Social Banjo-Kazooie Social Thread - Project Dream Come True!

[Violante]

This is just a generic witch. Do not fall in with the Steve trolls into believing every tiny detail. I'm going to perform a hard read here and call out that those trolls will use this Witch to act like Banjobros to make us look bad. Never stopped them from claiming the "dig" tweet from Xbox game pass was a hard confirm for Steve.

I've been this way since 2013 when we thought we were getting a fourth Banjo game for Kinect. The bread crumb trail is a life sentence, my friend.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Regardless what happens, there is still the Blast Corps and JFG data in the carts. Still inert, still sleeping, still not deleted.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Well at that point it depends on what you’re looking for Smash to be. When talking about what future inclusions we want to see in a product that is to be sold to us, it’s not unreasonable to argue “the creator’s personal vision and biases are not good enough reason for me as a consumer to accept being sold things I would not prefer”. Zack Snyder may have had a very specific vision of what he wanted for Man Of Steel and BvS, but those were visions I did not care for, and did not want to take part in.

(no I am not comparing one of my favorite games of all time and one of my most respected game directors to Hack Snyder and his DC atrocities, I’m just making a point)

Yeah, that would have weight if there were more consumers who disagreed with the vision enough not to buy the game. And so far, Sakurai's vision has proved plenty effective enough to sell millions upon millions of copies. There's a much bigger difference in the quality of something causing issues and the artistic choices making a difference. Smash isn't really going to drop in quality just because they choose certain characters over others. The fan base might change some as people either agree with the vision or not, but I just don't realistically see any point in which Sakurai's character additions are going to be a real hindrance to the games' sales. Especially when there's enough listening to the community to please a lot of people at this point.

 

[SKX31]

Also, while I think World of Light was too long, I do think it gets more interesting in the latter half of the actual campaign when more unique stuff is thrown at you and the fights require a little more thinking to get through. I almost never used Lip's Stick in my playing of the game though, and I've actually seen a decent amount of diversity with regards to how people approach Spirits. I think people might be a little too harsh on the mode overall though. I know it doesn't appeal to everyone, but I quite enjoyed some parts of it and it did at least give us back a campaign of some substance.

Yeah, now I'm going to speak as someone who's 100 %ed WoL and returns frequently to the Spirit Board (having assembled almost all OP Spirit combos): There is a lot of diversity amongst Spirits surprisingly, it's just that the diversity comes from at least, if not more than, 10-15 different borken* Spirit combos. From insane damage dealt to stuff like taking 5 damage from two Legend-class final smashes. And once you learn that the resource system meant to limit you is also broken** the sky's the limit. That's said, by a certain point you should have stuff like anti-Pauline and anti-Dr. Wily setups. And I personally loathe Spirits that cover the entire stage in something (Lava, for example), since it either forces your hand or breaks the battle the other way (Madama Butterfly says "Lol nope" to Poison floors).

Honestly, the best thing about it is the customizability, which allows for some really difficult - but awesome - combos. Upgraded Rodin (Increased attack power when you're at 80 %+ damage for a short time) combined with three trade off spirits (each t-o spirit adds 30 % to your damage, so you start at 90 %) is a great example of difficult but awesome.

Well at that point it depends on what you’re looking for Smash to be. When talking about what future inclusions we want to see in a product that is to be sold to us, it’s not unreasonable to argue “the creator’s personal vision and biases are not good enough reason for me as a consumer to accept being sold things I would not prefer”. Zack Snyder may have had a very specific vision of what he wanted for Man Of Steel and BvS, but those were visions I did not care for, and did not want to take part in.

(no I am not comparing one of my favorite games of all time and one of my most respected game directors to Hack Snyder and his DC atrocities, I’m just making a point)

The biggest obstacle I see is that "us" means at least 5 million+ buyers (every Smash game has those numbers). That makes the whole balancing act and "giving it to the fans" a massive tightrope walk almost by definition, since your Average Joe / Jane (they could count as fans if they buy Smash games in succession, I'd argue) doesn't visit here nor watch professional Smash tournaments. And as a general rule pro players are not interested in the FFAs with items that Average Joes / Janes heavily lean towards.

Regardless what happens, there is still the Blast Corps and JFG data in the carts. Still inert, still sleeping, still not deleted.

The reason I personally am very wary of the Rare Spirits is because Devil's Third is also in the carts. I'd not lean on it as primary evidence since if B-K gets in due to the spirits then Nexon gets one of the DLC slots as well. I'm pretty sure I haven't seen anyone predict a Nexon-owned character in Ultimate at all.

(*misspelling intentional, referencing Superman getting drunk on a neurotoxin meant for Batman. Love that moment)
(**You can literally recoup huge amounts of SP - even turn a profit on 3 star Spirits - by dismissing the Spirit and then selling the core by going into the Inventory section under Collection. You can effectively sell a Spirit twice, which is nuts. The game even tells you and automatically prioritizes which cores are not needed for other Spirits!)

 

[GrungeMan]

To be clear, the "deflection" of Ultimate being this and that is to specifically call out people who speak as if Sakurai has no respect for the fans or hasn't done a great many things for fans in the game. That's clearly not the case as you've mentioned as well. I agree that Smash 4 went to heavily in a non-fan oriented approach, but that's a criticism of THAT game and THAT time period, not the current one. I want fans to admit that Sakurai has made strides in making the series better and listening to fans all around. Again, you're free to disagree with how certain decisions were made and ideas implemented, but not so much on the core idea of Sakurai "not listening to the fans." You're right, it doesn't promote discussion, but it's also not supposed to. It's my attempt to stop some of the worse whining and constant demand that Sakurai exclusively capitulate to fan demand. It's gotten to the point where every character that isn't fan requested now gets put through the ringer and criticized by a certain group of people. I'd argue that adds even less to discussion at the end of the day and I think there's a decent amount of people in the community who are beginning to get increasingly fed up with those reactions.

I would say Ultimate is my favorite iteration and before Ultimate it was Smash 4, so I'm more than happy to admit the man clearly loves and caters to his fans well. Sakurai in my opinion just makes this game more and more amazing. Although, that doesn't necessarily preclude there being a certain irony to his progress and growth as a director. That is, one of his greatest strengths is caring about delivering what fans want, but then some of the more longstanding issues players have could be explained by certain complaints going largely ignored by Sakurai (or dismissed).

For example, we both disagree with regard to Sakurai's logic regarding re-tooling characters. This is simply anecdotal to my experiences, but as TheHeartbreakKid said in his well thought out list, most (if not all) the people I have met playing smash want characters to be MORE unique and NOT stay the same for the sake of avoiding alienation. I just can't ever remember in 18 years meeting a Ganondorf main that said "hoo boy, I'm so glad Ganandorf is still a Falcon clone."

Ganondorf and Sonic were late development characters with the former getting in as a clone and the latter simply having an uninspiring moveset. Fair enough. So when Brawl came along and there was sufficient development time Ganondorf should have been changed. Same with Sonic in Smash 4. Especially because a core part of developing a character is trying to have their moveset honor in some way their appearences in their game. Idk... I love Sakurai, but that's one bit of logic from him I can't grasp. It's just one example, so Sakurai still obviously listens to his fans given the immense wealth of things he provides us.

Also, like another poster said it's like a perception issue. Some players are getting increasingly more fed up with others lobbying what they believe are baseless complaints and then there are players with legitimate grievances being increasingly fed up with being told the game is perfect and to simply shut up.

Finally, if anyone just straight up tries seriously to put down a character or harass others for a characters inclusion because they're salty over their requested characters exclusion, then they're being a dunce.

I welcome Chrom. He was highly requested. I also would welcome The Black Knight as an Ike echo because he also trained with Ike's father and would therefore bear similarity with Ike. Also, FE should have a villain in my opinion.

I actually mostly agree with you on everything, but another point I did take issue with was Sakurai choosing to tell a narrative of gaming history through the perspective of Japanese gaming and if he wants to ignore Western gaming then that's fine. For me, that's fine IF Sakurai is clear in his intent because that would help assauge frustrations and broken hearts when a game director flat out says smash is transitioning into celebrating gaming history and then we get a lot of RPG characters. That's legitimately misleading. Just like smash fans have to he more clearer in their grievances, the smash team needs to be clear in its motivations.

Which has made me realize that I agree it's maybe less a design problem (anime/swordfighter) and more a genre problem (rpg) as Llort A. Ton said.

I hope we don't (we likely won't, because I do have faith in Sakurai), but we could very well get 3-4 JRPG protagonists with blades in the fighter pass. That's cause for legitimate discussion about whether Sakurai is really celebrating proper gaming history. Especially if we throw in FE and Pokemon, which while massively popular needed to be better handled with regard to character selections.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

The reason I personally am very wary of the Rare Spirits is because Devil's Third is also in the carts. I'd not lean on it as primary evidence since if B-K gets in due to the spirits then Nexon gets one of the DLC slots as well. I'm pretty sure I haven't seen anyone predict a Nexon-owned character in Ultimate at all.

(*misspelling intentional, referencing Superman getting drunk on a neurotoxin meant for Batman. Love that moment)
(**You can literally recoup huge amounts of SP - even turn a profit on 3 star Spirits - by dismissing the Spirit and then selling the core by going into the Inventory section under Collection. You can effectively sell a Spirit twice, which is nuts. The game even tells you and automatically prioritizes which cores are not needed for other Spirits!)

To be fair, Itagaki's blacklisted from the industry anyway, so I don't think they'd want to reopen old wounds.

If the Rare spirits data is a mistake, it's a special kind of mistake to assume Nintendo had negotiated with Microsoft for them, hearing they actually didn't, then sweeping everything under the rug and hoping no one found out.

Especially if we throw in FE and Pokemon, which while massively popular needed to be better handled with regard to character selections.

With those two, the bottom line is clearly going for the most recent entries of both (except when Gen 1 is involved, anyway), so I don't think fans can do anything to encourage rectifying that. Mainly because both have huge amounts of characters to pick from, and all...

 

[GrungeMan]

Doy, it took me until now to notice that the cauldron has eyes, too.

I'm accepting it's just a generic witch, but the cauldron having eyes is just too hilarious.

 

[Dinoman96]

I actually asked about those Rare spirits on Resetera and this is the gist of it:

https://www.resetera.com/threads/su...ride-is-still-on.91979/page-270#post-19857616

Nintendo owned the trademark for Star Twins, and they still do. That means they have the legal right to use the name in marketing. That's a huge difference, and not the same as owning the copyright, which is ostensibly the property in and of itself. That, like every other Rare created property, was kept by them in the transition to Microsoft.

Star Twins was a name that Nintendo had mandated when they published the game in Japan, so the trademark being theirs makes sense. Presumably the reason it was never applied by Microsoft was they either never intended to keep using that name, or it's just because it's a super low priority franchise.

One thing to remember is that Rare was never an entirely owned subsidiary. Nintendo really only owned 49% of the company, so to a majority extent, most of the original creations Rare put out were in large part owned by themselves.

They wouldn't have retained trademarks for anything except Star Twins and Blast Dozer given that those were the titles that underwent name changes for Japanese publishing. Most likely Nintendo had trademarks for just about every other Rare franchise at some point (with the possible exception of Conker), but those were obviously given up because they were easy to track and not as esoteric or disposable.

That being said, I don't have any active links to those names on trademark databases. It's possible those trademarks have expired by now, but given their presence in the game's files, it's safe to assume they log their trademarks closely, and those two games appearing in Smash's files makes the most sense if any at all are present.

That's that, I suppose.

 

[SKX31]

To be fair, Itagaki's blacklisted from the industry anyway, so I don't think they'd want to reopen old wounds.

If the Rare spirits data is a mistake, it's a special kind of mistake to assume Nintendo had negotiated with Microsoft for them, hearing they actually didn't, then sweeping everything under the rug and hoping no one found out.

Didn't know a now-blacklisted member of Ninja Gaiden's team helped create Devil's Third. Thank you - TIL.

Dinoman96 's qoute summed it up much better than I could honestly. That kerfuffle could* simply be one of Sakurai's employees putting the data in without checking on the legal front. Most people don't check on legal stuff that much before doing something - because legal stuff is infamously byzantine to those looking in from the outside. Legal stuff is going to almost inventiably result in special kinds of mistakes and weirdness like Nintendo owning the Japanese trademarks but not the copyright or American / European trademarks. Likewise, the Wii U version of Devil's Third could simply still be trademarked by Nintendo.

And I should clarify: The closest one can get to primary evidence IMHO (outside of actually showing the new character) is stuff like Phil's comments because they indicate interest from Microsoft's end.

*(Not commenting on how likely it is, I could be off the rails admittedly.)

 

[EpicElliot]

@conkerhimself is tweeting out info on Conkers Other Day cancelled game Ideas he wrote down if you guys wana look it up

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Eh, whatever happens will happen. I still think it's likely that neither the Banjoroos or Steve fans may get anything.

Spoiler

And then they can be drinking buddies over sorrow at the **** and Plucker afterwards.

 

[BravadoMan_13]

Guys, Joker has spirits included. Are you thinking what I’m thinking? Blast Corps and Jet Force Gemini themes play in the background

View attachment 209188
Also, not gonna lie, I thought this was Grunty for a second.

First thought when I saw this...

Grunty's coming guys. I know it isn't a direct reference for Banjo foreshadowing but it's still a neat coincidence. Though Gruntilda is in my top 10 most wanted characters, she would be awesome to have in the roster. With Joker getting this special treatment, I can only hope the same for our bear and bird.

 

[Brothanigus]

Yeah, that would have weight if there were more consumers who disagreed with the vision enough not to buy the game. And so far, Sakurai's vision has proved plenty effective enough to sell millions upon millions of copies.

LMFAO no, people buy this because it's Smash and a NIntendo game. That's it. In the gaming world Nintendo cannot make anything bad and all their main franchises sell well, and not because they are good just because of the name attached to it.And people can disagree with Sakurai vision and still buy/like the game. Put it this way, Ultimate could have had less than half the characters it has now, with more anime weeby nobodies, and it would have still sold just as well.

The name behind Nintendo products is the biggest reason they sell, not because they are "good."

 

[EricTheGamerman]

LMFAO no, people buy this because it's Smash and a NIntendo game. That's it. In the gaming world Nintendo cannot make anything bad and all their main franchises sell well, and not because they are good just because of the name attached to it.And people can disagree with Sakurai vision and still buy/like the game. Put it this way, Ultimate could have had less than half the characters it has now, with more anime weeby nobodies, and it would have still sold just as well.

The name behind Nintendo products is the biggest reason they sell, not because they are "good."

You overestimate the mindlessness of consumers a little bit there I think. I know a great deal of the hype surrounding Smash in my circles of less involved friends came from the size of the roster and the perceived quality of the title. I think Smash will sell well on Nintendo consoles in general and so will characters, but I’d wager the amazing marketing campaign for this game also helped give it both the astronomical sales it’s seeing and sell quite a few Switches while they were at it.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

First thought when I saw this...

Grunty's coming guys. I know it isn't a direct reference for Banjo foreshadowing but it's still a neat coincidence. Though Gruntilda is in my top 10 most wanted characters, she would be awesome to have in the roster. With Joker getting this special treatment, I can only hope the same for our bear and bird.

It would be a dream come true if we get Banjo & Kazooie and Gruntilda at E3. A man can dream right? I wish this would happen honestly.

LMFAO no, people buy this because it's Smash and a NIntendo game. That's it. In the gaming world Nintendo cannot make anything bad and all their main franchises sell well, and not because they are good just because of the name attached to it.And people can disagree with Sakurai vision and still buy/like the game. Put it this way, Ultimate could have had less than half the characters it has now, with more anime weeby nobodies, and it would have still sold just as well.

The name behind Nintendo products is the biggest reason they sell, not because they are "good."

That is true, but it doesn't mean we have to treat ever game Nintendo makes as a masterpiece.

 

[MangoTwist]

Ah, ok.

In any case, the Steve trolls are clearly starting to get desperate as they realise that their characters' chances are slipping by the day.



Doy, it took me until now to notice that the cauldron has eyes, too.

The cauldron doesnt have eyes isin the direct

 

[volbound1700]

We won't hear anything else until E3. Japan is bringing in a new Emperor and is about to hit a major holiday period. I know because I work for a Japanese Company (although not in the video game industry).

 

[Swop]

It would be a dream come true if we get Banjo & Kazooie and Gruntilda at E3. A man can dream right? I wish this would happen honestly.

I would literally die from crying so hard, 18 years since a (Proper) Nintendo Release and we see HD Banjo and Gruntilda as Playable Characters, duking it out with the Likes of Mario, Bowser, DK, King K, etc. etc.

Banjo would already make me lose it and destroy my lungs, but both?

*inhale*

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAHAAHHAAAAAA!!!

 

[weallfloatdownhere7]

Do people actually think anyone is saying that witch is LITERALLY Gruntilda? I keep seeing people arguing “where’s her scarf??” or “where’s the cauldron’s eyes??” or “Gruntilda doesn’t have brown hair!!” etc etc. Smh. Nobody is saying it’s ACTUALLY supposed to be Gruntilda. We’re saying it looks like a cool little reference to Gruntilda which in and of itself is cool because that seems like Nintendo are acknowledging the Banjo games. That’s it.

 

[TheZoologist]

Do people actually think anyone is saying that witch is LITERALLY Gruntilda? I keep seeing people arguing “where’s her scarf??” or “where’s the cauldron’s eyes??” or “Gruntilda doesn’t have brown hair!!” etc etc. Smh. Nobody is saying it’s ACTUALLY supposed to be Gruntilda. We’re saying it looks like a cool little reference to Gruntilda which in and of itself is cool because that seems like Nintendo are acknowledging the Banjo games. That’s it.

Yeah that was my take on it as well, no one is saying it's Gruntilda or that it means anything towards Banjo & Kazooie's inclusion, just that it's interesting that they had a witch among built stages revolving around Nintendo franchises...

 

[TheCJBrine]

I've actually seen a few people take "this is a hint" seriously, as in, they believe it, or are really considering it, someone in YT comments even bringing up the Teddie hat/something about a bear costume in relation to the Joker + 3.0 reveal so I assume Teddie.

but I can't judge because of my silly mind and the fantastical conspiracy chairs; please give me Skull Kid.

 

[Lycan Rex]

Don't look into the witch too much guys. Skull kids did the same thing with the chairs and all they got was an assist trophy.

 

[LogFrog]

It definitely also has something to do with the timing that makes it a bit strange. If it were October it wouldn’t seem that out of place cause of Halloween obviously. I’m not saying that this is a hint towards Banjo though. Personally, even if it’s not a hint at all, I still find it a bit more plausible than yellow and purple chairs being a hint. There are many things with a purple and yellow color scheme; they could just be Wario chairs for all we know. How many game franchises are there with green witches in them. I certainly can’t name a lot off the top of my head other than Banjo. The witch in the stage builder is most likely just a Wizard of Oz reference though I haven’t seen that film in a while to know if the witch had a cat or not.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

We won't hear anything else until E3. Japan is bringing in a new Emperor and is about to hit a major holiday period. I know because I work for a Japanese Company (although not in the video game industry).

That explains why the update we got came without fanfare.

Who's the guy succeeding Heisei, by the way?

Don't look into the witch too much guys. Skull kids did the same thing with the chairs and all they got was an assist trophy.

And the chairs were foreshadowing for the final bosses.

If anything, the NOA tweet with a Skull Kid statue in it was a bigger embarassment.

 

[N3ON]

Was also pretty cool when Nintendo referenced GS with the Rathalos pic.

 

[MissingGlitch]

More then likely they told play testers "hey go nuts your stage might be featured in a trailer....also no ***** or you're fired"

 

[TheBeastHimself]

Going back to a previous topic, why the hell do people get mad when they "anime characters" join the roster? You are literally playing a game from Japan, that makes no sense people are getting mad that Japan's predominate animated art style is getting utilized a lot when the damn game is from Japan.

 

[TheCJBrine]

my favorite anime is Banjo-Kazooie.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Going back to a previous topic, why the hell do people get mad when they "anime characters" join the roster? You are literally playing a game from Japan, that makes no sense people are getting mad that Japan's predominate animated art style is getting utilized a lot when the damn game is from Japan.

Must be the fact that they're often associated with swordsmen in Smash.

If this was a crossover game made in the West focusing on standard muscular Western heroes, I bet they'd get annoyed at that.

Oh wait, Brawlout DOES look Western and is made by Westerners, yet people don't care about that game as much.

All I'm saying is, people have flimsy excuses for rejecting characters they don't care about.

 

[MissingGlitch]

my favorite anime is Banjo-Kazooie.

You're not a true fan unless you've read the manga.

 

[ryuu seika]

You're not a true fan unless you've read the manga.

Yet we actively avoid mentioning the Yooka-Laylee spinoff manga?

 

[MissingGlitch]

Yet we actively avoid mentioning the Yooka-Laylee spinoff manga?

The what know?

 

[Deleted member]

You're not a true fan unless you've read the manga.

I don't understand why they removed the Fungus Forest arc in the animated adaptation, it explained a part of Gruntilda's backstory.

 

[ryuu seika]

The what know?

Just a little joke about the comics, the reception of that series as a whole and the way that fandoms tend to work.
Every anime series has its manga elitists but, for example, people actively refuse to aknowledge the existence of Soul Eater NOT because "it's not Soul Eater". Despite, if you truly don't treat it as Soul Eater, it being a perfectly fine show.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I liked the part where Grunty explained her plan to Tootie in some complicated fashion, only for the machine to fall apart before she was even half-way finished with the explanation.

Then Klungo barged in and crushed the parts, causing Grunty to get so mad she fainted before she could do anything.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I don't understand why they removed the Fungus Forest arc in the animated adaptation, it explained a part of Gruntilda's backstory.

I understand even less why they extended the Rusty Bucket Bay arc, the fight with Boss Boom Box took weeks to finish.

 

[Deleted member]

I understand even less why they extended the Rusty Bucket Bay arc, the fight with Boss Boom Box took weeks to finish.

I think that's because they catched up to the manga too soon and had to extend the fight. Basically filler.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I think that's because they catched up to the manga too soon and had to extend the fight. Basically filler.

Still beats what was done for the Donkey Kong 64 anime, in which they did a bunch of filler arcs after the Crystal Caves one about flying to various islands, when a boss key was stolen. First few were decent, but the rest got worse over time.

 

[Lycan Rex]

I'm worried about changing animation studios. Madhouse did such a good job, I don't know how this new studio is gonna live up to that.

 

[MissingGlitch]

Just a little joke about the comics, the reception of that series as a whole and the way that fandoms tend to work.
Every anime series has its manga elitists but, for example, people actively refuse to aknowledge the existence of Soul Eater NOT because "it's not Soul Eater". Despite, if you truly don't treat it as Soul Eater, it being a perfectly fine show.

You didn't catch my little joke there lol