Attention all Pit players, stop using these "Adv." techs

[kown]

sagemoon has a way better argument for wavedashing than i could think of. nice job

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

EDIT: This post was before Sagemoon's.

I'm not denying it's an option, but I see it used way too often. Maybe saying to stop it altogether is too much.

I'm going to give a recap of what seems to be the general feelings towards these techniques.

WingDashing
At this point it appears to have no purpose. There's the possibility of this becoming useful later on somehow.

WingShoving
This has a few very specialized uses, such as escaping a chaingrab, and it shouldn't be used for much else.

Arrow Looping
This has potential for mindgames, but it doesn't really increase your ability to KO. It's useful to some people, but you don't have to use this to play at a pro level.

Am I getting this right?

 

[sagemoon]

sagemoon has a way better argument for wavedashing than i could think of. nice job

Wingdashing lol, dont get it confused XD

EDIT: This post was before Sagemoon's.

Beat you too it hahaha. I'll post so i guess you wont have to double post?

 

[kown]

i think arrow looping is needed for pro level (every little bit helps). I think arrow looping is the biggest mindgame that pit has (my opinion). i agree with wing shoving. since you posted this after sagemoon im not sure on your view(s) of wingdashing.

oh woops i didnt mean to write wavedashing. i meant wingdashing

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

First of all, thanks for giving me something tangible to argue against! It's like a breath of fresh air.

Arrow Looping/Swarming

Personally I don't think you should have posted these in the same argument. Arrow swarming, which is where you loop more than one arrow at a time, is relatively pointless in my opinion. It takes too much time to set up and is virtually impossible to control effectively enough to actually hit your opponent w/ more than one arrow.

However I do find arrow looping very important in my game. In your post you mention how its easy to predict and only does about 5% damage. You say nothing about the follow through. Have you tried arrow looping as an approach? With this you can get more range w/ lets say an f-tilt while applying pressure on your opponent to dodge or block an arrow.

Furthermore if your opponent tries to air dodge/spot dodge you can follow up as soon as the dodge is done.

This is exactly what I'm trying to say. If you force your opponent to react to an arrow, then it sets you up in a better position. This tech shouldn't be used to just hit someone with an arrow, it should be used to manipulate your opponent and put them under a high pressure situation.

I did say something about the follow through, look at my post after UndrDog's again. The same thing with Kown is happening here. It's coming down to my experience versus yours. I've yet to find this useful for myself, but I'm no longer going to tell others to stop it completely.

Wing Shoving

In my opinion not the greatest move, but its still not useless. There are certain characters such as snake or diddy that set up items like a grenade or banana. You can push these out of your way without being punished (assuming you wing cancel it) this is effective against snake if he tries to do that shield grenade crap (where he has a grenade dropped w/ a shield and if you try to attack him you will get blown up). Also this can be used to push characters away from you at the ledge, and you can follow with a ledge hop fair or ledge hop double arrow, or ledge hop arrow to fair.

Its not useful for killing your opponent. I've managed to do it once, only when my opponent messed up.

Wing shoving on grenades and bananas was one of the first things I tried to do. Catching and throwing the items is better. Pushing people off the edge seems like a really risky thing to do, with little reward. You have to be up close and vulnerable to use this. Your opponent could grab or attack you if you try. Even if you succeed, it's like you said, it doesn't kill.

WingDashing

I don't think you've looked into this tech enough to fully describe a counter argument no offense. You describe it like it should be applied as a wave dash. Which is not how this tech should be used. It does work for spacing, but not nearly the same caliber as a wave dash.

The only way others were describing it was like a wavedash. I'll admit I haven't looked into it too in-depth. But as I did list dashing, and/or fox trotting as an alternative that gives more options.

There are other things that make this tech useful though. First off that wind push effect can mess up an aerial approach. Lets take a real situation. My friend who plays Mario is approaching me with nair. He's about to hit me. I can put my shield up and block the attack and then counterattack with f-smash out of shield. However, my friend can auto cancel his nair and jab combo me before i can get an f-smash in. Therefor I'm left having to block everything.

In this same situation. I can also Wingdash slightly backwards as his is at my head level. When i do this, the wind push effect keeps him in the air just a bit and leaves him hanging right there to be punished. I've now set myself up for a perfect opportunity to f-smash him. He can't avoid this and the wind push effect basically gave me a sort of wall to punish him.

I'm going to have to test this. If it sounds as good as you make it do in theory, then this may be what makes it useful.

Another way of using this is to use it as an approach against a projectile. For this example i will take pikachu. His full jump neutral b is very campy and effective. I could easily just try to mirror the electricity back at him. I don't know if anyone has played a pikachu that does this, but its really not effective and wont stop the pikachu. When you use a mirror shield, you cant follow up after the move. It basically just adding damage (assuming you hit the character) and it normally ends up with an even trade. The mirror shield will leave you vulnerable due to its lag if you pull it out expecting a projectile.(i just realized this was probably not the best hypothetical situation, but you get the idea)

In the same situation, I can wingdash to cancel out this projectile and follow up with a forward smash, or w/e else i want to really. Wingdashing is really good at approaching projectiles, even pits arrow is canceled out with a wing dash. Basically its an effective way to close space while going through a projectile. This does take some timing though, about the same timing as a powershield, maybe with a few extra frames. Powershielding works, but you don't close that gap and cant punish fast enough. With wingdashing you can actually hit your opponent before they get out of their lag time from the projectile.

Another thing I'll have to test. I get the feeling that plain shield dashing or jumping would work better, but we'll see.

Finally, wingdashing prevents you from getting grabbed. I find this most helpful against long ranged grabs such as link, or ice climbers (they can combo you up to 70% with a grab you you gotta be cautious). Taking into consideration that you can do this move out of a shield, you can avoid being grabbed if you can predict it right (big if i know..). However there is also times when its obvious that your opponent wants to shield grab you, take that into considerations and you can do some pretty cool stuffs. If your opponent dodges, most the time you can get the down smash off as they come out of the dodge, if they don't dodge early enough, then you push them out of range with wing push.

Now this applictation doesn't look useful at all. What ever happened to spotdodging?

 

[sagemoon]

Wing shoving on grenades and bananas was one of the first things I tried to do. Catching and throwing the items is better. Pushing people off the edge seems like a really risky thing to do, with little reward. You have to be up close and vulnerable to use this. Your opponent could grab or attack you if you try. Even if you succeed, it's like you said, it doesn't kill.

I think you misinterpreted the ledge thing. I'm saying to do this while you are on the ledge. You get the wind push while you are below the stage, and then you grab the ledge again. it doesnt leave you vulnerable at all because you never pop your head above the stage.

Now this applictation doesn't look useful at all. What ever happened to spotdodging?

spot dodgeing is also useful, but at the same time theres less options for spacing. Having both to use makes more options. And mixing those options are what creates style and eventually dominance of the game.

 

[rezen1337]

Another way of using this is to use it as an approach against a projectile. For this example i will take pikachu. His full jump neutral b is very campy and effective. I could easily just try to mirror the electricity back at him. I don't know if anyone has played a pikachu that does this, but its really not effective and wont stop the pikachu. When you use a mirror shield, you cant follow up after the move. It basically just adding damage (assuming you hit the character) and it normally ends up with an even trade. The mirror shield will leave you vulnerable due to its lag if you pull it out expecting a projectile.(i just realized this was probably not the best hypothetical situation, but you get the idea)

In the same situation, I can wingdash to cancel out this projectile and follow up with a forward smash, or w/e else i want to really. Wingdashing is really good at approaching projectiles, even pits arrow is canceled out with a wing dash. Basically its an effective way to close space while going through a projectile. This does take some timing though, about the same timing as a powershield, maybe with a few extra frames. Powershielding works, but you don't close that gap and cant punish fast enough. With wingdashing you can actually hit your opponent before they get out of their lag time from the projectile.

From what I got out of this, I get the feeling that energy based projectiles can be canceled when timing the Wingdash correctly. Is this correct?

I honestly don't know that much about this, since I've yet to try it out in various situations. If this were the case, however, I can see how Wingdashing could be a lot more useful than I (or anyone else) initially thought. It would be a great approach to projectile campers, but, unfortunately, not those that actually use material objects.


As for Wingshoving, I find that applying it in the middle of a heated battle in the center of a stage wouldn't really do much for you. Sure, there's little lag upon landing, but then there's the fact that, depending on the move your opponent used, there will be little lag for them as well. From what sagemoon said, dropping from the ledge and using it would probably be the most ideal situation to use it.

 

[sagemoon]

It works for all low projectiles basically. It doesnt work for samus's fully charged up b. But it does against every other projectile. Even material objects. Item projectiles will just be pushed back.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

I had the positions reversed in your ledge scenario. Let another thing I'll have to come back to you on.

spot dodgeing is also useful, but at the same time theres less options for spacing. Having both to use makes more options. And mixing those options are what creates style and eventually dominance of the game.

Okay, you're going to be hard pressed to show me how wings can be useful here. At that close of range, there's no way to tell if your opponent is going to do a grab or an attack. Wings may stop the grab, but it won't always work against the attack. Spotdodging avoids both. Because you can't do this on reaction, you have to depend on chance, and your best chance is with spotdodging.

 

[sagemoon]

you dont need to do it on reaction, When i wingdash in those situations, i normally go back a bit and f-tilt (thus being out of range for an attack) this is because if the player knows you're gonna spotdodge, you're gonna get punished as to if he knows you're gonna wingdash, you just end up where you started. See what i'm saying? You can also mix up where you're gonna wingdash as opposed to when you spot dodge you stay in the same place. They are both very useful and depending on the situation, one will be more useful. Its all about the mindgames XD

 

[kupo15]

The only way others were describing it was like a wavedash. I'll admit I haven't looked into it too in-depth. But as I did list dashing, and/or fox trotting as an alternative that gives more options.

Lol. Here I was responding as if I thought you knew what Wingdashing was and thought it was useless. I'm sorry, you should have said that you didn't look into it in depth. Then I would have mentioned how Sagemoon seems to have success and knows how to use the tech well. I unfortunately don't know how to apply it yet. Sad I know.

I'm going to have to test this. If it sounds as good as you make it do in theory, then this may be what makes it useful.

These are good things to know sagemoon. Maybe you can make an instructional video since you seem to have a good understanding of this tech.

Thank you for taking this maturely, I'm really impressed.

.

Thanks! I'm impressed that you were brave enough to stand out and voice your opinion on these matters!

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

you dont need to do it on reaction, When i wingdash in those situations, i normally go back a bit and f-tilt (thus being out of range for an attack) this is because if the player knows you're gonna spotdodge, you're gonna get punished as to if he knows you're gonna wingdash, you just end up where you started. See what i'm saying? You can also mix up where you're gonna wingdash as opposed to when you spot dodge you stay in the same place. They are both very useful and depending on the situation, one will be more useful. Its all about the mindgames XD

\

But if you wing dash and he knows it, can't he dash attack you?

 

[ChokE]

you dont need to do it on reaction, When i wingdash in those situations, i normally go back a bit and f-tilt (thus being out of range for an attack) this is because if the player knows you're gonna spotdodge, you're gonna get punished as to if he knows you're gonna wingdash, you just end up where you started. See what i'm saying? You can also mix up where you're gonna wingdash as opposed to when you spot dodge you stay in the same place. They are both very useful and depending on the situation, one will be more useful. Its all about the mindgames XD

In my opinion, i always want to stay close with Pit because most of his attacks have shorter range compare to other characters.

What i think (maybe Rhy also) is that we should try to get the basic down first and get really good that it before moving on the these "Adv." tech

 

[kotahlicious]

so bacially wingdashing in use-less now but with more discovery could work. and wing shoving is very situational and push back nades. arrow looping i think is usefull as a mind game and a little damage if they dont airdodge seem liek not mush else for arrow looping

 

[Admiral Pit]

I'm still keeping my arrow looping, but as for the arrow swarming... I may have to let that go.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

Lol. Here I was responding as if I thought you knew what Wingdashing was and thought it was useless. I'm sorry, you should have said that you didn't look into it in depth. Then I would have mentioned how Sagemoon seems to have success and knows how to use the tech well. I unfortunately don't know how to apply it yet. Sad I know.

I made the bad assumption that everything there was to know about wingdashing was in the first post of the topic. I shouldn't have done that. But could you update the first post? It could prevent confusion like mine.

What i think (maybe Rhy also) is that we should try to get the basic down first and get really good that it before moving on the these "Adv." tech

Well, yes, I do think we should do the basics before any adv tech, but this thread was made to argue whether or not these techs should be used at all.

so bacially wingdashing in use-less now but with more discovery could work. and wing shoving is very situational and push back nades. arrow looping i think is usefull as a mind game and a little damage if they dont airdodge seem liek not mush else for arrow looping

WingDashing may or may not be useless. There are a couple of things to try out first.

Wing shoving should never be used for pushing grenades! It's much MUCH more advantageous to catch them and throw them back. And in the example that Sagemoon gave about preventing grenade shields, you should grab Snake and throw him.

 

[sagemoon]

\

But if you wing dash and he knows it, can't he dash attack you?

the forward tilt will out prioritize it.

In my opinion, i always want to stay close with Pit because most of his attacks have shorter range compare to other characters.

What i think (maybe Rhy also) is that we should try to get the basic down first and get really good that it before moving on the these "Adv." tech

Lets say you want to stay close all the time. You can get shield grabbed, shield to smash, or a lot of other actions can be used to punish you. f-tilt has insane range, use it to out range people.

Anyone should learn the basics first before advanced stuff ever heard of "biting more than you can chew" take it one step at a time.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

The forward tilt is slow coming out, and most dash attacks come out instantly.

If you want to use wing dashing to "end up where you started," why not roll instead? Rolling is faster then dashing, and you get invincibility frames.

 

[kupo15]

rolling is much slower than wingdashing because there is more startup and ending lag in a roll than a wingdash. If you look at my video, there is at least one where I come out of a Wingdash really fast. The animation looks really weird. When I get better, Ill post a better one.

I most certainly will update my Wingdashing OP. What confused you so I know what to change?

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

Confusion was the wrong term, I should have said uninformed. All you have to do is put all the discoveries and theories in the first post, and that should help.

 

[kupo15]

Ok. I don't know when you looked at it but It originally was title "Nice Spacing Applications" then Variation two, Wingdashing, snowballed and I forgot to erase everything but Wingdashing.

Well, yes, I do think we should do the basics before any adv tech, but this thread was made to argue whether or not these techs should be used at all.

So this was your intention? Maybe a change of title to "A serious discussion about Adv Tech" would be more appropriate because the current title makes it sound like you are making a statement. It can also put anyone on the defensive even before opening your thread, especially those whom this topic refers to. Just a thought.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

When I made the thread, I honestly didn't see any saving graces to these techs (I still might not), and no one told me any in this thread for the longest time. Putting people on the defensive can work sometimes. It makes people feel like they have something invested or to defend, and then they'll work that much harder at seeing all the arguments and making their own. Look at all the replies this thread has gotten.

Also, I was making a resolution (Although it should have had the word "should" in it to make it proper) like you would in a debate. In this case I'm the affirmative, and most people coming in choose to be the negative. There's nothing wrong with have two completely opposing sides.

 

[kupo15]

Ok. Nice tactic because it worked. Sorry I'm not much of a debator.
I edited my Wingdashing post, is it better?

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

I'm not much of a debater either. I took one class in middle school, and my team always lost because of me.

Okay, you're post is easier to understand now, but what I specifically wanted to see was a mentioning of Sagemoon's application for countering projectiles and air approaches. Thanks for putting the time into this.

 

[kupo15]

Your welcome. I'll copy it from this thread and put Sagemoon's video up since mine is really crappy.

 

[sagemoon]

Its hard to counter projectiles and aerial approaches online (takes timing of powershielding like i mentioned), so if i do have a recording w/ kupo15 it will probably be staged just to show the tech, keep that in mind. However it still works well enough for spacing to be effective online in my opinion.

Also to what Rhy said earlier about the dash attack. Forward tilt comes out faster than a dash attack out of shield. Expecially if you space it well. Plus its not meant to be used to "go back where you started" but it gives the option if you dont punish them correctly. Basically it becomes a win-win situation.

 

[kupo15]

Wingdashing has been updated with videos of Sagemoon using it in battle. I think it is proof to show that Wingdashing is in fact useful. Thanks Sagemoon!

 

[sagemoon]

No problem, I'm just glad I was able to record today w/ my friend.

 

[Ultimatum479]

Ouch. I think those vids, especially the second, ***** this discussion.

 

[xS A M U R A Ix]

I agree with all of this. People get caught up with silly techniques and forget how to really play the game. Being a solid player is much more important than any impractical "advanced" technique that's discovered. Just focus on not getting hit, your spacing, and your opponents tendencies. That's all you need.

 

[kown]

I agree with all of this. People get caught up with silly techniques and forget how to really play the game. Being a solid player is much more important than any impractical "advanced" technique that's discovered. Just focus on not getting hit, your spacing, and your opponents tendencies. That's all you need.

i think the idea is right, however i dont think these ATs are silly and these ATs help you space and not get hit.

 

[Undrdog]

My main objective when fighting is to make my opponent off balance and to make him look bad. Not all mindgames are spacing and tricking. ^_^

Anyway, things that make my opponents look and hopefully feel silly...

Arrow Chasing
Arrow Swarming
Angel Ring Dropping
Arrow Looping
Luigi's Mansion Comboing
Uair Chaining
Reflecting projectiles
Reversing their attacks.
SlideStepping
Constant Powershielding

You almost never see me not doing one of these things. Getting any of them off in succession will usually throw your opponent off his game. I know it sounds like I'm exaggerating this, but I was pumbling Metaknights all over the place. They were faster but they couldn't keep from getting hit by things they either couldn't see coming or being constantly confused by how I was going to approach them.


In the end, Pit can make people look and feel very silly.

 

[Admiral Pit]

Glideshifting, and arrow looping have proved useful, and therefore im keeping them.
Reflecting their projectiles, and reversing their attacks is simply something else im keeping.
These Simple Adv. Techs are useful to me in battle.
You can be amazed about how good these tricks are against certain characters.

 

[CorruptFate]

So is the debate over then I liked reading everyone posts?

Ry this should be renamed The Pit AT debate thread

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

The debate's doesn't have to be over. Arrow looping has become a neutral issue. Wing shoving only possesses a couple uses, and some of those are still arguable. I've been too busy lately to test Wingdashing. I'll bring that back up when I get the chance.

Changing the thread name at this point could confuse people. Besides, there's the reason it sets people up.

When I made the thread, I honestly didn't see any saving graces to these techs (I still might not), and no one told me any in this thread for the longest time. Putting people on the defensive can work sometimes. It makes people feel like they have something invested or to defend, and then they'll work that much harder at seeing all the arguments and making their own. Look at all the replies this thread has gotten.

Also, I was making a resolution (Although it should have had the word "should" in it to make it proper) like you would in a debate. In this case I'm the affirmative, and most people coming in choose to be the negative. There's nothing wrong with have two completely opposing sides.

 

[CorruptFate]

Just saying stuff I guess after some uses I think that arrow looping isn't bad when yur against people when the risk is to great to chase them it does through them off and can gimp recovery and does build up damage and the power with each arrow that you shoot to that you can mix death by recovery and arrow looping.

 

[kupo15]

I think arrow chasing can be a little more effective after you have hit the person away and you are descending in the air. That way your opponent won't know you are arrow looping because you don't give away any hints in the air as you would on the ground.