Social Bair is underpowered - Puff Social/Disc Thread

[FerrishTheFish]

So we should always be trying to play on the side of the stage farthest away from the opponents respawn point, right?

I think that every opportunity to land a KO rest should be taken, the sole exception being if other non-rest methods also guarantee an immediate stock (mainly thinking of fsmash)--not because of the potential stock trade, but because staled rest is significantly nerfed in its killing power. Even then, the time it takes you to evaluate that could mean you lose the opportunity. It's just so hard to land rests in general that maneuvering to land them far from the opponent's spawn point is not practical, and you kind of need to outplay your opponent to control the stage that well in the first place.

Also, today I got sweet, sweet revenge (a 3-stock and a 4-stock) on a Fox who 2- and 3-stocked me a month ago. Don't have vids of either encounter, but I guess my basic spacing/patience/punishing shields increases when I am salty? It's possible the crown played a role too.

Also also, I propose sodium fluoride as the official salt of Puff mains for those strong basics and phenolphthalein the official indicator for that pinkish glow, because all MUs get PWNed by **** they don't understand and can't pronounce.

 

[-LzR-]

Don't rest if your opponent is able to kill you afterwards and you are behind in stocks. Applies especially well against Fox. Most rests are trades.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Don't rest if your opponent is able to kill you afterwards and you are behind in stocks. Applies especially well against Fox. Most rests are trades.

I'll concede that this situation is theoretically bad to rest in, and I disrespect nobody who plays that way. However, if you are behind in stock vs. a Fox (or anyone), that pretty much means his current strategy is working; I think the chance to interrupt his groove as opposed to trying to beat him at his own game that he is currently winning deserves much more serious attention and consideration than its theoretical inferiority would suggest.

Example: When I 3-stocked that Fox today in game 1, he took my first stock and gave me 40% on my second stock before I really touched him (we struck down to YS because I hate being camped more than I hate small blastzones). I was behind in stocks and losing badly. Then I landed balls-in, totally shouldn't have worked, out of nowhere rest, he flubbed the DI horribly and got star-KO'd, and that messed up his focus for the remainder of the set. Now, I understand that is an extreme example that I will probably never duplicate within my lifetime, but if I hadn't gone for that balls-in rest, that game and probably that set would have been a repeat of last time because I know of no Puff strategy that can reliably deal with campy Fox, and I'm pretty sure I didn't randomly get better after a month of not playing because life.

 

[Da Shuffla]

I'm not a Puff main, but I still say that any chance at landing a Rest should be taken, except of course when it will cost you the game. If anything about how you land it should be altered, I would focus on trying to kill off the top.

 

[the wizard howl]

trading stocks is usually objectively a bad idea.
I'll do it if I'm at a % to die to the next bair but otherwise it's not worth it to gamble your stock on whether your opponent will spontaneously develop a bad mindset or not.
in WI we say a 50% gamble gets you 2 and 2 in bracket, which is horrible.

 

[Bones0]

I think the most relevant thing to consider is whether you could just KO them without the rest. Even at 150%, if they miss the DI on a uthrow or something near the edge and you are confident you can bair chain them to death, you might as well do that.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

I think the most relevant thing to consider is whether you could just KO them without the rest. Even at 150%, if they miss the DI on a uthrow or something near the edge and you are confident you can bair chain them to death, you might as well do that.

I think that every opportunity to land a KO rest should be taken, the sole exception being if other non-rest methods also guarantee an immediate stock.

When is the next opportunity for the Trooping Faerie and the Tooth Fairy to double-Puff in teams?

 

[Massive]

The idea that you are relying on somebody to screw up their rest punish as part of your main strategy is heavily flawed.
Someone with even minor puff experience can DI low and get the trade stock and totally reset/end up with a lead.

You might as well be playing Kirby and relying on people to not mash out of fthrow suicide.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

You might as well be playing Kirby and relying on people to not mash out of fthrow suicide.

Ok, seriously people. I didn't say everyone should take that gamble every time. I didn't say anyone should take that gamble most of the time. I even stated that I realize it is the inferior option and therefore not fit for a "main strategy."

I said don't automatically dismiss it. Yes, it's inferior. Yes, you risk getting ****ed over by your opponent. Yes, routinely relying on it is stupid. But sometimes, that gamble is a ray of hope in a desperate situation, and sometimes it works. Just because I offered up an example of subpar but psychological tactics paying off in a situation where conventional tactics weren't working, that doesn't mean I use them all the time. Would you prefer me to not produce evidence to back up my claims?

And that analogy is downright insulting. Who here honestly believes that escaping Kirby's fthrow is harder than DIing a surprise rest? Since frame windows apparently mean nothing to you, why not just tell me my playstyle is so stupid that I should switch to Pichu and only charge forward B? Or Ganon and only use utilt? Or Roy and only charge neutral B? Never seen me play, but you so smart to know without a shadow of a doubt that these are such better options for someone with my skill level, right?

EDIT: Ok ... Scary Ferri apologizes for over-the-top call-out, but fair-ish Ferrish requests that more reasonable call-out be allowed to stand, because Massive's post was inaccurate and demeaning.

 

[Massive]

Sorry if I trolled a bit too hard dude.

Puff is by nature a high risk, high reward character. Sometimes you've gotta bet it all on a longshot... just not all the time.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Hey guys, fellow puff player here just comin out of nowhere and re-joining the Melee Jigglypuff community. I played Melee Jiggs from 2005-2008 but stopped to play Brawl and became rly known for playing Jigglypuff in Brawl. Except Brawl is dead now so I'm returning to Melee.

I'm excited to meet you all and I hope to catch up on the Jigglypuff Metagame that I've missed for the last 6 years.

 

[KingDozie]

Hey guys, fellow puff player here just comin out of nowhere and re-joining the Melee Jigglypuff community. I played Melee Jiggs from 2005-2008 but stopped to play Brawl and became rly known for playing Jigglypuff in Brawl. Except Brawl is dead now so I'm returning to Melee.

I'm excited to meet you all and I hope to catch up on the Jigglypuff Metagame that I've missed for the last 6 years.

Didnt you make a youtube vid anyway welcome back.

 

[Da Shuffla]

My Puff had its tournament debut yesterday at a local in doubles.

That. . .could have gone better.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Didnt you make a youtube vid anyway welcome back.

I've made a couple. Youtube account name is the same as my Smashboards account name

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Sorry if I trolled a bit too hard dude.

My response wasn't exactly mature either. Regardless, I'm glad we can see past it. Puff boards > Flame wars.

IN OTHER NEWS
So Puff's evolution chain currently looks like this:

Igglybuff
|
(Happiness)
|
v

Jigglypuff
|
(Moon Stone)
|
v

Wigglytuff​

Who here agrees it should look like:

Igglybuff
|
(Happiness)
|
v


Jigglypuff
|
(Moon Stone)
|
v


Wigglytuff
|
(Protein x10)
|
v
BigglyROUGH

​

 

[Gamer_Mason]

I was watching a video of SS | Soft fight a Fox, and I noticed that when he used uthrow when he was under platforms, he wouldn't usually go for the rest immediately because they could tech it. Instead, he would uair them and rest after they land, missing the tech. The commentator said that this was a tech trap.

Is it that the fox tries to tech the platform from the uthrow, but the tech timer doesn't refresh before he lands after getting hit by the uair? What are the full mechanics to this? It seems preferable to missing rests because they tech the platform.

 

[the wizard howl]

yeah, that's exactly how it works. If you upair and cause them to delay hitting the platform they won't be able to tech in time. It's easily reactable, so in that once in a blue moon situation where they waited/were late and manage tech the upair you should still easily get a non-rest punish.

Does puff have any other tech traps? Other than that one I've only ever slipped an uptilt in cheesy low% situations.

 

[Mahone]

I was looking for rest combos on Ganondorf (for some reason), and it occurred to me that the location you land rest on ganondorf matters... a lot. And then that works for all the characters.

So we should always be trying to play on the side of the stage farthest away from the opponents respawn point, right? Obviously it won't always matter, but on Final Destination this feels very important. Is there any information on adjusting play based on the ports and respawn points?

Yes, i haven't ever talked about this, but its super underrated. What you should do when playing anyone in tournament is pick a controller port that is one of the 2 center spawns on fd, therefore increasing the chances they get an outer one... then take note of this and it means you can go for rests on the other side of the stage even at death percents. You shouldnt focus on moving the fight to that side if it affects ur game, but when it doesnt hurt you, definitely abuse it... for example, if you kill them, go plank the side of the stage thats away from their spawn (which ud want to do anyway since they're going to be invul)

As for that tech trap, its mainly with the upthrow, but it happens in other situations... sometimes if u like falling upair or uptilt and then quickly upsmash, they'll miss the tech because they were trying to tech the first thing, and also if u just do a really late low bair or something before someone lands it can happen... its some 30xx thing, i definitely think it has potential but only those people with TEH FIRE like leffen would probably work on it a lot and find ways to use it


Those were 2 REALLY good questions, made me log in and post for the first time in like a year lol, not that the other questions are bad, but i think both of those things are really interesting

 

[the wizard howl]

when's the next mahowned?

 

[Mahone]

ahah, i already got banned from the facebook group and pmed like 1000x times cuz of the **** joke i made, so to answer your question, soon...

seriously though, this has to be the best kill ever done in smash history:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6ZhW_Js8IE#t=195

 

[Da Shuffla]

Alright, I kinda had a revelation of sorts about playing Puff today.

Basically, when playing against Puff, people are doing all they can to "get in" on Puff. They want to get past all the aerials, and hit her with aerials of their own. So, when playing Puff, you keep them out, and make sure that the only way that they can get in is going to lead to a Rest, or a tech trap/grab that will also lead to the Rest.

I thought about it this way, because I am used to trying to always "get in" on the opponent so I can get Rests, but that isn't necessarily how she should be played.

Unless it is actually possible to play an "aggressive" Puff.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Unless it is actually possible to play an "aggressive" Puff.

Forward actually gave me some tips for my Puff along those lines. He said, "Get better."

 

[shapular]

I might be maining Jigglypuff soon. Currently deciding between her and Falco. I'm leaning towards her since there are already a ton of Falcos in TN, I've been doing better with her than Falco with less practice, and she feels sort of like a Brawl character to me (I'm primarily a Brawl player). Other than rests and wall of pain, what should I be working on? Is there a good way to practice wall of pain against CPUs or in training mode?

 

[Fortune]

you should practice wavedashing out of shield.

 

[shapular]

you should practice wavedashing out of shield.

I can already pretty much do this. I play PM a lot so getting used to Jigglypuff's jump timing will be the main thing. Anything else?

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Empty jump -> grab aka tomahawk which is my favorite thing ever and all I talk about on these boards. It punishes shield pretty hard.

 

[Fortune]

Practice options out of auto-cancel nair.

Work empty hop grab into your game.

When edgeguarding, go for edgeguards that do not give the opponent the opportunity to tech. Dair helps out with this when they are close to the wall and you don't want to bounce them off it.

edit: practice shield drop up-air.

 

[shapular]

Thanks for the tips, guys. I think I'm getting better with Jigglypuff pretty quickly. I've been using her on netplay and a week or so ago I made a Fox player ragequit in the first match after I got two quick up throw rests. I haven't had a chance to use her against the people in my area so I'm looking forward to seeing how that goes. Today I played a pretty decent Doc on netplay and he actually complimented my Puff. I couldn't quite figure out that matchup, though. It seems like her throws don't combo into anything and he's hard to edgeguard with the pills and the floatiness. I did figure out that she can jump in with dair and then weave back out of his range to bait a move, but other than that I couldn't really find anything that worked particularly well. Any tips?

 

[LetGoOfMyBread]

1. Who is puff's best doubles partner?
2. Picked up puff last week, what should I practice (I'm usually alone)?
3. I watch mostly HBox and S0ft. Any other suggestions?

 

[the wizard howl]

I love puff with fox but you can make other stuff work very easily. In doubles how/how well you work with your partner are much much more important than what the character is.
There's not all that much that you can practice by yourself. Make sure that you hit 100% of your L cancels and start watching videos with a notebook imo. Also practice moving after the L cancel as soon as possible. Little improvements here really matter to puff.
Mango if you want to see what puff looks like when she's smarter than both the opponent and you.

 

[Da Shuffla]

Yeah, please bring a Mango style Puff back into the meta. I'm slowly beginning to realize that people tend to not venture into new territory, and stick with what they see in videos. This explains the popularity of space animals, and the hatred of Puff (despite her not winning a national in quite a while).

So, playing a style a little more like Mango, and incorporating your own style into it, will help out the Puff meta.

Fox is probably any character's best teammate (arguably even Fox, but I hate both playing as and against double Fox. I find that combination to be lazy). However, any "fast" character will do.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Peach/Puff makes a good team in my experience. Peach has her broken dsmash clear-outs, and Puff can snag edgeguards off of them. Turnips to escape Rest lag. Both can stall if the other one dies, both have good recovery, both can edgeguard pretty well.

Marth/Puff and Shiek/Puff operate similarly to Peach/Puff, tho not as good imo.

I don't think Puff teams all that well with Fox, beyond the fact that both are top-tier chars and Fox destroys the entire cast 1v1. They don't really complement each other's skill-sets or set the other up for KOs. Falco/Puff works better, imo. Both chars go for KOs off the sides and bottoms, Falco can laser Rest lag, Puff can shore up Falco's recovery.

Only other teams I can remember playing are Zelda/Puff, Ganon/Puff, Yoshi/Puff, and Falcon/Puff. Which, in order, are terrible, hilarious, tanky, and awesome.

tl;dr Doubles are for scrubs.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

As for playing your own style ... Back when I still played actively, I had people like Axe and Taj saying that I did stuff they'd never seen before (specifically my ledgehop Falcon Kick edgeguards and my dthrow techchase regrabbing Link). But all that originality never got me past Loser's Round 2. So I think it's worth pointing out that sometimes people do things the boring/video/Big5 way because it's the best way.

 

[Fortune]

Marth can be good as well, that grab range -> grab rests.

 

[LetGoOfMyBread]

Thanks guys.

 

[Mahone]

ya, i feel like in theory marth/puff should be gdlk, but people don't care enough about teams so we'll probably never know

 

[Metal Gear Salad]

Without sounding like a total noob, how do I get the invincible ledge hop fair down? I either keep bairing offstage or jumping/rolling on stage. It's irritating me...

 

[Da Shuffla]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIbTCytbYSs

Best Falcon/Puff vid I could remember

I wish people cared more about doubles, but the only way that would happen is if there were doubles-only tournaments. Doubles usually gets the shaft because singles is present. Still, there is soooo much depth in doubles that has yet to be discovered. That's one of the reasons I'm starting to get more into it.

Edit: SNK, if you're jumping/rolling onstage, you are probably hitting the direction of the stage too soon. If you are bairing offstage, then my guess is that you are using the A or Z button for aerials, and are hitting that button too soon after you let go of the ledge.

 

[Metal Gear Salad]

Thanks for the reply, what's the general button input for it?

 

[Da Shuffla]

I lightly tap away on the control stick, then jump with Y while hittting forward on the Cstick, and holding forward on the control stick, if you want to come on stage.

I, like anyone else on this forum, will tell you to use whatever button combo is most comfortable for you. Then again, Jiggs isn't really that technical, so pretty much anything should be comfortable