At what skill level do low tiers no longer stand a chance?

[Dan Salvato]

We all know by now that the skill spectrum in Melee is astronomical. My friend, who can **** me in Melee, gets ***** by other players, who get ***** by other players, who get *****, who get *****. It just keeps going.

So my question/discussion is, at what point in the skill spectrum do low tiers no longer stand a chance? My friend's DK can really hurt my Falco, and I've beaten Marths with my Link. However, one couldn't enter a decent tournament with Link and expect to walk out placing very high. Or could they?

Do you have to be among the greatest players in the world for tiers to really start to matter? High tier characters "feel" a lot better than low tier characters, but it seems to me like it just depends on who's the better player - regardless of character - until you and your opponent start nearing total perfection. Thoughts?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Not until tippy top level.

Unless you're going as low as Bowser or something. In which case it depends on how dumb the opponent is willing to be versus Bowser.

 

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

I'm guessing tier lists are merely based on potential. Nobody is perfect, that also applies to melee. Even if this (almost) never-ending **** cycle occurs, there is no completely perfect player. Everyone (people) has flaws and different tactics. Same with characters. Character choice matters a lot but not nearly as much as the skill of the gamer. If I had a second controller plugged in, played as Pichu or Kirby, and fought a Fox and had them stand still the whole fight, the tier list wouldn't influence the fight. Tier lists merely measure how some characters can deal with more diverse situations than other characters. Because nobody is perfect, the tier list isn't perfect. Why has it changed over time? Nobody is perfect at this game, at least that I know of. I don't know any players who can think through individual frames as normal gameplay time passes while they fight someone; perfectly and without flaw, at least.

However, I believe in the tier lists somewhat, a skilled Bowser would not do too well against an equally-skilled player choosing Falco, Marth, etc.

 

[Rob_Gambino]

When the player is bad, they don't stand a chance.

 

[Massive]

The Tier list is based on tournament placings and backroom viability discussions.

There have been many instances of lower tiered characters increasing on the list as the metagame changes (jigglypuff, ice climbers, peach).

Low tier characters are never down and out, even at higher levels of play. They are just harder to be good with in some instances but still have value. The Armada Young Link vs Hbox's Jiggs debacle should be clear evidence of this.

 

[Thanos828]

While I don't mean to promote using low tier characters, it is often found that good players may not know matchups against low tier characters just because of how infrequent they play them. This isn't a carry all advantage, nor should it be confided in, but it does have significance. Some players may not know how other characters get things done. I didn't know that bomb to dair was a good killing move for Y. Link until I saw that set at Genesis 2. I believe personally that was one of the standing points in Armada v. Hbox.

 

[KirbyKaze]

The tier list gets kind of clunky for placement after the first dozen characters or so. The next batch is hard to order because low representation, weird matchup viability, and it's hard to make statements about potential when barely anyone uses them.

Some of them have really extreme MUs in that their good MUs are reasonably good with just a handful of really bad MUs. A good example would be Young Link. He's got a tough time - Fox ***** him hard, Sheik ***** him pretty hard, Falco's rough, Falcon's bad, etc. But he's got some pretty decent niche MUs in there (Puff, Peach, ICs, maybe Samus, etc.) so he's got some appealing qualities. And it's debatable how bad some of his bad MUs are, I guess, because there's not many good people playing him (hidden potential!). And even if they are bad MUs, having the opponent's inexperience working for you can be really good and it comes up a lot.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

We need to see the return of low tier tournaments.

Its embarrassing how underdeveloped some of our low tiers are. Even the ones higher up, like Link and Y. Link, are straight 2006 status compared to the high tiers. There have been like 3 total DK players the last 5 years, and hes not even that bad!

(compared to the super low tiers that is)

 

[Thanos828]

The tier list gets kind of clunky for placement after the first dozen characters or so. The next batch is hard to order because low representation, weird matchup viability, and it's hard to make statements about potential when barely anyone uses them.

Some of them have really extreme MUs in that their good MUs are reasonably good with just a handful of really bad MUs. A good example would be Young Link. He's got a tough time - Fox ***** him hard, Sheik ***** him pretty hard, Falco's rough, Falcon's bad, etc. But he's got some pretty decent niche MUs in there (Puff, Peach, ICs, maybe Samus, etc.) so he's got some appealing qualities. And it's debatable how bad some of his bad MUs are, I guess, because there's not many good people playing him (hidden potential!). And even if they are bad MUs, having the opponent's inexperience working for you can be really good and it comes up a lot.

It also depends on how common the bad matchup is. If you are potentially a good character but Fox hard counters you it'll be much more difficult to exist in the metagame.

 

[Oracle]

I know im gonna get sht for this, but i think that low tiers are always somewhat viable if the player is on top of their game with that character, as shown by good players doing well with flawed characers (axe, taj, to a lesser extent shroomed, eddie mexico, etc.). Even though dk is bad, if i can outplay my opponent with good baits, mindgames, and spacing, as well as converting every possible hit into a huge combo, its possible to beat them.

Its just that playing like i described is damn near impossible to do consistently. Also, that only really applies to the non bottom tiers.

 

[Thanos828]

Its just that playing like i described is damn near impossible to do consistently. Also, that only really applies to the non bottom tiers.

I'd say it's even harder to keep consistent with a character that demands so many inputs and so much tech skill like Fox.

 

[Kal]

For some characters, just discovering little options, like how to punish your opponent's whiffs, can take an extreme amount of work. Some would argue that simply doing what's easy for many better characters demands so much effort with most low-tiers that the characters are simply unviable in practice.

Of course, the characters are also really bad.

 

[Thanos828]

For some characters, just discovering little options, like how to punish your opponent's whiffs, can take an extreme amount of work. Some would argue that simply doing what's easy for many better characters demands so much effort with most low-tiers that the characters are simply unviable in practice.

Of course, the characters are also really bad.

I think Mango's already noted verbally how bad Mario is.

 

[Sinji]

Wait till you see Ness

 

[KirbyKaze]

Most people will never get to the level where their character is the only thing holding them back.

 

[Masmasher@]

though most of the characters stand a chance until a very high skill level in play
some times you see things being exploited at the lower level. albeit yes it is not the best level of play but its to a point where you see the lack of low tiers options really become a noticable thorn in play

no offence but yoshi not being able to jump cancel is something that really sticks out even at mid level type play
just a example though

 

[The Tycon]

I think the key to winning matchups with low tiers is that they would have to be better at mindgames, baiting, prediction and things that every character can do. "Don't get hit" is probably the best strategy when it comes to the low tiers.

 

[Dan Salvato]

I've been having a lot of run recognizing the limitations and doing what I can to work around them, as well as mindgame the opponent.

I find that as a low tier, you really need to think a heck of a lot more to put up a fight against your opponent. You're forced to read the opponent a lot more and react accordingly. It's probably really good training, actually.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

There is no level. Mewtwo, who in the early days was considered the worst character in the game, just got 3rd place at a nationals.

 

[Strong Badam]

Mewtwo didn't get 3rd. Taj (who used Marth for the most part, but that's besides the point) did. I hate people.

Most people will never get to the level where their character is the only thing holding them back.

This

 

[~Twitch~]

yoshi is a ****ing awesome character. :D

 

[Battlecow]

Yeah, m2 didn't get 3rd. Marth did. The only hard set Taj used m2 in was one he lost (I believe).

 

[SamusPoop]

I feel They might be useable till any level if their flaws can be covered up well enough partly my thing about marth his moves will never stay out long enough or fare well overall against sheilds or whiffs like even DK's bair can get away with a whiff bair, f-tilt.

 

[JPOBS]

We need to see the return of low tier tournaments.

Its embarrassing how underdeveloped some of our low tiers are. Even the ones higher up, like Link and Y. Link, are straight 2006 status compared to the high tiers. There have been like 3 total DK players the last 5 years, and hes not even that bad!

(compared to the super low tiers that is)

the problem with this is that low tier vs low tier isn't very exciting.

I mean, no one is lining up to play Roy vs Game and Watch.

What's exciting is seeing those low tiers used well to exploit high tier weaknesses. (like how nearly all the low tiers have a 02D chaingrab on FF, or y.link vs puff)

low tier tournaments in themselves are pretty meh imo.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

YLink vs Puff was NOT exciting. I'd rather watch Kirby dittos.

 

[t3h Icy]

Hack vs t!mmy?

 

[Strong Badam]

I like low tier tournaments.

 

[Bones0]

Crimson is sooooo right about how pathetic our low tiers' metagames are. We definitely need to host low tier tourneys, even if it's just for $1 or free entry. I used to think low tier tournaments were never as fun as they should be because of how low tier vs. low tier matchups go. Then I realized that people just don't like fighting against low tiers, regardless of how good their own character is. Or at least that's how I feel about it. I enjoy learning to play against new characters, but trying to figure it out mid-tournament match as I get gimped or gimmicked is just frustrating.

Just from my own experience, it sucks to be watching videos and practicing all of this stuff related to my Falco vs. the top 10 or so characters, and then I have to play against a character who I understand almost nothing about as well as having to use a low tier of my own. I would even consider myself pretty familiar with my Ness, and I use him pretty often within my smash circle of 2, but when I go to smashfests/tourneys I never worry about improving my Ness because it's valuable practice I can't afford to give up with my Falco.

Low tier tournaments would give people a good opportunity and incentive to improve their low tiers, and I'm sure if they became more common and mainstream then that awkward discomfort with all of the low tiers, including the one you play, would eventually dissipate.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I'd really like to use my Zelda more, but it's simply not a character that's going to win. Why play Zelda vs Marth, when I can play Peach vs Marth, and get practice in an important MU? I DEFINITELY support the idea of low tier tournaments. If you don't like watching/playing, then don't go, but this certainly needs to happen.

 

[choknater]

genesis 2 top 4 and also hack vs ice are among my favorites of late bracket low tier matches

 

[Sinji]

lol. dividing low tiers from high tiers.

 

[christianizcool]

There is no level. Mewtwo, who in the early days was considered the worst character in the game, just got 3rd place at a nationals.

I loved watching that set personally... I mean, there was a lot of camping filler in there but when they actually went at it I was on the edge of my seat. The last minute and a half of game one was probably my favorite moment of all the Genesis 2 videos