Banning Bayonetta in Tournaments

[Zult]

I don't know why some people think if Bayonetta touches them once then they're dead. This is simply not true and people over exaggerate her abilities.

 

[Xephilon]

I don't know why some people think if Bayonetta touches them once then they're dead. This is simply not true and people over exaggerate her abilities.

People like to repeat what they hear without knowing much.
"She's easy!"
"One ABK and you lose 60% or your stock!"
"OMG That Up B just accidently killed at 13%, no other character can do that, so broken!"
"How can she have trouble escaping when she has frame 1 air dodges?"
"You can't DI out of her combos, ZeRo said so!"

 

[Greward]

Gotta say that a patch hitting Bayonetta is more than likely to come

as I said before, Japan has issues with Bayonetta and it's the scene the patchers look at and hear opinions from. Japanese players think patchers are aware of the problem and believe a patch will come this May since april is too premature and june is too late for their scene.

Nothing confirmed though.

 

[John12346]

People should probably disregard the notion that we don't have to worry about Bayo one way or another, because a balance patch will probably come and weaken her abilities. While yes, it's possible and probable that's it's going to happen, I feel like a lot of people are disregarding a lot of serious undertones in what kinds of precedents banning/not banning Bayonetta could set for our community as a whole. What if we didn't have balance patches, and Bayo in addition to the rest of the cast were to stay the same from here on out? Argue under this premise, and we'll probably be able to draw out some more meaningful dialogue. And if we DO get a balance patch later down the road, then good.

(Also I am of the stance that Bayo 100% does not need to be banned, and obviously while it WOULD be nice to see, Bayo getting nerfed is not REQUIRED to maintain the health and balance of the game. The community reaction to her though is extremely... unsettling though.)
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Also, I really don't understand these parallels people are drawing between ICs and Bayo. When you're fighting ICs, your entire stock is being threatened at ALL TIMES no matter where you exist on the stage, and once their 'kill confirm' (grab at any percent) connects, that's basically it for you, no matter what you do at that point, assuming they don't screw it up.

Bayonetta isn't quite the same in this regard. While yes, a mistake on your end could potentially lead into a massive combo for her, there are many positions you can take vs. her such that your life isn't being threatened. The most prominent example here being that she really can't do anything about you sitting there and holding your shield. I'm sure we all would have killed to be able to shield constantly against ICs and remain safe.

Plus, even if she does get you, there's still the matter that you can still interact with her combos through DI/SDI to potentially/guarantee an escape. If the ICs got you, that was the end of your stock, no questions asked. Both cases are assuming the Bayo/ICs are on point and aren't misinputting during their strings, of course.

In addition, when she attempts to hit you with an ABDK (the 'D' stands for Dive), if you block it, she's now in a disadvantaged state where she has to retreat all the way back to the ledge, or suffer at least 19 frames (or more if she tries to use more Specials) of landing lag when she finally does land. Again, in this case ICs had it better, because whiffing a grab in general isn't super unsafe, plus they had Nana to cover a lot of potential punishes you could have on them.

Bottom line, there are a lot of differences between the two. I don't really think they can compare to each other.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The community reaction to her though is extremely... unsettling though.

That's a good way of putting it. I travel on a weekly basis for work, so I'm not currently active in my local Smash scene, and I'm certainly not high-level enough to have a stake in any tournament worth mentioning. I just play Smash more-or-less casually on the weekends (For Glory whooo~), practice in 3DS training mode on the plane, and I happen to enjoy using Bayonetta in addition to the other 5-10 characters I play with varying degrees of competence. The sheer vitriol aimed at her is worrisome and it's not even affecting my current ability to play the game.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Gotta say that a patch hitting Bayonetta is more than likely to come

as I said before, Japan has issues with Bayonetta and it's the scene the patchers look at and hear opinions from. Japanese players think patchers are aware of the problem and believe a patch will come this May since april is too premature and june is too late for their scene.

Nothing confirmed though.

If Japan were to ban her, she'd get patched within a week. No way either Sakurai or Nintendo would let a character ban in their own backyard go unaddressed.

 

[DungeonMaster]

To chime in another voice in opposition:

I find Bayonetta extremely entertaining as a spectator. Way more than ZSS, Sheik, Rosaluma (pulling teeth),
I much prefer watching Bayo convert a single misstep into lots of damage/kill than Sheik death by a thousand little cuts, ZSS cookie cutter combos and Rosaluma spitting invisible-disjointed-hitboxes-to-win.

I'm not saying the character is balanced - I don't think she is - but she IS entertaining.

As a player, I find her combos are easy to avoid, because I play a low-combo window heavy kill projectile floaty, which is just about the worst thing for Bayo.

 

[GeneralLedge]

I don't mean to pry one way or another, but this is eerily similar to the Mii Fighters fiasco, only somewhat mixed-up in some strange bizarro alternate dimension.

We have a character(s) with a clear-cut gimmick (witch time,twist / alternate specials), and a lot of players angry about certain ease-of-use aspects (0-to-deaths with upB!! AHH!!) that are impressive in theory but mixed in practice.

The bizarro alternate dimension bit is in perspective. With Mii's, when players say "learn to adapt" they're told to eff-off and that the TO's word is law. That ZeRo is a super strong representative on the issue because "he doesn't like Mii Brawler," and Miis are soft-banned through their inaccess to the moves that make them fun to use and competitively viable.

Mirroring this, is ZeRo saying almost the same thing in that "adapting is useless when people will stop playing", and once again people are considering it a problem in one aspect or another, fueled largely by the top players who have agreed to disallow the character(s). TOs blindly accept and follow what the top players know and say, because TOs don't want their players angry at them. Ban everything because less players means more players!!

Why is this acceptable behavior on either front? With Miis, there's already a strict divide where players are unwelcome in their local community unless they, quoth the Vinnie, "play a REAL character". It's a subject of bullying and harassment on either front whether it be Miis or Bayonetta, and it's really disgusting.

But if there's one thing of note here, since it happened before with Miis, it's that Bayonetta is really not the issue. The issue is with aspects of the community, and the way we circulate and enforce really stupid information. Such as, topic example, "Bayonetta can deal 60% in one string for free" (even though she can't), and this will be taken into account by people who don't know anything about the character. This will be perceived as honest and true.

Part of the problem seems to be the receivers of the information. Either people fail to read the fine print, fail to understand other humans have feelings, or fail to correctly discuss the issue, and instead assume every rumor is true. It only takes a few bad eggs to screw a local, and enough locals to screw a national.

The irony is, it's my understanding (please correct me) that Spain actually does allow Miis with their full moveset? What crazy mirror universe am I looking at here, where america is super anti-Mii but hushed and evasive about Bayonetta?

In either instance, though, it's a soft-ban. Bayonettas are discouraged and avoided, where Miis are discouraged (through arbitrary law), and unplayed for parallel reasons. Pick a different character if you "want" to have "fun".

Why is it such a prevailing issue in parts of the smash4 community as to whether or not an outlier has to be banned for their differences? It's bogglingly similar to real-world distinguishing characteristics, and how they're handled or ignored. It has been for the longest time, $5.99 be damned. Are we really this eager to bleach ourselves of every flaw, because it looks more professional to have fewer participants?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

To chime in another voice in opposition:

I find Bayonetta extremely entertaining as a spectator. Way more than ZSS, Sheik, Rosaluma (pulling teeth),
I much prefer watching Bayo convert a single misstep into lots of damage/kill than Sheik death by a thousand little cuts, ZSS cookie cutter combos and Rosaluma spitting invisible-disjointed-hitboxes-to-win.

I'm not saying the character is balanced - I don't think she is - but she IS entertaining.

As a player, I find her combos are easy to avoid, because I play a low-combo window heavy kill projectile floaty, which is just about the worst thing for Bayo.

I can agree with this. I remember the Nairo vs. Dabuz Bayonetta mirror was greatly entertaining to watch. Perhaps the novelty just hasn't worn off yet, but I'm strangely okay with seeing a Bayonetta tear someone apart than a Sheik or ZSS doing the same. (No comment on Rosalina because main bias.)

Also Samus is definitely weird for Bayonetta to combo. She gives me fits in training mode of all places.

I don't mean to pry one way or another, but this is eerily similar to the Mii Fighters fiasco, only somewhat mixed-up in some strange bizarro alternate dimension.

We have a character(s) with a clear-cut gimmick (witch time,twist / alternate specials), and a lot of players angry about certain ease-of-use aspects (0-to-deaths with upB!! AHH!!) that are impressive in theory but mixed in practice.

The bizarro alternate dimension bit is in perspective. With Mii's, when players say "learn to adapt" they're told to eff-off and that the TO's word is law. That ZeRo is a super strong representative on the issue because "he doesn't like Mii Brawler," and Miis are soft-banned through their inaccess to the moves that make them fun to use and competitively viable.

Mirroring this, is ZeRo saying almost the same thing in that "adapting is useless when people will stop playing", and once again people are considering it a problem in one aspect or another, fueled largely by the top players who have agreed to disallow the character(s). TOs blindly accept and follow what the top players know and say, because TOs don't want their players angry at them. Ban everything because less players means more players!!

Why is this acceptable behavior on either front? With Miis, there's already a strict divide where players are unwelcome in their local community unless they, quoth the Vinnie, "play a REAL character". It's a subject of bullying and harassment on either front whether it be Miis or Bayonetta, and it's really disgusting.

But if there's one thing of note here, since it happened before with Miis, it's that Bayonetta is really not the issue. The issue is with aspects of the community, and the way we circulate and enforce really stupid information. Such as, topic example, "Bayonetta can deal 60% in one string for free" (even though she can't), and this will be taken into account by people who don't know anything about the character. This will be perceived as honest and true.

Part of the problem seems to be the receivers of the information. Either people fail to read the fine print, fail to understand other humans have feelings, or fail to correctly discuss the issue, and instead assume every rumor is true. It only takes a few bad eggs to screw a local, and enough locals to screw a national.

The irony is, it's my understanding (please correct me) that Spain actually does allow Miis with their full moveset? What crazy mirror universe am I looking at here, where america is super anti-Mii but hushed and evasive about Bayonetta?

In either instance, though, it's a soft-ban. Bayonettas are discouraged and avoided, where Miis are discouraged (through arbitrary law), and unplayed for parallel reasons. Pick a different character if you "want" to have "fun".

Why is it such a prevailing issue in parts of the smash4 community as to whether or not an outlier has to be banned for their differences? It's bogglingly similar to real-world distinguishing characteristics, and how they're handled or ignored. It has been for the longest time, $5.99 be damned. Are we really this eager to bleach ourselves of every flaw, because it looks more professional to have fewer participants?

I think the whole thing is a solid demonstration of how once an opinion picks up momentum and becomes widespread, it becomes really hard to turn around, regardless of the validity of the original opinion, the strength of any counterarguments, or even if patches make the original point moot. We sort of see shades of this in perceived character strength across patches, and the stage list seems practically immutable at this point unless some well known TO decides to experiment.

Also 60% "free" damage may be a bit much, but given a solid starter and conversion I'd call 30-40% an average combo for Bayonetta.

 

[teluoborg]

There's a big difference here. MK wasn't banned for years while Bayo has only been out for just 2 months. While she made remarkable progress, I say its still slightly too early to ban her because people haven't gotten completely used to her yet.

Yeah but my point is that this argument can be stretched out indefinitely.

People like to repeat what they hear without knowing much.
"She's easy!"
"One ABK and you lose 60% or your stock!"
"OMG That Up B just accidently killed at 13%, no other character can do that, so broken!"
"How can she have trouble escaping when she has frame 1 air dodges?"
"You can't DI out of her combos, ZeRo said so!"

The contrary is true too.
"Bro just DI down and away"
"Just SDI the witch twist"
"Just punish the landing lag it's AT LEAST 30 frames, but be careful to not get witch time'd tho"
"But her jab is frame 9 !"
"it's not broken look here's a gif of Jiggs resting at the end of WT2"

There are people that do not bring anything to the conversation on both sides, ignore them and move on.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I don't mean to pry one way or another, but this is eerily similar to the Mii Fighters fiasco, only somewhat mixed-up in some strange bizarro alternate dimension.

We have a character(s) with a clear-cut gimmick (witch time,twist / alternate specials), and a lot of players angry about certain ease-of-use aspects (0-to-deaths with upB!! AHH!!) that are impressive in theory but mixed in practice.

The bizarro alternate dimension bit is in perspective. With Mii's, when players say "learn to adapt" they're told to eff-off and that the TO's word is law. That ZeRo is a super strong representative on the issue because "he doesn't like Mii Brawler," and Miis are soft-banned through their inaccess to the moves that make them fun to use and competitively viable.

Mirroring this, is ZeRo saying almost the same thing in that "adapting is useless when people will stop playing", and once again people are considering it a problem in one aspect or another, fueled largely by the top players who have agreed to disallow the character(s). TOs blindly accept and follow what the top players know and say, because TOs don't want their players angry at them. Ban everything because less players means more players!!

Why is this acceptable behavior on either front? With Miis, there's already a strict divide where players are unwelcome in their local community unless they, quoth the Vinnie, "play a REAL character". It's a subject of bullying and harassment on either front whether it be Miis or Bayonetta, and it's really disgusting.

But if there's one thing of note here, since it happened before with Miis, it's that Bayonetta is really not the issue. The issue is with aspects of the community, and the way we circulate and enforce really stupid information. Such as, topic example, "Bayonetta can deal 60% in one string for free" (even though she can't), and this will be taken into account by people who don't know anything about the character. This will be perceived as honest and true.

Part of the problem seems to be the receivers of the information. Either people fail to read the fine print, fail to understand other humans have feelings, or fail to correctly discuss the issue, and instead assume every rumor is true. It only takes a few bad eggs to screw a local, and enough locals to screw a national.

The irony is, it's my understanding (please correct me) that Spain actually does allow Miis with their full moveset? What crazy mirror universe am I looking at here, where america is super anti-Mii but hushed and evasive about Bayonetta?

In either instance, though, it's a soft-ban. Bayonettas are discouraged and avoided, where Miis are discouraged (through arbitrary law), and unplayed for parallel reasons. Pick a different character if you "want" to have "fun".

Why is it such a prevailing issue in parts of the smash4 community as to whether or not an outlier has to be banned for their differences? It's bogglingly similar to real-world distinguishing characteristics, and how they're handled or ignored. It has been for the longest time, $5.99 be damned. Are we really this eager to bleach ourselves of every flaw, because it looks more professional to have fewer participants?

Miis are a tricky scenario because they don't cleanly fit into a conventional default-only ruleset. On one hand, nobody's going to want to play them competitively with 1111 sets only, but on the other hand it seems weird to give them moveset customization while denying it to other characters. Most people agree that Miis don't really provide balance issues, certainly not default-size Miis, but people have trouble agreeing on how to properly implement them into a default-only ruleset. With Bayonetta the only issue is balance, and that will likely go away within a month or two via patch.

 

[Radical Larry]

There's no way one can simply adapt to Bayonetta until they've fought her numerous times; it's not that simple. And if one player adapts to playing against one style of Bayonetta, Bayonetta will make another style equally as successful, but worse for the person who just adapted to her. Realize that adapting to one opponent character takes weeks, even months or an entire year to do depending on who you meet and how frequently you can meet people.

The issue of Bayonetta lies not in her zero-to-deaths, the counter arguments being DI and adapting, but it lies in the people themselves more so than others. I could even go on to say that Bayonetta only wins because people haven't taken the time to practice or adapt, and hell, pushing people to try adapting fast enough isn't the way to work it out either; it takes a gradual amount of time and that gradual amount of time will be such a long time.

In essence, arguments on whether or not to Bayoban her are tedious and inane subjects to talk about, when really, it should be about "How can we adapt to her in an efficient time?" or "How long will it take me to find out everything?", because if we can answer those questions, then the topic at hand is negligible and unnecessary at best.

The most troublesome thing that is even rational is her Witch Time, which is definitely an overpowering move in the long run, for people fear that the players will use such a thing and hit that brick wall of even adapting to Bayonetta, when if they can at least force Bayonetta into using it multiple times, they will have no fear of going against it due to the lessened time for the counter.

Now people have been wondering if a patch can fix her and if there will be a patch that does it; of course there's going to be a patch to nerf her, because the development team listens to the vocal people and will do something about it. That's how we got Sheik and Zero Suit Samus nerfed and Mewtwo buffed heavily. So in all, we're likely to have another balance update with DLC characters in the future, and possibly even some regular characters (Ganondorf speed buff and Link speed buff hopefully), but just wait for anything to occur.

We just need to study and practice what we can do about Bayonetta, but in the meantime, try finding some players and try not to argue a silly argument such as this.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Also 60% "free" damage may be a bit much, but given a solid starter and conversion I'd call 30-40% an average combo for Bayonetta.

This was something someone said a dozen pages ago or so, where they believed Bayo could get 60% off her combos as a general value. He was corrected that 45% is a more realistic maximum amount.

Either way, the perception pre-correction is an underlying problem: whether intentionally or in passing, players will come to the conclusion that the "broken character" (by extension misunderstood characters) can do things that they really can't. Whether this is Bayo's combos, Mii Brawler's Helicopter kick, or Shulk's Sheild art making counter stronger.

Some we can laugh off, others have lasting negative effect and, like you said, snowball into an unstoppable force. And it's getting kind of dumb. Even if we laugh at Shulk's Wind Monado, somewhere, someone lays awake at night thinking it's a really real thing.

Miis are a tricky scenario because they don't cleanly fit into a conventional default-only ruleset. On one hand, nobody's going to want to play them competitively with 1111 sets only, but on the other hand it seems weird to give them moveset customization while denying it to other characters. Most people agree that Miis don't really provide balance issues, certainly not default-size Miis, but people have trouble agreeing on how to properly implement them into a default-only ruleset. With Bayonetta the only issue is balance, and that will likely go away within a month or two via patch.

This is a conventional issue for another topic, but its come to a head that the problem was never with the logistics, but instead with what the TOs decide on. When presented with evidence that disprove their reasons, they do it anyway. When holding a poll with results that oppose them, they do it anyay.

And I'm certainly not saying this is a fault of every TO in the history of ever, but there are several who are intentionally saying to their players (through their actions), "you aren't welcome here, and you aren't welcome anywhere. Leave my community."

There are very sharp parallels between that and this issue.

 

[Zult]

I can agree with this. I remember the Nairo vs. Dabuz Bayonetta mirror was greatly entertaining to watch. Perhaps the novelty just hasn't worn off yet, but I'm strangely okay with seeing a Bayonetta tear someone apart than a Sheik or ZSS doing the same. (No comment on Rosalina because main bias.)

Also Samus is definitely weird for Bayonetta to combo. She gives me fits in training mode of all places.


I think the whole thing is a solid demonstration of how once an opinion picks up momentum and becomes widespread, it becomes really hard to turn around, regardless of the validity of the original opinion, the strength of any counterarguments, or even if patches make the original point moot. We sort of see shades of this in perceived character strength across patches, and the stage list seems practically immutable at this point unless some well known TO decides to experiment.

Also 60% "free" damage may be a bit much, but given a solid starter and conversion I'd call 30-40% an average combo for Bayonetta.

Many characters can do 30% with one combo. Sheik, Diddy, Luigi, DK, Bowser, Sonic, etc

 

[Muster]

I don't know the situation with Gill in 3S (I know as a boss, he had a move that revived him when KO'd, I don't know if he had that as a playable character), but with Akuma, he straight up broke the game's rules. The game, simply put, couldn't handle things like air fireballs or the various other tools in his arsenal, and supposedly Capcom employees straight-up told Japanese players at the time that he was deliberately designed to be too good to use in tournaments and, as a playable character, was meant to be just for fun.

Gil is hilariously broken in a lot of ways too (invincible super, or super that revives to full health? you don't even have to choose, you get all of them! What's that? you want better versions of uriens moves that are motions instead of charges? sure here you go!), and he's a secret character that i don't even think is playable in the arcade version of SF3.

"Bro just DI down and away"
"Just SDI the witch twist"

These are legitimate tactics, Sdi inwards on witch twist can get you out of it backward (this is the harder of the two to pull off, for sure), and SDI outwards makes it harder to follow up after the last hit. mixing up the DI helps more than just DI away, though.

Some we can laugh off, others have lasting negative effect and, like you said, snowball into an unstoppable force. And it's getting kind of dumb. Even if we laugh at Shulk's Wind Monado, somewhere, someone lays awake at night thinking it's a really real thing.

.

It really bothers me that a lot of people out there genuinely believe that bayonetta is "toxic" just because of ZeRo's video.

 

[Greward]

There's no DI saving you from bayonetta combos that involve divekick and upB. There is, although it doesn't always work, DI to escape combos that use afterburner kick (not divekick version), although she won't usually kill you without an aerial attack if she doesn't use divekicks in the combo.
SDI is a maybe there. I haven't seen it happen much but if something is able to take you out of the combo, then it's SDI.

Bayonetta can and should always kill you if she connects a divekick while you are in the air, no matter the %.

The ban position is because Bayo both has a problematic gameplay and is the best character in the game, without a doubt. The difference with Miis is that they aren't that good of a character + they don't have anything too problematic gameplay-wise, they are banned because ??? (I guess it's cause they look ugly?).

And as ZeRo said, Bayonetta is better than Ice climbers .

 

[GeneralLedge]

It really bothers me that a lot of people out there genuinely believe that bayonetta is "toxic" just because of ZeRo's video.

It's often that a lot of perceptions in the smash community make me wish I could magic my way to the top of the tournament ranks so I could start setting things straight, or at least attempt to.

This is unrealistic. Equally unrealistic that we listen to the people who are in exactly the wrong position (winning consistently) to manipulate what is and isn't legal, but we do that anyway. For some reason.

I'm sort of surprised this hasn't been abused, and it's hard for me to perceive it as outside the realm of potential abuse. All a top contender would have to say is "ban ZSS and rosa because idk lol" and a zillion TOs will potentially do it, and the top contender would earn easy wins and easy money, and stay the top contender. Golly.

But this is getting off topic. I'll chill now.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Why is a ban being discussed for a character that hasnt yet been proven to be anywhere near prepatch Sheik level of op'ness again? When while Sheik had no bad matchups a future patch nerfing her wasnt even being considered due to Sakurai having said development had ceased? Whereas now a future patch nerfing Bayonetta hard seems rather likely given that her for glory win ratio is probably pretty high and the japanese hate her guts and she like does rly well in japan?

Its because shes really lame and everyone hates her. And because unlike Sheik she takes no skill, and because unlike Sheik she does well online benefitting from lag. These are not valid reason. They don't suffice for discussion. Having this discussion here is giving voice to a mass which shouldnt have one as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Buddhahobo]

It's often that a lot of perceptions in the smash community make me wish I could magic my way to the top of the tournament ranks so I could start setting things straight, or at least attempt to.

This is unrealistic. Equally unrealistic that we listen to the people who are in exactly the wrong position (winning consistently) to manipulate what is and isn't legal, but we do that anyway. For some reason.

I'm sort of surprised this hasn't been abused, and it's hard for me to perceive it as outside the realm of potential abuse. All a top contender would have to say is "ban ZSS and rosa because idk lol" and a zillion TOs will potentially do it, and the top contender would earn easy wins and easy money, and stay the top contender. Golly.

But this is getting off topic. I'll chill now.

I'd argue it does have merit in the discussion, actually, as it's something I believe leads into something Shaya was sort of talking about in a previous post.

We've got top players with massive social media followings (a quick google search puts ZeRo at 70k twitter followers and near 150,000 youtube subscribers) who have absolutely no concept of personal responsibility with respect to content creation, and then comes a release like that Bayo video where he essentially says all Bayo players hate the game, want to kill the community, is completely toxic with no redeemable qualities, are tier whores, and if they deny any of this, they're deliberately lying to prevent a nerf.

I've had people tell me point blank after that video came out when I've told them to knock it off with the heckling that it's not heckling, because they're just doing what's best for their game. That I'm blind to how they're all "Bayoniggas" as Anti was putting it on twitter for quite awhile.

And they may never be as extreme as what ICs were theorized to be or shown to be. But if they're anything like what ICs forced upon players, then I vehemently disagree that waiting for the game to be dead or over saturated with results (which will be subjective and interpreted by certain people to "not be enough yet") is the right decision.

It's reasonable, I believe anyway, to assert that that will never actually happen from how Bayonetta is relative to the rest of the cast alone.

The US had an enormous amount of (a bet anecdotal, but the numbers from streams, the greater circuits Smash is in, and tournament attendance would seem to agree with me) growth and retention rates during the months we were doing customs at 3/4ths of the touraments in the country + still dealing with Pre-Patched Diddy Kong. If Custom Villagers and Expanding Dongs up-bing about didn't seem to hinder / prevent growth and retention rates, then Bayonetta really doesn't have a shot at killing it when the things that came before her couldn't if everything else was equal...which it, well, isn't. (On a tangent, one could also say that had customs not been there to act as a buffer window, Apex 2015 might have nipped everything in the bud, but that's for another thread)

If it's really the perception of a Character that matters, not the data, then we may as well ban now everywhere, honestly. It doesn't matter how good she is, how bad she is, her strengths, weaknesses, etc, then. The perception of Bayonetta is unlike anything Smash has had thus far, due to social media and specific figure heads saying things without considering just what they're telling their highly impressionable audience on a much larger scene than it's ever been before. This prevailing groupie mindset is deeply concerning.

 

[Charoite]

There's no DI saving you from bayonetta combos that involve divekick and upB. There is, although it doesn't always work, DI to escape combos that use afterburner kick (not divekick version), although she won't usually kill you without an aerial attack if she doesn't use divekicks in the combo.
SDI is a maybe there. I haven't seen it happen much but if something is able to take you out of the combo, then it's SDI.

Bayonetta can and should always kill you if she connects a divekick while you are in the air, no matter the %.

The ban position is because Bayo both has a problematic gameplay and is the best character in the game, without a doubt. The difference with Miis is that they aren't that good of a character + they don't have anything too problematic gameplay-wise, they are banned because ??? (I guess it's cause they look ugly?).

And as ZeRo said, Bayonetta is better than Ice climbers .

Bayonetta attacks can be shielded, a mechanic that ice climbers invalidate and punish you with real 0- to deaths(with them there actually no DI that can save you) for using against them, tell me how a character that can punish you for using a defensive option intended in the game is worse that bayo, because zero say it so, that is not an actual argument only a opinión.

 

[Ninety]

We've got top players with massive social media followings (a quick google search puts ZeRo at 70k twitter followers and near 150,000 youtube subscribers) who have absolutely no concept of personal responsibility with respect to content creation, and then comes a release like that Bayo video where he essentially says all Bayo players hate the game, want to kill the community, is completely toxic with no redeemable qualities, are tier whores, and if they deny any of this, they're deliberately lying to prevent a nerf.

We must have watched very different videos. But hey, don't let veracity get in the way of ZeRo bashing.

 

[Buddhahobo]

We must have watched very different videos. But hey, don't let veracity get in the way of ZeRo bashing.

I can provide time stamps and partial transcriptions if you really want to go down that road, but it's also off topic and doesn't change the actual point being made in that post.

 

[blackghost]

And as ZeRo said, Bayonetta is better than Ice climbers .

if i was you i'd stop quoting zero with any regards to this character. he hasn't proven to be knowledgable about her all he has done is make a video that made people think it was ok to treat baytonetta players poorly becaus eshe "carries" them dispite no evidence used to back that up.
she's not worse than the ice climbers in brawl or melee. there's a post on this page about how the ice climbers are always threatening your stock with a grab. she isn't nearly that threatening.

 

[Buddhahobo]

if i was you i'd stop quoting zero with any regards to this character. he hasn't proven to be knowledgable about her all he has done is make a video that made people think it was ok to treat baytonetta players poorly becaus eshe "carries" them dispite no evidence used to back that up.
she's not worse than the ice climbers in brawl or melee. there's a post on this page about how the ice climbers are always threatening your stock with a grab. she isn't nearly that threatening.

Obviously you know my opinion of that video, but I would ask that remember yourself a tad as you're coming off a bit harsher than you may be intending. This is supposed to be a civil discussion, with cool heads, after all.

ZeRo is more than welcome to his opinion of the character, or any character, as is anyone else. He is also welcome to share these opinions, as is anyone else, and his beliefs in her possible match ups.

 

[GeneralLedge]

I've had people tell me point blank after that video came out when I've told them to knock it off with the heckling that it's not heckling, because they're just doing what's best for their game. That I'm blind to how they're all "Bayoniggas" as Anti was putting it on twitter for quite awhile.

I really never want to be one, nor do I hold any right, to say whether or not something will "kill Smash 4," but if there ever was one, it would be the blind lemming white-knight attitude a lot of players carry.

And a large part of me thinks it's sort of a revelation with the internet and social media in general. It's easier to listen than it is to speak, and we want the easiest and fastest decisions. Ban Bayonetta 2 months in, because it's fast and easy. Ban custom moves within year 1 because it's fast and easy. Stick your head in a hole in the ground and wait for the danger to pass, because it's fast and easy.

No thinking required! Be an NPC today!~


But that's really coy of me. I just genuinely want to know the thought process behind so many lemming situations -- do they think it's for the better for everyone they don't know, all the people who don't know or care who they are or what their name is, to trash on someone they do, that does? Why is there such a huge blockade between cause and effect for so many people and players?

I don't want to say "git gud" (and shouldn't, that's worthless), but if you want to be the best player of any game, you need to learn every aspect. I will never honestly hold any top player as "the best in the world" per title unless they hold this torch in actuality, and not simply because they played Sheik really well. Openly and willingly avoiding and ignoring any single character or gimmick or aspect of the game, voids your chances at ever being "the best in the world" at it. So why can't they stop doing it??

 

[ARISTOS]

I'm not opposed to a ban down the line (IMO sometime after summer Smash, where we have time to really delve into the potential harms Bayonetta brings).

However, the current debate I see as a bit reactionary and not heavily warranted at this time once you sit down and look at the statistics and even the theory behind Bayo.

My biggest gripe at the moment seems to be that the real thing holding off people from bans is that Bayo "will" be getting nerfed. This forces two options:

1. Bayo gets nerfed and we move on
2. Bayo gets banned

I don't think this is a complete analysis of the situation at hand and denies players the chance of learning or combating strategies.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

she's not worse than the ice climbers in brawl or melee. there's a post on this page about how the ice climbers are always threatening your stock with a grab. she isn't nearly that threatening.

Witch Time is basically an IC grab because it opens people up to massive combos for little to no cost on her end outside of reading her opponent's inputs, which any competent player does in tournaments.

In fact, Witch Time is better than the IC grab in being a threat, because IC's were considered bad outside of wobbling. Bayonetta is an A+ character with a free psuedo-Wobble on a read, one of the most insane combo games and advantage states in Smash history and a projectile which is both rapid to come out and good at pressuring. Not even Melee Fox had all these traits; he had a good pressure projectile and a great combo game, but he had no reliable way of netting KO's off of simple mistakes like misspaced jabs.

Sure, she's not Brawl Meta Knight in terms of raw power (though I'd argue Witch Time+Twist make her close), but she's clearly a cut above the rest of the cast in the same way Icies and Meta Knight were in Brawl.

Hell, the only reason IC's aren't banned BECAUSE of Wobbling is because, again, outside of Wobbling, the IC's are trash. Bayonetta doesn't need a Wobble, she already has plenty of ways to kill people off of mistakes. Both characters force anybody playing against them to play differently; the only difference is that IC's need Wobbling to be a threat while Bayo doesn't need WT to act as a threat. WT is such a constant threat that it basically kills anybody without good projectiles and that have big hitboxes.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

I don't quite understand all of the bashing on ZeRo. The guy shared his opinion, and he didn't tell others what to think, he just said it how he saw it and that's all. You can't tell someone that they're opinion is wrong. That's the great thing about opinions, they aren't true or false. But here's why the bashing really annoys me: This man understands the meta and the game so much more than most of us ever will dream of understanding it. I can't even explain to you how much knowledge he has in regards to smash. More over, he's been a member of the community for a very long time, much longer than most of us. He is on a completely different level in so many aspects. Does that mean his opinion is the one-all-be-all? Absolutely not. However, he also shouldn't be ignored or ridiculed. Someone as experienced and smart as him should at least be listened to.

 

[Buddhahobo]

Witch Time is basically an IC grab because it opens people up to massive combos for little to no cost on her end outside of reading her opponent's inputs, which any competent player does in tournaments.

I still don't understand this comparison.

Witch Time is closer to being described as a worse Melee!Jigglypuff's rest with a splash of Wario's Waft mechanics thrown in. After all, the argument being presented is that it's an instant KO, is it not?

And are you honestly saying that competent players never mess up their counters / wafts / rests? I must be misreading that part, and would appreciate clarification on that point.

 

[NotLiquid]

Witch Time = Ice Climbers grab is like, a shallow, knee-deep puddle comparison at best. This is why I far prefer comparing Bayonetta to Melee Jigglypuff because the risk of going for a grab with Brawl Ice Climbers are incredibly low in comparison to Witch Time, which is never as binary of a state. You might end up getting caught with Witch Time in a poor angle that won't allow Bayonetta to properly follow up. You might be hitting Witch Time with a multi-hit move which can cancel Bayonetta's follow-up. You might not even activate Witch Time if the player recognizes that grabs are a better strategy against Bayonetta due to her limited CQC options. You might have forced her to stale the move to remove the amount of effects they gain from it. You might end up activating Bat Within which is possible to make a read off of. Why do you think so many players often opt not to go for it?

With Ice Climbers you just land a grab that's about as easy as landing a tilt.

But here's why the bashing really annoys me: This man understands the meta and the game so much more than most of us ever will dream of understanding it. I can't even explain to you how much knowledge he has in regards to smash. More over, he's been a member of the community for a very long time, much longer than most of us. He is on a completely different level in so many aspects. Does that mean his opinion is the one-all-be-all? Absolutely not. However, he also shouldn't be ignored or ridiculed. Someone as experienced and smart as him should at least be listened to.

ZeRo has a habit of wording things very poorly and not knowing restraint. I'm going to assume that him making the video on Smash players in Social Media might be an acknowledgment of that fact. The problem isn't so much with what he's saying as opposed to how it's gotten interpreted by a lot of people. That's the risk of being on display. Hell, he's even one of the people who actively opposes a ban against Bayonetta because he wants to figure out how to beat her, so in the grand scheme of things he probably errs more to the side who heavily dispute the controversy as of late in spite of having inadvertedly fueled a lot of misconceptions in the first place.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

I still don't understand this comparison.

Witch Time is closer to being described as a worse Melee!Jigglypuff's rest with a splash of Wario's Waft mechanics thrown in. After all, the argument being presented is that it's an instant KO, is it not?

Rest and Waft aren't instant KO's, though; a Jigglypuff landing Rest on you at 0% isn't going to kill you, and neither would Wario's Waft. They're powerful moves, but using them isn't a way to net a instant K.O at absurdly low percents, and Rest has such an absurdly small hitbox that you basically need to be right beside the opponent for it's power to even matter; otherwise, it's leaving you a sitting duck with no benefit. Sure, a whiffed Witch Time leaves you potentially open, but who would throw out Witch Time like a fool anyways? It's a punish move, you don't throw those in neutral and if you do, you are bad at the metagame.

And are you honestly saying that competent players never mess up their counters / wafts / rests? I must be misreading that part, and would appreciate clarification on that point.

No, I'm saying that they have a much higher success rate using stuff like WT, Counters, Waft and Rest if they are able to read the opponent's input, which they should know considering reads are the most important concept that a competetive Smasher needs to learn in order to be successful.

And only one of those four moves has the ability to link into a combo to the top blast zone, in any case. Really, Bayo would have been considered fine (to me) if she had some big downside to her that made her risky to fudge up with, but a very powerful character when you master her.

If Bayonetta was Ryu 2.0, then I doubt any controversy would have been seen on my end. It's the fact that she has basically no major faults in terms of the stages of gameplay (advantaged stage, disadvantaged stage and neutral); Bullet Arts is a good move to use in neutral, Witch Time makes her punishes absurdly powerful and can link into top-blastzone kills. She's got laggy smashes, but again NOBODY throws smashes out in neutral anyways, certainly not if their framedata isn't great.

We've only had her for, what, a month and a half? Let's not go jumping into the "SHE'S NOT UNBALANCED, YOU NEED TO GIT GUD" wagon, because that same wagon is what led to MK in Brawl basically dominating the rest of the cast in tournaments. Her usage is already very high, who's to say it won't keep rising as Bayo mains learn more and more about her meta, and ways to circumvent her negative traits?

There's no need to strictly BAN HER right now, but we should keep it in mind as a precaution, because Brawl had this same issue and they kept putting it off until it was too late, and that delaying of the removal of content that is proving to have a negative impact is why Brawl died out.

If Bayo's results only improve from here, than she should definitely be at the least given a suspect test, if not a proper ban.

 

[Zult]

There's no DI saving you from bayonetta combos that involve divekick and upB. There is, although it doesn't always work, DI to escape combos that use afterburner kick (not divekick version), although she won't usually kill you without an aerial attack if she doesn't use divekicks in the combo.
SDI is a maybe there. I haven't seen it happen much but if something is able to take you out of the combo, then it's SDI.

Bayonetta can and should always kill you if she connects a divekick while you are in the air, no matter the %.

The ban position is because Bayo both has a problematic gameplay and is the best character in the game, without a doubt. The difference with Miis is that they aren't that good of a character + they don't have anything too problematic gameplay-wise, they are banned because ??? (I guess it's cause they look ugly?).

And as ZeRo said, Bayonetta is better than Ice climbers .

This is just flat out wrong.

 

[GeneralLedge]

A passing thought on theorizing Bayonetta's game plan - I wonder what if somehow knockback acted the opposite for her than the rest of the cast. Like, a high BKB but a negative KBG for most of her combo moves.

Ergo, in theory, her elevator combos would fail at low percent and succeed at high percents.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

A passing thought on theorizing Bayonetta's game plan - I wonder what if somehow knockback acted the opposite for her than the rest of the cast. Like, a high BKB but a negative KBG for most of her combo moves.

Ergo, in theory, her elevator combos would fail at low percent and succeed at high percents.

This would be perfect, especially since this means that characters like Charizard, DK and Bowser don't have to live in perpetual fear of getting elevatored at hilariously low percents.

Really, I'd give Witch Time a similar property; making the amount of time that it slows opponents decrease as percentages go down; so a WT at 0% would only slow someone down for a short span (maybe like a second), while a WT at 50% is basically what WT is right now, and a WT at 100% is even more effective. That way it's not nearly as easy to set up into chains off of Witch Time at low percents, raising her risk/reward ratio.

 

[AkiraGr]

I am really curious if any of the people asking for a ban have tested Bayonetta themselves. How did we reach the conclusion that she is easy to play? Early to pick up and 0%-Death everyone? Do you know how difficult is to pull even the "Witch Ballet"(copyright named by me lol) move(Two UpSpecial in a row). The timing and the just frame jump cancels that allows you to do the high kills? Bayonetta involves a lot of skill to use like Ryu. Why people do not argue about Ryu Focus attack that can follow with a instant kill move? About Rosalina that can UpAir you at 20% over the blast zone in every stage.

Only in Smash Community I see this knee jerk reaction about a character that nobody understand how to play against because they refuse to learn the match up. I know Smash community is a huge one and very popular but I only see biased opinions getting popular traction because of ZeRo's video.

Also

There's no DI saving you from bayonetta combos that involve divekick and upB. There is, although it doesn't always work, DI to escape combos that use afterburner kick (not divekick version), although she won't usually kill you without an aerial attack if she doesn't use divekicks in the combo.
SDI is a maybe there. I haven't seen it happen much but if something is able to take you out of the combo, then it's SDI.

Bayonetta can and should always kill you if she connects a divekick while you are in the air, no matter the %.

The ban position is because Bayo both has a problematic gameplay and is the best character in the game, without a doubt. The difference with Miis is that they aren't that good of a character + they don't have anything too problematic gameplay-wise, they are banned because ??? (I guess it's cause they look ugly?).

And as ZeRo said, Bayonetta is better than Ice climbers .

This guy here is keep spreading misinformation about Bayonetta, he is entitled to his opinion, but like ZeRo he is a very popular player that lost a tournament to his local scene because he didn't know the Bayonetta Match Up. So drive by posts about banning are a result of a sour loser in the Spanish competitive scene.

He keeps lying about the Japanese scene that they have trouble with Bayonetta also but there is not proof or a claim by the Japanese community to back his claims. Aba, 9B and other prominent players in Japan and 9B is Bayonetta main did not said anything when they were asked about the matter.

The other annoying thing that trends in the Smash Community are the constant tier list discussions,nerfs and OP characters in the game. Never I see discussions about how good is the PLAYER which is controlling the characters are.

"Sheik is broken", "Little Mac is OP", "Rosalina and Luma are broken", "Zero Suit has won to many tourneys which means she is broken"... Now Bayonetta.

Have you ever crossed your mind that players like Nairo, ZeRo, Mr.R, Abandango, 9B, Pink Fresh, Jaz and other players that are coming up in the scene are busting their ass in training and learning the match ups of the game. 1 year and people are expecting Smash 4 to reach it's full potential in the match ups in a roster of 58 characters and constant changing of the meta because of patches? And it is two months since the last DLC characters arrived and people are complaining about bans? Are we even serious? Corrin can kill you with a single counter strike, Cloud with finishing touch limit from 50%, Sheik frame data are ridiculous the most difficult character to punish in the game, Rosalina has a moving disjointed killer and shield with her all the time, Mario Fair can meteor kill you at 35%, Little Mac has super armor in all his Smashes and Fsmash coming at frame 6 or 15(with super armor Huge Knock Back). All characters have unique trades the problem is that they need competent players to play them well.

In a competitive scene there are constant information and upcoming players with unique twists in new characters that are not even explored their potential because of bad reputation as being low tier. Smash for is yet to reach it's full potential, not even close.

So the point is, what we want to do with the game? Do we start playing and discover all the possibilities all the roster is giving us freaking 58 characters, learn how to play neutral and defensive game, learn the unique trades of each character and how to use them is a competitive way OR become like Greward, ZeRo who are complaining when they lose an advantage or a tournament and rouse up the community with lies about broken characters to pass their bias.

Great players or athletes are trying to overcome difficulties NOT asking for easier challenges. Imagine what would happen in the track field sports if every athlete was complaining and asking to ban Usain Bolt because he is to quick for them to compete or his shoes(Bayonetta) because they thing it gives him an advantage in the track or asking to run with only one foot(nerfed) because he is TOO FAST.

 

[Zult]

Rest and Waft aren't instant KO's, though; a Jigglypuff landing Rest on you at 0% isn't going to kill you, and neither would Wario's Waft. They're powerful moves, but using them isn't a way to net a instant K.O at absurdly low percents, and Rest has such an absurdly small hitbox that you basically need to be right beside the opponent for it's power to even matter; otherwise, it's leaving you a sitting duck with no benefit. Sure, a whiffed Witch Time leaves you potentially open, but who would throw out Witch Time like a fool anyways? It's a punish move, you don't throw those in neutral and if you do, you are bad at the metagame.


No, I'm saying that they have a much higher success rate using stuff like WT, Counters, Waft and Rest if they are able to read the opponent's input, which they should know considering reads are the most important concept that a competetive Smasher needs to learn in order to be successful.

And only one of those four moves has the ability to link into a combo to the top blast zone, in any case. Really, Bayo would have been considered fine (to me) if she had some big downside to her that made her risky to fudge up with, but a very powerful character when you master her.

If Bayonetta was Ryu 2.0, then I doubt any controversy would have been seen on my end. It's the fact that she has basically no major faults in terms of the stages of gameplay (advantaged stage, disadvantaged stage and neutral); Bullet Arts is a good move to use in neutral, Witch Time makes her punishes absurdly powerful and can link into top-blastzone kills. She's got laggy smashes, but again NOBODY throws smashes out in neutral anyways, certainly not if their framedata isn't great.

We've only had her for, what, a month and a half? Let's not go jumping into the "SHE'S NOT UNBALANCED, YOU NEED TO GIT GUD" wagon, because that same wagon is what led to MK in Brawl basically dominating the rest of the cast in tournaments. Her usage is already very high, who's to say it won't keep rising as Bayo mains learn more and more about her meta, and ways to circumvent her negative traits?

There's no need to strictly BAN HER right now, but we should keep it in mind as a precaution, because Brawl had this same issue and they kept putting it off until it was too late, and that delaying of the removal of content that is proving to have a negative impact is why Brawl died out.

If Bayo's results only improve from here, than she should definitely be at the least given a suspect test, if not a proper ban.

Did you just say witch time is a punish move? Uh... no. Witch time is a move you use when going for a hard read (at least at higher levels of play). If you use that move twice within a short period of time then you lose access to it for a good 30+ seconds because any witch time after the second use it completely useless. That's when you go all in against her. Furthermore, witch time is no where near wobbling and not comparable to waft or rest. Witch time takes two people to activate. If my opponent decides only to throw out moves when he knows it'll hit or only go for grabs then my witch time is borderline useless outside of making a super hard read. This of course requires you to be playing super patient. And guess what, bad players really hate playing patient. Bayonetta is a noob destroyer. Meaning she has the tools to stomp noobs who have no idea (but they think they have an idea) what they're doing. This is the same reason why most noobs hate Ness. One mistake at high percentages and Ness kills you with a grab. What do noobs do? They make lots of mistakes. What does Bayonetta do really well? Punish mistakes really hard. I can't help but cringe at watching most people play against Bayonetta. I've played against good Bayos with Pit and it was doable. Maybe because I know how to fight her and DI?

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Great players or athletes are trying to overcome difficulties NOT asking for easier challenges. Imagine what would happen in the track field sports if every athlete was complaining and asking to ban Usain Bolt because he is to quick for them to compete or his shoes(Bayonetta) because they thing it gives him an advantage in the track or asking to run with only one foot(nerfed) because he is TOO FAST.

....what?

Nobody would seriously consider even asking about banning Usain Bolt because he's too fast in a race; I've been in a track team before, that's one of the most laughable ideas I've ever seen for a comparison. You can't equate a man that took years to become the fastest man in the world to a character in a fighting game that, within only a month or so, has been taking many tournaments in other parts of the world. That's one of, if not the worst, comparisons I think I've ever heard.

One put a lot of hard work, sweat and dedication into being what he is, the other was just created this way with no buildup. And even if somebody DID complain about it, you know how the officials would react?
By simply telling him to suck it up, because you can never ban somebody from something they love just for having taken time from their lives to master it only because somebody whined it was unfair to them to have to race him.

In sports, you can't cry that a thing needs to/shouldn't be banned unless you have a good reason to do so. Imagine if hockey goalies all started complaining about how slapshots needed to be banned because good slapshots from a good shot could be pretty damaging to the goalie's health. That'd be a good reason to consider banning slapshots; after all, teams need goalies to keep the puck from going into the goal very often.
Not banning them because spectators like them is not a good reason, because without the players, the spectators have nothing to watch; thus, players take priority over spectators, as one is more crucial than the other.

Banning Bayonetta because she isn't fun for people to play against is a good reason; after all, Smash needs players to keep the attendance of tournaments and viewer count on streams high pretty often.
Not banning Bayonetta because spectators like her is not a good reason, because without players, the spectators have nothing to watch; thus, players take priority over spectators, as one is more crucial than the other.

 

[AkiraGr]

One put a lot of hard work, sweat and dedication into being what he is, the other was just created this way with no buildup. And even if somebody DID complain about it, you know how the officials would react?
By simply telling him to suck it up, because you can never ban somebody from something they love just for having taken time from their lives to master it only because somebody whined it was unfair to them to have to race him.

In sports, you can't cry that a thing needs to/shouldn't be banned unless you have a good reason to do so. Imagine if hockey goalies all started complaining about how slapshots needed to be banned because good slapshots from a good shot could be pretty damaging to the goalie's health. That'd be a good reason to consider banning slapshots; after all, teams need goalies to keep the puck from going into the goal very often.
Not banning them because spectators like them is not a good reason, because without the players, the spectators have nothing to watch; thus, players take priority over spectators, as one is more crucial than the other.

Exactly what I am agree with you in the bolt part. Like it or not Smash has become an eSport. And like in sports people train to achieve results. All Bayonetta players train hard they did not achieve victories because of the character. That opinion is very disrespectful for all competitive players in the community. The character only came out two months ago. So You can not pass judgement when people even in competitive scene do not main the character. SO NO MATCH UP DATA are available only salty losers claims.

Of course Bayonetta or Corrin or Cloud could win major tournaments in this short time if a good players focus on them to take advantage the lack of information of counter strategies in their play. I find it incredibly stupid for people to complain rather than double time focus on how to deal with the new strategies the new DLC characters bring into the meta. Again IT IS THE PLAYERS strategies that WIN not the game CHARACTERS whom the player CONTROLS.

So what will going to be from now on for the competitive smash community? Bent over to uninformative bias opinions OR stand our ground to make the meta even more varied and rich with new options and getting new players getting good with their character of choice to tackle any match up?

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

So what will going to be from now on for the competitive smash community? Bent over to uninformative bias opinions OR stand our ground to make the meta even more varied and rich with new options and getting new players getting good with their character of choice to tackle any match up?

Oh, the Charizard/Bayonetta, Bowser/Bayonetta, DK/Bayonetta, Ganondorf/Bayonetta and Dedede/Bayonetta MU's are so fun to tackle...NOT. >_> Of course there's bias here; there's always going to BE bias in here, because bias IS A NATURAL HUMAN TRAIT. Bayo mains are JUST as biased as anybody else, there are no special snowflakes of unbias here. :/

And considering banning her is not the same as rapidly slamming the banhammer down just because of one guy's theorycrafting, which nobody did (not even Spain, by the way!). If the Bayonetta MU's are not at all fun for players of multiple other characters that were doing decently well before to have to constantly tiptoe for ONE MU, then that is a reason to consider bans, because losing fun is what drives players away, and without players, there's no spectators. Never put the players behind what spectators want, because without players, spectators wouldn't have a reason to watch the game in the first place.

Players are the important thing for Smash, and if Bayonetta is going to drive away players (and therefore attendance, and spectatorship with it), then Bayonetta will need to go, especially if she continues making a big splash in the scene without signs of letting up. Let us remember that Abadango himself also mains Bayonetta, so him beating a character he plays extensively as his other main (Mewtwo) isn't surprising in the least.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Witch time is a move you use when going for a hard read (at least at higher levels of play).

You consider it a hard read? The primary criticism of Bayonetta is that she is low risk high reward. Witch Time is something that people throw out just in case. Either nothing bad happens, or Bayonetta starts a devastating combo. Yeah, it's such a hard read...