At Smash's Gate - The Doom Marine/Doomguy/Doom Slayer Thread

axel_

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So I was gonna ask if there were any decent renders for the Doom Eternal monsters for my Fighter Concept update I'm doing, but then I saw this.
The consensus is that it's fake. It's been far too long to be believable anymore, if it was in the first place. We may never know how exactly it was made or who actually made the Caco Mii thing, but something like that wouldn't just get leaked, not show up in a number of later reveals/directs, while other Mii stuff for the game has come and gone, all the while still having the video of it up and never taken down like usual legit leaked stuff.

I guess it depends on when Eternal finishes getting ported and released for Switch as to when a potential spirit event could happen, which is safe to say would still be before SSBU DLC season 2 ends... Just give cool spirit battles for like the Pain Elemental, Marauder, and Archvile if nothing else.
*sigh*
I can't believe people are liking this as if they would agree with it. It's honestly disheartening as a huge Doomguy supporter.
There is nothing—not even the timing, to suggest that it's fake. The hats are far more high quality than any actual Ultimate mod has been able to replicate with model swaps. There was a whole thing in the Geno server a couple months ago about one key detail: These mods have a sideburn problem to give limitations to hair, something that the Cacodemon and Mallow hats don't have.

As far as it taking so long, there's no reason they wouldn't save them for later. Since the second pass was very likely greenlit in July, they would've started on what ever fighter had the Doom Mii Costume at that time. And since it's much faster for these professionals to make the costumes than full Fighters so they can save it as long as they need to.

I could probably go on and on about things with Cacomallow, so just throw your questions and doubts at me, I guess.

EDIT: I forgot a part you brought up: Nintendo would not take it down, they aren't idiots. If they take down videos for a leak after most people have already seen it, then people would automatically know it's real. Even though the news is already out, it's a much safer move for them to let the flame kindle out and have pessimistic fools such as yourself lose interest in it.
 
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Ridley_Prime

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So I was gonna ask if there were any decent renders for the Doom Eternal monsters for my Fighter Concept update I'm doing, but then I saw this.


*sigh*
I can't believe people are liking this as if they would agree with it. It's honestly disheartening as a huge Doomguy supporter.
There is nothing—not even the timing, to suggest that it's fake. The hats are far more high quality than any actual Ultimate mod has been able to replicate with model swaps. There was a whole thing in the Geno server a couple months ago about one key detail: These mods have a sideburn problem to give limitations to hair, something that the Cacodemon and Mallow hats don't have.

As far as it taking so long, there's no reason they wouldn't save them for later. Since the second pass was very likely greenlit in July, they would've started on what ever fighter had the Doom Mii Costume at that time. And since it's much faster for these professionals to make the costumes than full Fighters so they can save it as long as they need to.

I could probably go on and on about things with Cacomallow, so just throw your questions and doubts at me, I guess.

EDIT: I forgot a part you brought up: Nintendo would not take it down, they aren't idiots. If they take down videos for a leak after most people have already seen it, then people would automatically know it's real. Even though the news is already out, it's a much safer move for them to let the flame kindle out and have pessimistic fools such as yourself lose interest in it.
Sorry to be the voicing boogeyman here that thinks otherwise about Cacomallow now, but I'm far from the only one whose not sold on it at this point; not just on this site but in general, though would like to be wrong, as Doomslayer's my most wanted character now, but gotta consider every possibility, even one like Doom Eternal getting a spirit event when it finishes getting ported to Switch.

I was here during the speculation eras of previous Smash's. I've seen videos of legit leaked stuff quickly taken down, like 3DS gameplay of SSB4 Shulk before he was officially revealed, so please, you'll have to do better than that to paint me as a fool.

edit: To shift from the unwarranted hostility towards me, was gonna share this earlier but forgot, but Eternal landed in top 15 best seller of Japan's PS4 store. Final nail to the Doom has no footprint in Japan theory. The series is truly back.

image0.jpg
 
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axel_

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I was here during the speculation eras of previous Smash's. I've seen videos of legit leaked stuff quickly taken down, like 3DS gameplay of SSB4 Shulk before he was officially revealed, so please, you'll have to do better than that to paint me as a fool.
We aren't in that era anymore. The size of Smash leak and speculation culture compared to the 3DS and Wii U era. With much less eyes focused on it, it would be much easier for Nintendo to take down videos of the gameplay for a game that hadn't released at all yet. Cacomallow was released at a period where Smash leaks like this were about as mainstream as they've ever been. They have no reason to take down content for something that isn't planned for release for several months for a game that already released nearly one year prior.
 

Ridley_Prime

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Yeah, no reason other than you know, copyright. Nintendo tends to be as serious in wanting to shut down leaks for DLC as much as that of their base games before release. Nothing to prove otherwise, especially with how strict they’ve always been on youtube particularly.
 

Holphino

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I don't know if Cacomallow is real or not at this point. For my own sake, i'm just gonna assume it's fake. You make some great points though axel_ axel_ , i'll certainly give you that.
 
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Hush, my child. We must not lose faith just yet, lest all our efforts be in vain.

Then again, this is assuming Doomguy is still a popular request come next Smash game.
At least he still got an active series, compared to poor fellow rumored character Hayabusa. He'll be in the public eye for a bit.
 

Ridley_Prime

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Doom is doing better in Japan now than it probably ever has before, along with becoming one of Bethesda's top three IP's at least from the Eternal sales alone (yeah, the homebound pandemic times helped a bit, but the same holds true for Animal Crossing New Horizons and other recently released games). Even if Doomguy isn't in FP2, he'll definitely be in the public eye for awhile/years to come.
 
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Ridley_Prime

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That bloody image with Bowser, while cool, would definitely not happen for Smash.
 
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Speaking of the Mother Demon, i think her design could be too gorey for Smash because of her back but it's still a cool design.
Not sure what she had for cut attacks but i know about the cut D64 enemies, at least.
I hope they make a "classic" skin for the Unmaykr in Eternal, because the D64 weapon looks amazing.
If they bring back the Harvester, give him something like "heals itself by harvesting the player's health and can also heal nearby demons".
I wonder how they can expand Urdak, because Hell in Doom always felt like "actual Hell but with weird elements on top" and Urdak is too much of a unique version of Heaven that i can't see that many parallels to Hell.
Speaking of the Super Gore Nest, this is cool:
https://twitter.com/kinsie/status/1255134009530576896
Oh and Doom mapper RottKing made Doom/Heretic wall textures for Animal Crossing, if you check his twitter.
That Halo/Doom mod looks cool.
When someone brings up Quake Champions: Doom Edition, i feel like mentioning Samsara is another great example of a "FPS Smash" mod.
I'm surprised nobody here mentioned the situation regarding Mick Gordon and the OST issue because of Bethesda, but if i recall, he may soon actually finish mixing it, so that whole topic could be put to rest.
Also, there's now actual official, real life Doom Eternal Doomguy dolls.
 

Powerman293

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Does it even really matter is CacoMallow is real or not? I know some people point to Square Enix only wanting costumes with their characters, but for all we know they could make an exception for Mario RPG characters. Similarly with the CacoDemon mii costume and Slayer. Doesn't indicate anything really.
 
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I didnt know about QCDE until PublicServant posted that video, and it seems very fun. Dusk dude getting in is also neat since I fell in love with that game just a couple months ago. Although I have always wondered why we never got a real "FPS Smash", it seems like it would print money if you ask me
 
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So I was gonna ask if there were any decent renders for the Doom Eternal monsters for my Fighter Concept update I'm doing, but then I saw this.


*sigh*
I can't believe people are liking this as if they would agree with it. It's honestly disheartening as a huge Doomguy supporter.
There is nothing—not even the timing, to suggest that it's fake. The hats are far more high quality than any actual Ultimate mod has been able to replicate with model swaps. There was a whole thing in the Geno server a couple months ago about one key detail: These mods have a sideburn problem to give limitations to hair, something that the Cacodemon and Mallow hats don't have.

As far as it taking so long, there's no reason they wouldn't save them for later. Since the second pass was very likely greenlit in July, they would've started on what ever fighter had the Doom Mii Costume at that time. And since it's much faster for these professionals to make the costumes than full Fighters so they can save it as long as they need to.

I could probably go on and on about things with Cacomallow, so just throw your questions and doubts at me, I guess.

EDIT: I forgot a part you brought up: Nintendo would not take it down, they aren't idiots. If they take down videos for a leak after most people have already seen it, then people would automatically know it's real. Even though the news is already out, it's a much safer move for them to let the flame kindle out and have pessimistic fools such as yourself lose interest in it.
There is absolutely no indication that the quality of the hats are much better than what people have been able to come up with a week., especially in a blurry video where certain "mistakes" can be covered up. If you really want to point to little things such as "sideburn" when modders have been able to add in jiggles for the Mallow hat, then it's damn obvious it's not something that's insurmountable.

Also let's play devil's advocate - if the video was real, it had to be from a developer's version given that outside teams (localization, marketing) don't have that. For something so top secret to be casually revealed would be such a huge breach of NDA that Nintendo would have to nuke it from youtube. You really think companies will leave out materials that are so far down the pipeline....oh wait we did get something like that (Sony/ND with the Last of us 2, and the game was only a couple of months out).
I understand that you're passionate about it and its good, but please look at things with a critical eye,.

Does it even really matter is CacoMallow is real or not? I know some people point to Square Enix only wanting costumes with their characters, but for all we know they could make an exception for Mario RPG characters. Similarly with the CacoDemon mii costume and Slayer. Doesn't indicate anything really.
Oh yes definitely true. Mii Costumes are not necessarily an indication of playability. We have a long history of Heihachi, Geno, Llyod, Sans....just being there as a mii costume. It doesn't mean that a playable character has to be included as well!
Sorry to be the voicing boogeyman here that thinks otherwise about Cacomallow now, but I'm far from the only one whose not sold on it at this point; not just on this site but in general, though would like to be wrong, as Doomslayer's my most wanted character now, but gotta consider every possibility, even one like Doom Eternal getting a spirit event when it finishes getting ported to Switch.

I was here during the speculation eras of previous Smash's. I've seen videos of legit leaked stuff quickly taken down, like 3DS gameplay of SSB4 Shulk before he was officially revealed, so please, you'll have to do better than that to paint me as a fool.

edit: To shift from the unwarranted hostility towards me, was gonna share this earlier but forgot, but Eternal landed in top 15 best seller of Japan's PS4 store. Final nail to the Doom has no footprint in Japan theory. The series is truly back.

View attachment 270200
Doom is doing better in Japan now than it probably ever has before, along with becoming one of Bethesda's top three IP's at least from the Eternal sales alone (yeah, the homebound pandemic times helped a bit, but the same holds true for Animal Crossing New Horizons and other recently released games). Even if Doomguy isn't in FP2, he'll definitely be in the public eye for awhile/years to come.
That doesn't tell me anything - games can be on the top listing for a week before falling off hard. In fact, if you look at the actual sales figure, its only 3k for the PS4 version in Japan in its first week. That's still abysmal for a series that wants to be included in a crossover that is produced with its Japanese audience in mind too.
 
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Ridley_Prime

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So Doom may be on Metroid's level or so when it comes to Japanese sales at worst... That's still more than people were giving credit for it before. And y'know that last sentence was what people used to say against the idea of Ridley and Dark Samus being in, on that note. Only difference here of course is that they're 1st party, but the standards for 3rd parties are not as restrictive now as they once were. Doom is iconic, Sakurai gave a solid word on John Carmack and his influence on the FPS genre... Doomguy has a fair shot, even if I doubt his chances now.
 

Koopaul

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What helped Ridley and Dark Samus was the years of fan requests. The fan requests for Doom in Smash are relatively recent.
 

Ridley_Prime

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Yeah, but the requests for Doom quickly growing and blossoming as it did following the series' biggest reboot in 2016 was a perfect storm, even if it started a bit after the ballot.
 
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What Ridley_Prime said.

2016's supposedly impossible port to the Switch caused the support for Doom Slayer in Smash to skyrocket, and it shot up even further with the announcement of all Doom games beforehand and Doom Eternal coming to Switch (Not specifically in that order, but still). Though it has died down a little with the January interview, it's still mighty strong, and we have until the end of next year for all the characters in Fighters Pass Vol. 2 to be subsequentially revealed and released, and the amount of support the Slayer has had all throughout the base game and Fighters Pass Vol. 1 is sure to influence Nintendo's selection for this new Fighters Pass.
 
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Koopaul

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I still don't think that's good enough. Maybe. I'm not saying Doom doesn't have a chance. But something to consider about Nintendo is how little they listen to fans.

This is a case of Horton Hears A Who. Where fans need to be loud enough long enough for Nintendo to hear and respond. Mega loud. For YEARS.

90% of the time Nintendo does what they want. They're notorious at not listening to consumer needs, and ignoring fanbases.
 
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Buzzwole

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I still don't think that's good enough. Maybe. I'm not saying Doom doesn't have a chance. But something to consider about Nintendo is how little they listen to fans.

This is a case of Horton Hears A Who. Where fans need to be loud enough long enough for Nintendo to hear and respond. Mega loud. For YEARS.

90% of the time Nintendo does what they want. They're notorious at not listening to consumer needs, and ignoring fanbases.
How can you look at Ultimate's roster and think that Nintendo doesn't listen to fans.
At least in terms of Smash Bros, they're really good at listening to fans.
 
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How can you look at Ultimate's roster and think that Nintendo doesn't listen to fans.
At least in terms of Smash Bros, they're really good at listening to fans.
Yeah, of course! After Ridley, King K. Rool, and Banjo & Kazooie if we put base game and DLC together, how could you say they don't listen to their fans? Also, with Nintendo selecting the characters for Fighters Pass Vol. 2, and to my knowledge they haven't turned a blind eye to fan requests, Doom Slayer's attracting a lot of attention here, whether it's the Animal Crossing director noticing those Isabelle/Slayer fan arts or through congregations of people wanting the Slayer in Smash (Including our own thread, actually!).
 
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Yeah, of course! After Ridley, King K. Rool, and Banjo & Kazooie if we put base game and DLC together, how could you say they don't listen to their fans? Also, with Nintendo selecting the characters for Fighters Pass Vol. 2, and to my knowledge they haven't turned a blind eye to fan requests, Doom Slayer's attracting a lot of attention here, whether it's the Animal Crossing director noticing those Isabelle/Slayer fan arts or through congregations of people wanting the Slayer in Smash (Including our own thread, actually!).
On the flipside, though, it DID take a Ballot for Nintendo to listen to fans, so it's hard to say how much they know.
 

Ridley_Prime

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Yeah, to be fair, I think there could be some truth to what Koopaul was saying there, cynical as it kinda is in hindsight. Smash Ultimate for the most part is an exception to the rule thanks to the earlier ballot which resulted in most of the newcomers we got this time around. Whether you think Doomguy will be as lucky depends on your pov, but he's kind of a 50/50.
 

axel_

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There is absolutely no indication that the quality of the hats are much better than what people have been able to come up with a week., especially in a blurry video where certain "mistakes" can be covered up.
>implying it has to be a video that we have to look at
>implying it's low quality


"B-but they can be covered up in an ima-"
These exact same things that would be """"covered up""""
show up in the videos too (which, surprise, aren't that low quality either), all of which would be way more effort to do than just posting a picture.
You can also make the same argument for this already confirmed real Ken leak. Since it's just a less-than-ideal quality image, it's way easier to hide flaws if it was real.


If you really want to point to little things such as "sideburn" when modders have been able to add in jiggles for the Mallow hat, then it's damn obvious it's not something that's insurmountable.
Do you understand WHY the Mallow hat mod for Ultimate (that I presume you're referring to) has jiggles added to it? Because it's a direct model swap of the Slime hat, and it looks terrible because it HAS to have extremely filtered textures and match the same poly count of the original model.

There are way more limits to Mii Costume modding than you think.



Also let's play devil's advocate - if the video was real, it had to be from a developer's version given that outside teams (localization, marketing) don't have that.
I mean, that was... kind of a given.

For something so top secret to be casually revealed would be such a huge breach of NDA that Nintendo would have to nuke it from youtube. You really think companies will leave out materials that are so far down the pipeline....oh wait we did get something like that (Sony/ND with the Last of us 2, and the game was only a couple of months out).
That's what I was saying; If Nintendo did nuke everything about it, everyone (and I mean everyone. I'm talking millions) would immediately know it's real and would start parading the fact that it's real and would start parading it around from then until it was actually shown off. It was already too late for them to do anything about it.

And TLOU2 isn't a fair comparison since there's a significant difference between how notorious faked Smash content is and how it looks compared to TLOU2.
 
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So Doom may be on Metroid's level or so when it comes to Japanese sales at worst... That's still more than people were giving credit for it before. And y'know that last sentence was what people used to say against the idea of Ridley and Dark Samus being in, on that note. Only difference here of course is that they're 1st party, but the standards for 3rd parties are not as restrictive now as they once were. Doom is iconic, Sakurai gave a solid word on John Carmack and his influence on the FPS genre... Doomguy has a fair shot, even if I doubt his chances now.
Sakurai only gave a brief mention to Carmack when he was listing developers who was born in a certain year....which doesn't indicate that he holds the genre in a strong light.
Also are you comparing Metroid sales to DOOM sales in Japan...especially when the former has sold more in 1 entry (Metroid Prime) compared to the lifetime sales of the entire latter franchise? Plus i think you answered your own question with the 1st/3rd party comparison.
What Ridley_Prime said.

2016's supposedly impossible port to the Switch caused the support for Doom Slayer in Smash to skyrocket, and it shot up even further with the announcement of all Doom games beforehand and Doom Eternal coming to Switch (Not specifically in that order, but still). Though it has died down a little with the January interview, it's still mighty strong, and we have until the end of next year for all the characters in Fighters Pass Vol. 2 to be subsequentially revealed and released, and the amount of support the Slayer has had all throughout the base game and Fighters Pass Vol. 1 is sure to influence Nintendo's selection for this new Fighters Pass.
I still don't think that's good enough. Maybe. I'm not saying Doom doesn't have a chance. But something to consider about Nintendo is how little they listen to fans.

This is a case of Horton Hears A Who. Where fans need to be loud enough long enough for Nintendo to hear and respond. Mega loud. For YEARS.

90% of the time Nintendo does what they want. They're notorious at not listening to consumer needs, and ignoring fanbases.
What are you 2 talking about? Nintendo has had a pulse on fans demand....especially when a lot of the newcomers were added in the respective games because of it (Peach/Browser in Melee, MK/Wario/DDD/Sonic in Brawl, Megaman/Palutena/the 3 clones in smash 4 dlc.
Sometimes, there are other priorities/different popularity factors in place to choose other characters. Byleth didn't take the place of other fan-requested characters....because Nintendo already had different ideas to push the pass.
I also just want to point out that the characters with the loudest fanbase isn't what's indicative of what is truly popular...otherwise we wouldn't have gotten Snake/Ryu/DQ and goddam Cloud Strife.

>implying it has to be a video that we have to look at
>implying it's low quality


"B-but they can be covered up in an ima-"
These exact same things that would be """"covered up""""
show up in the videos too (which, surprise, aren't that low quality either), all of which would be way more effort to do than just posting a picture.
You can also make the same argument for this already confirmed real Ken leak. Since it's just a less-than-ideal quality image, it's way easier to hide flaws if it was real.




Do you understand WHY the Mallow hat mod for Ultimate (that I presume you're referring to) has jiggles added to it? Because it's a direct model swap of the Slime hat, and it looks terrible because it HAS to have extremely filtered textures and match the same poly count of the original model.

There are way more limits to Mii Costume modding than you think.




I mean, that was... kind of a given.



That's what I was saying; If Nintendo did nuke everything about it, everyone (and I mean everyone. I'm talking millions) would immediately know it's real and would start parading the fact that it's real and would start parading it around from then until it was actually shown off. It was already too late for them to do anything about it.

And TLOU2 isn't a fair comparison since there's a significant difference between how notorious faked Smash content is and how it looks compared to TLOU2.
1. All i see is a blurry gif video that couldn't be scrutinized carefully because it was taken from a distance. I mean, if people were able to look it up carefully, you might get to nitpick at potential issues. That said...even if we assume that it looks fine...

2. You haven't provided any arguments why modders cannot achieve the level of quality. From your average viewer, the modded Mallow hat looks close enough to the "leak"...and that's enough to call into question that mii hats cannot be modded well.
And that's the key. We cannot make a 1-for-1 exact model to the leak, but as long as it can be replicated then it can be from a fan mod. It's not rocket sceince.
Because i remember when people said initially that modded hats couldn't be done and then presto, a week later we got the Mallow hat. It's not hard to claim that modders could achieve even better quality mods (yes, even remove the jiggles if you think that's such a big issue).

3. Companies absolutely do remove content that is of an extremely sensitive nature, not just Nintendo. Yes, they have had a history of consistently removing video content (WoL stuff, Ryu/Roy datamined stuff before their official reveals, "Yuusha" removals from the datamine) even if it makes it "obvious" so i fail to see how content which is for some reason, apparently 5(??) months away and has to be from the developer, is somehow....not removed. Confidentiality is so much more important than secrecy in this industry.

And TLOU2's leak =/= smash leaks because of how it looks/notorious fakes? The point is that if there is sensitive content leaked, every company has gone out of its way to try to remove it even if it can be seen as "fake". The overwhelming scenarios where this has happened to multiple game companies (yes especially Nintendo!) is more than sufficient to indicate that it would just be removed. Pronto.
 
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axel_

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1. All i see is a blurry gif video that couldn't be scrutinized carefully because it was taken from a distance. I mean, if people were able to look it up carefully, you might get to nitpick at potential issues. That said...even if we assume that it looks fine...
What state are you in? I could probably try and refer a good local optometrist to you.

2. You haven't provided any arguments why modders cannot achieve the level of quality.
I brought it up with the leak. Mods have really specific demands, they need to match poly counts really closely otherwise the game crashes. A vast majority of mods for Mii Costumes have very bad artifacting from these poly count demands and, more glaringly, texture compression. The creator of the Mallow hat mod even says so.
Take, for example, this Mugman mod. It certainly is a good mod, but you can pretty easily notice the remnants of the original Cuphead hat's eyes that got deleted and covered with regular faces and the new Mugman eyes, which have some obvious texture compression. (also worth noting the cutting of the straw's second half since they couldn't actually make a straight, bent straw.)

From your average viewer, the modded Mallow hat looks close enough to the "leak"...and that's enough to call into question that mii hats cannot be modded well.
No???
I know the ****ty quality of YouTube's 720p compression doesn't show it, but the mod is clearly isn't "close enough." The mod's head on the hat is huge (obviously to compensate for the added height from Slime's point) eyes in Cacomallow are 3D and not a texture, and the colors are very much different, especially when compared in a neutral light area like the victory animation stage.

(yes, even remove the jiggles if you think that's such a big issue).
You can't.
I should've brought this up earlier, but there's no way to add or remove attributes to Mii Costumes. Believe me, modders have tried.

3. Companies absolutely do remove content that is of an extremely sensitive nature,
Never said that.
I'm very aware that various companies remove leaks. I vividly remember that happening with No Man's Sky when it broke street date and I know for a fact it's happening with TLOU2, even when they don't actually display spoilers.

(WoL stuff, Ryu/Roy datamined stuff before their official reveals, "Yuusha" removals from the datamine)
They didn't explicitly remove online content that made this info more widespread, and even if they did it wouldn't change anything. The "brave" codeline is a terrible example, btw. I can't remember if streamers and YouTubers got shut down over the Ryu and Roy leaks though.
If you wanted to use examples of Nintendo actually shutting down leaks you could've pointed to when Smash Ultimate broke street date in Mexico and when infodumps started happening for Pokemon SwSh, but they probably would'n't have helped much. The few recent times Nintendo cracked down on leaks were with actual game releases, not DLC, that were only set to release a week or so after these leaks happened. Not only had Smash already released less than a year or so prior to Cacomallow, meaning that they have no reason to be AS strict on optional content, but considering Pass 2 was already in development at this time these Mii Hats wouldn't have been set to be shown for another 7-ish months. Like my first argument for Cacomallow said, it was a safer move for the uneducated masses who aren't as aware of how Smash DLC development timing works to just forget about it since it didn't show up with Terry or Byleth.
 
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What state are you in? I could probably try and refer a good local optometrist to you.


I brought it up with the leak. Mods have really specific demands, they need to match poly counts really closely otherwise the game crashes. A vast majority of mods for Mii Costumes have very bad artifacting from these poly count demands and, more glaringly, texture compression. The creator of the Mallow hat mod even says so.
Take, for example, this Mugman mod. It certainly is a good mod, but you can pretty easily notice the remnants of the original Cuphead hat's eyes that got deleted and covered with regular faces and the new Mugman eyes, which have some obvious texture compression. (also worth noting the cutting of the straw's second half since they couldn't actually make a straight, bent straw.)

No???
I know the ****ty quality of YouTube's 720p compression doesn't show it, but the mod is clearly isn't "close enough." The mod's head on the hat is huge (obviously to compensate for the added height from Slime's point) eyes in Cacomallow are 3D and not a texture, and the colors are very much different, especially when compared in a neutral light area like the victory animation stage.



You can't.
I should've brought this up earlier, but there's no way to add or remove attributes to Mii Costumes. Believe me, modders have tried.
The humor is noted, but it goes back to the point that someone can come up with a mod and have it looks very close, especially when its in a far-up video where compression issues can be hidden.
Plus your Mugman mod just so happens to have a closeup picture of it....which the Cacomallow/Mallow hat is conveniently not. Of course it becomes easier to hide issues like this.
You can point out little things, but the issue still stands - is it completely impossible for the modder to do it? The modder whom you included said that its most likely fake..and that they themselves were able to make a Geno mod that fooled 4chan.

It really boils down to this.
Day 1 - modders said they aren't able to do modding in smash ultimate
Day 8 - modders have managed to recreate multiple mods which look similar enough
I'm not going to go into miniscule details about how the "leak" and the modded video looks different. Of course its not meant to replicate a 1-to-1 likeliness. The point is to show that high quality mods can be made - sufficiently enough to make people think that its legitimate.
Here's a thought exercise - if this video was leaked, would people change the narrative and say that it looks legitimate enough to be real?

Never said that.
I'm very aware that various companies remove leaks. I vividly remember that happening with No Man's Sky when it broke street date and I know for a fact it's happening with TLOU2, even when they don't actually display spoilers.



They didn't explicitly remove online content that made this info more widespread, and even if they did it wouldn't change anything. The "brave" codeline is a terrible example, btw. I can't remember if streamers and YouTubers got shut down over the Ryu and Roy leaks though.
If you wanted to use examples of Nintendo actually shutting down leaks you could've pointed to when Smash Ultimate broke street date in Mexico and when infodumps started happening for Pokemon SwSh, but they probably would'n't have helped much. The few recent times Nintendo cracked down on leaks were with actual game releases, not DLC, that were only set to release a week or so after these leaks happened. Not only had Smash already released less than a year or so prior to Cacomallow, meaning that they have no reason to be AS strict on optional content, but considering Pass 2 was already in development at this time these Mii Hats wouldn't have been set to be shown for another 7-ish months. Like my first argument for Cacomallow said, it was a safer move for the uneducated masses who aren't as aware of how Smash DLC development timing works to just forget about it since it didn't show up with Terry or Byleth.
If your point about "online content that made this info more widespread" (which i'm assuming is speculation/video talks about it), it doesn't take away from how actual game content has been consistently removed before their intended release date. And you agree that companies remove leaks...but this somehow doesn't fall into the same category? Sakurai himself have said that the project is still under tight restrictions, why is this any different? Your example that they somehow do not want to reinforce it by removing it....but they consistently do that to begin with.

Give me good, consistent examples where any game company (even Nintendo) has actively ignored an actual video leak and not pursued action at all because "uneducated masses are not aware" hypotheticals scenarios which do not play out in the real world. The Brave codeline/Ryu + roy/TLOU2 are perfect examples - there's no point in changing anything, but they removed it anyway because of NDAs/breach of information.

The following points still remain unanswered -
1. Why haven't we seen any other revealed mii costumes that were not included?
2. Why would Nintendo not nuke content in which extremely sensitive information has been leaked - if stuff like this could be leaked, then other content including actual characters could be leaked. You say smash dlc is not as strict, but they removed all datamined content (yuusha, Terry) once it was realized it was leaked. It falls under the same scenario.
3. There is no indication that Nintendo sits on mii costumes (especially 3rd party ones). If you assume DOOM/Geno to be included alongside with their Cacomallow/Geno costumes, then if neither of them are pass 7/8 characters....Nintendo literally just made costumes that they sat on for up to 8/9 months. That doesn't make any workflow sense to begin with.
 

axel_

Smash Apprentice
Joined
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Messages
188
I'm not going to go into miniscule details about how the "leak" and the modded video looks different. Of course its not meant to replicate a 1-to-1 likeliness. The point is to show that high quality mods can be made - sufficiently enough to make people think that its legitimate.
>high quality

Plus your Mugman mod just so happens to have a closeup picture of it....which the Cacomallow/Mallow hat is conveniently not. Of course it becomes easier to hide issues like this.
Again, if this isn't a high enough quality for you to see the details then I don't know what to say.

Give me good, consistent examples where any game company (even Nintendo) has actively ignored an actual video leak and not pursued action at all because "uneducated masses are not aware" hypotheticals scenarios which do not play out in the real world. The Brave codeline/Ryu + roy/TLOU2 are perfect examples - there's no point in changing anything, but they removed it anyway because of NDAs/breach of information.
Sure.

Can we stop this now? It's obvious there's no way for me to change you're mind and frankly, I don't care anymore.
 
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>high quality



Again, if this isn't a high enough quality for you to see the details then I don't know what to say.



Sure.

Can we stop this now? It's obvious there's no way for me to change you're mind and frankly, I don't care anymore.
Just found it weird that you keep dodging the point about how game companies remove in-game video content that is leaked, in which the Crash Bandicoot one is...just a picture. And we do not know if Activision have asked them to take it down.

I mean if you're so confident about it despite pointing out the flaws, do you want to do an avatar bet?
 
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Koopaul

Smash Lord
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Messages
1,989
Sakurai only gave a brief mention to Carmack when he was listing developers who was born in a certain year....which doesn't indicate that he holds the genre in a strong light.
Also are you comparing Metroid sales to DOOM sales in Japan...especially when the former has sold more in 1 entry (Metroid Prime) compared to the lifetime sales of the entire latter franchise? Plus i think you answered your own question with the 1st/3rd party comparison.


What are you 2 talking about? Nintendo has had a pulse on fans demand....especially when a lot of the newcomers were added in the respective games because of it (Peach/Browser in Melee, MK/Wario/DDD/Sonic in Brawl, Megaman/Palutena/the 3 clones in smash 4 dlc.
Sometimes, there are other priorities/different popularity factors in place to choose other characters. Byleth didn't take the place of other fan-requested characters....because Nintendo already had different ideas to push the pass.
I also just want to point out that the characters with the loudest fanbase isn't what's indicative of what is truly popular...otherwise we wouldn't have gotten Snake/Ryu/DQ and goddam Cloud Strife.
A couple of things to note. First, the base roster of Smash is decided by Sakurai and his team. DLC is decided by Nintendo.

Secondly, most of those characters got in not out of fan requests but because Sakurai/Nintendo wanted them in there themselves. Correlation does not mean causation. There are only a handful of fighters we know were added to Smash because the fans wanted them to be added.

Thirdly, there's a difference between being a popular character and a character that people want in Smash. Most of the time those two things align. But sometimes they don't.

Basically, my argument comes down to this: Fighters that are added purely because fans requested it are actually kind of rare. Nintendo and Sakurai will add fighters they think would be a good fit first and foremost. If they don't think the character is a good fit or want to prioritize some other fighter, they will. Ridley is the perfect example. Sakurai and Nintendo knew for years how much people wanted Ridley. And time and time again Ridley was a boss. There's an infamous quote about how Sakurai didn't think Ridley would work as a fighter. He changed his mind. But it took years.

There's a possibility that despite all the fan requests, Nintendo doesn't want Doom Slayer, or he's an incredibly low priority. This isn't a democracy. With the exception of the ballot and a few other fighters, fans don't vote on who's getting in Smash. That final call is in the hands of Sakurai and Nintendo. They'll put in a Piranha Plant and keep Waluigi as an Assist 'cause that's how they roll!
 
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A couple of things to note. First, the base roster of Smash is decided by Sakurai and his team. DLC is decided by Nintendo.

Secondly, most of those characters got in not out of fan requests but because Sakurai/Nintendo wanted them in there themselves. Correlation does not mean causation. There are only a handful of fighters we know were added to Smash because the fans wanted them to be added.

Thirdly, there's a difference between being a popular character and a character that people want in Smash. Most of the time those two things align. But sometimes they don't.

Basically, my argument comes down to this: Fighters that are added purely because fans requested it are actually kind of rare. Nintendo and Sakurai will add fighters they think would be a good fit first and foremost. If they don't think the character is a good fit or want to prioritize some other fighter, they will. Ridley is the perfect example. Sakurai and Nintendo knew for years how much people wanted Ridley. And time and time again Ridley was a boss. There's an infamous quote about how Sakurai didn't think Ridley would work as a fighter. He changed his mind. But it took years.

There's a possibility that despite all the fan requests, Nintendo doesn't want Doom Slayer, or he's an incredibly low priority. This isn't a democracy. With the exception of the ballot and a few other fighters, fans don't vote on who's getting in Smash. That final call is in the hands of Sakurai and Nintendo. They'll put in a Piranha Plant and keep Waluigi as an Assist 'cause that's how they roll!
Yea i didn't disagree that they have a mix of priorities, which is what i mentioned earlier. I just want to clarify the point that Nintendo completely doesn't care about smash fan requests (yes, even for dlc purposes) isn't accurate, especially since Nintendo/Sakurai mentioned that these characters were added precisely because people kept asking for them. Let's take a look.


Smash 4 DLC
- Mewtwo, Roy, and Lucas were mentioned to be highly requested, and people were indeed asking for many of these cut characters to be included which matches up.

The entirely of Ultimate's tagline "everyone is here" stemmed from multiple requests to see their favourites make it back. Even if you argue it's a Sakurai decision, Nintendo had to be in agreement due to the huge undertaking and costs (long development, new contracts with existing 3rd parties all over). And Ridley was still made, even through Sakurai mentioned multiple times the reason why he wasn't included was because of how difficult it was to conceptualize him!


Ultimate pack 1
- Banjo was 100% a fan request despite him being half-dead.

Which does indicate that yes, Nintendo does listen to loud smash requests. But that goes to my second point - many picks that Nintendo chose tend to be ignored by the smash bubble, but are incredibly huge icons in their own regard.
Ryu was an afterthought after PW, but its Street Fighter we're talking about - the biggest fighting game out there.
DQ wasn't even a thing till the datamine, but its cultural impact and popularity in japan is second-to-none.
I don't even need to say how enormous Cloud Strife is, but he was a gigantic meme beforehand and the few serious FF speculation always went back to more "FF-ise type of characters like white mage".
Or how many of the other picks tend to be underspeculated, but play out well in the end (Joker, Terry, Bayo if she wasn't the last char).

The thing i'm trying to drive here is that smash bubble speculation isn't the end of everything - there are many picks which may be much more popular outside of that in the mainstream.
 
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Koopaul

Smash Lord
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Messages
1,989
Yes I know that there are fighters that were picked out of fan request. I just said that it is rare. And most of the time Nintendo/Sakurai decide these things themselves. And yes, being icons and being popular in general are some reasons why Nintendo picks them. I don't think any of us disagree on this.

My point is that we can't say a character is now likely because they have had an increase of fan requests. That is not a reliable factor to consider in speculation as Nintendo can either respond to that request or just ignore it. 50/50 And even characters being icons doesn't help too much because sometimes even super iconic games get the Spirit treatment like Resident Evil did.

My approach to speculation is to not let being an icon, or popular, or heavily requested be a big factor in determining whether a fighter is likely. I don't add points in favor of characters, I subtract. I look for things that might hurt a series chances and factor that in. Because at the end of the day, the competition is stiff. The series you love is up against tons and tons of other candidates. It's very hard to speculate what Nintendo might choose. But it's easier to speculate what they might not choose.
 

Koopaul

Smash Lord
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Yeah I just want to tell everyone that there are a multitude of factors. A fighter does not get into the game on fan demand alone. Historically speaking, there have been times when fan requested characters have been denied for one reason or another. Fan requests and popularity is important thing to consider but we need to consider everything that surrounds a fighter's inclusion.
 
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