Attention all Pit players, stop using these "Adv." techs

[Rhyfelwyr]

Read every post made in this topic before replying! Lots has been said, and views have changed with new insights!

I have faced a bunch of Pit users lately, and all of them try doing these new techs with punishable results.

Arrow Looping/Swarming
Please stop this. It's too predictible, and time consuming. You're much better off firing another arrow regularly, which is faster, or jumping with an aerial. Too many times I've worried about getting caught defenseless while landing, only to see my that my fears are baseless when my opponent starts doing a dance to loop their arrow.

Especially don't do this while someone is recovering to the stage. You're wasting your chance to gimp them.

Let's look at this like a game Chess, where you try to gain a better position then you're opponent.

On the ground, they can: Shield, dash, crouch, jump, smash attack, tilt-attack, jab, all four special moves.

In the air they can: Fastfall, airdodge, four special moves, five aerials

Off the stage then can: Airdodge, one special

You see, when someone is off the stage, they can't risk using an attack or fastfalling without self-destructing. This is the most vulnerable position, they're like a newborn baby. And what do you do? You waste time looping 5% damage arrow with no knockback, when you could have tried F or N-airing them.

Wing Shoving
If you really want to get someone off the edge, do your F-smash. That will still push them off, and if they don't shield, you get a hit. There's no advantage to using Wing Shoving, it doesn't do any damage to your opponent, and it creates an opening for them.

WingDashing
This isn't the new wavedash. If you want to move away from you're opponent, do a regular dash. At least then you can still shield, jump, attack, or pivot grab. You have fewer options from a wingdash, and it's not any safer or faster.


I'm not saying anything about the people who discovered these techniques. All I'm trying to do is help improve the Pit players out there. Work on the basics, those last forever. Practice timing, spacing, mindgames, not these special techniques.

 

[Leggo]

i defenitly get what your saying... but you never know when your going to use. For example, i posted this on my other post. I used wing shoving out of nowhere against my friend playing Ike and it just worked wonders for the time being...

"it seems to only work really effective on skinny platform maps. my buddy was waiting at the edge and i was holding onto the edge...i let go, snuggled up close to the ledge, did a WoI, and grabbed the ledge again really quick, this pushed him off the ledge, and I got it back quick so he had nothing to grab and i footstooled him quickly...very easy to footstool like that too!(managed to do this on a CPU everytime as well)...

also he was Ike and he was using his charge eruption move along the edge, and I used this again, which sends him off and as an Ike player its hard to recovery cause of the lag time you have while falling doing that move....
"

all this tricks i think should be learned, just cause you never know when its going to be used. However i agree with you completely that the basics are what should be focused on and its not about being flashy or anything.

 

[rezen1337]

Well, those just seemed like nice little tidbits to use. Arrow looping doesn't seem too practical unless the opponent is under the stage. That's the only one I find really useful out of those three.

There are others that are really useful in battle, like PSD (power shield dashing), Glide Shifting, and a bunch of others. The three you named are the ones I honestly expected people to try out and be punished severely for.

Unless you're a total master of these techniques, then don't try using them.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

i defenitly get what your saying... but you never know when your going to use. For example, i posted this on my other post. I used wing shoving out of nowhere against my friend playing Ike and it just worked wonders for the time being...

"it seems to only work really effective on skinny platform maps. my buddy was waiting at the edge and i was holding onto the edge...i let go, snuggled up close to the ledge, did a WoI, and grabbed the ledge again really quick, this pushed him off the ledge, and I got it back quick so he had nothing to grab and i footstooled him quickly...very easy to footstool like that too!(managed to do this on a CPU everytime as well)...

also he was Ike and he was using his charge eruption move along the edge, and I used this again, which sends him off and as an Ike player its hard to recovery cause of the lag time you have while falling doing that move....
"

all this tricks i think should be learned, just cause you never know when its going to be used. However i agree with you completely that the basics are what should be focused on and its not about being flashy or anything.

I'm not saying not to learn these, but I see people abusing these things like they're the new shield-grab. There is so little use to these things, that you should only be doing them once every hundred matches.

Well, those just seemed like nice little tidbits to use. Arrow looping doesn't seem too practical unless the opponent is under the stage. That's the only one I find really useful out of those three.

There are others that are really useful in battle, like PSD (power shield dashing), Glide Shifting, and a bunch of others. The three you named are the ones I honestly expected people to try out and be punished severely for.

Unless you're a total master of these techniques, then don't try using them.

I'm not saying all adv. techs are useless, just the ones I'm addressing. Like you said, PSD, Glide shifting, Wing Renewal, and others are good.

Even if you completely master these techs, they still limit your options, or have a better alternative, and are therefore not worth it.

 

[Ryanarius]

arrow looping is made of win. I've used a good bit even in tournies. Generally I'll only use it if the opponents is trying to stalling in a stage change (examples pokemon stadium rock section behind the giant wall or pirate ship on the rock segment (on another note pirate ship is an awful pit map imo I generally restrict castle siege but I probably should restrict pirate ship)), just try something gimpy by hanging on the edge and tossing out an annoying attack or basically just to make sure they realize they have to approach me or be hit by arrows.

But really you are right most the techs are worthless for the most part.

 

[kown]

rhy r u serious?
I can't believe your telling this straight up. i cant even believe this a real thread. alright
i dont agree with anything your saying here!!!!!!!!! You say you play pit players who are trying these AT but maybe they aren't good. Wingdashing was just recently discovered so only a few ppl have it down. also half of the pit community can hardly arrow loop let alone combo off of it. We are practicing it against you, sometimes ppl try to improve rather than win.

1) Your wrong. Nothing is useless. There will always be a situation for a particular move. Its up to you to choose if you want to use that move. your not thinking about EVERY situation also as you will see on my comment on wing shoving.

Ill begin with arrow looping:
Arrow looping is the best mind game out there. Arrow looping is used when your opponent is trying to recover. You don't understand the purpose of arrow looping.. Arrow looping is UNPREDICTABLE meaning that your effed either way!!!!!!!! I dont care if you kno its coming its the fact that its there!. what are you going to do about it. You have 2 options. Air dodge or get hit by the arrow which is followed up by a fair ftw. Either way you become punished. you CAN NOT COMBO off of a non looped arrow because of the lag after you shoot. Arrow looping is one of the best moves pit has and by far SHOULD be used.

Wingdash

I think this IS useful but situational. You cant just rush in there expecting this move to work. This move is suppose to throw off the opponent. Heres the ideal application of this move. Your opponent shields wingdash and directly perform a sidestep/grab/attack. Im not saying that this is useful but it definintely isnt useless. Wingdashing also allows you to perform the ftilt with forward momentum (Similar to PS ftilt)


wingshoving (assuming this means the wing push)

THIS IS USEFUL ALSO.
when im hanging on the edge i press down followed by up b to use wingshoving to push any char away from the edge so that its safer for me to get back on the stage.
This also pushes snakes nades away from you but i consider this a weak part of my argument.

its all these little things that change average players to great players.

 

[Undrdog]

This is sort of what I've been saying Wing Shoving, Wing Dashing and random use of Wing Canceling.

However I do find Arrow Chasing to be incredibly useful against certain opponents. Sone characters such as Samus and Zamus are dangerous to chase off the edge. I'd rather keep them on their heels while they are recovering to prevent them from getting their wits about them while I remain free to do as I wish. Arrow Chasing also involves chasing off the edge, however with Arrow Chasing you're given the security of an arrow tailing your projected course to your opponent.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

arrow looping is made of win. I've used a good bit even in tournies. Generally I'll only use it if the opponents is trying to stalling in a stage change (examples pokemon stadium rock section behind the giant wall or pirate ship on the rock segment (on another note pirate ship is an awful pit map imo I generally restrict castle siege but I probably should restrict pirate ship)), just try something gimpy by hanging on the edge and tossing out an annoying attack or basically just to make sure they realize they have to approach me or be hit by arrows.

But really you are right most the techs are worthless for the most part.

Looping arrows to hit people where you normally can't is a good use. What I'm complaining about is when people use this in a stage like battlefield.

1) Your wrong. Nothing is useless. There will always be a situation for a particular move. Its up to you to choose if you want to use that move. your not thinking about EVERY situation also as you will see on my comment on wing shoving.

I'm not saying a move is useless, I'm saying there are other moves that accomplish the same thing, but do it better.

Ill begin with arrow looping:
Arrow looping is the best mind game out there. Arrow looping is used when your opponent is trying to recover. You don't understand the purpose of arrow looping.. Arrow looping is UNPREDICTABLE meaning that your effed either way!!!!!!!! I dont care if you kno its coming its the fact that its there!. what are you going to do about it. You have 2 options. Air dodge or get hit by the arrow which is followed up by a fair ftw. Either way you become punished. you CAN NOT COMBO off of a non looped arrow because of the lag after you shoot. Arrow looping is one of the best moves pit has and by far SHOULD be used.

Did you read my points about arrow looping? Arrow looping is extremely predictable, all you have to do is look at your opponent after he's fired an arrow. Comboing with the arrow loop only surprises once. It only works if your opponent blindly rushed into you.

Off the edge I've never been disadvantaged by a looped arrow, even when the person did it as soon as possible. The more time the person takes before getting to me, the more time I have to get closer to the stage, the closer to the stage I am, the more options I have. The only way someone's been able to loop an arrow, and jump off after me, was when I was already knocked too far away to make it back.

Wingdash

I think this IS useful but situational. You cant just rush in there expecting this move to work. This move is suppose to throw off the opponent. Heres the ideal application of this move. Your opponent shields wingdash and directly perform a sidestep/grab/attack. Im not saying that this is useful but it definintely isnt useless. Wingdashing also allows you to perform the ftilt with forward momentum (Similar to PS ftilt)

What did you accomplish in the example you gave? All I saw was an unsafe dash. It's too much to try wingdashing in the hopes that your opponent messes up, because you can't do this quick enough to predict him.

wingshoving (assuming this means the wing push)

THIS IS USEFUL ALSO.
when im hanging on the edge i press down followed by up b to use wingshoving to push any char away from the edge so that its safer for me to get back on the stage.
This also pushes snakes nades away from you but i consider this a weak part of my argument.

Why don't you do a ledge hop attack instead?

This is sort of what I've been saying Wing Shoving, Wing Dashing and random use of Wing Canceling.

However I do find Arrow Chasing to be incredibly useful against certain opponents. Sone characters such as Samus and Zamus are dangerous to chase off the edge. I'd rather keep them on their heels while they are recovering to prevent them from getting their wits about them while I remain free to do as I wish. Arrow Chasing also involves chasing off the edge, however with Arrow Chasing you're given the security of an arrow tailing your projected course to your opponent.

I'm talking about people with normal recoveries. Against character's such as Samus who can bomb jump, and Metaknight, It's better to fire arrows instead of jumping after them. But then I don't see why you would loop an arrow. Firing regularally is faster. Mindgames with a loop are pointless when your opponent is in the one-way mindset of getting on stage. If you want to be unpredictable, charge your arrows instead, you get more damage that way.

 

[Undrdog]

I loop arrows so they come from behind the opponent and they can't actually see the arrow's approach. Also with Arrow Chasing, if done correctly their only defense is to alter their course back the stage as air dodging would leave them open for a direct attack from Pit.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

Timing for a loop arrow, at least to me, is really easy to predict. Arrow chasing can never limit someones defenses if they're smart. If you have the arrow coming at about the same time as yourself, then all he has to do is airdodge to avoid both. If the you come first, and the arrow is delayed to come a little after, then all he has to do airdodge you and take the arrow. If the arrow came first, he should take that first, then airdodge you.

By arrow chasing you can possibly force someone to take an arrow hit, but I think you'll find that if you actually went and intercepted from the beginning, where they're most vulnerable and airdodging is more risky, your increased chances of landing a f-air, or even a b-air after whiffing an f-air, will be much more worthwhile then getting an arrow shot.

I don't know how you're arguing for this still. Arrow chasing may work for what it does, but it keeps you from dashing off the stage to do a stronger attack at a more opportune time.

In your videos UndrDog, I've seen people grab the ledge, or get above the stage 19 times out of 20 when you try arrow swarming. And you're doing arrow swarming perfectly, so you can't blame this on bad execution of technique. Once someone is over the stage, their possibilities of options open up enormously. They can now fastfall, spam airdodge, use any of their five aerials, use their other three specials. The exchange of giving them more options, for you to have an arrow loop, is a bad trade off.

In way of summary. Arrow looping rarely cuts off options for your opponent, it's actually apt to let your opponent gain more options.

This next point doesn't have to do with only arrow looping. Why do people find it so hard to ignore a technique? In a game like Soulcalibur, characters have 10x the amount of different attack available to them compared to Smash, yet when ever you look at tournament players make strategies, they compare what moves they use. These people often completely ignore 2/3 of their movesets! Why? Because there are so many moves that have the same function, but one of them is always completely better then the other. In Smash we're not use to this because of the brilliant design Sakurai made where every attack has a different use unique to itself by virtue of direction. Now when we see these exploits, we think they must have a use as well, but they don't necessarily do.

This is why we see thread after thread shut down by the pro players in the tactical discussion. People come in with their discoveries, thinking that because it's new, it must be incorporated in to everyone's gameplay. They don't actually think about what practical use it has, or if it's possible use is already filled in better by a different technique.

 

[henrytran]

A slight boon towards using the Arrow Loop vs. shooting more arrows is if you charge the arrow first. So if you do this method, here's what you get:

Charged arrow (9-11% + more knockback), and a (9-11% + more knockback) loop. So thats 2 charged arrows in effect going after the opponent.

Shooting another arrow results in this:

Charged arrow (9-11% + more knockback) and a (3-5% + less knockback) second arrow.

This isn't exactly game breaking, but does make the loop slightly better. With practice, you can really control the loop->hunting the opponent.

 

[CorruptFate]

I gota go with Rhy on the arrow looping when an opponent has to much recovery or reflector then I spam arrows at them but when i'm against someone who doesn't then I chase them off it works better this might be because I'm not solid with my arrow looping but I can curve the **** thing very nicely. Not sure if I Agree with your hate for wingdashing but you make a good point.

 

[lmnz]

wow. i d-throw people under platforms. they land and shield expecting a u-air, i platform wing cancel for another grab. HOW is that useless.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

I'll explain now why wavedashing was amazing, and why wingdashing is not. Yet again it has to do with options.

Normally from a dash you can...
Dash attack, shield, grab, or jump, 4 specials, roll, spotdodge

What made wavedashing amazing was how it let you move at the same speed as a dash, but you could also do...
jab, d-tilt, u-tilt, f-tilt, f-smash, d-smash, u-smash, 4 specials, shield, grab, jump, roll, spotdodge

Wing dashing allows you to...
Do a laggy aerial, or cancel

Can you see the difference?

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

wow. i d-throw people under platforms. they land and shield expecting a u-air, i platform wing cancel for another grab. HOW is that useless.

When did I say platform wing canceling was useless? Ah, maybe it was that general statement I made, that was a mistake, I'll take that down.

I'm really only talking about the three techniques I mention in the first post.

 

[lmnz]

When did I say platform wing canceling was useless? Ah, maybe it was that general statement I made, that was a mistake, I'll take that down.

I'm really only talking about the three techniques I mention in the first post.

oh... okay lol then i don't have much against it =P

 

[Tyson651]

Rhyfelwyr, i 100% agree with what ur saying. im no pit player, im actually a snake main, and i laugh at pits who try to loop their arrows around me to hit or wingdash or w/e its called haha.

though pits who fire continuously at a straight line or curve it at the end to hit me is annoying, and id say that is way more effective.

 

[kupo15]

First off, let me say that I agree with you to some extent. Naturally, I am going to defend my technique but before that, I want to say that I never used Wavedashing in Melee as a part of my game so I don't know how to effectively use Wingdashing in context...yet. But.

I'll explain now why wavedashing was amazing, and why wingdashing is not. Yet again it has to do with options.

Normally from a dash you can...
Dash attack, shield, grab, or jump, 4 specials, roll, spotdodge

What made wavedashing amazing was how it let you move at the same speed as a dash, but you could also do...
jab, d-tilt, u-tilt, f-tilt, f-smash, d-smash, u-smash, 4 specials, shield, grab, jump, roll, spotdodge

Wing dashing allows you to...
Do a laggy aerial, or cancel

Can you see the difference?

Don't interpret this to me sounding like a jerk, but I don't see the difference because the way you just described Wingdashing is incorrect so to clarify
Wingdashing is not the move shown in the first have of my video at all. Wingdashing uses the cancel so I don't know what you mean by laggy aerial. So if that confused you, I think I should edit the Video to cut out the first part.

I find that Wingdashing and Wavedashing are very similar:

Wavedashing allows you to slide backwards while still facing forward and during the slide, you can not attack. But you can attack afterwards with no lag.

Wingdashing allows you to slide backwards while still facing forward and during the slide, you can not attack. But you can attack afterwards with no lag. Yes I copied from wavedashing but it is true if you execute Wingdashing correct.

The startup of the move is the same. The ending is the same.

Differences.
*Wingdashing is harder than Wavedashing.
*Spacing with Wingdashing can vary depending on how long you hold back.
*Wavedashing only has two spacing options, perfect or imperfect. Imperfect spaces you half of a perfect

Conclusion:
Wingdashing is the closest form of Wavedashing in Brawl thus far. But at the moment, I don't feel that this should be overused. Something I thought is that everyone is trying to find a wavedash and here is a wavedash equivalent. But maybe Brawl is not made for wavedashing. Even if a perfect wavedash equivalent was found, I doubt it would be any more useful than this because of the floaty nature of the game. Just a thought.

Arrow looping
I think it is useful to a certain extent. For the example given for Battlefield, the most effective way to loop is shoot an arrow in the opposite way. There isn't much more to say on this that hasn't been posted

FINAL CONCLUSION:

I believe that there is a place for ALL of these tech. to be used. Wingdashing and arrow looping should not be abused and thought as of a solution to everyone's problems. I think that Wingdashing works better for some characters than others and I think that arrow looping is most effective at high percent due to greater knockback and hitstun.

Wingdashing is really hard to get perfect and until further testing and time, I think that it should not judged so soon. The same with arrow looping. It is easier but I think that there is a possibility that someone will be able to unleash the full potential of these AT's

 

[guitarnerd]

I completely agree with Kupo. As of right now, these techs are situational. In the future, the useful situations could increase with practice and a better understanding of all characters.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

I completely agree with Kupo. As of right now, these techs are situational. In the future, the useful situations could increase with practice and a better understanding of all characters.

This is only opinion. Unless you counter my points, you're not going to be convincing.

Don't interpret this to me sounding like a jerk, but I don't see the difference because the way you just described Wingdashing is incorrect so to clarify
Wingdashing is not the move shown in the first have of my video at all. Wingdashing uses the cancel so I don't know what you mean by laggy aerial. So if that confused you, I think I should edit the Video to cut out the first part.

What I mean by laggy aerial, is that while you have the WoI, you can only either do a lag free aerial, or rise up a little bit and do an aerial with landing lag

Wavedashing allows you to slide backwards while still facing forward and during the slide, you can not attack. But you can attack afterwards with no lag.

Incorrect, the whole point of wavedashing was the ability to attack while sliding.

Wingdashing allows you to slide backwards while still facing forward and during the slide, you can not attack. But you can attack afterwards with no lag. Yes I copied from wavedashing but it is true if you execute Wingdashing correct.

See here now? Wingdashing makes it so you can't attack until afterwards, not the same as wavedashing. The ability to move backwards while facing forward is irrelevant to the success of wavedashing. C-stick smashes and tilts, and pivoting make this not an issue.

*Wavedashing only has two spacing options, perfect or imperfect. Imperfect spaces you half of a perfect

Incorrect again. Through rapid inputs you could flow very easily to where you exactly wanted to be.

Conclusion:
Wingdashing is the closest form of Wavedashing in Brawl thus far. But at the moment, I don't feel that this should be overused. Something I thought is that everyone is trying to find a wavedash and here is a wavedash equivalent. But maybe Brawl is not made for wavedashing. Even if a perfect wavedash equivalent was found, I doubt it would be any more useful than this because of the floaty nature of the game. Just a thought.

Wingdashing isn't like wavedashing at all, and wavedashing would be extremely useful in Brawl. Look at my comparison of options during the various dashes.

Arrow looping
I think it is useful to a certain extent. For the example given for Battlefield, the most effective way to loop is shoot an arrow in the opposite way. There isn't much more to say on this that hasn't been posted

Why would you shoot the arrow the opposite way? Pit can turn around while holding an arrow.

FINAL CONCLUSION:

I believe that there is a place for ALL of these tech. to be used. Wingdashing and arrow looping should not be abused and thought as of a solution to everyone's problems. I think that Wingdashing works better for some characters than others and I think that arrow looping is most effective at high percent due to greater knockback and hitstun.

How can you say that these techs have uses? I've listed very clearly why you shouldn't do these. You have neither given new points about these techs, nor have you given a counterpoint to the reasons I've shown. I don't want to sound mean, but your argument has literally done nothing.

Wingdashing is really hard to get perfect and until further testing and time, I think that it should not judged so soon. The same with arrow looping. It is easier but I think that there is a possibility that someone will be able to unleash the full potential of these AT's

What could be done differently that would change all this? We know how the system works, unless we find a way to break the physics engine with this, we know full well what this tech's potential is.

 

[kupo15]

Rhyfelwyr, i 100% agree with what ur saying. im no pit player, im actually a snake main, and i laugh at pits who try to loop their arrows around me to hit or wingdash or w/e its called haha.

I have to be honest in saying that this ticked me off a little. Wingdashing is really hard and very new. It is the same thing as me saying, "I laugh at all of the Toon Link players who fail at performing the Kizzu combo."
I know that the Kizzu combo is good but the point is that they may still be learning and trying to practice. Just because a technique isn't helping someone doesn't mean it is useless. They are still learning it and trying to improve.

Also now that I have been playing as Pit for some time, I am realizing how easy Pit can get gimped. Don't get me wrong he is amazing. But
*He gets out ranged most of the time
*Out prioritize most of the time
*Limited in kill moves means you need to work harder for kills

Contrary to popular belief, I think that being a good Pit player is hard and takes more skill because anyone can pick up Ike and either kill you at 40 percent or spam Fair's with Marth and get away with it. I sometimes think he needs all of this help because his predictability can be gimped easily.
Sorry had to get that out and I didn't mean to offend anyone.

 

[Ryu-u]

The arrow loops are very useful as I have noticed. But I agree with you that this Wing things are very...well... useless.
In my opinion the people only want to discover morbidly new techs...

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

Contrary to popular belief, I think that being a good Pit player is hard and takes more skill because anyone can pick up Ike and either kill you at 40 percent or spam Fair's with Marth and get away with it.

Um, Pit can spam arrows and get away with it, then once the damage racked up you just have to do a bunch of F-smashes until it lands. Of course this won't work in an advance setting, but that's the strategy that all the newbies use, and works for them.

BTW, did you see my post above kupo?

The arrow loops are very useful as I have noticed. But I agree with you that this Wing things are very...well... useless.
In my opinion the people only want to discover morbidly new techs...

Expound please. I've said why arrow looping doesn't work, can you tell me how it does work?

 

[kown]

bad post on my part

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

Uh, are you being sarcastic? I can't tell.

If you are, it's not very appreciated. I didn't make this thread to make anyone sound dumb. I have respect for everyone here.

I'll say it now just in case. I'm deeply sorry if I'm offending anyone with my arguments. I'm not attacking the people, I'm only attacking the arguments.

 

[Rogue Pit]

Every is being to hostile in this situation, Rhy you basically said that all pit players should stop using Adv techniques but now that you clarified that "Im only attacking the arguments." The debating over whos right can end. Guys you cant change minds only persuade, give advice voice your opinion but you dont have to be so angry about it. Relax, Rhy you probably just played people who were trying them out. IT's practice. Kown wing shoving is the worst its good when its necessary and arrow looping a second time can be a mind game. when making contact the first time, they will be more cautious about it the next.

 

[kotahlicious]

are looping and all that watch some of undrdog matches he is good with it he owns this one smaus really bad lol.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

Every is being to hostile in this situation, Rhy you basically said that all pit players should stop using Adv techniques but now that you clarified that "Im only attacking the arguments." The debating over whos right can end. Guys you cant change minds only persuade, give advice voice your opinion but you dont have to be so angry about it. Relax, Rhy you probably just played people who were trying them out. IT's practice. Kown wing shoving is the worst its good when its necessary and arrow looping a second time can be a mind game. when making contact the first time, they will be more cautious about it the next.

Thank you for saying this. In all honesty I hope I'm proven wrong, because then it means Pit's game has improved. If it looks like I refuse to change my position, that's only because no one has given me a counter argument. I hope this discussion can move on in a friendly manner. I'll admit that I've probably handled this discussion rather poorly. Please forgive me.

Dont arrow loop on certain stages because its not worth it.
theres no possible way of looping an arrow on say BF to actually execute a combo.
It doesnt use mindgames and your wide open for an attack.
I mean honestly why not just shoot a regular arrow or go perform fairs and bairs.
shooting a regular arrow gets the job done except twice as easy
It would be obvious to take the easy route.
combing with Arrow looping is a one time use as rhy says "Comboing with the arrow loop only surprises once."
if it can ONLY work once why should i ever do it? therefore making it not worth trying.
Just stick to the normal spamming arrows.
what ever works to get the win.

If it works once then good, after that though, should you keep doing it?

Wingdashing
wow this is just bad since ALL it can do is cancel and provide a laggy ariel.
Again no mindgames can be used with this attack also.

Okay, you're saying what I said. Is there something wrong with it?

Wingshovng
this is probably the worst tech out there.
Why would i ever want to get out of ddd's grab combo?

I forgot about this actually. What was the verdict? I heard it could work, or that it couldn't. That thread should be brought back up.

are looping and all that watch some of undrdog matches he is good with it he owns this one smaus really bad lol.

I'm aware of UndrDogs matches, I even reference them in one of my earlier posts in this topic.

 

[kotahlicious]

hmmm wingdashing or w/e seem RELATIVELY use-less im sure in the million matches in will be good some where but its so slow not it all like wave dashing which i was almost able to do in melee at play n trade cause of talking about it i had never evene held a gc controller and i go up and nealy wave dash.

 

[kupo15]

No Rhy I did not prior to my last post because it wasn't there when I started to write. Once again, don't interpret this wrong

What I mean by laggy aerial, is that while you have the WoI, you can only either do a lag free aerial, or rise up a little bit and do an aerial with landing lag

Ok but the landing lag part has nothing to do with Wingdashing

Incorrect, the whole point of wavedashing was the ability to attack while sliding.

I admit my inexperience with wavedashing application, but are you saying that you can attack at anytime during the wavedash? Anytime means from the sec you input the airdodge. I have never seen anyone attack while sliding back. I have tried and you must wait until the sec you stopped moving before you are free to attack.
Wingdashing is the same way. You must wait for the WoI to go away before being able to attack. In this case, WoI acts like the slide in wavedashing. I have never seen any pro video who can cancel the slide into a move.

See here now? Wingdashing makes it so you can't attack until afterwards, not the same as wavedashing. The ability to move backwards while facing forward is irrelevant to the success of wavedashing. C-stick smashes and tilts, and pivoting make this not an issue.

See, here is where my misunderstanding of Wavedashing is. I thought one good thing was to be able to always face the opponent. Noone ever explained to me why it was so good. I didn't get competitive until a couple of months before.

Incorrect again. Through rapid inputs you could flow very easily to where you exactly wanted to be.

Are we thinking the same thing? I mean that where you end up has more options with Wingdashing. Look at the diagram below. Because of my inexperience in wavedashing ect feel free to correct me:

X=start WD
O=End WD

Wavedashing options:

X-----------O (perfect Wavedash)
X----O (Imperfect Wavedash)

Wingdashing options:

X-----------O (Perfect Wingdash)
X----------O
X---------O
X--------O
X-------O
X------O
X-----O
X----O
X---O
X--O
X-O

This is what I think, I most certainly maybe wrong

Wingdashing isn't like wavedashing at all, and wavedashing would be extremely useful in Brawl. Look at my comparison of options during the various dashes.

I know this which is why in my OP I said it wasn't. And maybe a better understanding of Wavedash may make me understand. Since noone really explained it, I only assumed what was and its uses from what I saw.

Why would you shoot the arrow the opposite way? Pit can turn around while holding an arrow.

Three reasons:

*Make the arrow looping unpredictable by coming from behind
*After an Uair that send the opponent flying far behind you
*Stages with platforms like Battlefield block arrows when coming from behind you. Looping the other way makes the arrow approach from the other side thus avoiding the plaforms

I know it is easier to shoot someone point blank instead of looping, but it could add to mindgames and throws off their timing.

How can you say that these techs have uses? I've listed very clearly why you shouldn't do these. You have neither given new points about these techs, nor have you given a counterpoint to the reasons I've shown. I don't want to sound mean, but your argument has literally done nothing.

Very true. I have not made counter arguments because I haven't had the time to play around with these Tech's so I can't provide any video proof or battle examples to counter your argument.

What could be done differently that would change all this? We know how the system works, unless we find a way to break the physics engine with this, we know full well what this tech's potential is.

You never know. Something could be discovered that makes this relevant similar to how shffl and pilliars launched Falco to top tier in Melee. You never know what other discoveries could be made through this knowledge.

Um, Pit can spam arrows and get away with it, then once the damage racked up you just have to do a bunch of F-smashes until it lands. Of course this won't work in an advance setting, but that's the strategy that all the newbies use, and works for them.

True but I don't want to labled as a Noob

QUOTE: Ryu-u
In my opinion the people only want to discover morbidly new techs...
[/QUOTE]

I can't believe you said that. Some people maybe doing this but don't make such a generalization because I for one am not apart of this crowd you speak of.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

Thank you for taking this maturely, I'm really impressed.

You can do an attack from the moment you start sliding from a wavedash. The reason you can control wavedashing to be where ever you want, is because you can interrupt a wave dash with another wavedash. In fact wavedashing to go back and forth is faster and easier then wingdashing.

*Make the arrow looping unpredictable by coming from behind
*After an Uair that send the opponent flying far behind you
*Stages with platforms like Battlefield block arrows when coming from behind you. Looping the other way makes the arrow approach from the other side thus avoiding the plaforms

1.) I don't see this as being unpredictable, all I have to do is look at the Pit player to know it's coming, and then I have a couple seconds to brace myself.

2.)If he's flying far behind you, then again, you could change your facing and fire it straight at him

3.) I admit that looping to reach places normally unreachable is a good use. What I'm concerned about is how people use looping on a flat stage.

 

[kown]

ok now that wing shoving is done ill talk about arrow looping. the main comment that got me was
" Especially don't do this while someone is recovering to the stage. You're wasting your chance to gimp them."

It would be better to loop an arrow rather than shoot an arrow directly at him because you can combo off of the arrow unlike a regular shot.

Lets say ive alrdy used this move once so its no longer "surprising".
thats the point of this move! You hvae no idea how many times ive missed a looped arrow and they still air dodge. This creates wide openingS.

Obviously if i hit the arrow its an easy combo.

Now what if they air dodge the arrow in the air?
does that not also create an easy opening?

You say that they can dodge the pits attack and take the arrow.
this will never be the case. the arrow should always go first and with the lag that the arrow causes it should set one up for a combo.

Also i think one of your arguments mention the limitation of looping an arrow and comboing off of it.

"Arrow looping rarely cuts off options for your opponent, it's actually apt to let your opponent gain more options."

you say rarely as if it IS possible with practice.
really it can improve my opponents options?

Another argument you present is saying why not perform fairs and bairs instead of this?
first you can always perform other moves no matter what the situation is. Arrow looping is just another approach. You say that its better than arrow looping. TO ME that sounds like an opinion. Like you said earlier an opponent has so many options in the air. sIm trying to say that one should do an arrow loop with the fairs and bairs. I mean if you say go for it rather than spending the time setting an arrow loop up y not compromise that by letting them get closer to the stage and making themselves come to there death. Also you dont HAVE to do the arrow loop if your in the middle of the process. So if by chance your arrow wont hit them and you ahve a good chance of using a bair or fair than do that and quit the arrow loop.

You say that arrow looping cant be performed on some stages effectively. this is not true because one can shoot in the opposite direction of the opponent and loop it from above setting up for a perfect bair.

Limitations are set by the players. practice can overcome this feat. If you think that there is not a way to arrow loop and move pit towards the opponent than your looping needs practice.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

ok now that wing shoving is done ill talk about arrow looping. the main comment that got me was
" Especially don't do this while someone is recovering to the stage. You're wasting your chance to gimp them."

It would be better to loop an arrow rather than shoot an arrow directly at him because you can combo off of the arrow unlike a regular shot.

I'm not saying to do regular shots instead of looping, I'm telling you to jump off after them.

"Arrow looping rarely cuts off options for your opponent, it's actually apt to let your opponent gain more options."

you say rarely as if it IS possible with practice.

It's only possible if the opponent messes up. There isn't a situation where you can make this work, it depends on him.

really it can improve my opponents options?

Time is the greatest option maker. By looping you're giving him more of it.

Another argument you present is saying why not perform fairs and bairs instead of this?
first you can always perform other moves no matter what the situation is. Arrow looping is just another approach. You say that its better than arrow looping. TO ME that sounds like an opinion.

I gave perfectly valid reasons why it shouldn't be an opinion. I showed how f-airs and b-airs are stronger then arrows, and how when you're opponent is far off the stage he is at his most vulnerable state to these moves.

You say that arrow looping cant be performed on some stages effectively. this is not true because one can shoot in the opposite direction of the opponent and loop it from above setting up for a perfect bair.

Lets say ive alrdy used this move once so its no longer "surprising".
thats the point of this move! You hvae no idea how many times ive missed a looped arrow and they still air dodge. This creates wide openingS.

Obviously if i hit the arrow its an easy combo.

Now what if they air dodge the arrow in the air?
does that not also create an easy opening?

You say that they can dodge the pits attack and take the arrow.
this will never be the case. the arrow should always go first and with the lag that the arrow causes it should set one up for a combo.

Also i think one of your arguments mention the limitation of looping an arrow and comboing off of it.

You'll have to show me a video. In the times we fought, your looping didn't create an opening once.

Limitations are set by the players. practice can overcome this feat. If you think that there is not a way to arrow loop and move pit towards the opponent than your looping needs practice.

There are limits set forth by the game that can't be overcome. The very definition of a game is achieving a goal within the rules (limits) of the setting.

There is a time during the looping of an arrow where you have to press up and behind, this can't be avoided.

 

[kupo15]

I understand where you are coming. Firing directly is the most logical but I am sick of ppl always air dodging it. Also, you can loop an arrow while charging one so you can unleash two at the same time if you want.

One more thing. The lag that it takes for Pit to withdraw his bow prevents you from capitalizing on their airdodge. I will post more when I have time.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

I understand where you are coming. Firing directly is the most logical but I am sick of ppl always air dodging it. Also, you can loop an arrow while charging one so you can unleash two at the same time if you want.

Try holding the arrow, and releasing after they airdodge. If varying your timing doesn't increase your chance of hitting someone, but arrow looping does, then I'll concede to it having that use. But I think that after a while, a person will be able to avoid loop arrows just as easily as plain ones.

One more thing. The lag that it takes for Pit to withdraw his bow prevents you from capitalizing on their airdodge. I will post more when I have time.

The time it takes to loop an arrow is greater then putting away the bow. You still won't be able to punish their airdodge, unless they come straight to you.

 

[kown]

i think your taking some of my quotes out of context. in this quote i seem not to provide any evidence to counter your viewpoint. If you would read please read the rest of the paragraph i give a clarification .

Another argument you present is saying why not perform fairs and bairs instead of this?
first you can always perform other moves no matter what the situation is. Arrow looping is just another approach. You say that its better than arrow looping. TO ME that sounds like an opinion.

That seems as if i end it like your dumb? i dont intend that at all.
you leave this part out

Like you said earlier an opponent has so many options in the air. sIm trying to say that one should do an arrow loop with the fairs and bairs. I mean if you say go for it rather than spending the time setting an arrow loop up y not compromise that by letting them get closer to the stage and making themselves come to there death. Also you dont HAVE to do the arrow loop if your in the middle of the process. So if by chance your arrow wont hit them and you ahve a good chance of using a bair or fair than do that and quit the arrow loop.

im not saying your wrong either. but your saying to stop using these moves (the title implies) which i think is wrong. Im only trying to give u an option to use them. If you do the same thing over and over again than it becomes predictable.

Please provide an explanation to why arrow looping with fairs and bairs is always bad compared to going out there completely and performing fairs/bairs.

i took down one of my posts because it came out wrong.

lol if you had aim this would be so much easier.



Also I dont use arrow looping on ganondorf because its so easy to edgegaurd his up b.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

I wasn't trying to take things out of context, I was just getting rid of filler. If that's a problem I'll stop.

I didn't address what you said about making looping work, because you didn't address what I said made it not work. It's coming down to a matter of my opinion and experience against yours. Further discussion on the matter seems futile. :shrug:

 

[kown]

i acknowledge that your way works.

my quote

im not saying your wrong either. but your saying to stop using these moves (the title implies) which i think is wrong. Im only trying to give u an option to use them. If you do the same thing over and over again than it becomes predictable.

i cant criticize your argument. you support it well with evidence. Its the title of this thread that gets me, to stop performing arrow looping is fine as long as you give an explanation on why my views are bad. thats why i want an explanation.

 

[sagemoon]

bleh i hate smashboards lag double post stuff. Argument is below

 

[sagemoon]

OMG This is probably the coolest debate on the pit forums and I've missed it until now. I've read through it all and will give my opinion on everything.

Personally I don't think any tech is pointless, unless its a whole bunch of button inputs to get the same effect as something much simpler (i.e. pressing up x y triangle square a+b to preform a forward smash when you can just press over A or c-stick). However there is always a right way to use a technique and a wrong way, an imperfect way and a perfect way. None the less, mastering every aspect of every situation of the game is what separates professional players from good players.


Arrow Looping/Swarming

Personally I don't think you should have posted these in the same argument. Arrow swarming, which is where you loop more than one arrow at a time, is relatively pointless in my opinion. It takes too much time to set up and is virtually impossible to control effectively enough to actually hit your opponent w/ more than one arrow.

However I do find arrow looping very important in my game. In your post you mention how its easy to predict and only does about 5% damage. You say nothing about the follow through. Have you tried arrow looping as an approach? With this you can get more range w/ lets say an f-tilt while applying pressure on your opponent to dodge or block an arrow.

Furthermore if your opponent tries to air dodge/spot dodge you can follow up as soon as the dodge is done.

Let's look at this like a game Chess, where you try to gain a better position then you're opponent.

This is exactly what I'm trying to say. If you force your opponent to react to an arrow, then it sets you up in a better position. This tech shouldn't be used to just hit someone with an arrow, it should be used to manipulate your opponent and put them under a high pressure situation.

Wing Shoving

In my opinion not the greatest move, but its still not useless. There are certain characters such as snake or diddy that set up items like a grenade or banana. You can push these out of your way without being punished (assuming you wing cancel it) this is effective against snake if he tries to do that shield grenade crap (where he has a grenade dropped w/ a shield and if you try to attack him you will get blown up). Also this can be used to push characters away from you at the ledge, and you can follow with a ledge hop fair or ledge hop double arrow, or ledge hop arrow to fair.

Its not useful for killing your opponent. I've managed to do it once, only when my opponent messed up.

WingDashing

I don't think you've looked into this tech enough to fully describe a counter argument no offense. You describe it like it should be applied as a wave dash. Which is not how this tech should be used. It does work for spacing, but not nearly the same caliber as a wave dash.

There are other things that make this tech useful though. First off that wind push effect can mess up an aerial approach. Lets take a real situation. My friend who plays Mario is approaching me with nair. He's about to hit me. I can put my shield up and block the attack and then counterattack with f-smash out of shield. However, my friend can auto cancel his nair and jab combo me before i can get an f-smash in. Therefor I'm left having to block everything.

In this same situation. I can also Wingdash slightly backwards as his is at my head level. When i do this, the wind push effect keeps him in the air just a bit and leaves him hanging right there to be punished. I've now set myself up for a perfect opportunity to f-smash him. He can't avoid this and the wind push effect basically gave me a sort of wall to punish him.

Another way of using this is to use it as an approach against a projectile. For this example i will take pikachu. His full jump neutral b is very campy and effective. I could easily just try to mirror the electricity back at him. I don't know if anyone has played a pikachu that does this, but its really not effective and wont stop the pikachu. When you use a mirror shield, you cant follow up after the move. It basically just adding damage (assuming you hit the character) and it normally ends up with an even trade. The mirror shield will leave you vulnerable due to its lag if you pull it out expecting a projectile.(i just realized this was probably not the best hypothetical situation, but you get the idea)

In the same situation, I can wingdash to cancel out this projectile and follow up with a forward smash, or w/e else i want to really. Wingdashing is really good at approaching projectiles, even pits arrow is canceled out with a wing dash. Basically its an effective way to close space while going through a projectile. This does take some timing though, about the same timing as a powershield, maybe with a few extra frames. Powershielding works, but you don't close that gap and cant punish fast enough. With wingdashing you can actually hit your opponent before they get out of their lag time from the projectile.

Finally, wingdashing prevents you from getting grabbed. I find this most helpful against long ranged grabs such as link, or ice climbers (they can combo you up to 70% with a grab you you gotta be cautious). Taking into consideration that you can do this move out of a shield, you can avoid being grabbed if you can predict it right (big if i know..). However there is also times when its obvious that your opponent wants to shield grab you, take that into considerations and you can do some pretty cool stuffs. If your opponent dodges, most the time you can get the down smash off as they come out of the dodge, if they don't dodge early enough, then you push them out of range with wing push.


Thats all my counter arguments with the first post. I'll provide any reasoning for any parts anyone is confused with.