Banning Bayonetta in Tournaments

[ZaneHitsurugi]

I like the arresting Bayonetta analogy.

Imagine Smash isn't a fighting game. Imagine it's a place, where characters are invited to relax and have fun. Sakurai invites all sorts of people, like Mario, and Link, and Sonic, and etc. Sakurai says, "I'm going to invite another person to Smash!". He decides to invite Mewtwo and Lucas, who left after Melee. This goes on in all the DLC. However, upon Bayonetta's arrival, Pit, Dark Pit, and Palutena are visibly upset that Bayonetta is here. After all, in her own game, she does kill angels. Bayonetta has no issues with Palutena and the Pits; they're different types of angels than the one she hunts. This anxiety with Bayonetta spreads throughout the characters. They really do not like her, and thus, they want her arrested, like they did with Meta Knight after he successfully kicked out everyone else and made them live on the streets. Note that she has done nothing warranting an arrest, as they cannot be arrested for actions made within their own game. But all the characters are very stubborn on arresting Bayonetta, because "we need to stop her before she kills Palutena and the Pits." Now, I don't know about you, but as of now we don't have any proof she has done anything warranting her arrest/banning.

 

[Xpwnage123]

Hum about the item part, do you mean that Rob/Diddy can drop their item during the combo to interrupt it ? And about Rosa is the Luma interrupt reliable ?

No you don't drop the item during the combo. It's more that you can just leave the banana/gyro on the ground and it interrupts the grounded ABK, her main approach option. I can tell you as someone who plays her, that this is pretty frustrating since they can more or less hang back behind their and force a less effective approach.

As for Luma, I'm not entirely sure how reliable the interrupt is, but it seems pretty effective to me. In general, I find it hard to remove Luma as Bayo, since all her strong knockback moves have lag. The bair is probably the best Luma removal option, but even that is pretty punishable.

Of course, what I'm saying is more or less based on personal experience. I consider myself pretty good, but a better Bayonetta player would probably have an easier time adjusting to the combo breakers I listed. Still, the Game and Watch one I mentioned is a huge counter to Bayonetta's approach and combos.

 

[Muster]

I like the arresting Bayonetta analogy.

Imagine Smash isn't a fighting game. Imagine it's a place, where characters are invited to relax and have fun. Sakurai invites all sorts of people, like Mario, and Link, and Sonic, and etc. Sakurai says, "I'm going to invite another person to Smash!". He decides to invite Mewtwo and Lucas, who left after Melee. This goes on in all the DLC. However, upon Bayonetta's arrival, Pit, Dark Pit, and Palutena are visibly upset that Bayonetta is here. After all, in her own game, she does kill angels. Bayonetta has no issues with Palutena and the Pits; they're different types of angels than the one she hunts. This anxiety with Bayonetta spreads throughout the characters. They really do not like her, and thus, they want her arrested, like they did with Meta Knight after he successfully kicked out everyone else and made them live on the streets. Note that she has done nothing warranting an arrest, as they cannot be arrested for actions made within their own game. But all the characters are very stubborn on arresting Bayonetta, because "we need to stop her before she kills Palutena and the Pits." Now, I don't know about you, but as of now we don't have any proof she has done anything warranting her arrest/banning.

While making scenarios is good fun, i don't think this particular one has enough parallels to the real thing to have an accurate comparison.
(also bayonetta totally kills pit and dark pit in her trailer.)

Wrong, it's because the character is so different and so impactful from what we've been playing for 1.5 years that she is forcing a meta shift as she redefines which characters are tournament viable and which aren't. Nobody likes meta shifts when the game has been out for so long. Also people like to complain, welcome to the internet.

Saying that nobody likes meta shifts so long after a game's release is a bit of a generalization isn't it? I for one am extremely glad that smash 4 is much different now than it was day one, and there are quite a few games out there that keep a consistent fanbase despite large changes to the game via patches or updated versions.

Also, hate for bayonetta is certainly a part of the reason that there are pushes to ban her, it's just not the only reason by any means.

 

[C0rvus]

This is such an irritating issue. On one hand, we have a character that is incredibly poorly designed, people don't have fun playing against her, she's potentially overcentralizing but there's a soft ban in the US so we really cannot be sure. Spain has banned her, many Japanese top players are allegedly in favor of a ban, plenty of people in general are as well. They have some legitimate points about community impact, balance, etc. But doing so would reduce their matchup experience and knowledge of counterplay. I don't see US majors banning her, so that's a relevant issue.

But, on the other hand, this is Smash. Bayonetta is in the game, she is very likely to be nerfed at some point. The community has dealt with strictly worse characters (Brawl Ice Climbers, pre-patch Diddy) and it's only a matter of time before a patch happens. If Bayonetta isn't played, Nintendo may not see what needs fixing. We would also benefit from the development of counterplay. She also isn't SO broken that she gives players like Pink Fresh the ability to win a major yet, but it's a clear increase in power level. "Anyone can pick her up for a couple days and win" is definitely an overstatement, but she's clearly easier than pre-patch Sheik.

Regardless of your stance on the character, there's no clear cut answer (I myself think she shouldn't be banned, but if she was I could care less, I think she's broken as hell). The problem I have right now is all the trolling and strawmen and people being assholes over this. The community is being more **** than usual. "Figureheads" like Omni being unclear and trolling people about the character, even that Twitter poll from Smashboards that is incredibly ambiguous and totally unhelpful. I don't know where the issue should go from here, but frankly I'm done thinking about it. Full stop. Here are my thoughts; I don't care what happens to Bayonetta, I'm just gonna play the game and try to improve and have fun.

I'm done.

 

[Zult]

Since the damn beginning I've said we're discussing the ban, and presenting the collective reasons why we believe she has to be banned.
I never confirmed that she was officially banned in all Spain. Still the votes are around 70-75% for it and 7% against so it's likely to happen.
People assumed she was already banned when i twitted abadango asking his opinion on bayonetta and **** blew up.

I feel like you have a personal agenda and are riding the majority of the public's opinion to achieve it. You're claimed to be the best player apparently. Then out of nowhere someone below you starts beating you with Bayonetta. You know Bayonetta is a hot topic right now, so you decide to have a poll (a super biased poll) to ask if she should be banned or not so you can go back to winning again. Your attitude online only makes me believe what I just said even more.

I don't think this dumb, yes dumb, poll should dictate if Bayonetta is legal or not. Sometimes (a lot of the times actually) the public's opinion and ideas on how to fix problems are flat out stupid and wrong. Any politician will tell you this. Having a community vote where the majority are scrubs and don't know any better and piggy back off the opinions of higher leveled players decide whether a character was legal or not is completely dumb. If the community had control over what was legal then any character higher than Pit on the tier list would be banned by now. But we don't let them decide for good reasons. We let a select few who actually know what's best for the community do.

There are so many different versions of bias going on in this poll that any person who took a stats class would laugh at it. Recency bias like someone else pointed early is just one of many of them. Also most people are going to be in favor of banning Bayonetta because most people don't even play Bayonetta in the first place. Another form of personal bias. So them voting in favor of the ban will hurt them in no way. So they'll have no reason to not ban her if they don't play her. If there was a poll to ban Sheik or Rosalina it would get the same results. Only difference is that they were here from the start of the game, so you had to deal with them from the get-go. I guarantee if Bayonetta was here from the start of release that anyone discussing a ban on her would be laughed at. May I remind you that pre-patch Sheik had zero bad match ups. In a game with 50+ characters, Sheik had zero bad match ups. That's insane. And she defined the meta way more than Bayonetta did.

Banning something because "it's not fun" is not even close to being a good reason. 99% of people don't like playing against Rosas. Even Rosas don't like fighting Rosas. Doesn't mean we should ban her. Banning a character should only be considered when the character is clearly better than the whole cast by a landslide and more tournaments are comprised of Bayonettas and Bayo ditto grand finals at every event. And even then, it's only being considered. Banning something because "it's not fun" is not a competitive mindset at all. I personally hate fighting Megamans because the pellets get annoying real fast. Doesn't mean I should go online and trying to persuade a ban on him.

I could go on and on. There's just so many things flat out stupid about this that I can't take anything you guys say seriously.

 

[Djent]

In the Competitive Impressions thread, Mr. Johan says:

Concerning Bayo's ban, I think a better way to look at is from a pure objective and literal standpoint.

Sakurai and co. stated that Bayonetta's a combo monster, but has slow startup on her moves to compensate for it, as a reflection of how she plays in her games.

Witch Twist is a Frame 4 move that converts into a killing string at 20% that can be performed from the ground. ABK and Fair 1 are Frame 7 moves that convert into a killing string at 10%.

Denotatively, Bayonetta is a "broken" character, in the sense that an aspect of her movekit run in direct contradiction to the guidelines that were laid out in her Direct video, and should be viewed as such due to it.

The problem with this argument is that it's neither objective nor literal, and may actually equivocate on the meaning of "broken." In the sense used here, "broken" seems to mean "circumventing intended limitations." Whether something is "broken" in this way has no direct relevance to whether or not we should ban it, because the question still remains as to whether it's actually too good to be allowed. Hell, you could say pre-1.1.5 Sheik was "broken" because she was unintentionally exceptional in every game state, yet she was not banworthy. But when people hear "broken," I get the impression that they're thinking of something more substantial. As a result, arguments like this one run the risk of establishing "brokenness" via lax criteria while everyone else thinks in terms of rigorous ones. That's kind of misleading, and I would ask that everyone be careful about using well-established (and heavily loaded) terms in this way.

 

[Planet God Venus]

Who the hell are you? Why did I get namedropped? Why am I notoriously biased?

Wondering the same thing.

 

[Sorichuudo]

I could go on and on. There's just so many things flat out stupid about this that I can't take anything you guys say seriously.

Thats ok, cause Just by reading the first paragraph of your text, i can tell that no one will take what you say seriously either.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Banning something because "it's not fun" is not even close to being a good reason. 99% of people don't like playing against Rosas. Even Rosas don't like fighting Rosas. Doesn't mean we should ban her. Banning a character should only be considered when the character is clearly better than the whole cast by a landslide and more tournaments are comprised of Bayonettas and Bayo ditto grand finals at every event. And even then, it's only being considered. Banning something because "it's not fun" is not a competitive mindset at all. I personally hate fighting Megamans because the pellets get annoying real fast. Doesn't mean I should go online and trying to persuade a ban on him.

There is a big difference between "I don't enjoy this matchup" and "I don't appreciate losing my entire stock for daring to even poke my opponent". It's really not hard to see why she is so unpopular in that regard. At least Corrin's stupid counter only kills you if you hit him/her hard with an attack of your own; you can survive a countered jab. I don't think Bayonetta would be so polarizing if she didn't have Witch Time. You so much as touch her, and your stock might be nuked. Sheik, Rosalina, Diddy, etc. are strong fighters, but players feel a sufficient degree of control over their destiny to not see them as inherently "unfair".

Again, I don't favor the ban, but your arguments miss the point.

 

[Douglas Jay Ganon]

I'm Spanish, and Spain hasn't ban her YET (but they're really close to).
I've heard of rumours about a patch at may, so let's wait for it.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I don't get why people assume a character is going to get better over time. Usually when a new character is introduced they'll either A) Get better because people will discover ways to realize their potential B) Get worse because people will figure out the best way to deal with their threats, or C) Stay pretty much the same. We have no way of knowing how a character will progress until time has passed.

However, what I don't understand is that a lot of Bayonetta haters claim that she is both very easy to learn, and is going to get a lot better. If she's easy, you would think people would realize her potential very quickly, unlike a character like Ryu for instance who is still possibly improving due to his high learning curve. Thus, I would think that Bayonetta isn't going to improve much but only time will tell.

Dedede is obviously one character who got "worse" as the metagame developed. Bayonetta could meet a similar fate once players finally figure out how to deal with her weaknesses.

 

[DunnoBro]

When she LANDS, Bair doesn't linger aside from small explosions for the gun.
Quite the double standards, you claim BY doesn't know what he is doing but Ally does?

I didn't mean bair lingered, i meant it stuffed smashes (which it does) so her punish is never more than a shield grab usually.

Also, it isn't a double standard lol

Ally is on record for saying he knew it would happen and black yoshi is on record for saying he DIDN'T know.

Face it, it was a demonstration of how crazy rage can be, being Bayonetta has nothing to do with it.

Rage can be crazy, but this is still incomparable to mario, mk, or even pre-patch brawler's piston punch because THERE IS NO RISK. You want to compare divekicks, landing aerials, and witch time to raw freefalls as far as risk go you're just being ignorant af.

 

[Scribe]

I feel like you have a personal agenda and are riding the majority of the public's opinion to achieve it. You're claimed to be the best player apparently. Then out of nowhere someone below you starts beating you with Bayonetta. You know Bayonetta is a hot topic right now, so you decide to have a poll (a super biased poll) to ask if she should be banned or not so you can go back to winning again. Your attitude online only makes me believe what I just said even more.

I don't think this dumb, yes dumb, poll should dictate if Bayonetta is legal or not. Sometimes (a lot of the times actually) the public's opinion and ideas on how to fix problems are flat out stupid and wrong. Any politician will tell you this. Having a community vote where the majority are scrubs and don't know any better and piggy back off the opinions of higher leveled players decide whether a character was legal or not is completely dumb. If the community had control over what was legal then any character higher than Pit on the tier list would be banned by now. But we don't let them decide for good reasons. We let a select few who actually know what's best for the community do.

There are so many different versions of bias going on in this poll that any person who took a stats class would laugh at it. Recency bias like someone else pointed early is just one of many of them. Also most people are going to be in favor of banning Bayonetta because most people don't even play Bayonetta in the first place. Another form of personal bias. So them voting in favor of the ban will hurt them in no way. So they'll have no reason to not ban her if they don't play her. If there was a poll to ban Sheik or Rosalina it would get the same results. Only difference is that they were here from the start of the game, so you had to deal with them from the get-go. I guarantee if Bayonetta was here from the start of release that anyone discussing a ban on her would be laughed at. May I remind you that pre-patch Sheik had zero bad match ups. In a game with 50+ characters, Sheik had zero bad match ups. That's insane. And she defined the meta way more than Bayonetta did.

Banning something because "it's not fun" is not even close to being a good reason. 99% of people don't like playing against Rosas. Even Rosas don't like fighting Rosas. Doesn't mean we should ban her. Banning a character should only be considered when the character is clearly better than the whole cast by a landslide and more tournaments are comprised of Bayonettas and Bayo ditto grand finals at every event. And even then, it's only being considered. Banning something because "it's not fun" is not a competitive mindset at all. I personally hate fighting Megamans because the pellets get annoying real fast. Doesn't mean I should go online and trying to persuade a ban on him.

I could go on and on. There's just so many things flat out stupid about this that I can't take anything you guys say seriously.

Absolutely this.

There are two important lessons that my FGC buddies have taught me that are definitely applicable here.

1. Top players shouldn't be the ones calling the shots in the community. They can't be trusted to put the community's best interests before their own or to not let their biases against certain characters or stages influence their decisions (I'd honestly say the only three exceptions in the FGC are LI Joe, Alex Jebailey (and even then, he's a TO first and a player second) and maybe Justin Wong). This is incredibly evident here, since we have one of the best players in Spain hopping on the ban Bayo badwagon just because he was salty over getting dethroned by a Bayo main.
2. Tying into that first idea, community votes are a poor way to make rulings. A competitive community needs a strong, centralized leadership from either the most prominent TO or a coalition of several top TOs. Obviously, they should take input from the community into account, but the community at large shouldn't be the ones making the decisions. (See: prominent FGC TOs like Mr. Wizard, the Cannon brothers, Jebailey, and LI Joe)

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Mr. Wizard

Uh huh.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

Oh jeez. I missed all the posts

Well, okay, first off, I want to clarify something for +Buddhahobo on my earlier posts about the Paper Mario example:
I don't enjoy playing has rush-down characters, so I wouldn't play as Paper Mario, except on occasion because i simply like the character.... because Paper Mario: TTYD.

I apologize for my unclear language.

I am against a ban. It is too soon. However, as i have stated in earlier posts, I believe Bayonetta is a horrible edition to Smash and a poor choice for the final DLC. She needs to be reworked. Given a mix of buffs and nerfs and the like.

I appreciate those in this thread who have respectfully voiced their sides of the argument. BOTH SIDES. Thank you for educating me on the Bayonetta MU, the SM4SH competive scene, and other fighting games and the adoptive styles they give to Smash.

I think 1.1.6. will be a thing, because if the devs simply ignore the mainstream voice against Bayo, it will simply be bad for the future of smash (like SMA5H or something)

Again, thank you to TheBuzzSaw, Buddhahobo, Rawkstar, Kip Shades, Greward, and many others (sorry but I can't find all them and other people are posting!)

You have helped me to both HAVE FUN and BE BETTER IN COMPETITIVE

 

[Scribe]

Uh huh.

We shouldn't be holding EVO 2008 against him. If anything, that's entirely on us. First of all, that was 8 years ago, and Mr. Wizard has since been much better about listening to the community on rulings (he straight up said that he would take the community's input into account on Miis). Second of all, the decision to enable items was an attempt to test the Smash community to see whether it had strong enough leadership that the community at large would refuse to go if they didn't change the ruling, or if it was adrift at sea and valued the money involved more than the community's principles. It's worth noting that if he decided to do, say, single match rounds or no time limit for Street Fighter or Guilty Gear, people would have been absolutely livid, and you likely would have seen another prominent TO organizing a major on the same weekend as EVO just to prove a point.

In other words, we failed.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

We shouldn't be holding EVO 2008 against him. If anything, that's entirely on us. First of all, that was 8 years ago, and Mr. Wizard has since been much better about listening to the community on rulings (he straight up said that he would take the community's input into account on Miis). Second of all, the decision to enable items was an attempt to test the Smash community to see whether it had strong enough leadership that the community at large would refuse to go if they didn't change the ruling, or if it was adrift at sea and valued the money involved more than the community's principles. It's worth noting that if he decided to do, say, single match rounds or no time limit for Street Fighter or Guilty Gear, people would have been absolutely livid, and you likely would have seen another prominent TO organizing a major on the same weekend as EVO just to prove a point.

In other words, we failed.

The video was pretty funny though. Items in a tournament? I thought that had never been a thing!

 

[PajamaJon]

When she is winning every local, regional, major, and super major then we can consider her being banned. As for now she is just OP and deserves nerfs. If we ban her now we as well ban ICs in Brawl and Melee.

 

[blackghost]

The source of the Spanish ban is what bothers me. a top player got beat by a character. there is no match fotage that i know of. if we saw the match maybe we'd understand why he hates the character so much. but if i watch the match and he got hit with heel slide and dABK repeatably wouldn't take him seriously at all.
the average bayonetta players are getting most of thier early kills of landing a dABK on an oponent who is also in the air. once you make it your mission to not block dABK with your face she starts having to work.
its still laughable that a character who could be objectively worse than current shiek by her matchup slate and frame data is being banned anywhere. if she had been in the game from the start this would never be considered.

 

[Muster]

The source of the Spanish ban is what bothers me. a top player got beat by a character. there is no match fotage that i know of. if we saw the match maybe we'd understand why he hates the character so much. but if i watch the match and he got hit with heel slide and dABK repeatably wouldn't take him seriously at all.
the average bayonetta players are getting most of thier early kills of landing a dABK on an oponent who is also in the air. once you make it your mission to not block dABK with your face she starts having to work.
its still laughable that a character who could be objectively worse than current shiek by her matchup slate and frame data is being banned anywhere. if she had been in the game from the start this would never be considered.

The (not actually) last match of the tournament was linked somewhere on reddit, give me a little bit and i'll find it.

edit: I didn't find an oddshot, but the match in question is 8:22 on this stream
https://www.twitch.tv/smashbrosspain/v/58274868

It wasn't actually the last match but it was one of the fastest games of finals.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I would seriously be bothered if japan actually supports the ban on Bayonetta, because:
A) They generally have a strong competitive mentality, pushing disadvantaged matchups or picking the top character themselves. They innovate, train and adapt (either their characters or get driven by the meta).
And the most important
B) They were the reason Brawl's Meta Knight ran amok. They refused to ban him and even told the occidental communities they would be less likely to travel again if they were to, so the ban was overall "lifted" (with the disclosure of the Unity Ruleset). If they actually are part of the "initial" banning regions, it would strike me as ironic as hell.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

The (not actually) last match of the tournament was linked somewhere on reddit, give me a little bit and i'll find it.

edit: I didn't find an oddshot, but the match in question is 8:22 on this stream
https://www.twitch.tv/smashbrosspain/v/58274868

It wasn't actually the last match but it was one of the fastest games of finals.

I can't get the video to play!!! Help?

 

[Flux0r]

Can we talk about this?
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4dn6p3/i_was_seriously_bullied_for_playing_bayonetta_at/

When someone is getting "actually" bullied for enjoying something as innocent as a video game, that's where things are getting out of hand. This whole situation is becoming more "toxic" than herself.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Can we talk about this?
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4dn6p3/i_was_seriously_bullied_for_playing_bayonetta_at/

When someone is getting "actually" bullied for enjoying something as innocent as a video game, that's where things are getting out of hand. This whole situation is becoming more "toxic" than herself.

TO needs to step in and lay down the law. This shouldn't be happening no matter what.

Though, I feel like that same attitude is being demonstrated by people in this thread. Spain is deciding to ban a character, and rather than respectfully disagree, people are opting for insults and bully tactics to swing the vote the other way.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

Can we talk about this?
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4dn6p3/i_was_seriously_bullied_for_playing_bayonetta_at/

When someone is getting "actually" bullied for enjoying something as innocent as a video game, that's where things are getting out of hand. This whole situation is becoming more "toxic" than herself.

I agree. If you play Bayonetta, fine. Great, even, because i have a hard time playing that "type" of character and i'm excited to see the playerbase evolve as new characters are introduced. I'm primarily Shulk/Mario, but I've added Corrin to my roster. If people booed me for countering a smash and KOing my opponent at low %, then I would feel offended as well.*

I simply see Bayonetta, not the players, skewed and unfair in certain cases.

But I WILL NOT say that someone is "bad" because they play Bayonetta. Their results may have increased in a short time, which shows Bayonetta as being skewed imo, but perhaps it was because their old main simply wasn't doing well for them and they just have a greater ability with Bayonetta-ish characters. (are there other characters like her, btw?)

Sorry to see this happen.

*Of course, I would welcome a REASONABLE nerf if it meant balancing gameplay and improving overall attitude towards the game and players.

EDIT: I forgot that Corrin already got a nerf. Slightlly higher risk, and slightly lower reward. Still best counter, imo.

 

[Muster]

I can't get the video to play!!! Help?

I'm not sure what you should do if a twitch archive won't play other than wait for them to upload the sets to youtube, sorry.
The match that at 8:22 is just a 30ish second match where rydle's bayonetta gets 2 0-deaths on Greward's olimar, which reset the bracket, and the rest would be Rydle winning the next set and the tournament, i assume.

Can we talk about this?
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4dn6p3/i_was_seriously_bullied_for_playing_bayonetta_at/

When someone is getting "actually" bullied for enjoying something as innocent as a video game, that's where things are getting out of hand. This whole situation is becoming more "toxic" than herself.

It's inane how such a stigma can be attached to playing a character. This does nothing but make our community seem more childish than before.

 

[Captain Farukon]

I know everyone is gonna disagree but I believe ALL 3 of the latest DLC characters () should be banned, they are honestly toxic, hard to deal with, and stupid...

Finally someone with common sense, thank you for posting your opinion im glad to see this

???????????
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faXnOd-RC7s
How is it Bayonetta's problem?
Using Witch Twist gives a lot of landing lag, 19F+.
Keep in mind, Smash attacks comes out at around 13~22F (DDD 42F xP)

of course you have no idea how broken she is, you need to play against someone who really knows how to use her to see that
she ll wreck any character you choose even ZSS and Sheik like nobody else, she has no real weakness

 

[Marcbri]

I can't get the video to play!!! Help?

You can watch the grand finals here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWRb0-QgQ_c

People going against Bayo players is indeed an issue (has also happened to sonic and rosalina players among others) and while some jokes are fine there's a point where TOs and community alike should stop the offenders because they act sometimes like these players deserve to be hated or something.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I didn't mean bair lingered, i meant it stuffed smashes (which it does) so her punish is never more than a shield grab usually.

I have said when she LANDS, she can't use any moves at all then.

Are you sure Ally knew it was gonna happen? He is known for trolling.
Let's say Ally didn't know what he was doing, and BY does, does that fix things? Does it make Mario broken?
It was purely how crazy multi hit moves are, tacking it on Bayonetta it just biased.
Even RosaLuma do this kind of things, further more, this isn't something a patch to Bayonetta can fix, putting the blame on her and not rage fixs nothing.

 

[Scribe]

The (not actually) last match of the tournament was linked somewhere on reddit, give me a little bit and i'll find it.

edit: I didn't find an oddshot, but the match in question is 8:22 on this stream
https://www.twitch.tv/smashbrosspain/v/58274868

It wasn't actually the last match but it was one of the fastest games of finals.

I'm watching this, and the first match.
He ran right into it.

He ran right into it.

And then he does it again on the next stock. How can you screw up this bad without deliberately trying?

The second match, he switched to Mega Man and was okay in the neutral, but in a lot of ways, he seemed to be mashing buttons with no rhyme or reason. He just spammed his lemons instead of properly timing them, for instance.

Third match starts off bad. Switches to Ike, and he just threw out an Aether in neutral. Why would you throw out an Aether in neutral? What in the name of whatever higher power or lack thereof you believe in was he trying to accomplish with that? He brings it back for the next stock, but even then, it seems less like his opponent is cheesing him out with flashy instant-win cutscene combos and more like he was genuinely outplayed. He kept falling for the same combo starters though, and repeatedly failed to learn from his mistakes.

This guy is trying to push for a ban because he's salty about being dethroned, but you know what? If that's how he's going to react; if his immediate response to being outplayed is to push for his opponent's main to be banned rather than to try to improve his play, then you know what? He deserved to be dethroned. That mentality of letting the top players be the ones to call the shots on matters of what should or shouldn't be allowed in tournaments a terrible way to run a community, and the fact that we as a community are willing to uphold that mentality is one of the reason many parts of the FGC have trouble taking the Smash community seriously.

 

[Captain Farukon]

Can we talk about this?
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4dn6p3/i_was_seriously_bullied_for_playing_bayonetta_at/

When someone is getting "actually" bullied for enjoying something as innocent as a video game, that's where things are getting out of hand. This whole situation is becoming more "toxic" than herself.

hahaha this ´s good, thats what happens when you pick such an unfair and broken character, the same thing happens in my country when someone picks Rugal in any KOF game he is available , in fact if you even dare to choose him you get kicked out and quite possible beaten, there is nothing innocent in a competitive fighting game, you need to show your skills not like this , the coward´s way

 

[Deleted member 269706]

I would seriously be bothered if japan actually supports the ban on Bayonetta, because:
A) They generally have a strong competitive mentality, pushing disadvantaged matchups or picking the top character themselves. They innovate, train and adapt (either their characters or get driven by the meta).
And the most important
B) They were the reason Brawl's Meta Knight ran amok. They refused to ban him and even told the occidental communities they would be less likely to travel again if they were to, so the ban was overall "lifted" (with the disclosure of the Unity Ruleset). If they actually are part of the "initial" banning regions, it would strike me as ironic as hell.

But if Japan is seriously considering it, maybe that means there is actually a problem. If they were okay with Meta Knight but they support a ban on Bayo, doesnt that tell you something?

 

[SoccerStar9001]

hahaha this ´s good, thats what happens when you pick such an unfair and broken character, the same thing happens in my country when someone picks Rugal in any KOF game he is available , in fact if you even dare to choose him you get kicked out and quite possible beaten, there is nothing innocent in a competitive fighting game, you need to show your skills not like this , the coward´s way

Are you serious? So we should bully people who plays their favourite characters? You are just a douche.

 

[Ghidorah14]

hahaha this ´s good, thats what happens when you pick such an unfair and broken character, the same thing happens in my country when someone picks Rugal in any KOF game he is available , in fact if you even dare to choose him you get kicked out and quite possible beaten, there is nothing innocent in a competitive fighting game, you need to show your skills not like this , the coward´s way

So are you ever going to contribute anything to these topics besides your salty scrub tears, or should I just skip every one of your posts from now on?

Leave it to the falcon players to be some o the loudest advocates for bayo being broken. I guess you got your dash attacks witch timed one-too many times or something...

 

[Razmord]

I feel like you have a personal agenda and are riding the majority of the public's opinion to achieve it. You're claimed to be the best player apparently. Then out of nowhere someone below you starts beating you with Bayonetta. You know Bayonetta is a hot topic right now, so you decide to have a poll (a super biased poll) to ask if she should be banned or not so you can go back to winning again. Your attitude online only makes me believe what I just said even more.

I understand some people may think this is what is happening, but the thing is, the first spanish top player to say Bayonetta is ban material after that grand finals wasn't Greward, but Rydle himself. He said while being interviewed on stream that Bayo is really above the rest of the cast and that he was okay with a ban. Maybe Greward has been really vocal about it, but most top spanish player has supported the ban. The poll itself wasn't made by him either, and there is going to be more discussion about it besides the poll, because is a big decision to make.

Also most people are going to be in favor of banning Bayonetta because most people don't even play Bayonetta in the first place. Another form of personal bias. So them voting in favor of the ban will hurt them in no way. So they'll have no reason to not ban her if they don't play her. If there was a poll to ban Sheik or Rosalina it would get the same results

If we made a poll to ban other characters nothing would happen, maybe some salty people would say yes but bans on other characters have always been discussed hypotheticaly and never has the spanish community agreed so massively on anything.

Banning something because "it's not fun" is not a competitive mindset at all.

A lot of people play competitive smash because they think is fun and for no other reason, just as a lot of people play Magic the gathering competitive formats because they find fun playing it. Wizards has banned decks because they killed the fun of the game by its lack of interaction or by not following the standards of the format (like when they banned Amulet Bloom because it's potential to kill on turn 1, it wasn't a big problem metagame wise, but it killed the fun by not letting player 2 interact in a non-trivial number of games). While fun isn't the only reason why the ban is happening, it is something that matters to the spanish community. In a community pushing for an e-Sports enviroment that focuses on money and popularity maybe fun is something that doesn't belongs in a ban discussion, but for a community that sees smash as what it is, just a game, fun is something we simply cannot forget.

 

[Red Stache]

I'm watching this, and the first match.
He ran right into it.

He ran right into it.

And then he does it again on the next stock. How can you screw up this bad without deliberately trying?

The second match, he switched to Mega Man and was okay in the neutral, but in a lot of ways, he seemed to be mashing buttons with no rhyme or reason. He just spammed his lemons instead of properly timing them, for instance.

Third match starts off bad. Switches to Ike, and he just threw out an Aether in neutral. Why would you throw out an Aether in neutral? What in the name of whatever higher power or lack thereof you believe in was he trying to accomplish with that? He brings it back for the next stock, but even then, it seems less like his opponent is cheesing him out with flashy instant-win cutscene combos and more like he was genuinely outplayed. He kept falling for the same combo starters though, and repeatedly failed to learn from his mistakes.

This guy is trying to push for a ban because he's salty about being dethroned, but you know what? If that's how he's going to react; if his immediate response to being outplayed is to push for his opponent's main to be banned rather than to try to improve his play, then you know what? He deserved to be dethroned. That mentality of letting the top players be the ones to call the shots on matters of what should or shouldn't be allowed in tournaments a terrible way to run a community, and the fact that we as a community are willing to uphold that mentality is one of the reason many parts of the FGC have trouble taking the Smash community seriously.

I was just about to say the same thing after watching that.

That match when he used Alph was terrible. Was the man even trying?
He might as well had a sign on him that said, "Please KO me."

Same thing with Mega Man, he appeared to be firing without rhyme or reason.
At least with Mega Man, he appeared to be doing better.

Then he just uses Ike for the third match, and he just does things that you shouldn't do as Ike in general.
I agree, he did not learn from any of his mistakes.

 

[Captain Farukon]

Are you serious? So we should bully people who plays their favourite characters? You are just a douche.

me ? im not the smash community moron, this is what happens in places where skill is the most valued thing over winning using cheap as hell characters
If you wanna play your favorite characters which happens to be broken do it online or with your friends where nobody cares but if you dare to step into a tournament, local, national or international play like a man with REAL skills

So are you ever going to contribute anything to these topics besides your salty scrub tears, or should I just skip every one of your posts from now on?

Leave it to the falcon players to be some o the loudest advocates for bayo being broken. I guess you got your dash attacks witch timed one-too many times or something...

hahahaha XD u mad kiddo? mmmmm delicious salt for my chips!!! thanks dude too bad you lack any real skill that you need to purchase them for 5.99

 

[SoccerStar9001]

me ? im not the smash community moron, this is what happens in places where skill is the most valued thing over winning using cheap as hell characters
If you wanna play your favorite characters which happens to be broken do it online or with your friends where nobody cares but if you dare to step into a tournament, local, national or international play like a man with REAL skills

REAL SKILLS!!!!! THE SKILL TO BULLY AND WHINE!!!!!
lol, I am done with you.

 

[Ghidorah14]

me ? im not the smash community moron, this is what happens in places where skill is the most valued thing over winning using cheap as hell characters
If you wanna play your favorite characters which happens to be broken do it online or with your friends where nobody cares but if you dare to step into a tournament, local, national or international play like a man with REAL skills

Yeah, real skills, like dash grab-upair!

Now I know without a doubt you're a scrub.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw

Take a good long read on the concept of "playing to win."

 

[Muster]

But if Japan is seriously considering it, maybe that means there is actually a problem. If they were okay with Meta Knight but they support a ban on Bayo, doesnt that tell you something?

We don't know for sure what the consensus is in japan. For example, That everyone over here is advocating bayo's ban because of influential members of the community saying so.

There's also the fact that the japanese scene was much different 6-8 years ago than it was today, old people leave new people join etc, drawing the conclusion that bayonetta is worse because of the reaction of largely new scene is pretty thoughtless.

hahahaha XD u mad kiddo? mmmmm delicious salt for my chips!!! thanks dude too bad you lack any real skill that you need to purchase them for 5.99

me ? im not the smash community moron, this is what happens in places where skill is the most valued thing over winning using cheap as hell characters
If you wanna play your favorite characters which happens to be broken do it online or with your friends where nobody cares but if you dare to step into a tournament, local, national or international play like a man with REAL skills

this is bait