Banning Bayonetta in Tournaments

[Shaya]

@AkiraGr Meta Knight's up air may auto cancel on frame 1, but that's without a hitbox and it doesn't achieve anything. It hits on frame 6 for 1 frame, not for 6 frames.
Meta Knight's up air explicitly has an auto cancel tuned so that immediate landing, properly auto cancelling it and remaining in the air produce a range of -14 to -17 on block.

And the end lag of neutral air is not 1-5 frames... what? I think you're really confusing how frame data works / have misunderstood the way KH displays the data.

And by end lag I mean cool downs, not literal end lag.>_>

And if you think Sheik is untouchable purely by her frame data, maybe you should take a gander at Mario's frame data which is better.

Bayonetta's smash attacks have (low priority) right next to them. on the website

That's a term for an engine specific. It's "low" priority in the sense that it cannot beat any move.

I hate to nitpick a nitpicker, but Bouncing Fish has always done 12% damage.

LOL; you could've just said "actually it's base and growth was nerfed notably, not the damage". -whoops though, thank you~
The point remains that it KOs significantly later.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Honestly, I think a removing a lot of knockback from up air would do her good. Perhaps more ending lag on Witch Time wiff.

Maybe make her a little slower on the ground and in the air so that her mobility IS her combo game

That way, Bayo doesn't lose the focus of the character (insane combos) but makes her less effective at it.

I know people want nerfs but nerfing the character into the ground is a bad move. Don't take away the point of the character.

 

[BunbUn129]

I did not compare Bayonetta and Ryu in difficulty in learning curve but pointed that both characters use input commands like the hadouken and after burner kick. I hope I got that clear.



That's not true. All fighting games have flow charted like Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, Killer Instinct, Tekken, Virtua Fighter. Depending the character of course. Competitive players depending their style could be aggressors or turtles or footsies in general if they prefer. Always depending on the character whom they are playing each fighting game have different mechanics, for example in Guilty Gear Xrd each character could start a barrage in aerial combo which is are very punishable example.

or

As you can see here in this games a simple mistake can cost you half life bar with long flow charted combos aerial or grounded. Bayonetta fighting style is more inline with actual fighting games, like Ryu, in Smash because her games are also like that.



I agree with the bolded part. The rest isn't quite true, the combos are not guaranteed. Damage can be avoided with SDI and normal DI also multi hit moves can break witch time or even raise shield during witch time (situational) Upsmash from Sheik, Greninja, Little Mac, Ike and other break witch time and is a very good baiting tool against it because of the moves hit boxes cover a wide range from above to the sides. Also Air Dogde most of her combos can be avoided if you time it right.

True Bayonetta can be a noob killer for those who do not know the game but that's the point if you want to get better you need to learn this stuff and Bayonetta helps new players to get more involved to this advance technics.




I disagree, melee is a very bad balanced game, it wasn't made to be played the way the competitive scene made it popular. Hallmark... Ok now I do not want to go that road the discussion let's say we disagree. Great game for it's time but things move forward.



Great analysis but you forget to state specific variables that affects most of the stuff you are saying. Each character have specific gimmicks that makes their gameplay very different. You speak for ladder combos about ZSS and MK but the frame data from this characters allow quick movement, auto cancel their aerial attacks so better chance for reads, combo from grabs and MK has 4 jumps to his Upair with a hit box of 6 frames and auto cancel at 1 frame... My god if you can not combo strike with this stats then you better stop playing the game.

Bayonetta's frames are TERRIBLE, no priority in her smash attacks and cannot even stop a grap with her jab attack (9 FRAMES start up) you have to read if your opponent with grap you. Terrible landing lag in all of the aerials, punishable on defense. She has serious weakness especially in neutral game. She is a rushdown killer as stated in previous posts and a noob destroyer. So rather than getting better you all prefer an nerf or a ban.

I liked your analytical thinking though.

The amazing frame data on MK's uair is offset by the fact that it's hitbox lasts for only one frame. Most characters' up aerials have decently long durations, like ZSS and Falcon. It auto-cancels in a short-hop, but has comparatively high 18 frames landing lag, and is ineffective for launching grounded opponents, while ZSS, Falcon, Mario, Luigi, etc can do a falling uair to scoop opponents. The move is still very good, but it requires strict precision, even more so after the nerf.

Furthermore, Bayonetta's mobility is not bad. She has a 4-frame jumpsquat, very high air acceleration (air acceleration matters more than air speed), and good dashing acceleration. Her overall mobility is slightly above average. This is better than Ryu, who is also combo-oriented but has the worst air acceleration, a 5-frame jumpsquat, and the third slowest walk speed, though with good dashing acceleration. Her "TERRIBLE" frame data is largely negated by Witch Twist, which is frame 4 and one of the best combo-starters in the game, and her main source of damage and in turn, KO's. Her back aerial is pretty safe due to high shield-stun and a short-hop auto-cancel, and is one of her better neutral options. Bayonetta doesn't have a bad neutral game; it just happens to be the only area where she's "alright" rather than overpowering.

Bayonetta's mobility isn't strictly worse than Meta Knight's. She beats him noticeably in both dashing and aerial accelerations.

Finally, I am doing my best to live with Bayo in her current state and learn the MU; but I also believe she deserves a nerf. These two things aren't mutually exclusive like you're implying. There are a lot of people who know the MU, but almost everyone will acknowledge she needs to be toned down.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

How to balance Bayonetta is literally as simple as putting her in freefall after up B 2 imo.

Also yes "low priority" is used to describe moves that can't beat other moves with the 9% rule. Stop calling it projectile priority, it's nothing like that (NEWS FLASH PROJECTILES ABIDE BY THE 9% RULE TOO)

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Wouldn't that be going against the trailer, though?

To nerf her, personally, I'd make it so dABK has much lower knockback so it can't combo into Witch Twist/dABK until mid/mid-late %'s, plus maybe increase the endlag on-hit a bit so it'll be less safe while still keeping combos. This'll make it so she can't eZ roof combo you with super safe moves at low %'s, and when it starts working you'll be able to beat it with DI.

Also, speaking of DI, destroy her F-Air 1. The only reason you can't avoid the super braindead stuff is because F-Air 1 allows her to push forward and follow DI. F-Air 1 was never marketed as a great combo starter, so increase the endlag on it and F-Air 2 to match F-Air 3. This'll make it so that when you land a F-Air, you're better off doing the full combo and using it as a finisher rather than extending your combos in stupid ways.

There really isn't much you can do beyond that without going against the trailer stuff, tbh.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

no it wouldn't, it just means she can't kill you off the top unless you put yourself in an awful position up there. There's no reason for her to be able to ceiling kill you when she can kill you at 0% off Witch Time anyway and does 35% off a normal combo.

Worth mentioning Rosalinda's trailer had her escaping throws with Luma but they removed that...

 

[bc1910]

The multitude of different ways that Bayonetta can carry you off the top is what makes her so hard to balance. MK and ZSS had one ladder each, Bayo has several. You can nerf the knockback of her Uair but that doesn't stop her from carrying you off the top with her second Up B.

I think reducing the vertical knockback of divekick would be a good place to start. Uair probably could use a knockback reduction even though it doesn't solve the whole problem. If possible, I would just make her travel less high when she uses Witch Twist. Maybe make her move 2/3rds of the distance she does now. I also agree that crushing Fair 1's ending lag unless it's cancelled into Fair 2 would be really good, as that move was never shown as such a monstrous combo extender.

This is just to address her death combos by the way, there are other issues with the character that could be addressed. Divekick could use additional landing lag and less safety on shield if possible. I mean, I'm tempted to say it just shouldn't bounce off shields. There should definitely be an additional 10-15 frames of ending lag on a whiffed Witch Twist as well.

What I would like is for her to keep her stylish high-damage combos but lose the threat of killing you at any percent, and have some kind of meaningful disadvantage state. She would still be excellent even if she was nerfed quite hard.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

no it wouldn't, it just means she can't kill you off the top unless you put yourself in an awful position up there. There's no reason for her to be able to ceiling kill you when she can kill you at 0% off Witch Time anyway and does 35% off a normal combo.

Worth mentioning Rosalinda's trailer had her escaping throws with Luma but they removed that...

but the trailer highlight thing shows double witch twist and attacking afterwards

also iirc they added the luma thing back in lol

 

[Omega Tyrant]

but the trailer highlight thing shows double witch twist and attacking afterwards

also iirc they added the luma thing back in lol

No they didn't, that was misinformation that got spread around. Around 1.1.0 or whatever, people misremembered that it was throws Luma could no longer act during since 1.0.4, instead thinking it was acting while Rosalina is grabbed. So when they saw Luma acting while Rosalina is grabbed, people misreported it being "added back in", when that ability of Luma was never removed.

What happened to the days when we learned how to counter a character, instead of outright banning them? Metaknight in Brawl was at a huge advantage against the rest of the cast, everyone knows that, but as the metagame progressed the community started to figure out how to effectively deal with him as time went on (think Marth's chain grab release). I believe it will be similar with Sm4sh's metagame and given that this is a evolving game (patches) a ban on bayonetta shouldn't have even been brought up this early especially imo.

Except you know, Meta Knight's results got more dominating as time went on and no amount of matchup knowledge curbed it. So not the best example for your argument.

 

[Scarhi]

How to balance Bayonetta is literally as simple as putting her in freefall after up B 2 imo.

I like the idea. It doesn't go against her combo-heavy intended design but takes away her free kills from a frame 4 upB.

My take on the subject of reasonable Bayonetta nerfs would've been to reduce upB and sideB's distance. That alone would mean no more escaping disadvantage for free and no more 0-death combos since she doesn't take you as high or as close to the blastzone with her combos. Damage racking with combos would still work and they could potentially kill at high enough% if you finish them with Bair or Uair. In any case, they would still put the opponent in a bad enough position for an airdodge read 50/50 or something.

 

[Xephilon]

How to balance Bayonetta is literally as simple as putting her in freefall after up B 2 imo.

I'm sorry but this is a horrible idea. A character should get punished for doing what she's supposed to do?

A good nerf (IMO) would be the following :
Up B distance halved if it hits someone (that way she can't kill off the top but it won't screw over her recovery)
Most, if not, all moves damage decreased (1% each should be fine). A combo character should not be able to do so much damage in one go.
Witch time now scales with KB rather than just in general. If you witch time a jab, it lasts for 1.5s. Witch time a strong attack, it lasts for 3s. It still stales though.

As with every nerf, there should be a buff or two to compensate (so pick one or two of these):
Utilt now has better hitbox and works better as a combo starter.
Ftilt can now be a combo starter.
Dtilt has 2 frame less endlag (making it safe on shield if it hits on max range)

 

[Browny]

Its time for everyone's daily reminder that Bayonetta has been soft-banned in USA since release.

If you disagree, you simply dont know the definition of a soft ban.

The hard ban is inevitable and I would put money on it, either that or she gets nerfed. Give it a month.

 

[DoctorLuigiIsIn]

Honestly, I think a removing a lot of knockback from up air would do her good. Perhaps more ending lag on Witch Time wiff.

Maybe make her a little slower on the ground and in the air so that her mobility IS her combo game

That way, Bayo doesn't lose the focus of the character (insane combos) but makes her less effective at it.

I know people want nerfs but nerfing the character into the ground is a bad move. Don't take away the point of the character.

Exactly, look what happened to poor Luigi after 1.1.1

 

[Emblem Lord]

Nintendo has been consistent since the beginning.

She is going to get nerf nuked.

Then receive some compensation buffs later on.

 

[Balgorxz]

Nintendo has been consistent since the beginning.

She is going to get nerf nuked.

Then receive some compensation buffs later on.

most of the characters that got nerf nuked then get compensation buffs after became better designed anyways, diddy got way more creative, luigi forced players learn how to gimp with downb, sheik players are actually using dsmash etc

 

[Emblem Lord]

most of the characters that got nerf nuked then get compensation buffs after became better designed anyways, diddy got way more creative, luigi forced players learn how to gimp with downb, sheik players are actually using dsmash etc

Which is why I have absolute faith in Nintendo at this point.

 

[The21stSmasher]

Honestly, I'm going to be real here and say I don't know, at least not yet; Bayonetta's appearance in Sm4sh has NOT been long for us to determine if we should ban her or not yet. When time flies and whatnot and if Bayonetta's getting big results, winning over 90% of the local, regional, and major tournaments left and right like Meta-Knight from Brawl, we probably should.

BUT, if Bayonetta's weaknesses as a character can be and is EASY to expose, and she ain't winning them tourneys left and right like we imagined, then it should be easy for us to adapt to. I mean, why else I didn't give a flying **** about fighting Sheiks back in 1.1.4?

All I'm saying is, we shouldn't determine whether we should ban her or not... Yet. Give her more time for us to see more of her stuff.

 

[Buddhahobo]

Its time for everyone's daily reminder that Bayonetta has been soft-banned in USA since release.

If you disagree, you simply dont know the definition of a soft ban.

The hard ban is inevitable and I would put money on it, either that or she gets nerfed. Give it a month.

I suppose I don't know the definition of a soft ban then.

People are still using Bayonetta. Or have Pink Fresh, Salem, Ninjalink, etc, been exiled from their communities when I wasn't looking?

 

[NotLiquid]

I suppose I don't know the definition of a soft ban then.

People are still using Bayonetta. Or have Pink Fresh, Salem, Ninjalink, etc, have not been exiled from their communities when I wasn't looking?

By "soft ban" people mean a character that is only really banned per "unwritten rules" and negative stigma encouraging disassociation. A character that's undone by social osmosis rather than anything binding. Something that only really discourages people from an angle of "you're really not going to look good by picking this character".

And yeah, to a wider eye they get more scrutiny than most players. But that it has actively deterred people seems like a complete myth to me. @Das Koopa already did the research on her frequency of usage and she's used a lot, even though she consequently has a high drop off late in most majors.

There's not really anything inevitable about a ban, if it were I don't think we'd have this discussion in the first place. A patch is probably inevitable but the community is already split enough to make the former not as given - especially considering we've gone circles in talking about how casual fans sing gospel about top professional wording, despite very few of them wanting her gone at all.

 

[Muster]

I suppose I don't know the definition of a soft ban then.

People are still using Bayonetta. Or have Pink Fresh, Salem, Ninjalink, etc, have not been exiled from their communities when I wasn't looking?

No, you see, a soft ban is when a character is only the 3rd most used in tournaments for the last two months.

Also yes "low priority" is used to describe moves that can't beat other moves with the 9% rule. Stop calling it projectile priority, it's nothing like that (NEWS FLASH PROJECTILES ABIDE BY THE 9% RULE TOO)

Thanks for this.

Nintendo has been consistent since the beginning.

She is going to get nerf nuked.

Then receive some compensation buffs later on.

They have been consistent on this front. (but will they nerf rosalina after, due to her taking bayo's place in no 1 if she gets nerfed considerably?)

 

[Balgorxz]

No, you see, a soft ban is when a character is only the 3rd most used in tournaments for the last two months.


Thanks for this.

They have been consistent on this front. (but will they erf rosalina after, due to her taking bayo's place in no 1 if she gets nerfed considerably?)

the difference between rosa and 2nd an 3rd place would be so small, it's actually not important.
also MK exists

 

[KuroganeHammer]

yeah lmao Bayo isnt softbanned

Here's Sirlin's definition of softban:

Japan, however, does not officially ban Akuma from tournaments! They have what is called a "soft ban." This is a tacit understanding amongst all top players that Akuma is too good to be played, and that he destroys an otherwise beautiful game, so they unofficially agree not to play him. There are always a very small number of people who do play him in tournaments, but never the top players. Usually a few poor players try their hand at the god-character and lose, which is utterly humiliating and crowd-pleasing. This is an interesting alternate take on the "hard ban" we have in America.

That's all well and good, but Japan has also shown signs of a soft-ban on another character in Super Turbo. I bring up this example because it lives on the threshold. It is just on the edge of what is reasonable to ban because it is "too good." Anything less than this would not be reasonable, so perhaps others can use it as a benchmark to decide what is reasonable in their games.

The character in question is the mysteriously named "Old Sagat." Old Sagat is not a secret character like Akuma (or at least he's not as secret!). Old Sagat does not have any moves like Akuma's air fireball that the game was not designed to handle. Old Sagat is arguably the best character in the game (Akuma, of course, doesn't count), but even that is debated by top players! I think almost any expert player would rank him in the top three of all characters, but there isn't even universal agreement that he is the best! Why, then, would any reasonable person even consider banning him? Surely, it must be a group of scrubs who simply don't know how to beat him, and reflexively cry out for a ban.

But this is not the case. There seems to be a tacit agreement amongst top players in Japan--a soft ban--on playing Old Sagat. The reason is that many believe the game to have much more variety without Old Sagat. Even if he is only second best in the game by some measure, he flat out beats half the characters in the game with little effort. Half the cast can barely even fight him, let alone beat him. Other top characters in the game, good as they are, win by much more interaction and more "gameplay." Almost every character has a chance against the other best characters in the game. The result of allowing Old Sagat in tournaments is that several other characters, such as Chun Li and Ken, become basically unviable.

source: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned

 

[Darksydaz]

1.) So does that mean the information in this video about being able to SDI and DI out of her combos isn't true?

2.) Everyone keeps referring to witch twist as the end all be all, but if you know it's coming since out of shield she can only do one of two options (besides witch time), then wouldn't taking a defensive action beat it?

3.) I commonly hear that the best way to beat bouncing fish is to not be in the vicinity nor challenge the move, is this a problem because people are challenging bayonetta's witch twist because her normals are bad. Then how do people deal with Zero Suit Samus?

4.) Is there a problem with SDI'n? I heard people had to do that against Melee Fox Uairs. Is a character that is pushing you to get better at a certain mechanic of the game that bad?

I only ask this because these are a lot of variations to remember per weight class. Not saying it isn't possible or a Pro can't memorize this, but for the amount of work that a Bayonetta player has to do to kill off the top vs a struggling player.

Once again, i'm asking these questions to understand the "Ban Bayonetta" or "Nerf her to the ground" side of things.

 

[Roy of Pharae]

I don't think it's true since anyone can read DI. With Bayo's combos, the bayo would either have to fail it or the opponent might be at a certain weight which allows for easier escape.

 

[DanGR]

but the trailer highlight thing shows double witch twist and attacking afterwards

also iirc they added the luma thing back in lol

Luma can only attack if you don't throw immediately. (If tethered) Rosa used to be able to hold shield, and then if anyone grabbed her, Luma could hit them immediately regardless of how quickly they threw Rosa.

 

[Scribe]

1.) So does that mean the information in this video about being able to SDI and DI out of her combos isn't true?

2.) Everyone keeps referring to witch twist as the end all be all, but if you know it's coming since out of shield she can only do one of two options (besides witch time), then wouldn't taking a defensive action beat it?

3.) I commonly hear that the best way to beat bouncing fish is to not be in the vicinity nor challenge the move, is this a problem because people are challenging bayonetta's witch twist because her normals are bad. Then how do people deal with Zero Suit Samus?

4.) Is there a problem with SDI'n? I heard people had to do that against Melee Fox Uairs. Is a character that is pushing you to get better at a certain mechanic of the game that bad?

I only ask this because these are a lot of variations to remember per weight class. Not saying it isn't possible or a Pro can't memorize this, but for the amount of work that a Bayonetta player has to do to kill off the top vs a struggling player.

Once again, i'm asking these questions to understand the "Ban Bayonetta" or "Nerf her to the ground" side of things.

You can SDI and DI out of her combos. A lot of either don't know how (DI down and away is optimal, though I recommend mixing it up from time to time, SDI in quarter-circles towards her for witch twist) or insist that any claims or evidence that you can do so are made up.

As for the problem with SDI, it's because SDI is weaker in Smash 4 than it was in Melee or Brawl, so people believe it's useless in Smash 4.

 

[DungeonMaster]

This is one of the board's best Samus players taking on a Bayonetta. Shoutouts to @KayJay.

While there's no claim to this being completely representative of the matchup, you can see a lot of the elements that make a floaty, heavy, projectile kill combo character with multihits difficult for Bayo.
Almost none of her starters get any sort of conversion. It's really quite hard. In some cases in this video you can very clearly see Samus with DI is no where near any sort of potential witch twist follow up and the player is visibly confused.
This is also a year's worth of Samus meta hitting full frontal vs. a few months of Bayo, so again not a fair comparison.

The point of this is that light fast-fallers clearly suffer the most vs. this character, and you may not get the major overhaul many anticipate.
Just because the competitive community is currently dominated by light fast-fallers, doesn't mean they will always dominate and Bayo may be a trump card (or nearly a trump card) requiring competitive players to diversify.
The meta may have to change for the character, not the character changing for the meta. My 2 cents for what it's worth.

 

[Muster]

You can SDI and DI out of her combos. A lot of either don't know how (DI down and away is optimal, though I recommend mixing it up from time to time, SDI in quarter-circles towards her for witch twist) or insist that any claims or evidence that you can do so are made up.

As for the problem with SDI, it's because SDI is weaker in Smash 4 than it was in Melee or Brawl, so people believe it's useless in Smash 4.

Small nitpick,You can sdi towards or away from witch twist, with torwards dropping you behind her and away knocking you farther away making follow ups more difficult. I'd definitely say towards is better, but also harder to pull off.

 

[Awkwardelevator220]

Bayonetta's combo game is far too good. I think that the best solution to this problem is that Bayonetta's combos should be harder to connect. The damage she deals is fine as is, and her smash attacks have horrible cooldown. Bayonetta must be nerfed in her conversion and combo potential, especialy her fairs connecting multiple times in edgeguard situations.

 

[Ghidorah14]

I wonder if changing how her upair worked would stop the ladder combos but keep her combos intact otherwise.

Maybe make it so it comes out slower so that you cant hit one right out of witch twist.

Or make it no longer able to kill and just be a juggle aerial.

Or even change the angle it sends you.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I wonder if changing how her upair worked would stop the ladder combos but keep her combos intact otherwise.

Maybe make it so it comes out slower so that you cant hit one right out of witch twist.

Or make it no longer able to kill and just be a juggle aerial.

Or even change the angle it sends you.

If it comes out slower, an ABK > Uair might be ruined.
Or if it wasn't, it didn't fix anything.

Uair's kill power came from being close to the blast zone rather than being strong, Uair is already a pretty weak attack especially with staling.

Unless the angle Uair sends you is downwards, changing the angle of Uair doesn't change much. ZSS's UpB had an angle change but it is still a crazy finisher.

Bayonetta's combo game is far too good. I think that the best solution to this problem is that Bayonetta's combos should be harder to connect. The damage she deals is fine as is, and her smash attacks have horrible cooldown. Bayonetta must be nerfed in her conversion and combo potential, especialy her fairs connecting multiple times in edgeguard situations.

Reminds me of how people were complaining Little Mac's ground game is too good.
"Where all think alike, no one thinks very much"

 

[Ghidorah14]

SoccerStar, please, for the good of all pro-bayo arguments out there...stop bringing up little mac. It is not helping. Unlike bayo, mac came bundled with an incredibly exploitable weakness that has been repeated to infinity and beyond; that being, mac + air = bad times. Bayo doesnt have anything like that.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I wonder if changing how her upair worked would stop the ladder combos but keep her combos intact otherwise.

Maybe make it so it comes out slower so that you cant hit one right out of witch twist.

Or make it no longer able to kill and just be a juggle aerial.

Or even change the angle it sends you.

Honestly I really don't have an issue with her DPS or her Uair (it shouldn't be weaker at all, it's already not incredibly strong) it's mostly just her safety and how high she carries ppl to the blastzones that bothers me. If Divekick didn't bounce people (and Bayo herself) stupid high and Witch Twist was either slightly slower on start up or altered in some way to be less crazy, that's like....all I'd change, honestly. Maybe a smidge of damage but....realistically this is all I see that's problematic. I suppose maybe some more Witch Time stuff but IDK really.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

SoccerStar, please, for the good of all pro-bayo arguments out there...stop bringing up little mac. It is not helping. Unlike bayo, mac came bundled with an incredibly exploitable weakness that has been repeated to infinity and beyond; that being, mac + air = bad times. Bayo doesnt have anything like that.

I will bring up Little Mac if I need to use him as an argument. It isn't about directly about the character, but the craziness and hate around them.
I mean, if people felt Zelda was crazy OP but later on turned out to be just scrubs complaining about a low tier instead, I would used her as my argument.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

I will bring up Little Mac if I need to use him as an argument. It isn't about directly about the character, but the craziness and hate around them.
I mean, if people felt Zelda was crazy OP but later on turned out to be just scrubs complaining about a low tier instead, I would used her as my argument.

The difference here is that the entire community was not upset over Little Mac or Zelda. There were a few vocal minorities, but it was no where near as big as this issue. Similarly, both of those characters have very obvious and fundamental weaknesses. Kinda hard to compare that to Bayonetta.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

The difference here is that the entire community was not upset over Little Mac or Zelda. There were a few vocal minorities, but it was no where near as big as this issue. Similarly, both of those characters have very obvious and fundamental weaknesses. Kinda hard to compare that to Bayonetta.

Zelda was an example, obviously she sucks. No offensive to Zelda mains.

I wouldn't really know if it was an "entire community" that hates her. Obviously, when Bayonetta was announced, tons of vocal minorities were unable to believe they were vocal minorities. Even I was expecting Shovel Knight or Shantae despite the fact that I voted for our topic here.
I guess since ZeRo made the video, the hate tripled at least. But tons of SK and Shantae videos has been made to support them too, so I wouldn't take the power of a single video too far.

Bayonetta's flaw is not as big, but we better make it big. We don't have enough results to back up either claims for bans or no bans.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Zelda was an example, obviously she sucks. No offensive to Zelda mains.

I wouldn't really know if it was an "entire community" that hates her. Obviously, when Bayonetta was announced, tons of vocal minorities were unable to believe they were vocal minorities. Even I was expecting Shovel Knight or Shantae despite the fact that I voted for our topic here.
I guess since ZeRo made the video, the hate tripled at least. But tons of SK and Shantae videos has been made to support them too, so I wouldn't take the power of a single video too far.

Bayonetta's flaw is not as big, but we better make it big. We don't have enough results to back up either claims for bans or no bans.

Well if you want to argue that point, then I'd love to ask why we banned customs so early on. I mean there wasn't enough evidence to support a ban. None of them were broken, and if anything it could help certain characters be seen as more viable. Sure there were a few customs that were pretty silly, but if you're complaining then you're just a scrub and need to git gud and adapt, right? When it came to customs, we were to quick to say "what if" and "I don't wanna learn the MU" which resulted in a ban, but when it came to Bayo, those arguments were no longer valid.

Not saying that customs should be legal, but I just find it funny that we banned one aspect of our game for reasoning that we are now considering petty reasoning. But that's none of my business...

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Well if you want to argue that point, then I'd love to ask why we banned customs so early on. I mean there wasn't enough evidence to support a ban. None of them were broken, and if anything it could help certain characters be seen as more viable. Sure there were a few customs that were pretty silly, but if you're complaining then you're just a scrub and need to git gud and adapt, right? When it came to customs, we were to quick to say "what if" and "I don't wanna learn the MU" which resulted in a ban, but when it came to Bayo, those arguments were no longer valid.

Not saying that customs should be legal, but I just find it funny that we banned one aspect of our game for reasoning that we are now considering petty reasoning. But that's none of my business...

I don't really get why Customs was actually banned, so making that comparison to me doesn't mean much.
Why was Customs banned? Never really looked it up.

 

[paperchao]

I don't really get why Customs was actually banned, so making that comparison to me doesn't mean much.
Why was Customs banned? Never really looked it up.

logistics, and some characters are very confusing to learn how to fight against in customs, such as trip sapling villager and wind kong, since they punished careless aggression, kinda like bayonetta now that I think about it...

 

[SoccerStar9001]

logistics, and some characters are very confusing to learn how to fight against in customs, such as trip sapling villager and wind kong, since they punished careless aggression, kinda like bayonetta now that I think about it...

I hated how tedious grinding for customs is so I never used them outside of one or two times to see if it was worth grinding.
As for Trip sapling and Wind Kong..... I know nothing about it, so my comments on it is worthless.