Balanced Brawl Version 2 Release

[A2ZOMG]

Someone needs to give me a reason to get back into this...I really want to, but I'm lazy, and I don't know who to introduce to this.

And I'm trying to be in the chat more I guess.

 

[MithosKuu]

I really like all the changes you guys have made, I just wish I could get it to work.

Every time I try to run Balanced Brawl, the Stage Builder crash works just fine, I can get to the Title Screen for the Balanced version, but if I try to get to the Main Menu the game will hang on a white screen.

My SD card is completely empty except for the files/folders I copied to the root, straight from the download link. I even tried booting from GeckoOS 1.9.2 from the HBC but still no luck.

Any work arounds/fixes? Maybe I'm missing something obvious...

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I really like all the changes you guys have made, I just wish I could get it to work.

Every time I try to run Balanced Brawl, the Stage Builder crash works just fine, I can get to the Title Screen for the Balanced version, but if I try to get to the Main Menu the game will hang on a white screen.

My SD card is completely empty except for the files/folders I copied to the root, straight from the download link. I even tried booting from GeckoOS 1.9.2 from the HBC but still no luck.

Any work arounds/fixes? Maybe I'm missing something obvious...

Hmm...

If you make it to the title screen, obviously the game is loading successfully. The crash point being at the main menu actually narrows the possibilities a lot, but a crash there is mostly novel. You may have had a random corruption of one of the menu files we edited while downloading or extracting Balanced Brawl. I suggest clearing the SD card, redownloading, and trying again.

To be clear, you are on NTSC, right? Also, if that doesn't work, try opening up the file structure and removing a few of the menu files from your SD card (they have no gameplay effect). This should make it obvious which file is causing your crashing.

 

[MithosKuu]

Alright, removing the main menu pac file fixed it, thanks!

 

[ぱみゅ]

I wanted to show this at our National, but there was a lot of Problems with setups and time, so I was unable to do some few games, where people randomly complaint about stuff that weren't even changed....

 

[JOE!]

odd suggestion now that i think of it (and now that it's been so long)...


but would it be possible to change the (S)DI values or KB of Bowser's/Zard's firebreaths?

the main reason they "suck" is that most people just DI toward them and punish them for it, if this act was made alot harder the moves would become more useful...

 

[ぱみゅ]

Another random suggestion: bone specific invincibility.
Ganon's Ftilt would make a lot more sence if his leg is invincible rather than having SA. Same with his Dtilt.

Someone at the end of the V1 thread said that, but I think it didn't got response since it got closed few time after that.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Make Ganon's D-smash and Dash attack safe on block, that's all I want for him.

And the reason his D-smash 2nd hit pulls people towards him. I know it's related to the move property of having the opponent facing the wrong direction after they get hit. When Ganon's D-smash connects, his opponent faces backwards. Now if that somehow is fixable...

Yeah and put that property on Ganon's Dash Attack instead.

 

[Lentini]

BUG REPORT: (sorry if it's been found already, I didn't read this thread)
The character select screen freezes after pressing start when RANDOM STAGE SELECT is ON.
thank you.


By the way, I absolutely love balanced brawl, great job!

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

odd suggestion now that i think of it (and now that it's been so long)...


but would it be possible to change the (S)DI values or KB of Bowser's/Zard's firebreaths?

the main reason they "suck" is that most people just DI toward them and punish them for it, if this act was made alot harder the moves would become more useful...

For one, the main thing to get through those moves is SDI. aSDI is of some utility. Normal DI is useless in those situations.

For two, we actually did discuss these moves, and our conclusion basically was this. They currently are kinda bad but not useless. Quick flame bursts from large ranges can be fairly safe, and neither character has a better disjoint than that, especially not one that can be used in the air. Sometimes they have minor utility in edge guarding as well (not so much as to gimp as to get a little extra damage, getting easy, free damage is probably a more realistic goal than gimping in those situations as Bowser and Charizard). However, the logical conclusion of them being better would be worrisome. If you couldn't consistently get behind the flames when they were held, they would be more or less broken as an edge guarding tool. If it were hard but doable, we stand the risk of making kinda silly barriers of entry since SDI "skill" varies wildly among players. Given that neither character's playstyle really requires this to be a good move, having it be a niche move seems to be a good option.

Ganon's ftilt having an invincible leg would be very reasonable if designing the game from scratch, but it's "more intrusive" than super armor due to the way that it's basically just re-arranging hurtboxes and redefining priority. I also think the super armor makes a good deal of sense and works alongside Ganon's design as a character. Ganon's super armor is linked to him "bracing himself" in the animation. Ganon being the slowest and strongest character, super armor suits him pretty well (why he didn't have any in the first place, or really much of anything to justify picking him, is a question for another day).

I wish this were more widely played simply because we're about at the point where we can't honestly claim to know what's good any more. Changing the push direction on Ganon's second hit of dsmash (which is probably possible by changing some flag values) is maybe reasonable, but the question is how good Ganon really is right now. The "data" is too limited, and what we've seen so far has had Ganon doing fine. There are some fairly reasonable sounding "logical arguments" about why Ganon is bad, but I don't feel they're conclusive especially in light of the fact that Ganon is such an outlier among the cast who is going to ultimately play pretty differently from anyone else.

Lentini, we know about that bug; it's a problem with smash stack. I suggest against using that feature with Balanced Brawl; there's essentially nothing we can do to fix this one. Luckily, very few users set their stage selection method to that, and it's not much of a time loss to just click "random" manually given that the cursor always starts over it on the stage select screen.

 

[JOE!]

Yeah, makes sense AA (as I really only use fire to space of at an edge anyways), just a passing thought

As for another thought, me and A2 talked about this last nite:

As a "fix" for the stupid hard-land of Bowser's aerial Fortress, how about allowing him to initiate Fortress again during that lag? Essentially this will allow him to do the fortress twice (although ONLY if they are the two different versions), giving him new utility with move on platforms (where he can be juggled hard, as well as alleviate some recovery issues as he can land on stage then fortress to either abuse invincibility, or just push further away into the relative safety of the stage where he cant be edgegaurded.

 

[FinalDoomGuy]

I'm sorry but if you want a bigger community, you need a forum.

A little chatroom and one thread in a sub-forum of a sub-forum isn't that good for building up a community.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

You can't really expand the community that much. The target audience for this mod isn't as large as we'd all like it to be. Most people are "well, I'll just play vBrawl for a defensive game" or "I'd rather play B+/ or PM when it comes out".

 

[The_Altrox]

Hey, I haven't been keeping up with this. is it any more balanced than version 1? are there any flaws still? I don't need a big description. a quick synopsis will do.

 

[A2ZOMG]

BBrawl 2 imo is VERY good overall, about 90% of the cast is able to compete and doesn't really suffer from any retardedly bad matchups. As for bugs, I can't think of anything really critical, and the anti-planking fix is very good and very non-intrusive unless you're actually trying to plank excessively (which nobody in the right mind really wants do to)

A lot of us concluded that Wolf is one of the best characters in the game due to his recovery buff and the lack of any "gay" things (besides Kirby's chainthrow I guess) to hinder him, and due to his ability to hit hard pretty easily. I think most of us also agree Falco, Pikachu, and Peach are among the best characters in the game, but there are plenty of characters who stand a fair chance at winning against them.

Ganon still probably has some retardedly bad matchups, but he works due to F-tilt super armor frames, invincible wizkick (still a very unsafe move, but it beats EVERYTHING), F-air autocancel, and the other random stuff that he had in BBrawl1. Ike would be bad except his N-air was made retardedly good by virtue of it's extremely generous IASA frames (which I believe needs a tonedown in exchange for a different buff).

JOE and I think Bowser still needs a buff to recovery, since it's the real thing that unbalances his matchups, and he suggested that either we eliminate the hard landing animation, or we allow him to cancel it with another Up-B. I played Link, G&W, and Ganon vs his Bowser, and in all three matchups, there would be random times I would screw up and get killed, but for 90% of the match he would get juggled and edgeguarded to like 120-130% before I killed him. As for the firebreath, I suggested the other thing that could be done is increasing the knockback of the move (adjust angle to make sure nobody gets gimped too easily).

I personally also believe Kirby needs a recovery buff for the purpose of helping his matchups against G&W and Metaknight. Thinkaman and I talked a long time ago about possibly letting Kirby ledge sweetspot with aerial hammer, a move that G&W and Metaknight have a reason to not challenge mindlessly.

I believe Lucas needs better throws to make up for his lack of really safe ways to get grabs. Link as well probably needs better throws as well, but is otherwise solid, especially with a slight recovery buff.

Some of the characters like Samus, Mario, ROB, Falco, and I think Link did recieve tonedowns on some powerful moves that they had in BBrawl 1. G&W and Marth received damage nerfs to important moves. More Jab combos properly link in this game.

tl;dr, BBrawl 2 is very well balanced. At most only 4ish characters really need help for some stupidly bad matchups, but otherwise fundamentally most of what needs to be in the game made it in.


JOE and I played some lolwifi and we saved some funny replays which I think are pretty good at demonstrating what new things characters can do. And I have to say one thing about Ganon on wifi...the wizkick on wifi is STUPIDLY broken LOL. It was already stupidly good in vBrawl wifi so now that it beats Marth's sword and other dumb stuff yeah....Ganon on wifi is like top tier LOL.

And the Yoshi mains absolutely have to play BBrawl 2 because I believe Yoshi is a really really good character.

I just need to get a life and find time to upload those replays...

 

[Eldiran]

BBrawl 2 is excellent. Suffice to say that even though I am helping make Brawl- and/or Project: M, I still love BBrawl the most and would rather play it.

 

[The_Altrox]

BBrawl 2 imo is VERY good overall, about 90% of the cast is able to compete and doesn't really suffer from any retardedly bad matchups. As for bugs, I can't think of anything really critical, and the anti-planking fix is very good and very non-intrusive unless you're actually trying to plank excessively (which nobody in the right mind really wants do to)

A lot of us concluded that Wolf is one of the best characters in the game due to his recovery buff and the lack of any "gay" things (besides Kirby's chainthrow I guess) to hinder him, and due to his ability to hit hard pretty easily. I think most of us also agree Falco, Pikachu, and Peach are among the best characters in the game, but there are plenty of characters who stand a fair chance at winning against them.

Ganon still probably has some retardedly bad matchups, but he works due to F-tilt super armor frames, invincible wizkick (still a very unsafe move, but it beats EVERYTHING), F-air autocancel, and the other random stuff that he had in BBrawl1. Ike would be bad except his N-air was made retardedly good by virtue of it's extremely generous IASA frames (which I believe needs a tonedown in exchange for a different buff).

JOE and I think Bowser still needs a buff to recovery, since it's the real thing that unbalances his matchups, and he suggested that either we eliminate the hard landing animation, or we allow him to cancel it with another Up-B. I played Link, G&W, and Ganon vs his Bowser, and in all three matchups, there would be random times I would screw up and get killed, but for 90% of the match he would get juggled and edgeguarded to like 120-130% before I killed him. As for the firebreath, I suggested the other thing that could be done is increasing the knockback of the move (adjust angle to make sure nobody gets gimped too easily).

I personally also believe Kirby needs a recovery buff for the purpose of helping his matchups against G&W and Metaknight. Thinkaman and I talked a long time ago about possibly letting Kirby ledge sweetspot with aerial hammer, a move that G&W and Metaknight have a reason to not challenge mindlessly.

I believe Lucas needs better throws to make up for his lack of really safe ways to get grabs. Link as well probably needs better throws as well, but is otherwise solid, especially with a slight recovery buff.

Some of the characters like Samus, Mario, ROB, Falco, and I think Link did recieve tonedowns on some powerful moves that they had in BBrawl 1. G&W and Marth received damage nerfs to important moves. More Jab combos properly link in this game.

tl;dr, BBrawl 2 is very well balanced. At most only 4ish characters really need help for some stupidly bad matchups, but otherwise fundamentally most of what needs to be in the game made it in.


JOE and I played some lolwifi and we saved some funny replays which I think are pretty good at demonstrating what new things characters can do. And I have to say one thing about Ganon on wifi...the wizkick on wifi is STUPIDLY broken LOL. It was already stupidly good in vBrawl wifi so now that it beats Marth's sword and other dumb stuff yeah....Ganon on wifi is like top tier LOL.

And the Yoshi mains absolutely have to play BBrawl 2 because I believe Yoshi is a really really good character.

I just need to get a life and find time to upload those replays...

thanks. and yeah, I see where you're coming from on most of these. how does MK stand now?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Mid, imo. Having a couple 40:60 MUs and given the fact most of his opponents already knows the matchup well, BBrawl is pretty hard for him.

 

[JOE!]

@A2:

4am and 4month absense of practice johns.....





(but the bowser landing / recovery fix still stands as the only thing pinning him down)


another thing, I think PT is a definite bad MU for MK now, as well as wolf now that he's harder to gimp, lack of "whorenado", etc...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Metaknight is still pretty good, I really only think he "obviously" is disadvantaged against...Falco, Snake, and Olimar (6/4 disadvantage at most, and he can pull out advantages on the right counterpicks). He is pretty limited in his ability to approach them and they can set up KOs on him more reliably than the other way around.

I don't think he really loses too many matchups by design, although being more reliant on gimps, F-smash, and Down-B for KOs is going to make his matchups in general more fair. I feel that BBrawl 2 is currently about as good of a transition as SF4 to SSF4. For the most part it's a very tame game competitively.

As for the Pokemon Trainer vs Metaknight, I could probably see the PT having slight advantage. Metaknight probably gives Ivysaur a lot of problems still, and if Charizard as well if he's forced to stick around for any purpose that isn't killing, but between Charizard and Squirtle, they're both going to kill him a lot faster than he can kill them. Unless of course he gimps them, which is a decent possibility in all three matchups.

By the way, there is a small glitch, and I don't know if it just applies to me, but the damage nerf to G&W's B-air first 4 hits doesn't seem to work. SO his B-air does 16 total damage.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Squirtle is a maybe, but he is still really fast and strong.
Charizard could be really hard to gimp: 3 jumps, SA on its UpB, one of the heaviest charaters.... That sounds pretty important.
They're hard, but I think neither is as bad as 40:60.

imo, MK's bad MUs in BBrawl could be DDD, DK, Bowser and other heavy characters just because of no Nado. Diddy was already pretty even and now it is probably bad for him; and Strong Hitters like Fox, GW or Capt. Falcon needs to be explored, since MK now has a lot of trouble killing them and he dies really early.

 

[Steeler]

if MK plays as slowly as possible (taking as long as possible to recover to the stage, etc), the matchup is probably slight MK advantage. squirtle can take on a MK 1v1 and greatly appreciates the nerfs to dsmash and shuttle loop, but efficient and slow play will force the PT to either switch or weaken its KO power to a level that is possibly even worse than MK's. the other two still obviously lose and rely on mistakes to really do anything notable. against an MK that plays PT like any other character, i could see it being near even. i'd probably see it as squirtle doing as much work as possible, ivysaur possibly getting skipped over depending on the stage, and charizard fighting a difficult battle of attrition since it should be difficult to KO (excluding gimps, which are legitimate on charizard) but also have a difficult time actually landing a KO move. ivysaur is not that bad once it's out of the low percent range, particularly on stages with platforms.

i think weakening tornado's priority would be a more interesting solution than we have now, because it's still just as effective as an anti-air and on shield; it just doesn't do as much damage now. it's still a very powerful defensive tool and you can't dismiss the move, even in its bbrawl form.

 

[A2ZOMG]

By the way, I want other people to check G&W's B-air damage on their copy of BBrawl, since on my version, he does 16 damage since the -1 damage on the first 4 hits isn't working.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

A2ZOMG, it's a spacing issue. If you space deep, it will do that much. If you space far, it will do less. In standard Brawl, the various hitboxes all hit with the same power.

Also, Thinkaman and I can only do so much. We made the game; we can't also be the cornerstones of the community for it. I mean, Nintendo didn't make smashboards...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ah thanks for clearing that up. I was confused for a moment.

 

[JOE!]

I need to pick a "main" again/start practicing....


anyone up for Bbrawl later tonite? (after like, 11:30 EST)

 

[A2ZOMG]

Maybe. I'll be on and off SWF, AiB, and the BBrawl chat. Leaving me messages at any of those places today will get my attention.

Double Post:

A random thought occurred to me that I or someone else could host an online BBrawl tournament just so that we would have something to keep away the boredom. Anyhow...

JOE and I think Bowser is probably the current worst character in the game. It boils down to the fact that he really can't get back down to the ground easily or safely against the majority of the cast. Thought Ike or Ganon was free to juggle (which they are significantly less so in BBrawl)? Well Bowser in BBrawl pretty much takes the cake for getting wrecked when tossed into the air. While Bowser did get a few power increases on some decent moves (while also losing his grab release shenanigans), his D-air, N-air, and DownB really don't do the trick for stopping people from juggling him for free. And while he's technically the heaviest character in the game, he's also one of the most easily comboed, and he has what is probably the worst recovery in the game.

And of course I mentioned it ages ago but this is a game where the majority of the cast, not just Bowser and other heavyweights, is able to score an early or decisive KO with relative ease. In such a game, weight really isn't going to be a huge factor for how long you survive as opposed to the fundamental ability to minimize risks either in recovery, juggling, getting comboed (which affects recovery options once you're past 100%), and poking safely, which are all things Bowser is fairly weak in. He has some decent grabs and some big damage moves which can be used as counter pokes, but those at best merely make him a glass cannon.

Ganon probably has the edge over Bowser since his tools cover more options for punishing common zoning strategies and killing people fast. He's pretty easily juggled, but can at least keep people honest with his Wizkick, which is both invincible and takes him downwards at an angle that can be hard for his opponent to cover. And while his recovery is of course bad, it's less easily punished compared to Bowser's.

At any rate, the more I think about it, I definitely would support Bowser being able to cancel his fortress landing lag into a grounded fortress, which in a sense would help Bowser's recovery, and more importantly give him another option for getting away from pressure as he lands. One of the things that makes Donkey Kong's Up-B so much better than Bowser's isn't necessarily the attack, but the fact it goes farther than Bowser's Up-B, and for that matter it is less laggy than Bowser's Up-B as well.

Bowser and Charizard's Firebreath I believe can be made less gimmicky by increasing the base knockback and setting the angle to like 60, which will more effectively help these moves become spacers.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I heard Bowser lives a bit too much, and that his Fsmash is VERY good in BBrawl.

imo, he's a lot of a high risk, high reward character. I mean, all of his spacing tools (Fair, Jab, Ftilt, Fsmash, even Fortress) got buffs, so whenever you screw it, it'll hurt, a lot.
Firebreath isn't the big deal, imo. It wasn't really MU important back on vBrawl, and I think it just isn't worth discussing it in BBrawl.

If anything, I'd just suggest some minor damage buffs, or add Bowser Bomber offensive gimmicks, since it's a really manly interesting move that could be looked into.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Bowser indeed has some good ground tools and spacers that can effectively shut down other poking strategies, but the thing I'm seeing is that in many matchups, he rarely gets to apply them after someone starts juggling/edgeguarding him efficiently. Things get especially bleak for Bowser once his damage goes past 100%, effectively eliminating most of his options on the edge which as a result leads to him getting edgetrapped and edgeguarded even more until he dies. In this situation, his huge weight is actually working against his survival by making him an easily comboed character, which as a result makes him incur low% damage very quickly until he's past 100% where his options are further limited.

 

[KrayzeeGuy]

I'm unsure if this has been asked before, but are the files in private\wii\title required? I'm trying to keep as much of my original SD data as possible.

If they are required, can I put them in along with my other files?

Thanks in advance for answering!

 

[Thinkaman]

Quick point; most the knockback added to BBrawl kill moves is exclusively growth, which scales linearly with weight. This is in Bowser's favor in terms of survivability.

That said, I agree with both Bowser's positioning as a (slightly) sub-par character and that juggling is a factor. I think I had this opinion before A2Z did!

I'm unsure if this has been asked before, but are the files in private\wii\title required? I'm trying to keep as much of my original SD data as possible.

I think those files might have been included by mistake, they should not be needed.

 

[JOE!]

the thing that makes me rage the most is that all of bowser's "back to earth" moves (Nair, Dair and Down B) are all BEATEN COMPLETLEY by Mario's Utilt....


a simple little uppercut >>>>>> 10,000 of spiny reptile slamming down at you.


....perhaps if there was someway to give Bowser Scaling Heavy Armor while he is airborne? this would essentially solve his juggle problems past a certain point, help him from being edgegaurded so easily (letting him keep the crap recovery), and make it more common for him to be grounded?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Mario has to be pretty incredibly on-point to actually anti-air you with a utilt. If Mario is honestly doing that to beat you, you can just mix up timings on Bowser Bomb and come out way ahead on risk-reward (since every hit makes up for 3-4 utilts). I'm also skeptical that Mario utilt beats a properly spaced dair cleanly regardless.

 

[JOE!]

the problem is that he can beat out the individual hit fast enough t just hit bowser out of the animation, knock him upwards, and go back to square 1.

it also hits him out of the descent of Bowser-bomb and is fast enough to recover from a miss before bowser lands


but the point isnt that mario is only using utilt for anti air, but the fact that MARIo's UTILT CAN BE USED AS ANTI-AIR AGAINST BOWSER

 

[A2ZOMG]

I dunno, I'm a dedicated Mario user of course, and I can say that U-tilt is a mixed bag, and there aren't many people or Mario mains for that matter who can implement it properly. Mario's damage per hit is pretty low, especially on his U-tilt (only 7% fresh in Brawl), and its lack of horizontal range means it can't be used as a generic spacer like other moves. Considering that it doesn't properly juggle at 0% on most of the cast, it's a move that Mario could use a buff on actually.

As I was trying to imply, I don't think many people know how to anti-air with Mario's U-tilt in the first place, which is something that basically you're only going to see from really experienced Mario users. I will state that I do find it to be a solid anti-air, as it consistently beats Luigi's N-air, a move that is considered to be one of the best juggle breakers in the game. It also usually beats most of Wario's aerials as well. The hitbox also lasts about 7-8 frames, which is pretty long making it a good move for catching people out of dodges.

 

[prOAPC]

i play BBrawl last saturday :D and from now on, we are going to play it all weekends, maybe not for tourneys, but for friendlies

I Love the new Lucas :D He's PK Fire is too powerful now! Also, Jigglypuff improved a lot! Ganondorf and Bowser are soo funny with their super and heavy armor, i even lost to a Ganondorf once! lol
What i didn't link: Toon Link smashes, i didn't feel them as reliave as they told me, and looks like the Dsmash Gimp "OHKO" won't work

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The idea is that the first hits always lead into the second. With fsmash, this means if you do fsmash hit 2 ASAP it should pretty much always hit (were you seeing otherwise?). With dsmash, that is actually a "nerf" in a way since the gimmick "OHKO" is actually just making the second hit whiff (the first hit has ridiculous properties), but it all around makes TL more well rounded and is less bad than fsmash being a reliable tool is good.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah you know I almost forgot Jiggs existed, but that character is pretty legit and it's a shame most people are sleeping on her.

And as for Ganon, so his worst matchups are like:

Mario
Ice Climbers
Peach
Jiggs

The way Mario is built in general is pretty solid for taking down Ganon. He outmaneuvers Ganon, has better pokes, can camp Ganon with relative safety, and he has a pretty easy time either killing or gimping Ganon. His only weakness in the matchup is being somewhat easy for Ganon to gimp, but he can play a very passive aggressive playstyle that Ganon doesn't have too many options for punishing easily, but can result in Ganon getting punished fairly hard.

The Ice Climbers actually limit most of Ganon's options automatically through desynched Ice Blocks. I swear my CPU ICs actually did this to me. Ganon can't wizkick through this since the window between Ice Blocks is too narrow. So basically he has to jump over Ice Blocks, which unfortunately probably means he gets anti-aired a lot. He has one other option to kinda bide time against Ice Blocks. His U-tilt wind damage actually turns around Ice Blocks in this game (but not vBrawl). At any rate, this matchup by design is probably fated to be stupidly hard for Ganon.

Peach like Mario can very effectively play the passive aggressive playstyle and space AND simultaneously camp in a way that is hard for Ganon to punish, and she has some good tools for edgeguarding Ganon as well that can result in a gimp. Ganon's F-air buff and to a lesser extent his more powerful D-smash (the 2nd hit which makes a pretty good anti-air) sorta makes up for the matchup to an extent, but provided the Peach knows the matchup, it shouldn't be unexpected. And on the ground Peach still is going to give Ganon problems with her excellent 2 frame Jab.

Surprised that Jiggs dominates Ganon? This is the most deceptively horrible matchup in the game, and I would consider Jiggs vs Ganon in vBrawl a harder matchup than Wario vs Ganon. Aside from the ICs, the bad matchups I'm citing are characters who play a good spacing game that can be very passive aggressive or campy when necessary, and specifically is able to easily bypass Ganon's anti-horizontal zoning, and those characters on top of it also have good tools for gimping Ganon as well. Jiggs actually does this just about perfectly. Ganon really can't approach Jiggs very well since Jiggs has the mobility to retreat, bait, and punish all in one floaty jump. And she actually can punish Ganon extremely hard. Her wall of pain is very good on Ganon especially since his jump doesn't take him very high, and because Ganon's F-air has noteable startup. Once she combos Ganon offstage, it's not too hard for her to gimp him with a well-placed hit from virtually any other aerial (D-air is especially effective at snuffing Ganon's Up-B), especially if Ganon wastes his midair jump. And while it doesn't take too many hits for Ganon to KO Jiggs, landing the right hits on Jiggs is extremely difficult. Ganon doesn't really have the mobility to space, which is unfortunate since he really can't beat Pound without good spacing (or bad spacing on Jigg's part).

Those matchups I would put around 65/35 out of Ganon's favor, so he's probably not going to win them in a serious tournament. Otherwise I don't think he suffers from any matchups that bad, and I wouldn't doubt that he has a few slightly advantageous matchups.

 

[Lokee]

I know this is not an What can We give him Affair at this point but Ill throw in some ideas for Bowser

For Recovery
Reduce ending landing lag of Air Fortress by Making it cancel able into grounded Fortress like many have been saying

Or a more dramatic idea. Perhaps make Bowser's Nair give an aerial boost similar to what was given to Ivy's Dair. And many some SA on its startup

Another idea is making it so with Bowser does his aerial Fortress he goes into a normal fall animation but cant do his UpB again like GameandWatch or Sonic

Against Juggling
Maybe give Down B SA while going down as the move has terrible priority and make it so you can cancel the landing lag with a Fortress as well making it a Get To The Ground Quick move.

Also Id thought Ganon vs Jiggs would be about Even. I mean wasnt she one of his better matchups in vbrawl.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Jiggs is actually a really awful matchup for Ganon in vBrawl and nobody admits it. I would easily consider her a worse matchup than Wario in vBrawl, and this is assuming that Wario knows about the chaingrab and other stuff he has in the matchup. Ganon has an extremely hard time walling Jiggs or approaching her and gets punished severely for making a mistake in that matchup that can result in him getting gimped, and landing a kill or gimp on her is very difficult. Against Wario, Ganon actually can somewhat wall Wario and has GR F-smash and something of an ability to edgeguard Wario, and Wario doesn't gimp Ganon nearly as hard as Jiggs.