Social Bair is underpowered - Puff Social/Disc Thread

[CrazyCupofJoe]

What should I practice a lot by myself? I play Sheik as a main but looking to pick up Jiggs as a secondary. I can Shffl effectively and beat up on level 1 computers but other than that Im not sure what to practice. Tips?

 

[the wizard howl]

same as any other character, make sure that you can do all the tech that you need (hardest for puff is probably linking drill to grab every time, puff isn't all that technical), brainstorm/test solutions to MU problems, make sure that your movement is fluid and extremely accurate.
Practice for the sake of practice is the fastest way to make bad habits (i.e. autopilot beating up cpus). Know exactly what you're trying to accomplish/learn and focus hard on that and only that. If you don't know what you need to practice then don't and watch vids with a notebook until you do.

 

[Fortune]

Practice for the sake of practice is the fastest way to make bad habits (i.e. autopilot beating up cpus). Know exactly what you're trying to accomplish/learn and focus hard on that and only that. If you don't know what you need to practice then don't and watch vids with a notebook until you do.

repeating this [especially the bold text] because i think it's so important.

 

[Devil Ray]

any thoughts on jiggs vs icies? ppl say that jiggs wins, but i don't see it. as long as the icies shield properly, i don't see how jiggs wins. i think it's either close or slightly in icies favor.

 

[Massive]

The thing about ICs is that they can't both shield properly.

Nana is always slightly behind Popo's reactions. Popo will do something OoS and nana will do it too, but after the safe frames are over so things like bair or pound can clip her out of shield and let you punish/kill. You can even toss out Rollout on them and usually hit nana (not recommended, but funny).

IC recovery is also predictable and laggy, you can easily deal with it with standard WoP tactics.

But holy crap, don't get grabbed (aka don't land in lag frames).

 

[Gamer_Mason]

I'm having some trouble with the Fox mu, and I don't mean low level foxes, I mean Eggz&People-Who-Can-Beat-Eggz level players. They're really good at reading shield habits and I feel pressured into playing on the ground a lot. Shield grabbing them is inadvisable, it's pretty tough. A specific scenario I have trouble with is when they're dash dancing on the ground, they either want to grab or usmash, and if I try to shield usmash I'm usually just grabbed.

The fox in this video is currently third on the Oregon PR and has taken sets off Eggz. I didn't enter this set with expectation to win so I used game 1 to practice jab resetting a bit (also some part of me was pleading for a star ko). I was bad at it before this set but doing it in action I think I'm consistent now.
http://youtu.be/qvInjPRBfng
Strictly speaking I don't think I played too badly here? I made some questionable decisions for sure but the loss goes beyond those. But that's why I'm asking for advice, it's difficult to see what I need to tighten or change, or how I can improve at reading his movements, and I think at this point I would really benefit from an outside perspective.

 

[\/entus]

Hello, I am an aspiring Jigglypuff player and I have a couple of questions.

What is it that sets Hungrybox from other Jigglypuff players? There doesn't seem to be many intermediate Jigglypuff players that are what you could call demi-gods (maybe S0ft?)

Is there a guide on these forums for crouching? I am trying to incorporate it into my game but I am finding difficulty learning when it is appropriate to use it.

Thank you so much in advance

 

[-LzR-]

Jigglypuff is retardedly hard to play well. Some characters can kill her so early it's not even funny. You have to be on top of your game and still try to land those rests in high pressure games. For now it seems only HBox has overcome these and reached a toplevel Puff. There would probably be more but you know how the common opinion about Puff is. Not too popular, especially not with Fox being the hardest counter.

 

[the wizard howl]

It is surprisingly difficult not to let any brain space get taken up by "what happens if I miss this free rest?" in tournament. I know I have to work on that...

 

[-LzR-]

It is surprisingly difficult not to let any brain space get taken up by "what happens if I miss this free rest?" in tournament. I know I have to work on that...

I fixed this by playing friendlies with the mindset that I will go for the rest whenever there is an opportunity for it. Not sure if you can chase them on the platform after Dthrow? Try to rest anyways, even if you miss it's better that you try.

Because of this I landed a few rests without consciously thinking about it in the last tournament. I just hit an upair and before I realized my opponent was dead and Puff was asleep.

 

[gmBottles]

I fixed this by playing friendlies with the mindset that I will go for the rest whenever there is an opportunity for it. Not sure if you can chase them on the platform after Dthrow? Try to rest anyways, even if you miss it's better that you try.

Because of this I landed a few rests without consciously thinking about it in the last tournament. I just hit an upair and before I realized my opponent was dead and Puff was asleep.

This can be very rewarding. However, if you do end up missing, that could be a stock gone. I usually try to only go for the rest if I know it can hit, or if I know that I am safe enough to take a punish.

 

[CASHMONEYDOLLABILLS]

What should I practice a lot by myself? I play Sheik as a main but looking to pick up Jiggs as a secondary. I can Shffl effectively and beat up on level 1 computers but other than that Im not sure what to practice. Tips?

practicing alone against CPU is not so great, if you want to do it, get 20xx hack pack which is very useful to train puff with imo. You can turn on the colors option in the debug menu, and when beating up on low level cpu's you will be able to see when they are in hitstun, which therefore allows you to learn combos into rest and helps your combo game in general. Try to hit with a move that puts them in stun long enough for you to rest them.

CPU's in 20xx also have Random DI and random teching , which is a huge plus because you get used to different DI's from your throws, which are very important in Puff's game. You can also make your hitbox visible, which helps with spacing your aerials.

I am a low level puff though, but I have seen tremendous improvements in my Puff since grabbing the 20xx hack pack. Do recommend.

 

[Maniclysane]

Anyone have any good examples of Puff vs Falcon? Lost $5 in a mm that I don't wanna lose again. Falcon is one of my biggest trouble matchups and I really have no idea where to start. I can link to the video when the guy uploads it.

 

[Fortune]

IS tHA T THE JET!?!?!?
I'll critique it when the vid is up. Just make sure you post again instead of editing your post, so that I get a notification.

 

[Maniclysane]

The one and only

 

[FerrishTheFish]

The one and only

I play this MU from the Falcon side all the time (because I CP Falcon vs. Puff), so I think I can give you a few pointers from that perspective.

Jank was landing his jank when you were on plats or floating around throwing out aerials. Falcon can practically spam uair against any floaty that is above him and trade or win, but he has a much harder time spacing when Puff is on the ground crouching. Basically his only approach options vs. crouching Puff are stomp and knee (which you can shield on reaction). On the other hand, Puff can wavedash around while crouching and still threaten sh bair from the ground.

Falcon can punish missed Rests pretty hard even if you are at low%. Jank didn't seem to know this, but if Puff misses a Rest and is below about 10%, stomp -> dthrow -> knee -> knee is a true combo (according to Training Mode, at least) and it can 4HKO on Yoshi's and Pokemon. So you shouldn't Rest unless you have a better reason than you think it's safe if you miss.

You definitely do not want to be L-canceling any aerials in this MU, and definitely not in front of his shield. If he's shielding and you're too low to autocancel, just empty land and grab or empty land and crouch. He still can't do anything to crouching Puff next to his shield except stomp, but you get a free Rest if he tries to grab.

Tekk (the guy who wrote the Falcon guide in Mahone's thread) says you shouldn't go offstage to edgeguard Falcon, but I don't see why not. I would try to hit him out of his upB startup (bair at low%, but past 50% or so fair probably works better). If you miss, turn around and Pound him or take the ledge and Rest him when he lands onstage. Even if he gets back, you got some damage in there. Worst-case scenario (unless you're at high%) is you get hit by the upB, get all your jumps back, and get a free aerial afterward. Best-case scenario is you land the magic bthrow -> bair x2 and he dies. The risk-reward favors you a lot compared to waiting onstage and trying to bair him as he comes back.

That's about all I got.

 

[-LzR-]

Edgeguarding Falcon is so easy. Just FF Fair when he is close. If you mistime it and get hit by upB, tech and get a free Fair anyways.

 

[the wizard howl]

my favorite way to edgeguard falcon is to just keep getting grabbed by his upB over and over until he dies

 

[Fortune]

Edgeguarding Falcon is so easy. Just FF Fair when he is close. If you mistime it and get hit by upB, tech and get a free Fair anyways.

this

My critique:

a lot of people dont do this but i like to dair shields to wear them down since dair is so safe. since falcon is tall this can get his shield to a size where it is very pokable.

use autocancel nair more. you had a successful one at 27 seconds but didnt follow up. [should have grabbed]

need more upthrows. you can't usually combo into rest but you can jump gimp falcon. this is where you jump up air after your up throw and falcon HAS to jump away to avoid it. you don't even need to up air if you don't want to. just jumping at him will make him jump. having falcon above you with no jumps is good.

you got a pound at 3:05 that should have been converted directly into a rest.

3:25. you hit up air up tilt. a lot of times people will try to tech after the up air, but then will get hit by the tilt. this means they can't tech for [i think] 40 frames, since they pressed L/R without a successful tech. So when falcon lands after your tilt, you should kind of expect him to miss the tech. better players will see these tech traps and avoid them but most players will not. so you should have just landed next to him for a jab reset. even if he does get the tech, you're almost covering the options by just landing next to him. fsmash would hit the rolls in this situation, hitting the roll away tech option because he was near the ledge.

3:44 people always shield like this after they do an airdodge and you are really close to them. just tomahawk grab.

4:55 when falcon does this double dair thing always be ready to tech the second dair. good players will punish u super hard for missing that tech.

add in more tomahawk grab. example: could have worked at 5:00 instead of the uair

6;08 don't just assume this rest will always work. you have to look and react to where falcon goes.

6:16 dash attack is really good at punishing people who jump back on stage with their DJ, you could have punished this knee in endlag with a dash attack. it would have worked even if he faded back to the ledge since the hitbox extends over the ledge.

 

[Maniclysane]

Thanks guys. I'll see you at Sypher's or Xanadu, Fortune.

EDIT: How does Hbox do an immediate turn around crouch out of dash here?

 

[tauKhan]

EDIT: How does Hbox do an immediate turn around crouch out of dash here?

He doesn't, that's smash turn (i.e. pivot) wd (at 0:21)

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Pivot wd back is really good. I've done that with all of my mains since I started playing. Sooo many free grabs.

 

[Fortune]

How does Hbox do an immediate turn around crouch out of dash here?

It looks to me like hbox just smashes left and then lets go of it immediately to start the dash animation and have it stop as soon as possible. when it stops, he just turns around and wavedashes. As far as I can tell, this is what is happening.

 

[tauKhan]

It looks to me like hbox just smashes left and then lets go of it immediately to start the dash animation and have it stop as soon as possible. when it stops, he just turns around and wavedashes. As far as I can tell, this is what is happening.

The turn happens way too fast for him to be waiting for dash to end: notice that at 7:42:12 hbox hasn't started his dash yet, and at 7:41:89 his already turned and in jumpsquat. So hbox dashed to left at most for 14 frames, while jigglypuffs dash lasts for 23. So it's just dash -> smash turn -> wd.

Hbox probably did release the stick to avoid running though, or else he would've had to do frame perfect (or almost) dash to right since run starts at frame 12 if you still hold stick.

 

[Karnu]

Hello everyone
Went to my first melee tournament and placed 7th! It was a nice change from Brawl to be honest, will be practising more for the future!

 

[Bieber]

k **** marth

i need your guys's help on getting the exact di to get out of f-throw wavedash tippered f-smash

i've always heard "di down" but in kadano's writeup on frame application over on the marth boards (http://smashboards.com/threads/kadano’s-perfect-marth-class—advanced-frame-data-application.337035/) there's this handy little image:

which basically says that to get out of fthrow fsmash i have to DI up and in. in my brain's melee simulator this makes no sense but it's a fancy looking image and i'm hesitant to argue with it.

anyone with experience in the marth matchup wanna chime in? mahone??


oh and merry christmas puff-buds

 

[Mahone]

i will say that when i try that i do in fact get FJ daired consistently by pp, im assuming on reaction, so i always do the di that requires them to pivot, but if ur playing someone who consistenly pivots, i guess it just comes down to what u think they'll mess up the most

 

[S0FT]

Oh wow the jiggs boards are still active.

Sort of

 

[Celerity668]

What do you guys think of Rollout? I find on FD it can really make your opponent struggle. You don't have to hit them, just force them into an awkward position. Sometimes you get the free kill and it's great for slowing the game down.

 

[Fortune]

Any good player will just wait for you to rollout and then jump over it. or hit you with some attack to interrupt. I wouldn't recommend using it if you are trying to improve.

 

[the wizard howl]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Os9ewmoik3Q
rollout sucks

 

[Celerity668]

The Jigglypuff in that video isn't smart about Rollout.. It's easy to time a hitbox if the puff goes in immediately. You use it as a spacing move and if they're not respecting the rollout, hit them hard.

 

[Maniclysane]

The only time rollout is "useful" is on FD if you hard read a missed tech you'll be close enough and charged up enough to cover all of their options.

 

[Dextrose]

any tips on l canceling dair, im having trouble grabbing or up smashing after it

 

[-LzR-]

any tips on l canceling dair, im having trouble grabbing or up smashing after it

It's tricky because even if you Lcancel it it's not enough. You also need to fastfall and Lcancel at the right moment in the move or there won't be enough advantage to go for a grab. I can't really explain when the timing is because I can't do it.

 

[Mahone]

20xx helps a lot with that, cuz u can just try it and then keep reseting the state

 

[Legendre]

How viable is it to get good at puff with the majority of your time spent practicing alone? Once you get shffling and other techskill down, how do you improve alone?

 

[-LzR-]

How viable is it to get good at puff with the majority of your time spent practicing alone? Once you get shffling and other techskill down, how do you improve alone?

Then you get even better at it. You can never be good enough with techskill.
And do practice perfect spacing. With Puff you need to have great spacing or you might as well use Kirby. You can make training alone work with Puff too but it will be much harder than with the spacies.

 

[Legendre]

Then you get even better at it. You can never be good enough with techskill.
And do practice perfect spacing. With Puff you need to have great spacing or you might as well use Kirby. You can make training alone work with Puff too but it will be much harder than with the spacies.

Thanks! Do you have any suggestions for training things besides techskill, like spacing and overall play alone?

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Thanks! Do you have any suggestions for training things besides techskill, like spacing and overall play alone?

You can't really practice "overall play" unless you're playing a world-class player who is punishing you for your mistakes. But with 20XX pack and being able to see your hitboxes and their hurtboxes, you can practice spacing.