Ban people for spamming

Alsyght

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#1
I really think Nintendo’s banning system is kind of ridiculous for bad connection disconnecting, or SD’ing too often, or even idling, but why is there no banning for spamming? I feel like online should track the staling of moves and bam people for using the same move 15-20 times in a row. If Sakurai’s all about having fun in this game, then he should do that. Unless he spams himself
 

Coolboy

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#2
that's like saying ''ban people for camping!'' ''ban people that cheese!'' and for some maybe even ''ban teabaggers!''

you will always have spammers in each game and that even goes for Ultimate, yeah it can be annoying with certain characters but if you play a character that can reflect projectiles/gets healed by it then it's a easy match for you.
 

Sean²

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#3
If it works, then it's on you, not on them. The tools are there to be used as the player sees fit. You can learn how to counter the spam, then you don't have to rematch them if you don't want to. Arbitrary bans for actually playing the game will only cheapen it, and make it so Nintendo is seen as being even more kiddy than they already are.
 

Xquirtle

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#4
If it works, then it's on you, not on them. The tools are there to be used as the player sees fit. You can learn how to counter the spam, then you don't have to rematch them if you don't want to. Arbitrary bans for actually playing the game will only cheapen it, and make it so Nintendo is seen as being even more kiddy than they already are.
They actually already have ridiculous bans. You can get timed out for using no offense or defense, even if you are moving around. not sure precisely how this happened, but I was trying to SD out of some aids rule set, one of the maps that wraps you around to the other side. So like i literally could not SD. I ended up getting disconnected for idle even though i was purposefully positioning myself so that I would die. It must have realized that I hadnt used a single offensive or defensive ability for the entire match and decided that I was just running away or something, idk.
 

Alsyght

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#5
Getting banned for 2 hours when the game disconnects for any reason.
The game doesn’t give you your preferred ruleset most of the time.
GSP and ranking system is crap.
But they can’t ban spammers?
If the game can track idling like that, then it could consider spam as idling and ban you.
 

FartyParty

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#6
Yeah banning ppl for spam would be super lame. The bottom line is that every possible spam strategy has a counter-strategy that can beat it, and this remains true regardless of what character you use or what spam you're facing. The only thing that varies is the degree of difficulty in executing the counter-strategy.

Rather than call for bans, try:
1) Save replay
2) Convert to video
3) Transfer video from SD card to computer
4) Upload to YouTube
5) Post video to forums and ask how to counter the spam you faced
 
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#7
In addition to finding an efficient way to counter/work around the spammed move, it's always good to keep in mind that the move is becoming weaker (both in dmg and knockback) each time it hits you (or your shield). It's an in-game mechanic meant to discourage spamming, it's called stale-move negation (in case you didn't know).

Also, like FartyParty FartyParty mentionned, there's plenty of people here on Smashboards that can help you deal with a particular move.
 
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#8
Banning people for how they play their character is ridiculous. As annoying as spam is, it's predictable and easy to get around. Just because a certain strategy is annoying, doesn't mean they should get banned whatsoever. They might be new to the game or character, and resort to spam as their winning strategy. They will learn just like we all did back when we started playing Smash for the first time.
 

Sean²

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#9
They actually already have ridiculous bans. You can get timed out for using no offense or defense, even if you are moving around. not sure precisely how this happened, but I was trying to SD out of some aids rule set, one of the maps that wraps you around to the other side. So like i literally could not SD. I ended up getting disconnected for idle even though i was purposefully positioning myself so that I would die. It must have realized that I hadnt used a single offensive or defensive ability for the entire match and decided that I was just running away or something, idk.
Dumb, yes. But very different than what the OP is talking about. People get disconnected for using moves and not moving, as the game sees them as idle as well. I guess it assumes you could have dropped your controller on a button or something, no idea. But OP wants bans for people actually playing the game.
 

1FC0

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#10
I would rather not have Sakurai police how I play my games. He is already doing too much policing IMO.

If you have trouble with spammers then learn to counter their spam.
 
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#11
Banning spam is essentially saying, "Don't play the game." Projectile spam is often the kind in mind. Never mind any non-projectile attack is spammable. Even shielding or dodging is spammable.
 

Xquirtle

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#12
Banning spam is essentially saying, "Don't play the game." Projectile spam is often the kind in mind. Never mind any non-projectile attack is spammable. Even shielding or dodging is spammable.
Right, like the best way to resurrect online and kill the cancerous camping play styles is to nerf the projectile damage and stop adding so damn many to the game.
 

Dacklives

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#13
I don't see why spamming would give you such a hard time. Don't the moves go stale? If they keep using the same moves over and over again and you can't counter that I think that you might need to read up on better ways to approach this game.
 
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#14
Right, like the best way to resurrect online and kill the cancerous camping play styles is to nerf the projectile damage and stop adding so damn many to the game.
Um, no. People have been defensive in this game without projectiles. Why nerf projectile damage? Might as well nerf everyone else, then. Besides, shielding projectiles in this game causes them to stale, a feature not present in previous games.

As for online, I blame GSP. People are more focused on maintaining their points, rather than learning to deal with match-ups.
 
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Xquirtle

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#15
Um, no. People have been defensive in this game without projectiles. Why nerf projectile damage? Might as well nerf everyone else, then. Besides, shielding projectiles in this game causes them to stale, a feature not present in previous games.

As for online, I blame GSP. People are more focused on maintaining their points, rather than learning to deal with match-ups.
Why NOT nerf projectile damage? Are they contributing anything to the game other than being incredibly annoying? I realize that you have samus as your main for all 6 games, so we may just disagree here, but my personal view on this is that the most common complaint about this game is projectiles. Like you can't be telling me that Wolf laser or Pichu Jolt are reasonable in the % that they put out in addition to hit stun, and being zero risk. They could halve or even remove the damage of both and they would still be incredible tools.

Regardless, the point that i was trying to make is that banning stupid play styles makes no sense vs changing the game to create incentive for less obnoxious play. Projectiles contribute to the obnoxious play but aren't the only factor. GSP is certainly part of it in addition to defensive play being way easier to pull off than heavy offense. Like dodge rolling somebody's approach is 50 times easier than getting the read on that roll. This becomes less of a thing as you improve, but a vast majority of the playerbase see's a meta where letting your opponent mess up is by far the best strat. and to close it off, the most common way to force your opponent to mess up is to out camp him on projectiles and force them to approach.
 
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Sean²

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#17
Um, no. People have been defensive in this game without projectiles. Why nerf projectile damage? Might as well nerf everyone else, then. Besides, shielding projectiles in this game causes them to stale, a feature not present in previous games.

As for online, I blame GSP. People are more focused on maintaining their points, rather than learning to deal with match-ups.
Why NOT nerf projectile damage? Are they contributing anything to the game other than being incredibly annoying? I realize that you have samus as your main for all 6 games, so we may just disagree here, but my personal view on this is that the most common complaint about this game is projectiles. Like you can't be telling me that Wolf laser or Pichu Jolt are reasonable in the % that they put out in addition to hit stun, and being zero risk. They could halve or even remove the damage of both and they would still be incredible tools.
I think if traditional powershielding made a return, they wouldn't be quite as frustrating to deal with. But powershielding brings about its own issues, considering you could act immediately after performing one and completely ignore shield damage and shieldstun, and it wasn't restricted to projectiles hitting your shield, either. Overly defensive play could make a return, as powershielding was super easy to pull off.

With parrying, which is a little harder to pull off successfully, the defensive play isn't as attractive. But they have kept projectile strength very high, as well. Parrying projectiles offers little reward to the risk you put yourself into, especially against characters like Pichu who can chase their projectiles. Parrying projectiles does nothing to the attacker, so they're free to punish as they see fit regardless of whether you parry or regular shield, if the attack causes enough shieldstun. Parrying has actually buffed projectiles in a way, because you have no quick way of negating them, unless your character has a counter, reflector, or the ability to absorb...ohwait, how many members of the cast can do this now? Yeah, a lot of them. Maybe not intuitive to counter every little Luigi fireball or something, but strong stuff can still be negated.

So, I don't think projectiles in general should be nerfed. Characters centralized around their projectile play could become unviable this way. Most of the heavy projectile users have some glaring weaknesses already. To convert some characters into primarily CQC fighters would take a complete overhaul of them, and ruin the fun for people who like projectiles. Then you have the argument of nerfing individual projectiles....which is a whole other ballgame of a discussion, because then you're talking about nerfing characters, not projectiles as a whole.

My solution is to not pick FD against them, ever, and just learn to get around it. I dunno how many times I've just jumped over Samus's charge shot and beaten the snot out of her now.
 
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#18
Why NOT nerf projectile damage? Are they contributing anything to the game other than being incredibly annoying? I realize that you have samus as your main for all 6 games, so we may just disagree here, but my personal view on this is that the most common complaint about this game is projectiles. Like you can't be telling me that Wolf laser or Pichu Jolt are reasonable in the % that they put out in addition to hit stun, and being zero risk. They could halve or even remove the damage of both and they would still be incredible tools.

Regardless, the point that i was trying to make is that banning stupid play styles makes no sense vs changing the game to create incentive for less obnoxious play. Projectiles contribute to the obnoxious play but aren't the only factor. GSP is certainly part of it in addition to defensive play being way easier to pull off than heavy offense. Like dodge rolling somebody's approach is 50 times easier than getting the read on that roll. This becomes less of a thing as you improve, but a vast majority of the playerbase see's a meta where letting your opponent mess up is by far the best strat. and to close it off, the most common way to force your opponent to mess up is to out camp him on projectiles and force them to approach.
Annoyance is subjective. I don't think even if Samus was my main, that I'd be in favor of nerfing projectiles. In Wolf's case, I think mid-range would be preferable over the range it has now, but I still manage. I think it was shorter in SSBB. Pichu's Thunder Jolt is easily dealt with by Charge Shot. Besides, there are plenty of ways to deal with projectile in this game. Evasive play styles, characters with reflectors or counters, &c. Characters who couldn't reflect, or had a poor kind now are better, including King Dedede, Zelda, Palutena, and Mr. Game & Watch. I think SSBU is rather defensive, only because people are relying more heavily on the neutral this time around. You're just going to have to learn how to get around that.
 

Xquirtle

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#19
Annoyance is subjective. I don't think even if Samus was my main, that I'd be in favor of nerfing projectiles. In Wolf's case, I think mid-range would be preferable over the range it has now, but I still manage. I think it was shorter in SSBB. Pichu's Thunder Jolt is easily dealt with by Charge Shot. Besides, there are plenty of ways to deal with projectile in this game. Evasive play styles, characters with reflectors or counters, &c. Characters who couldn't reflect, or had a poor kind now are better, including King Dedede, Zelda, Palutena, and Mr. Game & Watch. I think SSBU is rather defensive, only because people are relying more heavily on the neutral this time around. You're just going to have to learn how to get around that.
Certainly. Virtually every game online is somebody attempting to camp me one way or another, so its not foreign. Projectiles are part of the game, but that doesn't mean that the current quantity of them actually makes the game better. I think it makes the experience worse overall, especially for newer players. To that end, it would not bother me in the slightest if we saw nerfs to many of them. People would use them less as a result and the game would be more fun for everybody.
 
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#20
Banning spam is essentially saying, "Don't play the game." Projectile spam is often the kind in mind. Never mind any non-projectile attack is spammable. Even shielding or dodging is spammable.
Says the person who flat out blocks and reports people for taunting and teabagging due to salt.
 
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#21
Certainly. Virtually every game online is somebody attempting to camp me one way or another, so its not foreign. Projectiles are part of the game, but that doesn't mean that the current quantity of them actually makes the game better. I think it makes the experience worse overall, especially for newer players. To that end, it would not bother me in the slightest if we saw nerfs to many of them. People would use them less as a result and the game would be more fun for everybody.
What you're asking for is to nerf character who rely on projectiles to get far anyway.

Says the person who flat out blocks and reports people for taunting and teabagging due to salt.
Unless there's relevance for saying this, I'll dismiss this as an informal fallacy.
 
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#22
Unless there's relevance for saying this, I'll dismiss this as an informal fallacy.
I hate people who tea bag. I report them and put them on block. I had to make room for those I blocked, since you can only block up to 100 people.
Informal fallacy, huh? It comes of as hypocritical by saying teabagging is a reportable offense, yet spamming somehow isn't, according to your logic. Oh wait... you're a Samus main. It all makes sense now.
 
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Xquirtle

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#23
What you're asking for is to nerf character who rely on projectiles to get far anyway.



Unless there's relevance for saying this, I'll dismiss this as an informal fallacy.
I didn't ask for anything. The initial comment, as i've already pointed out, was that banning people for spamming is not a means to fix the terrible online meta. This is all my opinion, and I am definitely 100% fine with characters that rely on projectiles to "not play the game" getting nerfed / re-balanced to favor more melee ranged combat.

The level of offense that you are taking to this seems to suggest that you have been corning camping as samus for 6 games now.
 

TheDuke54

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#24
Smash4 did ban people for spamming, if I recall correctly. But it was mostly for spamming the same input without any other command. They should probably bring that back if they're going to punish people for those matches where everyone gets kicked before the fight starts. Cause that's on the server and not the player.
 
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#25
I didn't ask for anything. The initial comment, as i've already pointed out, was that banning people for spamming is not a means to fix the terrible online meta. This is all my opinion, and I am definitely 100% fine with characters that rely on projectiles to "not play the game" getting nerfed / re-balanced to favor more melee ranged combat.

The level of offense that you are taking to this seems to suggest that you have been corning camping as samus for 6 games now.
Well, sure, you didn't ask directly, but from what your initial comment suggested to me was that you think characters with projectiles should have their projectiles nerfed. I'd like for Samus' CQC to be better than it is now.

I'm not even offended. You're the second person who has both assumed you have epistemic access to my brain (you don't) and appealed to motive (which is irrelevant). If you'd like to see my Samus in action, here you are.

 
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TheDuke54

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#26
On the topic of teabagging, I've had people get super salty when they thought I was teabagging when I was actually trying to get my stupid fighter to drop below the platform lol.

You're pretty good with Samus/DS, but I'm sure the other poster was remarking on fighters who unfortunately get her deemed as 'Spamus' where they pretty much don't do anything else but rockets and charger shots then book it to the other ledge and rinse/repeat.
 
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#27
On the topic of teabagging, I've had people get super salty when they thought I was teabagging when I was actually trying to get my stupid fighter to drop below the platform lol.

You're pretty good with Samus/DS, but I'm sure the other poster was remarking on fighters who unfortunately get her deemed as 'Spamus' where they pretty much don't do anything else but rockets and charger shots then book it to the other ledge and rinse/repeat.
I understand that. I sometimes try getting through the platform and when I crouch twice, I think, "I hope he/she didn't think I was tea bagging."

Thanks. I appreciate it. There are times where I feel the need to spam projectiles. I fought a Snake in Elite Smash today. We both spammed, but on the third match, I thought getting in my opponent's range would put a little more pressure on him, and it did. So, I feel there's a time to spam projectiles and a time not to. It depends on who I'm dealing with. Still, I am evasive when I'm not in control of the stage, and I think evasiveness is part of playing the neutral in this game. There have been non-projectile fighters I've fought who evaded and got into my head as a result. It worked to their advantage, so I decided I'd pick up that kind of method.
 

Xquirtle

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#28
Well, sure, you didn't ask directly, but from what your initial comment suggested to me was that you think characters with projectiles should have their projectiles nerfed. I'd like for Samus' CQC to be better than it is now.

I'm not even offended. You're the second person who has both assumed you have epistemic access to my brain (you don't) and appealed to motive (which is irrelevant). If you'd like to see my Samus in action, here you are.

LOL "epistemic access to my brain" and you try to epeen me with youtube links right after? You are contradicting yourself by hinting that you give even the slightest of ****s for my opinion.
 
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#29
LOL "epistemic access to my brain" and you try to epeen me with youtube links right after? You are contradicting yourself by hinting that you give even the slightest of ****s for my opinion.
Responding to someone doesn't mean one is offended. I see this isn't getting anywhere, however.
 
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#32
The online has flaws for sure, but player behavior is something you can't control. Doesn't matter how many restrictions you impose, people will find ways to be a ****, play lame, giver others grief, etc. I'm sure if you came up with better restrictions and a banning system, there will always to be players who will try to make the experience unpleasant to others.
Again, the online in Ultimate is flawed, but lame play or acting like a ******** is not Nintendo's, Sakurai's or the game's fault at all.
 

Xquirtle

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#33
The online has flaws for sure, but player behavior is something you can't control. Doesn't matter how many restrictions you impose, people will find ways to be a ****, play lame, giver others grief, etc. I'm sure if you came up with better restrictions and a banning system, there will always to be players who will try to make the experience unpleasant to others.
Again, the online in Ultimate is flawed, but lame play or acting like a ******** is not Nintendo's, Sakurai's or the game's fault at all.
Have to disagree slightly in that the online meta is ultimately a product of how the game is balanced and designed. A vast majority of people camp because it is an effective and low risk strategy. Reduce the effectiveness / increase the risk and people will camp less in favor of whatever is now more effective. Not saying this eliminates it, but the game design is pretty clearly the root cause of player habits.

Regardless, I don't think that a majority of people "spamming" online are doing it to troll. They actually just suck and eventually they find out that they can win games with B button only Ganon. Equally as bad players then lose to them and feel cheesed because... well... they were literally cheesed. Personally, I don't really care about this sort of spamming but nintendo could easily nerf it by making the major offending abilities have way higher diminishing returns when used twice in a row or something. There are definitely options if they wanted to reduce this sort of play.
 
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#34
Regardless, I don't think that a majority of people "spamming" online are doing it to troll. They actually just suck and eventually they find out that they can win games with B button only Ganon. Equally as bad players then lose to them and feel cheesed because... well... they were literally cheesed. Personally, I don't really care about this sort of spamming but nintendo could easily nerf it by making the major offending abilities have way higher diminishing returns when used twice in a row or something. There are definitely options if they wanted to reduce this sort of play.
In the case that you describe that spammer is actually mindgaming the noob. The spammer keeps correctly predicting that the noob will not use any of the many counters to Ganondorf's specials which basically means that the spammer keeps winning mindgames. The fault here does not lie with the spammer who keeps mindgaming the noob but with the noob who refuses to mindgame and instead just stupidly repeats the same tactics.

Demanding that the spammer stops spamming is equivalent to demanding that he stops mindgaming since his spam is really just a series of correct predictions.
 
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Coolboy

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#35
since were talking about spamming.. i felt like trying it out with Mii Swordfighter just mindless brain dead side B spam (the rolling attack is how i call it..hopefully you guys know which move i mean?) and let me tell you..the opponents kept falling for it alot, especially in team matches it seems to work all the time! i get why people keep spamming at times..if it works all the time then why stop? lol
 
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Luigifan18

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#36
In the case that you describe that spammer is actually mindgaming the noob. The spammer keeps correctly predicting that the noob will not use any of the many counters to Ganondorf's specials which basically means that the spammer keeps winning mindgames. The fault here does not lie with the spammer who keeps mindgaming the noob but with the noob who refuses to mindgame and instead just stupidly repeats the same tactics.

Demanding that the spammer stops spamming is equivalent to demanding that he stops mindgaming since his spam is really just a series of correct predictions.
You have a point, but I think you're giving most spammers a bit too much credit.
 
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#37
You have a point, but I think you're giving most spammers a bit too much credit.
It is true that some people spam out of a lack of skill. But when a spammer plays against an inferior opponent that he can easily beat then the case where the spammer is spamming due to him winning mindgames and the case where the spammer is spamming because it is all he can do look the same. Therefore the only way to properly judge someone's skill is by putting him against a opponent that is hard for him to beat. Trying to judge a spammer's true skill by putting him against someone that he can easily beat is like trying to judge how strong a man is by making him lift a feather.

The idea that someone's skill can be accurately inferred by putting him against someone that he can beat with ease is merely a fantasy of salty noobs seeking an excuse for why they got bodied.
 

Xquirtle

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#38
In the case that you describe that spammer is actually mindgaming the noob. The spammer keeps correctly predicting that the noob will not use any of the many counters to Ganondorf's specials which basically means that the spammer keeps winning mindgames. The fault here does not lie with the spammer who keeps mindgaming the noob but with the noob who refuses to mindgame and instead just stupidly repeats the same tactics.

Demanding that the spammer stops spamming is equivalent to demanding that he stops mindgaming since his spam is really just a series of correct predictions.
Well, no, because in the case that I am describing, the spammer is not participating in any mind games at all. They repeatedly use the same abilities even when they are punished over and over and over. They just have no other strategy, but it sometimes works since its easy to throw out huge sweeping hitboxes that easily catch bad players failing defense / whiffing offense. I have actually played Ganons that have no ability to do anything other than C stick and B abilities. They get dumped on for the entire match and just keep on trying until they lose. This is indicative of a player with limited skill, not a higher level player exploiting easy abilities.

All that aside, I'm not demanding that people stop spamming Ganon abilities since those are free wins. My point was that if Nintendo cared to fix it, the right way to do it would be to give players incentives to play differently with balance, not just create some sort of ridiculous ban / report system or whatever. and... in general, I don't really like that the game actively promotes this sort of play for newer players. It just creates a bad environment for lower skill players that are trying to play the game honestly, but feel cheesed by side B spammers every other game.
 
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#39
Well, no, because in the case that I am describing, the spammer is not participating in any mind games at all. They repeatedly use the same abilities even when they are punished over and over and over. They just have no other strategy, but it sometimes works since its easy to throw out huge sweeping hitboxes that easily catch bad players failing defense / whiffing offense. I have actually played Ganons that have no ability to do anything other than C stick and B abilities. They get dumped on for the entire match and just keep on trying until they lose. This is indicative of a player with limited skill, not a higher level player exploiting easy abilities.
My answer to this is right above your post. Though I find it hard to believe that a good player would get beaten by a Ganondorf that is mindlessy spamming his specials. I know his specials have large hitboxes but they are all very punishable when predicted correctly. If you lose regularly to Ganondorfs who mindlessy spam their specials then I would advice you to shield or jump his vB and jump or spotdodge his >B. Those are easy counters for when you see the moves coming.
 

Luigifan18

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#40
Well, no, because in the case that I am describing, the spammer is not participating in any mind games at all. They repeatedly use the same abilities even when they are punished over and over and over. They just have no other strategy, but it sometimes works since its easy to throw out huge sweeping hitboxes that easily catch bad players failing defense / whiffing offense. I have actually played Ganons that have no ability to do anything other than C stick and B abilities. They get dumped on for the entire match and just keep on trying until they lose. This is indicative of a player with limited skill, not a higher level player exploiting easy abilities.

All that aside, I'm not demanding that people stop spamming Ganon abilities since those are free wins. My point was that if Nintendo cared to fix it, the right way to do it would be to give players incentives to play differently with balance, not just create some sort of ridiculous ban / report system or whatever. and... in general, I don't really like that the game actively promotes this sort of play for newer players. It just creates a bad environment for lower skill players that are trying to play the game honestly, but feel cheesed by side B spammers every other game.
Those are the kind of players I was talking about when I said that referring to spam as a mindgame was an overly generous label.
 
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