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Social Bair is underpowered - Puff Social/Disc Thread
- Thread starter Krynxe
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FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
That's probably your best substitute. I'd start by aiming bairs trying to be as close as possible without hitting, as opposed to connecting on purpose and then trying to get farther away. Then you know that when you hit, you are erring on the side of staying farther away.
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FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
I always sh into it. Be faster with the sh, because considering Puff's walking speed and the fact that it takes a bit to walk through an opponent, I think sh ought to be faster than walking anyways.
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FrozenLight
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2014
- Messages
- 10
How do I learn gimmicks?
I got my Puff on a basic level that's pretty alright. Yet I notice other Puff players with obviously worse movement, punishgame, oos game, edgeguards and/or even a worse mindset placing better than me consistently. This category of Puff players plays Puff only and they have had more time to gather experience. Thus they gathered more Puff gimmicks (which is fully respectable don't get me wrong) that they noticed to work over the time.
I find it very hard to find such tricks and to implement them by watching YouTube sets instead of finding them yourself. Is there something to look out for on certain things? Do I have to analyze videos and replay specific scenes all the time, because it's so deep in the details? Is there some list for good ones that I didn't find yet?
Thanks in advance!
I got my Puff on a basic level that's pretty alright. Yet I notice other Puff players with obviously worse movement, punishgame, oos game, edgeguards and/or even a worse mindset placing better than me consistently. This category of Puff players plays Puff only and they have had more time to gather experience. Thus they gathered more Puff gimmicks (which is fully respectable don't get me wrong) that they noticed to work over the time.
I find it very hard to find such tricks and to implement them by watching YouTube sets instead of finding them yourself. Is there something to look out for on certain things? Do I have to analyze videos and replay specific scenes all the time, because it's so deep in the details? Is there some list for good ones that I didn't find yet?
Thanks in advance!
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that maybe their movement, punishes, etc. are better than you think. Fox mains say basically the same thing when they get outplaced by less flashy Foxes. The advice I always give them is to stop overthinking the situation and stop defaulting to super-techskill-intensive strategies.
You shouldn't be using strategies that are 'good,' you should be using strategies that work, whether they are 'good' on paper or not. That is probably why those Puffs are doing better than you despite seeming worse.
When you get to the next level, you'll be seeing things that are currently invisible to you. In the meantime, just remember never to respect your opponent until they force you to respect them.
Gimmicks isn't the right word for things you can't do.
Just autocancel nair.
So... Drill -> Grab/Usmash/Rest...
This is the thing that I need to master to get my next level up in my game. I struggle to pull this off a lot. Lcanceling it is not enough, you need to fastfall at the right moment to make it work. I heard the flip is only need if you want to go for the rest and otherwise it should always lead into a grab or usmash. Being able to confirm into a grab with a drill would really really step up my game as otherwise going for the grabs as Puff is risky and requires conditioning your opponent to shield.
Just how exactly is this performed and if I do it against a CPU, how will I know I got it right?
This is the thing that I need to master to get my next level up in my game. I struggle to pull this off a lot. Lcanceling it is not enough, you need to fastfall at the right moment to make it work. I heard the flip is only need if you want to go for the rest and otherwise it should always lead into a grab or usmash. Being able to confirm into a grab with a drill would really really step up my game as otherwise going for the grabs as Puff is risky and requires conditioning your opponent to shield.
Just how exactly is this performed and if I do it against a CPU, how will I know I got it right?
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
20XX pack is the only way I know of to really know if you got that right against a CPU. The pack can make your opponent flash purple while they are in stun and make you flash red if you miss the L-cancel.
If you don't have the 20XX pack, we need to find another move that comes out on frames 7-8 and see if Training Mode registers your l-canceled dair -> [that move] as a combo. I don't think grabs register as a combo, but I'm not 100% sure on that. Of course, this is problematic in that dair is tougher without the C-stick, but it still might be the best option.
If grab doesn't work, then utilt comes out on frame 8, but you would have to land so that they are behind you or else it might won't connect.
Usmash comes out frame 7 and dsmash comes out frame 9, but are difficult without the C-stick.
Ftilt comes out frame 6 which means it is 1 frame easier to combo than the grab would be. But if that combos then that means they would only possibly have 1 frame to do something about the grab (which isn't enough time for anything but shine, and their timing has to be frame-precise.).
Jab comes out frame 5, so if it combos then they would only possibly have 2 frames to do something about the grab, and even buffered roll I think doesn't grant invinc within two frames.
Side-Note #1: I don't think the fastfall is necessary, strictly speaking the only thing that matters is the time between the last hit by the dair (meaning, the last one before you land, not the last hit period) and you actually landing. Fastfalling only helps if you aren't already timing it so the last hitbox comes out during the last possible frames.
Side Note #2: I have heard that Training Mode isn't totally accurate when it comes to recognizing a true combo move. I don't know about that, personally, but I've never legit tested it.
Good stuff. Thanks a lot. It was really helpful. I managed to pull off drillgrabs and usmashes with about 50% consistency today. I am slowly getting there. Being able to combo into a grab and reliably kill floaties with usmash is amazing. After I master it I'll learn to rest out of it. Finally making some solid progress with Puff!
The next thing would be to find out when to use drill...
The next thing would be to find out when to use drill...
Keblerelf
Smash Ace
drill-->ftilt/dash attack is next level.
I think drill is her best option for ppl recovering from below. it goes through samus upb!
I also think dtilt has potential to be incorporated somewhere. It hits the other person at a sort of spike angle when you hit them off stage and on stage it makes them slide away decently far. Need to experiment more though.
I think drill is her best option for ppl recovering from below. it goes through samus upb!
I also think dtilt has potential to be incorporated somewhere. It hits the other person at a sort of spike angle when you hit them off stage and on stage it makes them slide away decently far. Need to experiment more though.
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The Prince L
Smash Apprentice
I was a Puff main for years, and during some months I stopped playing him because I was bored of him.
Then I watched a combo video from The King (Rest In Peace, not Rollout lol) and I started playing Puff again.
Damn, this character is so satisfying. Jigglypuff forever.
Then I watched a combo video from The King (Rest In Peace, not Rollout lol) and I started playing Puff again.
Damn, this character is so satisfying. Jigglypuff forever.
Jobes
Smash Apprentice
Hey, puffs!
I got a chance to play on stream yesterday and was hoping I could get some tips from better players. I played against two newer players, and one player who is a bit above my level, which is the main one I'd like analyzed, but all of them would be helpful.
Against the slightly better player:
http://www.twitch.tv/mnsmash/b/631062739?t=14m30s
Against newer players:
http://www.twitch.tv/mnsmash/b/631006101?t=1h30m45s
http://www.twitch.tv/mnsmash/b/631062739?t=6m45s
Thanks guys!
I got a chance to play on stream yesterday and was hoping I could get some tips from better players. I played against two newer players, and one player who is a bit above my level, which is the main one I'd like analyzed, but all of them would be helpful.
Against the slightly better player:
http://www.twitch.tv/mnsmash/b/631062739?t=14m30s
Against newer players:
http://www.twitch.tv/mnsmash/b/631006101?t=1h30m45s
http://www.twitch.tv/mnsmash/b/631062739?t=6m45s
Thanks guys!
gmBottles
Fun Haver
So, baiting grabs. How do you guys like to go about doing this? Not necessarily just against spacies for upthrow rest, but against the whole cast. If I'm playing somebody who likes to rush in, I'll camp by the ledge and when they approach try to grab, back throw and gimp.
Keblerelf
Smash Ace
if you know they are coming at you, then wd back and grab.
Or you can try to grab them first. Puff's grab outranges a bunch of characters.http://clashtournaments.com/mew2kings-melee-information-and-discoveries/#58
Or you can try to grab them first. Puff's grab outranges a bunch of characters.http://clashtournaments.com/mew2kings-melee-information-and-discoveries/#58
Low5_
Smash Apprentice
Honestly, a couple tweaks in your game and you'd be 2 and 3 stocking him. There are a few things about the way you edge guard that I'd change. (This is only from watching the "slightly better player"). For example in a lot of cases when you pop a fox or falco off stage with a Fair, you try and catch the initial Side-B, even if you're a little late (15:00). If you don't have the time, a good option is do a full hop towards them, fade back to the ground and rest where their side-B lands. You basically scare them into panic Side-B but jumping towards them, and you just sit and wait for them to land on top of you.
Also, another thing that starting becoming predictable is when you are trying to come back to the stage right after that missed edge-guard 15:05-15:19 You used a Dair to cover you every time. Normally it's not a bad option as a mixup, but it trades with all of falco's (And fox's) kill moves and if he sees it coming at all it's very likely you won't hit him at all. Your best bet is when coming from the side is to either get down by weaving through the platforms with wavelands, or grabbing edge and using the invincibility to get back to neutral rather than throwing out a hitbox.
After that (15:24-15:35) I noticed twice in a row where you were offstage and you weren't conserving your jumps. I'm going to take a wild guess and say ballsy foxes shine-spike you occasionally? Know the magnet distance puff has to the ledge and pound in between jumps when you have time (If you feel unsafe, rising pound away from stage, and jump back towards).
Overall, first game I think you outplayed him and just missed a couple edge-guards/rest opportunities. Your neutral game isn't bad at all, just be sure to keep moving, especially right after you land (when you're most vulnerable). Edge cancel to refresh your jumps if you can, it's a lot safer, and can trip up your opponent. Honestly I think most of your mistakes the second game looked like nerves after losing the first, so I'm not going to comment on those things. If you want to talk any more about puff in general shoot me a message.
Jobes
Smash Apprentice
Thanks a bunch. Yeah, watching it I noticed that edgeguarding was an obvious issue, and that I was dairing too much. I have recently been practicing dair>grab and dair>usmash etc., so I'd imagine that contributed to the frequency of it. I plan to mix in a lot more variety in aerials.
Also, thanks for the specific ideas in edgeguarding like baiting panic-phantasms. Covering the phantasm is something I'll need practice on in general, since I haven't had any training partners who main spacies so my main experience is computers . I'll get plenty more experience as tourneys pop up, but this was only my second for Melee. I'll be sure to message you about puff things in the future too.
Low5_
Smash Apprentice
Of course! I found myself Dair-ing quite frequently as I was learning Dair --> grab as well. Once you get a feel for the spacing of fox and falcos Side-B distance it becomes relatively easy. I'm also always open to critique videos, I think it helps me as a player as well.
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FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
I've only looked at the match vs. the better player thus far. I wouldn't go so far as to say you outplayed him in game 1, but I will say that a couple good edgeguards would have given you that W. There are other problems in your game, but right now tightening up your edgeguards is going to give you the maximum reward for time spent.
The main problem I saw with your edgeguards was that you committed too early. That is, you used moves that committed to covering one option before you had confirmation that he was going for that option. Simply put, be more patient. Puff's edgeguards are so good that you shouldn't have to predict anything, but be able to react.
If you get offstage before his hitstun wears off, you have all the time in the world to react to his recovery and then use the correct move to cover it.
If you can't get offstage that fast, remember that you have onstage options too. Reacting with an onstage option is still better than predicting with an offstage option. Ledgehog is good. If you think they won't sweetspot, even stuff like dash attack, fsmash, dsmash can work too.
If you can't get near the ledge that fast, I just let them take the ledge and put my energies into keeping them from getting onstage. It's not worth putting yourself on the wrong end of an edgeguard.
Anyways, my advice is devote all your attention to improving your edgeguarding, because you will see an enormous return on the time invested, and then get back to us with another video so we can help you out on other things.
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Jobes
Smash Apprentice
Thanks a bunch. Yeah, edgeguarding is the huge focus right now, I can't wait to get to another tournament with it in mind and consciously work on fixing them. Just having watched my matches and hearing critique on my edgeguards from both of you guys, myself, and the commentators has made me very aware, and I think all of that being hammered into my head will definitely make me think more critically about my edgeguards rather than autopiloting. I'll see if I can get lucky enough to play on stream again and I'll surely be back with more videos if that's the case.
Like I said, that was only my second Melee tournament so hopefully my game in general will get more polished by the next time I'm able to post.
Low5_
Smash Apprentice
Good luck! Let me know how it goes!
Synnett
Alligator Lord
Am I the only one that finds rollout to be useful?
When I'm thrown out of the stage, and the other guy is safeguarding, I rollout over his head and land on the stage. It works well on Final Destination. You can also grab the ledge with it, but it's dangerous because you can either bounce off or the guy jumps in front of you and you fall down. If you go over him, if he get hit, you can land on the stage.
Or when Falco/Fox uses his recovery move, charge your rollout and just before he lands, let it go. It's an instant KO he cannot avoid.
But yea, it's a dangerous move.
When I'm thrown out of the stage, and the other guy is safeguarding, I rollout over his head and land on the stage. It works well on Final Destination. You can also grab the ledge with it, but it's dangerous because you can either bounce off or the guy jumps in front of you and you fall down. If you go over him, if he get hit, you can land on the stage.
Or when Falco/Fox uses his recovery move, charge your rollout and just before he lands, let it go. It's an instant KO he cannot avoid.
But yea, it's a dangerous move.
Maniclysane
Smash Lord
If you hard read a missed tech on FD it's good. The hitbox is just bad on it and they'll hit you out of the air if they're not bad.
Better to not commit to the rollout when Fox/Falco are recovering and just reposition.
Better to not commit to the rollout when Fox/Falco are recovering and just reposition.
Massive
Smash Champion
Rollout is only ok on FD.
It is terrible for recovery because it is both un-needed (pound will get the same distance with better height), and dangerous (they just need to get in the way and you're dead). Aerial rollout knocks the opponent straight up, and doesn't kill until high %.
The only time it is a viable strategy is against ICs, because it will almost always hit nana and can KO her at low %s. It is fun to style on scrubs with, but beyond that, if you use it in a serious match for anything other than the SUPRISE tech-chase, you are going to get punished almost as hard as if you missed a rest.
It is terrible for recovery because it is both un-needed (pound will get the same distance with better height), and dangerous (they just need to get in the way and you're dead). Aerial rollout knocks the opponent straight up, and doesn't kill until high %.
The only time it is a viable strategy is against ICs, because it will almost always hit nana and can KO her at low %s. It is fun to style on scrubs with, but beyond that, if you use it in a serious match for anything other than the SUPRISE tech-chase, you are going to get punished almost as hard as if you missed a rest.
Arayvenn
Smash Rookie
Can I ask what happened to the Skype group? :C Definitely something I'm interested in.
gmBottles
Fun Haver
Skype group is sort of inactive but its still a thing. I run that, I made a thread for it, did you post in that? I'll add you in.
ilikcereal101
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2015
- Messages
- 72
is claw grip a thing for puff? If so I can't find anything that's shows how to do claw grip, so how do I do it? (I am left handed so it may be harder but I'm sure I'll get it with practice
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It is a thing, for sure. I personally recommend switching between claw and standard grip. Claw in the air, standard on the ground. Puff is in the air a lot, and it makes it easy to aerial one direction and move the other direction, as you have your left thumb on control stick and right thumb on c-stick. Index finger on Y for jumping. Note that you do not need Z or R in the air. To do a nair, press A. It does take a little practice, but gives great air control.
Note that the downside of standard grip is that you have to jump with control stick (which interferes with left/right movement), use control stick for aerial attack directions (also interferes with left/right movement), or constantly move your thumb between Y and the c-stick (slow). Claw lets you avoid all these problems.
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ilikcereal101
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2015
- Messages
- 72
Wow this explanation was amazing thanks so much
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
For the record, HBox uses Z for aerials and he's pretty good at this game.
To be clear, my point is not that Z is the best. It's that the way you hold your controller (provided you aren't being completely stupid about it) is not that important of an aspect of this game. My personal experience might not count for much, but I've used three different methods of holding the controller throughout my Smash career in an effort to improve my performance and it had no noticeable effect. Just hold it whatever way is comfortable for you.
To be clear, my point is not that Z is the best. It's that the way you hold your controller (provided you aren't being completely stupid about it) is not that important of an aspect of this game. My personal experience might not count for much, but I've used three different methods of holding the controller throughout my Smash career in an effort to improve my performance and it had no noticeable effect. Just hold it whatever way is comfortable for you.
ilikcereal101
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2015
- Messages
- 72
You guys know any WOP set ups?
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
Improved your play or improved your results? I'm just saying, if it didn't improve your results, I'm gonna have to dispute that it significantly improved your play.
squible2
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2013
- Messages
- 36
Switching to claw improved my results. There really is no way to easily do retreating fairs or approaching fairs with regular grip. It also allows you do to upairs while moving at max speed in one direction. I find it gives you significantly better control in the air.
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FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
Disagree. You can prevent Puff from turning around in the air by doing your aerial quickly enough after the jump. Makes fairs very easy, even with the C-stick. (tho I have to question how many situations a retreating fair would actually be superior to a well-timed retreating bair.)
C-stick does, too.
One grip style I experimented with was to put the bottom part of my thumb on top of the C-stick, which reduces the time between hitting Y and using the C-stick to zero. Seems to me that would give all the same advantages as claw except it allows you to hit Z without changing your grip. Yet because I was aware of how to prevent aerial turnaround, it really made no difference between standard grip on the ground/dual-sticking in the air aside from being slightly less comfortable. Again, HBox uses Z for aerials and he's better than all y'all claw grippers.
squible2
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2013
- Messages
- 36
It's true that if you are fast enough, you don't need claw grip. However, I have much more consistency using claw grip than regular grip. I don't have to move my thumb across the entire controller in a few frames.
Especially for upair, I find doing them frame perfect without claw to be nearly impossible. If you use up on the control stick plus a, you can't keep horizontal momentum and you might accidentally jump again. If you try and use your thumb for x/y and up for the cstick, you have to scoop your thumb around the cstick and push up in a few frames. This motion in particular seems way too difficult and can be solved with claw grip.
I think even the most precise puff aerial tech requires less hand movement than every day fox stuff, so you can get away with sub-optimal hand positions. I have personally found claw the easiest way to improve the precision of my aerials. When I claw, I use a with my thumb for nair, which seems fine, but I guess that is a fast far thumb movement that could go wrong.
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Massive
Smash Champion
I have been heavily considering moving to claw.
I use x to jump, which is somewhat limiting in regards to what aerials I can use quickly, I feel like claw for airborne puff is probably optimal, especially if you can keep another finger on Z for L-cancels and whatnot.
I use x to jump, which is somewhat limiting in regards to what aerials I can use quickly, I feel like claw for airborne puff is probably optimal, especially if you can keep another finger on Z for L-cancels and whatnot.
ilikcereal101
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2015
- Messages
- 72
Are you suppose to use x or y when using claw or does it even matter?