Banning Bayonetta in Tournaments

[SoccerStar9001]

C3CC, Bayonetta wasn't banned, the statement was unofficial. The official statement is no.

 

[AkiraGr]

C3CC, Bayonetta wasn't banned, the statement was unofficial. The official statement is no.

Any link that proves that Spain had reconsider and said no to the ban? Also what messures are they planning to do against the player that created this confusion in the community?

 

[teluoborg]

Read any of Greward's posts in this thread : the ban is being discussed and the majority is strongly in its favor but it's not effective yet.

 

[AkiraGr]

Read any of Greward's posts in this thread : the ban is being discussed and the majority is strongly in its favor but it's not effective yet.

I read his posts and also saw the official twitter account from the SpainSmashCommunity. The above post said they already overuled the ban. But did not see it in their official page. The problem is that Gregward created a big confusion not only on his local competitive scene but also was trying to create an international incident projecting his bias opinion on the matter. Taking advantage his popularity on the Spanish competitive scene to pass a ban.

No one ever tried to do that before in FGC so blatantly to force his bias on an uninformative people to get a mob to support his thesis on the ban.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Any link that proves that Spain had reconsider and said no to the ban? Also what messures are they planning to do against the player that created this confusion in the community?

https://twitter.com/SmashBrosSpain/status/717683508894908417

 

[teluoborg]

I read his posts and also saw the official twitter account from the SpainSmashCommunity. The above post said they already overuled the ban. But did not see it in their official page. The problem is that Gregward created a big confusion not only on his local competitive scene but also was trying to create an international incident projecting his bias opinion on the matter. Taking advantage his popularity on the Spanish competitive scene to pass a ban.

No one ever tried to do that before in FGC so blatantly to force his bias on an uninformative people to get a mob to support his thesis on the ban.

So you didn't read his posts. All he did was ask Aba the views of the japanese scene on twitter and that was when everything exploded, with people jumping to conclusions and going full sensationalism like you're trying to do with your "no one ever tried that in the FGC" and stuff.

Bayo hasn't been banned yet and everything you understood from the matter is wrong, so chill and discuss the subject at hand instead of getting all offended.

 

[AkiraGr]

So you didn't read his posts. All he did was ask Aba the views of the japanese scene on twitter and that was when everything exploded, with people jumping to conclusions and going full sensationalism like you're trying to do with your "no one ever tried that in the FGC" and stuff.

Bayo hasn't been banned yet and everything you understood from the matter is wrong, so chill and discuss the subject at hand instead of getting all offended.

Sorry to come on the subject so hard but look here to see what he said when all this drama started. He deleted the tweet now but he was said that Bayo was OFFICIALLY banned. With a #RIPBAYO.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4dhlag/the_spanish_smash_community_is_considering/

So hell didn't start when he twitted to Aba he tried to create a bias situation to pass his opinion as fact. I am not offended by the way. I am doubt founded by this situation it looks so utterly nonsensical.

 

[KenkoRPG]

There's no official statement yet. We're still discussing the situation.
It's hard because each region has it's own community and we all have to agree, but almost everyone is voting for banning her.

 

[chaosmaster1991]

I have the urge to throw in my $0.02, however, it's undeniable that I lack the credentials for a particularly educated opinion on the subject, so feel free to move along (I certainly would).

Anyway, maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea not to ask "Should Bayonetta be banned?", but rather "When should we ban a character?", a notion which I believe came up in Brawl as well (I might be misremembering) and never really went anywhere. There's the sirlinistic view of needing to have 8:2 MUs or whatever across the board which was brought up a few pages ago, but as was also said, that's kind of outdated by now since the whole scene has changed quite a bit and it's not easy to determine and agree on MU numbers in the first place. One significant advantage of actually establishing criteria for this process would be that personal bias should be largely removed.

In this context I'd like to bring up an FGC example, namely Blazblue character Kokonoe. She was perceived as broken and there was in fact a community poll about banning her. As you can see, about a 2/3 majority was in favor of the ban. From what I've been told, that ban didn't actually happen on a bigger scale (and she was patched eventually), but in hindsight (again, nothing more than anecdotal evidence here) the general consensus seems to be that it should've happened. So I guess it's maybe not too different from Brawl MK/ICs. There's another interesting point to take away from that poll though. Apparently, even though it wasn't the final result, for a long time there was an obvious correlation between maining Kokonoe and thinking whether she should be banned or not (click). In other words, this more or less supports what Kip Shades already mentioned, but it really goes both ways.

So maybe we can at least say that neither MUs nor polls are infallible methods of determining whether or not a character should be banned. So are there other options? And the answer is of course yes, I'm pretty sure some of them have even been brought up in this very thread. In my personal opinion (and I have no doubts that a lot of people will disagree), there are in fact two pretty solid factors:

1. Usage. Now I'm sure this will sound strange at first and it's certainly smogon-esque, but think about. If, hypothetically, a character takes up all 8 spots in the top 8, then most people would probably agree that that's not good on some level. It's maybe not even a strict argument for the power level of that character (it can be of course, but if the top 8 players in a region all play Ganon and all 8 keep taking the top spots, that certainly doesn't mean Ganon is broken), but it's just not good for the metagame of the cast as a whole since so many characters won't get developed at top level anymore and it potentially ties into the second point below as well. The thing is that these cut-off points really need to be determined in advance because otherwise you're prone to getting that player bias again where people pick up the broken character but then don't want to ban them again because... well, they're playing them and have invested time into them.
2. Community. Unlike the first point, this one should be fairly obvious. If there's no community, you can't play the game anymore. You can argue about mentality one way or another, but that's a fact. So if a significant amount of the community or a subcommunity quits and it can be linked to a specific character (because of the release time, the character becoming dominant in usage and/or results or because people flat out say that's their reason), then banning that character in order to maintain the community is probably a good idea as well.

Of course these aren't perfect solutions by any stretch of the imagination. However, what I'm getting at is that criteria should exist prior to issues actually coming up and that it should ideally be possible to reach a conclusion with as much actual data (e.g. results or attendance figures) as possible rather than relying on how individuals might feel on a given day. And this isn't just for Smash 4, if Smash 5 is released at some point in the future, there's a not insignificant chance that having criteria in place for banning will make handling that much less of a headache as well.

 

[Xephilon]

Might be a little off topic but anyone else getting annoyed by people throwing out that she has "frame 1 air dodges"?
Unlike most characters who have frame 2-3 airdodges, we DO have a frame 1-4 dodge but that activates Bat Within (we take half the damage) and, at some situations, we get punished for it and make the string even longer cause of it. Also, that our dodges end at frame 37-38 making it the 2nd worst dodge in the game doesn't help but like every other person that dislikes Bayo, they leave that part out.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Anyway, maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea not to ask "Should Bayonetta be banned?", but rather "When should we ban a character?"

I think this is a good way of putting it. Any character has the potential to be broken.

Speaking as somebody who didn't, hasn't, and likely never will pick up Bayonetta (Bowser is love. Bowser is life.), another factor I weigh a small amount in thinking about this is that it's unfair to dedicated Bayo mains to simply up and ban her from tournies because she is perceived as too good. Bayo mains that want to live off of Smash are effectively cut off from a major pay option solely because of their character, a character they have to pay extra money for, might I add.

I understand the reasoning of why some people want her banned - low risk, high reward gameplay, with weaknesses that, though exploitable, aren't perceived to be exploitable enough to take advantage of like one can take advantage of Bowser's landing lag; repeated high placements in tournies when she has only been out for a couple months, and new players coming out of nowhere suddenly being better than players they struggled against before. This isn't to say there aren't 'real' Bayo mains who work hard to master their technique with her. But there is valid evidence that these reasons are real and problematic to the community and competitive Smash 4 scene.

I am hesitant to say 'we should definitely ban Bayonetta' or 'we should keep Bayonetta.' Some players DO play to win; they pick top tiers because those characters are inherently better than others. But we choose our mains because that character best fits our playstyle. Nothing is ever quite right for me unless I am playing Bowser, and maybe that's the same for dedicated Bayo players. I dislike the rift Bayo is bringing to Smash, but I don't want to deny a group of players Bayo if she is 'their Bowser.'

 

[Greward]

For god's sake I never said in my twitter the ban was official.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

For god's sake I never said in my twitter the ban was official.

I never got to see it, but I did heard that it was official, guess it was wrong.

 

[AkiraGr]

For god's sake I never said in my twitter the ban was official.

https://twitter.com/GrewardSSB/status/717471252592590848

The witch has been banned.

From the Reddit post. Your deleted tweet was saying it was official. Anyway it doesn't matter, maybe you jumped the gun to early to say it or simply to create more chaos. I go with the second opinion.

 

[Piipp]

Whatever happened to adapting? I know adapting to Bayonetta is super hard considering her low risk, high reward play style. But anytime somebody complained about anything pre-bayo, all that a lot of the smash community would say is adapt. But now that there's something they have a hard time adapting to, they want to ban it? I'm not saying that everyone is like this nor do I think that banning Bayonetta is a good or bad move, because in all honesty I wouldn't really care if she was banned or not. My point is that just some people in our community are just hypocrites.

 

[Scribe]

I have the urge to throw in my $0.02, however, it's undeniable that I lack the credentials for a particularly educated opinion on the subject, so feel free to move along (I certainly would).

Anyway, maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea not to ask "Should Bayonetta be banned?", but rather "When should we ban a character?", a notion which I believe came up in Brawl as well (I might be misremembering) and never really went anywhere. There's the sirlinistic view of needing to have 8:2 MUs or whatever across the board which was brought up a few pages ago, but as was also said, that's kind of outdated by now since the whole scene has changed quite a bit and it's not easy to determine and agree on MU numbers in the first place. One significant advantage of actually establishing criteria for this process would be that personal bias should be largely removed.

In this context I'd like to bring up an FGC example, namely Blazblue character Kokonoe. She was perceived as broken and there was in fact a community poll about banning her. As you can see, about a 2/3 majority was in favor of the ban. From what I've been told, that ban didn't actually happen on a bigger scale (and she was patched eventually), but in hindsight (again, nothing more than anecdotal evidence here) the general consensus seems to be that it should've happened. So I guess it's maybe not too different from Brawl MK/ICs. There's another interesting point to take away from that poll though. Apparently, even though it wasn't the final result, for a long time there was an obvious correlation between maining Kokonoe and thinking whether she should be banned or not (click). In other words, this more or less supports what Kip Shades already mentioned, but it really goes both ways.

So maybe we can at least say that neither MUs nor polls are infallible methods of determining whether or not a character should be banned. So are there other options? And the answer is of course yes, I'm pretty sure some of them have even been brought up in this very thread. In my personal opinion (and I have no doubts that a lot of people will disagree), there are in fact two pretty solid factors:

1. Usage. Now I'm sure this will sound strange at first and it's certainly smogon-esque, but think about. If, hypothetically, a character takes up all 8 spots in the top 8, then most people would probably agree that that's not good on some level. It's maybe not even a strict argument for the power level of that character (it can be of course, but if the top 8 players in a region all play Ganon and all 8 keep taking the top spots, that certainly doesn't mean Ganon is broken), but it's just not good for the metagame of the cast as a whole since so many characters won't get developed at top level anymore and it potentially ties into the second point below as well. The thing is that these cut-off points really need to be determined in advance because otherwise you're prone to getting that player bias again where people pick up the broken character but then don't want to ban them again because... well, they're playing them and have invested time into them.
2. Community. Unlike the first point, this one should be fairly obvious. If there's no community, you can't play the game anymore. You can argue about mentality one way or another, but that's a fact. So if a significant amount of the community or a subcommunity quits and it can be linked to a specific character (because of the release time, the character becoming dominant in usage and/or results or because people flat out say that's their reason), then banning that character in order to maintain the community is probably a good idea as well.

Of course these aren't perfect solutions by any stretch of the imagination. However, what I'm getting at is that criteria should exist prior to issues actually coming up and that it should ideally be possible to reach a conclusion with as much actual data (e.g. results or attendance figures) as possible rather than relying on how individuals might feel on a given day. And this isn't just for Smash 4, if Smash 5 is released at some point in the future, there's a not insignificant chance that having criteria in place for banning will make handling that much less of a headache as well.

I'd say that the whole "top 8 players in a region all main Dorf" problem is why the community should refrain from using local or even regional tournaments to justify a ban, since there will always be regions that have a disproportionate number of top-notch low-tier mains. I'd say that if four or more top 8 spots are repeatedly taken by the same character at multiple majors over a period of time, and if people who use that character at that major placed higher on average than people who use any other character, then a ban is worth considering. No using theorycraft to call for a preemptive ban, no citing Xanadu or Nebs or Hitbox Arena or Mollywhop or whatever weekly you want to use (BTW with that latter one, I know the venue is bar called Molly's and that's where they got the name from, but the name for the tournament series is just straight-up a synonym for cockslap, and that's just beautiful), no bringing up oddshots of random jank. Just flat out results from majors.

Also worth noting is that Kokonoe was a console-exclusive character, which ArcSys usually doesn't bother to balance until either post-release patches or later revised editions of the game.

 

[Red Stache]

Whatever happened to adapting? I know adapting to Bayonetta is super hard considering her low risk, high reward play style. But anytime somebody complained about anything pre-bayo, all that a lot of the smash community would say is adapt. But now that there's something they have a hard time adapting to, they want to ban it? I'm not saying that everyone is like this nor do I think that banning Bayonetta is a good or bad move, because in all honesty I wouldn't really care if she was banned or not. My point is that just some people in our community are just hypocrites.

Sounds like ZeRo now that you mention that.

I remember he got upset on smashboards when others complained about Pre-Patch Shiek being unfair, and told us we were, lazy and ignorant, and that we should learn the Pre-Patch Sheik MU. (Which means: Adapt)

I also remember on Twitter, he basically told Shiek players after the nerf, to stop being positive and that Sheik was done.
So don't try to adapt to learning now to play nerfed Shiek because she is done.
(What I mean by positive, was that Sheik players were thinking up new ways to play with nerfed Sheik)

On the plus side, I remember he threw a fit when Pre-Patch Diddy got nerfed, even though Diddy became the meta at that point.

Bottom line is: We shouldn't put much stock on what ZeRo says.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I went into For Glory last night. I ran into Bayonetta. I died at 26% off the top. She may not yet be deserving of a ban, but that doesn't mean she isn't currently stupid. #Salt

Anyway, maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea not to ask "Should Bayonetta be banned?", but rather "When should we ban a character?", a notion which I believe came up in Brawl as well (I might be misremembering) and never really went anywhere. There's the sirlinistic view of needing to have 8:2 MUs or whatever across the board which was brought up a few pages ago, but as was also said, that's kind of outdated by now since the whole scene has changed quite a bit and it's not easy to determine and agree on MU numbers in the first place. One significant advantage of actually establishing criteria for this process would be that personal bias should be largely removed.

I think this is super important. The focus is so intensely on just Bayonetta that we forget about certain nuances of this discussion. It's too early to ban Bayonetta, but not enough of us are asking the question: what does it take for any character to be banned?

Just flat out results from majors.

No. This is not and cannot be the entirety of the criteria. We can ban any character for any reason, really. Seriously, consider this. Imagine you're a TO, and you (somehow) dig up intel that banning Wii Fit Trainer would double tournament attendance across the board, and the overall community would explode in growth; would you do it? I'm not suggesting anything about WFT's power as a character. Just imagine her as she is: low tier, non-threat, doesn't win even local events, etc. Would you ban her to gain access to a much larger and more active competitive community? Or would you stand up for WFT's right to exist as tournament attendance dwindles?

That is the X factor that people are trying to nail down. Banning of characters largely revolves around doing what's best for the competitive aspect. I'm not suggesting that Bayonetta is killing the game, but if it came out that she was (regardless of how beatable she is), what does it take to consider a ban? How far are you willing to go?

TLDR hard discussion is hard.

 

[SvartWolf]

The most annoying thing about this whole drama is that we brought this on ourselves. Or maybe not. I shouldn't include myself in that group because I never wanted her in the game in the first place. If people had voted for more first-party characters like, I don't know, WOLF, King K. Rool, Ridley, or Toad or whatever, we wouldn't have to deal with this.

I don't have any problem with the rest of your post, but i don't think this have anything to do with anything. One thing is Bayonetta as a VG character and the other is how her design in smash was done and how good/bad was implemented.
Believe me, I voted for Ridley (we will never falter) but I (along lots of people) am extremely happy that Bayonetta as a VG character made it into smash. But that isn't the problem here, its her design and implementation mostly.

Anyway, maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea not to ask "Should Bayonetta be banned?", but rather "When should we ban a character?", a notion which I believe came up in Brawl as well (I might be misremembering) and never really went anywhere. There's the sirlinistic view of needing to have 8:2 MUs or whatever across the board which was brought up a few pages ago, but as was also said, that's kind of outdated by now since the whole scene has changed quite a bit and it's not easy to determine and agree on MU numbers in the first place. One significant advantage of actually establishing criteria for this process would be that personal bias should be largely removed.

I think that the most likely answer is when a character is dominating a metagame with an iron grip so strong that simply is completely asphyxiated, to the point that just removing the character immediately breaths new life into the meta. (For example in melee, even if you ban fox it won't make the lower tiers suddenly start expanding the meta, so I don't think that fox is a problem, even when he is the indisputable best).

I really don't get the impression that bayonetta is there. it's true that she may potentially grow and be ultra optimized and yadda yadda, but until we aren't there, a preeventive ban is only going to rift the community apart. Plus, such a quick ban even if it's justified won't give the exact data of what is broken. so the chances that she gets a great fix like Diddy are lower.
We already have gotten good info, witch time at release was bonkers, and witch twist is being labbed and stuff but i don't think is enough. some people say that some lower tiers have a good MU against her which if true, could end being interesting. Plus while is true that we don't have a way to know if we are getting more patches, i do believe that if Nintendo is invested in Evo (I'm not 100% sure tough but it gave me that impression) I'm pretty sure that we may see a patch before evo, specially if this drama keeps escalating and it reaches Japan. Nintendo have things to win if Smash bros 4 is a full success at evo, considering is their main way to promote the concept of amiibos.

Right now my biggest fear with a quick ban is that since is that bayonetta does get nerfed in the future but just a minority of the community gives a damn to drop the ban.

Regarding the sheer fun factor, dunno, some people hate playing against sonic or rosalina, but i'm certain that most people (included) find he notion of banning rosa laughable.

PD: i do think that Bayo's Risk/Reward ratio is skewed and i would love a nerf, but don't think that a ban is the way to go. not now at least.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

The most annoying thing about this whole drama is that we brought this on ourselves. Or maybe not. I shouldn't include myself in that group because I never wanted her in the game in the first place. If people had voted for more first-party characters like, I don't know, WOLF, King K. Rool, Ridley, or Toad or whatever, we wouldn't have to deal with this.

This is a ridiculous thing to say. Bayonetta being in Smash Bros is awesome; they just royally screwed up with her implementation.

 

[SvartWolf]

Sounds like ZeRo now that you mention that.

I remember he got upset on smashboards when others complained about Pre-Patch Shiek being unfair, and told us we were, lazy and ignorant, and that we should learn the Pre-Patch Sheik MU. (Which means: Adapt)

I also remember on Twitter, he basically told Shiek players after the nerf, to stop being positive and that Sheik was done.
So don't try to adapt to learning now to play nerfed Shiek because she is done.
(What I mean by positive was that Sheik players were thinking up with new ways to play with nerfed Sheik)

On the plus side, I remember he threw a fit when Pre-Patch Diddy got nerfed, even though Diddy became the meta at that point.

Bottom line is: We shouldn't put much stock on what ZeRo says.

Just playing a little of devils advocate here and may not be reading right, so excuse me if i understood wrong (not being ironical) but you are implying that zero says that bayo should be banned?

It's true that he is anti bayo and have deemed her toxic and retweeted the spain "ban", but so far he never have said that bayo should be banned, and that he at least was going to adapt. (I know he sounded a little whiny but techincally is what he said in his video at least). Maybe i'm missing some tweet or something? I have seen lots of people talking zero like he called a ban.

on a lighter note "nobody expected the spanish banning position" is probably the best thing that have graced this situation.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

ZeRo has a video about his thoughts on Bayonetta.

 

[Scribe]

I don't have any problem with the rest of your post, but i don't think this have anything to do with anything. One thing is Bayonetta as a VG character and the other is how her design in smash was done and how good/bad was implemented.
Believe me, I voted for Ridley (we will never falter) but I (along lots of people) am extremely happy that Bayonetta as a VG character made it into smash. But that isn't the problem here, its her design and implementation mostly.



I think that the most likely answer is when a character is dominating a metagame with an iron grip so strong that simply is completely asphyxiated, to the point that just removing the character immediately breaths new life into the meta. (For example in melee, even if you ban fox it won't make the lower tiers suddenly start expanding the meta, so I don't think that fox is a problem, even when he is the indisputable best).

I really don't get the impression that bayonetta is there. it's true that she may potentially grow and be ultra optimized and yadda yadda, but until we aren't there, a preeventive ban is only going to rift the community apart. Plus, such a quick ban even if it's justified won't give the exact data of what is broken. so the chances that she gets a great fix like Diddy are lower.
We already have gotten good info, witch time at release was bonkers, and witch twist is being labbed and stuff but i don't think is enough. some people say that some lower tiers have a good MU against her which if true, could end being interesting. Plus while is true that we don't have a way to know if we are getting more patches, i do believe that if Nintendo is invested in Evo (I'm not 100% sure tough but it gave me that impression) I'm pretty sure that we may see a patch before evo, specially if this drama keeps escalating and it reaches Japan. Nintendo have things to win if Smash bros 4 is a full success at evo, considering is their main way to promote the concept of amiibos.

Right now my biggest fear with a quick ban is that since is that bayonetta does get nerfed in the future but just a minority of the community gives a damn to drop the ban.

Regarding the sheer fun factor, dunno, some people hate playing against sonic or rosalina, but i'm certain that most people (included) find he notion of banning rosa laughable.

PD: i do think that Bayo's Risk/Reward ratio is skewed and i would love a nerf, but don't think that a ban is the way to go. not now at least.

You put it a lot better than I could've. Preemptive bans on a character just because the community is worried about the character having a choke hold on the meta in the future is absolutely jumping the gun and will likely cause more harm than good in the end. I'd also note that even if Ninty isn't invested in EVO, Namco Bandai is (In fact, they're usually one of the biggest sponsors), and they had a huge part in the development of the game, and were specifically brought in to help with game balance.

 

[n8han11]

Going to repost from another thread:

Bayonetta shouldn't be banned. We didn't ban Diddy or Sheik despite their overwhelming results, so why are we being so quick to try and ban Bayonetta?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Scribe I edited my post with a response to you up above. I was curious to your thoughts on that.

 

[Red Stache]

you are implying that zero says that bayo should be banned?

No, I wasn't trying to imply that, but I understand.

I was just pointing out how he appears so hypocritical, like telling people to "adapt" at fighting Pre-Patch Sheik and don't complain about characters.

But with Bayonetta, not only dose he complain about a character, but he says this then:

"Playing against Bayonetta is toxic, because it creates an environment where people don't enjoy playing"
"Adapt, but why do that? When people are forced to adapt they often end up quitting."

Even though Pre-Patch Shiek did the same thing.
Plus, him saying people shouldn't have to adapt to Bayonetta is insulting, when he told us to adapt to Pre-Patch Shiek.

(And then there is Pre-Patch Diddy too. As he complained about the nerfs he got.)

Not saying ZeRo said to ban her, but with how he has acted about Bayonetta I would not be surprised if he did say or want to ban her.

 

[Pentao]

Pre-patch Diddy and Shiek weren't banned, but customs were. Maybe that's why people feel like they can get away with banning Bayo?

 

[King Of Bunnies]

This is glorious. I cant stop laughing!

GIT. GOOD. SCRUBS.

This is literally how I feel. If you need to ban an entire playable character, you just need to git gud, and it's not the character.

 

[NotLiquid]

Noticed this on Twitter. This was from Karisuma 6 in Japan around half a week ago where 9B's Bayonetta won the Grand Finals. That said, the first set is of real note here since Taiheita, a Lucas player, managed to make a strong bracket reset after losing the first round - with a mid-tier character no less. Amazing strings, good spacing and some fantastic DI in this set. Granted, 9B managed to win the second set, but this is impressive nonetheless. Despite the character having some dominating results there, Japan is also putting some great work against the character, this is the kind of stuff we need to see more.

 

[Greward]

https://twitter.com/GrewardSSB/status/717471252592590848

The witch has been banned.

From the Reddit post. Your deleted tweet was saying it was official. Anyway it doesn't matter, maybe you jumped the gun to early to say it or simply to create more chaos. I go with the second opinion.

The twit was something along the lines "hey aba we are banning bayonetta what's your opinion".

People just assumed it confirmed the ban I actually deconfirmed in the reddit thread.

 

[Scribe]

Scribe I edited my post with a response to you up above. I was curious to your thoughts on that.

I'd honestly disagree with that idea you put forth, and In the scenario you put forth, I wouldn't have banned WFT. If the character doesn't have a choke hold on the meta, and there are insufficient tournament results to support the idea, then such a ban wouldn't be warranted.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

So, random question: What type of stock format do major tournaments in Spain use?

Additionally, would Bayonetta be more difficult to deal with in a 2 stock, or 3 stock environment/meta?

Honestly, I think that it is far too early to be banning the character, though.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Noticed this on Twitter. This was from Karisuma 6 in Japan around half a week ago where 9B's Bayonetta won the Grand Finals. That said, the first set is of real note here since Taiheita, a Lucas player, managed to make a strong bracket reset after losing the first round - with a mid-tier character no less. Amazing strings, good spacing and some fantastic DI in this set. Granted, 9B managed to win the second set, but this is impressive nonetheless. Despite the character having some dominating results there, Japan is also putting some great work against the character, this is the kind of stuff we need to see more.

Excellent video, I think one of the most important part to beating Bayonetta is to remain grounded, use ground moves (jab, tilt, smashes), grab a lot, shield and dodge often, and most importantly, punish the special landing lag CAREFULLY.
Aerial approach is a nightmare against Bayonetta, but she struggles against grounded opponents since her frame data is lacking there.
It is kinda like playing Little Mac, I was able to 3 stock Bayo with this strategy. The Bayonetta is not a top player by any means, but at least I wasn't taken out quickly by noobs.

 

[Greward]

So, random question: What type of stock format do major tournaments in Spain use?

Additionally, would Bayonetta be more difficult to deal with in a 2 stock, or 3 stock environment/meta?

Honestly, I think that it is far too early to be banning the character, though.

2 stock 6 minutes
typical starters with dreamland/DH as counterpicks (lylat starter)

 

[TheRealSkid]

I, too, am going to drop my 2 cents.
I personally do not think Bayonetta is as problematic in high level smash. High level players have the knowledge, skill, and consistency to handle Bayonetta's tools in the best and most efficient way possible.
But, local entrants like me that have yet to win their first true tournament (I got 13th and 17th out of about 60 players in my first two tourneys, so I have an idea of what I am saying but I'm no expert) don't have the skills to effectively implement solutions as effectively as say iStudying, ESAM, or Aba or any other super-talented player can, will, or already have.
While I have a somewhat decent Bayo solution using my mewtwo, I recognize that I really can't handle Bayo as well as these people can.
Bayo's weaknesses require a sort of knowledge, prowess, and mental ability in the game that I currently lack, as far as I have gone. She has weaknesses, but they are invisible to the eye of a person like me with less knowledge at the game and the character.
To be clear, this is not a "git gud" or "adapt" statement. I'm saying that Bayo can only be fully tamed at the uppermost levels. That said, I think a ban is justified if it becomes clear that even the best cannot stop her. As of now, it doesn't look at it, but you never know.
I don't think any more changes are coming to the game. It's down to how she performs and if and how top players can continually defeat her.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

This is literally how I feel. If you need to ban an entire playable character, you just need to git gud, and it's not the character.

Right, so if Bayo causes massive drops in attendance, then obviously we should all just GIT GUD and ADAPT instead of, I don't know, sucking it up and just banning her?

This is the same thing that happened with MK in Brawl; we got complacent on bans and then by the time people actually thought to ban the character, it was already far too late to do so. Complacency is bad here, we should already know this. Better to have been proactive for nothing than grown complacent and then have a character grow very problematic.

To use a metaphor, playing Bayonetta is kind of like picking up the ball with your hands in soccer; it's obviously the easier way to play, but there's an undying stigma about it that makes it so you are frowned upon for doing it, even if doing it is a better strategical choice than actually playing by the rules (using the foot).

 

[King Of Bunnies]

Right, so if Bayo causes massive drops in attendance, then obviously we should all just GIT GUD and ADAPT instead of, I don't know, sucking it up and just banning her?

Yeah, basically. Bayo is not this mondo over powered character and is definitely not the MK of Sm4sh.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

To use a metaphor, playing Bayonetta is kind of like picking up the ball with your hands in soccer; it's obviously the easier way to play, but there's an undying stigma about it that makes it so you are frowned upon for doing it, even if doing it is a better strategical choice than actually playing by the rules (using the foot).

That metaphor is flawed, playing Soccer with with your hand is against the rules. Soccer is meant to be played with your feet, if you want to play Soccer with you hand, go play Basketball.
I posted a analogy before and I will repost it. Banning Bayonetta before she has any results is like "Oh he can use (not have) a gun. Let's arrest him even though he hasn't hurt anyone."

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

That metaphor is flawed, playing Soccer with with your hand is against the rules. Soccer is meant to be played with your feet, if you want to play Soccer with you hand, go play Basketball.
I posted a analogy before and I will repost it. Banning Bayonetta before she has any results is like "Oh he can use (not have) a gun. Let's arrest him even though he hasn't hurt anyone."

Banning Bayonetta before she has any results is like "Oh he can use (not have) a gun. Let's arrest him even though he hasn't hurt anyone."

She does have results, though;

Karisuma 6. Bayonetta wins.

Hirosuma 3. Bayonetta wins and another Bayonetta gets top3, having 3 bayonettas in top8.

Shulla-bra VI. Bayonetta wins.

Hokkaido Smash 9 Tournament. Two bayonettas in top8, by two players who never ever got top8 at a tournament before.

Sumabato 8. Called sumabayo in Japan, Bayonetta gets 1st and 2nd.

Sumabato 7. Bayonetta wins.

There has been 9 big japanese tournaments since release, 5 won by bayonetta, all of them with at least a Bayonetta in top8.
Yet she has no results. And this is merely two months in.

And don't give me any "But I mean U.S results" bull, because you specifically asked JUST for results, not results in a specific country.

 

[Red Stache]

To use a metaphor, playing Bayonetta is kind of like picking up the ball with your hands in soccer;

Probably shouldn't have used that metaphor.
As goalies have special rules that allow them to pick up the ball with their hands.

So basically like goalies that are given special rules, so too are certain characters in Smash Bros, due to different moves, play-styles, and the like.