Social Bair is underpowered - Puff Social/Disc Thread

[knoxvader]

The way I see it, Fox/Puff is by far the best team composition. They in fact do complement each other quite well; the only unfortunate thing I can see (for Puff in this case) is that Fox's lasers will not wake up a sleeping teammate. However, he's fast enough to the point where he can dash over and do a dash attack or jab or something where it's not really a problem unless there is an enemy Fox in range. Even then, that's not that bad of a trade.

Fox has great ground movement and great grounded options, and he has a wicked vertical KO move. Puff has crazy aerial dominance and really good horizontal kill options. Even Fox doesn't have a bad air game, and Puff isn't entirely useless on the ground (but let's get back to the point). Both characters are fantastic at gimping, and both have good recoveries. The Puff can even help out Fox's recovery if necessary.

If Fox gets a grab at decent % with a nearby teammate, Puff can get an easy rest. Likewise, Fox can upsmash Puff's grabbed victim. Even then, they are not grab-heavy characters to the point where it is almost immobilizing (see: Falcon and Sheik in doubles -- not bad by any means, but rely on a lot of grab setups regardless). They can juggle opponents pretty well, and can do some cool carry combos, e.g., Fox gets a back air, opponent is about to land in hitstun right by a grounded Puff, Puff fsmashes. Stuff like that is amazing in this comp.

I really see no downside to the Fox/Puff comp. other than the fact that Puff still dies at 60 and Fox can get gimped pretty early in a 1v1 split situation. 4 Leaf Mango has shown time and again why it's such a good team.

 

[Metal Gear Salad]

I lightly tap away on the control stick, then jump with Y while hittting forward on the Cstick, and holding forward on the control stick, if you want to come on stage.

I, like anyone else on this forum, will tell you to use whatever button combo is most comfortable for you. Then again, Jiggs isn't really that technical, so pretty much anything should be comfortable

thank you for your help, i've got it now. turns out it was flipping me round cos of hyper sensitive (or insensitive) dolphin controls. works fine on a normal controller.

 

[s_cube]

I thought that once I got the 20xx Hackpack to work I'd finally practice seriously 24/7.
What I end up doing 99% of the time is turning on hitboxes and laugh about b-air.

Anyone feeling me on that one?

 

[Da Shuffla]

That's something I've been wondering. Bair is supposed to be disjointed, but is it only that way if you "drag" it?

 

[FerrishTheFish]

That's something I've been wondering. Bair is supposed to be disjointed, but is it only that way if you "drag" it?

I trust you to come to an educated decision.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Glad HBox finally beat Armada's YL. He did amazing this entire tournament. Sad he didn't beat Mango, tho.

 

[the wizard howl]

It seems like hbox just assumes people are going to run into his aerials.

 

[mYzeALot]

He doesn't assume that, he only knows that spacing bairs is "safe," and if anyone tries to beat it out then puffs bair will win. And to stop the whole match from being just that (or if he is getting camped), he throws in tomahawks and nairs to mix up.

 

[KingDozie]

This really annoying when i try to edgeguard fox he's up b just go through my bair and fair edgeguards. How do you beat that and also he's side b mixups?

 

[mYzeALot]

A lot of people act like Fox has a bad recovery, but it actually is very good and can be tough to edgeguard. A lot of the time you have to make a hard read on a 50/50 chance, and work on spacing bairs... a pretty important thing for puff to do.

 

[the wizard howl]

You can use dair to cover a lot of stuff. Dudes don't do it except for bieber and me ('cause I stole it from bieber) but it's neat.
otherwise it's just practicing so that you don't screw up your spacing.
Use more of your butt and less of your feet when you fair.
Just assume that they're going to sideB until you see the fire start. Makes things 10xs easier.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Sometimes I jump from like a side plat and fastfall a nair to "cover" the forwardB option (as in, not really cover it but it looks like I am to scrubs). If they fall past and upB, I can hit them out of their upB. If they forwardB anyways like a smart person then worst case scenario is I get hit by the forwardB. I usually have time to take the ledge before they can edgeguard me if they go high.

Also remember that if they don't sweetspot, there is a small window for you to hit them after they get back on stage. For forwardB, they usually have to fall a bit and then have some landlag after, so that's your window. For upB, they usually have to fall a bit (again, assuming no sweetspot) but don't seem to suffer landlag from that move, so it's a little tighter.

But realistically, neither move should be beating out your aerials, so practice landing aerials from the farthest distance possible.

 

[mYzeALot]

Is it like actually safe at the ledge as Puff, similar to how m2k acts with his Sheik and Marth? It seems like she should be, but I don't know if she can get hit out of regrabbing the ledge, or spacing bairs.

 

[the wizard howl]

you've got a lot of jumps it's pretty darn safe

 

[RaphaelRobo]

You're Puff. The only part of the stage that isn't safe is wherever your opponent's hurtboxes are.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

The ledge is safe-ish. It's safe because you probably won't get gimped or somehow chased off of the ledge by an opponent, but it's -ish because you also won't be launching any counteroffensives or punishing any good players ... for ... stuff. It's not going to get you that W if you're behind, and I feel like if you're ahead just normal bait-and-punish is equally good or better.

Regardless, I don't think anyone's ledge game compares to the Shino stall. Or M2K, for that matter.

 

[Krynxe]

The ledge is definitely not safe for puff. Her "power" on the ledge is nothing but a scare tactic, because the risk-reward is heavily in puff's favor if your opponent approaches the ledge unintelligently with an easily gimpable character. Try playing against an actually high level player while camping the ledge, and see how much it won't work out for you. This tactic only works optimally against some characters, but almost all of the top/high tiers have multiple options for dealing with it very safely, in which the puff player will slowly take % and get no reward for it.The only time the ledge is "safe" is if you have at least a stock lead and the timer is putting pressure on your opponent, and that's only because they feel forced to get a kill on you and then make an unintelligent or hasty decision increasing the risk-reward factor for the puff player.

Don't use puffs tools and mobility on the ledge to stall, use it to get your opponent away from the ledge so you can get back up as safely as possible.

 

[mYzeALot]

Sick response. I was curious because it seems like Puff has some things to do, and it works against some of the people I play. But as I'm doing it it seems like there are small windows where they could do a specific move to hit me. Now I know that Puff does not have a Shino-esque stall.

 

[Fortune]

Now I know that Puff does not have a Shino-esque stall.

she basically does, if you use invincibility to fair on stage and regrab ledge. Honestly I just plain disagree with Krynxe. I think the ledge is very safe for puff. It's better to mix up what you are doing and catch them if they are trying to attack you. Just use your invincibility well.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Yeah, I have to disagree with him too. While I don't camp the ledge, from personal experience I've found you can use smart weaving and well timed ledge grabs/sings to make the ledge a very safe place. Camping on the ledge unintelligently is unsafe, but any unintelligent play is unsafe. And before you say it only worked because my opponent wasn't a high level player, I'm fairly certain PPMD is a fairly high level player.

Puff is most vulnerable the very moment she's grabbing the ledge, so you need to be aware of that if you're playing at the ledge. A good opponent can easily come in there and punish you right at that moment, so you have to be super patient with when you actually grab the ledge to refresh your jumps. You can also edge cancel to refresh jumps, so keep that in mind.

Oh, and I know I keep editing this, but one other super important part about ledge game is invincibility. You can take advantage of this to do some sick stuff.

That's all. I'm gonna drink some Scotch and sleep. Peace.

 

[Seagull Joe]

How do I beat ?

 

[Krynxe]

Puff loses if the Falco is better, unless he's playing dumb. Just don't be locked down by his movement and lasers, try to be evasive and slowly rack up damage whenever you see an opportunity, like nairing over lasers and stuff, and you're obviously also fishing for openings.

in a nutshell: 95% of your mileage is gonna come off rest setups and throwing/hitting them offstage and gimping them. They're obviously doing their best to not get hit by that stuff, so your general goal is to...
1) find a free opening and capitalize, very very hard versus a high level Falco player
2) make a risky guess where the risk/reward is highly in your favor, hope you get a stock for it, but usually you'll get hit or shined (but you can do a lot of these in a set and if your execution is good you can gain more than you lose) this usually involves movement reads with grabs, reading jumps with uairs, emptyjump grab/utilt, etc etc
3) actually just hitting them with good n/f/bairs, racking up enough percent to get them offstage easier with an aeriel, or force them to tech with a fair/nair and read the tech with a punish

the key is not looking too desperate for easy stocks, cause then you'll be so much more predictable and the falco will control the pace of the game even more than he already is (a spacie will always control the pace unless they're by the ledge or offstage, but when you're more focused on getting gimps/rests than on control, you'll get completely overwhelmed)

 

[FerrishTheFish]

http://smashboards.com/threads/mah0nes-stuff-about-puff.298777/

Spoiler: Falco MU Guide

D!ck him in the beak until he can't CC and/or starts shielding.
Then start d!cking his oos options.
Weave out just enough to not get counter-d!cked.

Most of the match is going to be zoning and single hit setups. Don't get too greedy for combos: hitting him once and stealing center stage is really valuable already. But also don't get lazy and let him lock you down with lasers or steal center stage for free. Also, trading with Falco isn't that bad (compared to other MUs), so you don't have to fear them so much.

This MU can get psychological because desperate/scared Falcos are free. Monday I played a Falco who is way better than me, but one game I got a Rest KO and he fell apart on his next two stocks (so I basically got 3 stocks with one Rest). So pay attention to what they do but also why they are doing it, and you might get free stuff.

If he manages to start a combo, general rule is to use some combination of SDI up+away and DI offstage.

Also, Falco's recovery is good vs. Puff. His upB is terrible, but he can mix up his forwardB heights/lengths and Puff is too slow to cover all the options.

 

[Krynxe]

Also, Falco's recovery is good vs. Puff. His upB is terrible, but he can mix up his forwardB heights/lengths and Puff is too slow to cover all the options.

Puff isn't too slow to cover the options, you just need to go offstage immediately. If you're unable to do that, then yeah you'll probably be too slow, but whenever I get falcos offstage they're dead in the majority of situations.

When you get a falco offstage, it's practically never near the top corners. It will almost always be a f/bair or a f/bthrow, so he won't be incredibly high up or far away from the stage. You just need to approach from sort of above him at a diagonal angle, Falco can't hit you away like Marth or some other chaarcters can, so get close and make them panic their recovery. If he double jumps you use one of your jumps and hit him immediately and it's a stock, if you tries to recover under you you'll be right there to fall on him and interupt illusion or firebird. You have to make sure you're really close to catch jump back, just don't get to eager to hit falco before he burns the double jump unless you know it will kill

But if falco's not dead before the illusion comes out, then he'll probably make it back to the stage

 

[Maniclysane]

Does anyone know what frames Fox and Falco can start jumping/shining out of uthrow rest?

 

[-LzR-]

The very first frame the hitstun ends. That depends on the % and I doubt anyone has gone into the trouble of finding those frames out.

 

[Gliffie]

http://www.twitch.tv/smashnorge/b/563429164 at 3:48:00

I'm using Puff to counterpick here (both against the character and the player), and I really think it has potential, at least when you look at the 2nd game. My strategy was really just warm up Puff a bit before the match and spam bairs, so how can I improve for the next time we meet? Just better safe spacing? I didn't see a lot of rest opportunities here, so how can I improve that?

 

[FerrishTheFish]

The highest I've ever landed an uthrow Rest on a Fox was just shy of 60%, but I think that guy just didn't know the timing or something.

@ Gliffie : I don't think Puff is a great CP vs. Peach. Puff has to work really hard in the neutral game and for kills. Imo, Peaches who complain about the MU just don't want to adjust their strategy for Puff.

That said, you should work on your spacing. You were getting way too close with your bairs/fairs and not weaving out enough. Zoning and baiting are really important for Puff in this MU and in general. You should probably avoid Pound unless you have the opportunity to shieldpoke her head with it, it's too laggy otherwise.

You were also missing crossup nair/tomahawk opportunities, which you should go for if you think Peach will shield (or at least not trade). These can lead to grabs, or utilt -> uairs if you read their jump (or utilt -> Rest if you are super lucky).

One thing I usually go for at least once per set is to tomahawk land in front of their shield and just crouch. They can't do a whole lot to punish you for that, but if they knee-jerk shieldgrab, it's a free Rest. Also, Peach dash attack is a free Rest if you shield or CC it.

 

[Gliffie]

@ FerrishTheFish , thanks! Yeah it's not really a hard CP, but Gardex (the Peach player) says it's his worst matchup, and some Puff experience for me shouldn't hurt anyways.

 

[The Maven]

Hey guys, I've been getting into Melee, and Jigglypuff seems to be working for me.

So, what should a Puff player do?

 

[Twhy]

Bair
10 char

 

[FerrishTheFish]

More like, practice ground and air movement. L-cancels, auto-cancels, ledge-cancels, jump-canceled grabs. Wavedashing and wavelanding too. Not having full control over your character will give the other guy free stocks.

 

[Kaddy]

What's a good way Jiggs can bait out shield drops?

 

[Krynxe]

What's a good way Jiggs can bait out shield drops?

Hit someone's shield while they're on a platform and then back up?

people don't really shield drop that frequently that you would need to bait it out, but there's only a couple scenarios where shield dropping is useful so if your opponent does it a lot then just don't be over aggressive in those situations

or do you mean them just letting go of shield?

 

[Kaddy]

I meant shield dropping from platforms. I've been having better luck against it recently by baiting them out and delaying aerials. Thanks for responding though :D

 

[Loket]

Im a IC main who resently picked up puff to compliment rough matchups and to have a solid teams character.
I played a tournament yesterday and got peached alot as IC's so i tried my puff out but without any succes.
I know the matchup is heavily in puff's favor but its definetly not free if you dont know it that well, any tips on the matchup?
I know camping with spaced bairs is good but they camped with FC aerials back and we ended up trading alot wich is bad for me in the long run.
How do you want to possition yourself and what are you suposed to look out for in neutral to get openings?

 

[Fortune]

I know the matchup is heavily in puff's favor but its definetly not free if you dont know it that well, any tips on the matchup?

The matchup is NOT heavily in puff's favor, at least not in any way I can see. You constantly lose trades with peach if your aerials are not perfect and it's hard to rest her. The only way in which I have found success in this matchup is by playing SUPER campy, as in getting close to a timeout every other match [stage dependent]. That is, do one safe aerial and then get out. The level of campiness is of course dependent on the skill of the peach in the matchup. I think you can pressure peach by staying near her as well, but the trades are just too common for my liking.

 

[the wizard howl]

Peach isn't free, hbox is just good at it. You'd probably find more success CPing fox or brainstorming ICs technology. It'd probably be less stressful anyway.

Overt Goals for puff: shark at magic range, especially at head height the entire match as far as is possible. (Magic range = the exact spot where you can tipper bair a turnip pull). Punish all turnip pulls. Abuse her low mobility and continue to build damage with individual hits until she dies through extended edgeguards. You are required to rely on bair to win this MU.
Uptilt to rest at low % when possible (this is your gameplan until she's over 20% or whatever it is, I'd have to look it up again). Mix in empty hop grabs when shield happy (dthrow>techchase rest).
Peach wins when she is allowed to build damage faster than you do by turnip abuse and trading with your bad spacing/overly hasty punishes. There is no such things as an approach for puff, only punishing bad commitments/movement from shark distance.
Avoid bad situations completely. Don’t gamble or press.
Nair goes through turnips but isn't worth doing unless you are going to hit her throw endlag.

Also float is exactly 3 seconds long. Knowing that helps a lot as any character vs peach.

 

[Loket]

I will try to keep these tips in mind next time I play this matchup.
When Peach is floating, is it better to wait out the float and punish her upon landing?
I feel like I lack the ability to force her into shielding

 

[the wizard howl]

Generally you don't want to just jump out and hit her from float unless she swings first 'cause if she fairs you it sucks hardcore even if you trade. It's a little like a game of chicken with a 3 second timer. Once float starts there are only a couple of things that can happen.
1. She whiffs and you punish (what you want)
2. You whiff and she punishes (improbable)
3. You trade (likely if you space badly or jump the gun)
4. The float ends and you get a punish (doesn't actually come to this very often in my exp)
5. She gets stage control out it (which jigglypuff doesn't care about).
You want 1 or 4.
Floating is a long-term losing strategy for peach because she has to bank on you having poor spacing to win. For that reason she should be trying to stay grounded and harass you with turnips, at which point if you're sharking the magic range correctly she's going to have to shield a lot.

If she has a turnip none of that applies and you just want to focus on not getting hit with it.

If the peach isn't playing nicely it probably means that she isn't respecting your strats, so you have to punish hard and consistently to make her start to respect you.