanks for taking this literally.
Again, sorry you couldn't tell I wasn't being serious. Ask Westballz about this, not me.
0-100 is a term used to in lieu of 0 to death. I'm sorry, my legitimate esports games is showing. But thanks for taking this literally, too.

If those are your only arguments against my post (especially considering that those could barely be considered arguments), then please try again and formulate an actual one.

I get that he didn't notice your sarcasm, but do you have to be so rude about it? That kind of response is completely uncalled for.

Except killing Nana makes the Icies legitimately awful for that stock unless you have the ability to come back with Sopo.

Bayonetta is basically the Icies condensed into one character with absurd combos.

This notion is completely absurd, an IC's wobble or chaingrab will end the stock unless they mess up, but a Bayonetta combo ends the stock only if you mess up.

and also, could anyone prove the notion that Bayonetta has guaranteed death combos regardless of DI and SDI? We've provided videos on how to escape combos and yet i keep hearing claims that they're inescapable.
Perhaps a video showing how she can cover every DI and SDI option should be put up, assuming such a thing is possible to make a video of. (hint: it's because she can't)

I can't detect sarcasm without /s (100% serious)

0 - 100 = 0 to death is news to me though.

I've never heard 0-100 as a term for death combos before.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

just watched bayo 0-death a Mario a couple of times.

That's pretty dumb, but I hope the devs just increase the SDI multiplier on witch twist. That's the optimal need without stomping her out and making her garbage Imo.

I really just hope they don't do her in too badly. That would be a great shame.

 

[_Jack_]

Here's my two cents on this whole Bayonetta crisis. Most of it is my opinion, so bear with me.

I don't think Bayonetta deserves a ban in the slightest and that people really need to take a deep breath and calm down. Seriously, people are comparing Bayonetta to Brawl Meta Knight. BRAWL META KNIGHT! Really, people? Bayonetta is a very good character, likely the best in the game, but she's not even close to being broken, let alone on Brawl Meta Knight's level. Is she annoying to play against? Yeah. But, being annoying doesn't make you broken.

Now, I will say this. Bayonetta as a character is not broken, but the move Witch Time is. There is absolutely no reason that any character should die off of a countered jab. That's absurd. However, the move as a whole doesn't make Bayonetta's overall moveset broken. She's like Rosalina. They both have some broken parts about them (Witch Time and Luma's attack knockback), but, as a whole, the characters are not broken.

I feel Bayonetta being the best is better than Sheik being the best because Bayonetta has counters. Sheik beat practically every character in the game (and, if not, she went even) and nearly everyone's worst matchup was Sheik. Bayonetta, on the other hand, has losing matchups, allowing her to be counterpicked. Bayonetta also isn't dominant at tournaments. She only had one Top 8 placing at Pound. I think we all need to chill out a bit with this whole thing. Sure, Bayonetta may deserve some nerfs (mostly to Witch Time) but, if Sheik didn't deserve to be banned, Bayonetta definitely doesn't.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Point is that a character that outright forces players into playing lame just so that they have the lessened risk of getting caught in a bad spot by Bayo is an issue

This is the problem, right here. This "why should I have to fight differently to win" mentality. It is a prime example of people who are stuck in their flowchart ways and just go on autopilot every match. Bayonetta takes one look at that kind of thing and says "nah, no more of that" and ya'll cant stand it.

Listen to yourself; you're complaining that she forces you to play a certain way. UM HELLO WELCOME TO FIGHTING GAMES, I GUESS? Thats the whole idea of playing against different characters! You have to have different strategies and mindsets to win!

I dont like being forced to approach cloud as bowser, but hey, thats the matchup. I also dont like having to weave through villager's loid and slingslots as bowser, but hey, thats the matchup.

 

[Greward]

I really dislike how new players spout out so much bull**** about Brawl MK.

I mean, you weren't there to know jack **** about how he affected the scene. Yes, he was broken, and he was ban-worthy (imo), but this doesn't mean he was unbeatable. If we were to go a hardcore Sirlinist ban-standards, he wasn't bannable though. Which we shouldn't.

Just keep the brawl comparisons out unless you actually have the experience to talk about it, the popular reddit opinion is not exactly accurate.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Devil's advocate but that GIF of SDI from Witch Twist was from a controlled environment.

You have to react properly to it to even think about SDIing it and in some cases this is probable but in others it's not. "Just SDI" is basically a Bayonetta meme, trust me, it's been experimented with but never done consistently in tournament.

 

[Scribe]

I really dislike how new players spout out so much bull**** about Brawl MK.

I mean, you weren't there to know jack **** about how he affected the scene. Yes, he was broken, and he was ban-worthy (imo), but this doesn't mean he was unbeatable. If we were to go a hardcore Sirlinist ban-standards, he wasn't bannable though. Which we shouldn't.

Just keep the brawl comparisons out unless you actually have the experience to talk about it, the popular reddit opinion is not exactly accurate.

The Sirlinist view also asks the community to consider whether the game is actually worth playing with the problematic tactic banned, or if it has enough problems even without it that you're better off moving on to something else. Considering that even without MK and ICs, you had a lot of hard-counter matchups that formed a convoluted RPS dynamic that caused other problems, that many characters had been invalidated by universal mechanics like hitstun canceling, and the fact that when Brawl didn't have any real contemporary alternatives to move on to, we made our own, one could argue that even without MK and Icies, the game had enough problems to warrant dropping it entirely.

 

[Zult]

Bayonetta counter confirmed. I had to take one for the team. No need to ban her now. http://oddshot.tv/shot/smashunited-201604111275612

 

[Ghidorah14]

Bayonetta counter confirmed. I had to take one for the team. No need to ban her now. http://oddshot.tv/shot/smashunited-201604111275612

"EW WHY SHOULD I LEARN A COUNTERPICK CHARACTER? CANT WE JUST BAN HER???"

 

[Dagon97]

Bayonetta counter confirmed. I had to take one for the team. No need to ban her now. http://oddshot.tv/shot/smashunited-201604111275612

This does not mean puff beats bayo but in my opinion this is one of puff's better mu's. You can rest if the opponent does not expect it because rest comes out on frame 2, it is important that it is frame 2 because mario's nair which is frame 3 cannot break Bayonetta's combos. this does not mean it is a bayonetta counter, bayonetta can bait it out and punish accordingly or reset to neutral of which bayonetta still wins.

 

[Shaya]

You even posted a gif of it on Page 17.

So that answer's @Browny's question. We do have actual, verifiable proof of someone escaping Witch Twist with SDI.

Something to consider here that isn't exactly obvious either.

SDI may not have really been apart of this whatsoever.
When you're in hit stun, you have an animation that usually has you horizontal or in a ball of some sort, compared to where you were before hand standing straight/vertical.
The sudden drastic shift in hurtbox placement allows people to fall out of things without SDI/DI being a constituting part of it.

This is how people fall out of multi hits like Mewtwo's Up Smash and is literally why ZSS up-b has people fall out weirdly when there is no SDI modifier to the move bar the first hit.

In these circumstances SDI could take an effect but you're already getting a free "massive" hurtbox shift by being hit, and the momentum of the character was in the (I can't tell 100%, but is that Luigi?) player's control as well, while in other situations you wouldn't have that momentum to begin with either (which also allows shifts in position that could make things easier to fall out of). Furthermore the character may have started an attack/animation that further enhanced the hurtbox shifting effect.

Moral of the point is that single instances of things happening isn't proof that it's possible, it's proof that there a gazillion factors that could affect it, but there's a very high likelihood that the consistent result is one that you'll see 90%+ of the time given the staple conditions.

 

[Muster]

Devil's advocate but that GIF of SDI from Witch Twist was from a controlled environment.

You have to react properly to it to even think about SDIing it and in some cases this is probable but in others it's not. "Just SDI" is basically a Bayonetta meme, trust me, it's been experimented with but never done consistently in tournament.

The first witch twist may be hard to predict, but her ladder combos usually involve another one, don't they? not to mention if witch twist doesn't actually start a combo.

Something to consider here that isn't exactly obvious either.

SDI may not have really been apart of this whatsoever.
When you're in hit stun, you have an animation that usually has you horizontal or in a ball of some sort, compared to where you were before hand standing straight/vertical.
The sudden drastic shift in hurtbox placement allows people to fall out of things without SDI/DI being a constituting part of it.

This is how people fall out of multi hits like Mewtwo's Up Smash and is literally why ZSS up-b has people fall out weirdly when there is no SDI modifier to the move bar the first hit.

In these circumstances SDI could take an effect but you're already getting a free "massive" hurtbox shift by being hit, and the momentum of the character was in the (I can't tell 100%, but is that Luigi?) player's control as well, while in other situations you wouldn't have that momentum to begin with either (which also allows shifts in position that could make things easier to fall out of). Furthermore the character may have started an attack/animation that further enhanced the hurtbox shifting effect.

Moral of the point is that single instances of things happening isn't proof that it's possible, it's proof that there a gazillion factors that could affect it, but there's a very high likelihood that the consistent result is one that you'll see 90%+ of the time given the staple conditions.

That's Corrin, and while the original post had a twitter video also demonstrating the SDI out of witch twist with ike, it's been gone for a week or so, so i'd need to find the original video somewhere else or a new one.

Edit: The video works on my phone, and it seems to be demonstrating that you can only SDI to fall out behind her if it's an aerial witch twist, while grounded just puts you at a tougher position to follow up

edit edit: The video in question

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Is the game fun for competitive players in it's current state?

I've seen this dance before on Smogon before they started banning everything... I actually voted to ban some of the first suspects before they went out of control and even ignored players wanting to test Stealth Rock in Gen 4, even though 54% wanted a test.

The thing is... would more players want to go to a tourney with Bayo allowed? Or would they rather go to a tourney without her?

I left the Brawl tournament scene after MK and ICs just made it not fun.

I'm not a casual either, I was on the top 50 for a year for Smogon OU in Gen 4, then left when they started banning things too much and ignored Stealth Rock for whatever reason, 2008 21 and under US checkers champ, top US player for pokemon XY's Season 2 & 3 Battle Spot (which is basically a world-wide ladder hosted by Nintendo). People considered me for the MI Brawl PR when I had only went to 3 tournaments too, but I didn't get on.

I leave things when they don't get fun for me, but that's just my personal view.

Edit: Also, people credit me with discovering Lucario's Aura Sphere Cancel to Jump Cancel USmash combo, which I have dubbed the Shoryufloof.