Ask Ice Climber Players About Ice Climbers Thread

[Kyu Puff]

The other day I pivoted into a shield near the edge, and Nana slid off backwards into an edgehog. As it turns out, it's way too hard to be useful. But in efforts to recreate it, I found another alternative (to belay) to have Nana edgehog.

Dash dance towards the edge and away -- sort of like a messed up pivot -- so that Nana goes into her confused, weird traction animation, and roll towards the edge, holding shield and away. Nana slides off backwards in her shield. I think it might be useful because it's somewhat quicker to set up than a belay edgehog.

 

[S.D]

Two questions:

How can I defend myself against Ganondorf? His Uair is ungodly good and his Dair hits either me or nana 90% of the time. I can spot dodge but nana will probably be hit, and I often don't have time to roll dodge or wavedash away.

Secondly, is there any particular tips for timing the hits in wobbling? I've been having a lot of trouble getting the tempo down consistantly.

Light shield gets you away from most everything evil Ganon will try to do to you.

 

[NOHK]

i need tip on how to take on a falco that camps lasers and spams fsmashes. And when i say thats all he does. Thats it.

I try approaching wth some wavesmashing but i always get out prioritized, any ideas?

 

[S.D]

Try powershielding lasers, or wavesmashing through them ala Wobbles.

If you wavesmash towards a laser it will stop one climber, but the other (generally Nana) will go straight through and land the smash.

As for F smash spam it shouldn't be that hard to avoid. Just time your attacks to hit in the gap between smashes. Otherwise you can cc the smash and get a grab or simply shield it and look for another opening.

Try tilting your shield towards both lasers and f smashes as this reduces hit stun and allows you to capitalise faster.

 

[Binx]

Shield Forward Smash and wavedash in, wait for the spot dodge and grab him, then dair chainthrow him and he will be dead. If he doesn't use the spot dodge often then go strait for the grab and he's still dead.

For more tips on the match up go ahead and click the link to the match up thread in my signature.

All the info you need vs most characters will be there.

Also unless you are solo popo you can't powershield lasers cause Nana will shield to late and eat the reflected hit =*(

 

[NOHK]

thanks alot guys, this should help a load. ^^

 

[Fly_Amanita]

You could also jump out of shield and ice block to discourage camping.

Oh yeah, I also like using platforms to get around lasers. You need to be careful about this since Falco can obviously punish you pretty badly if you're not spacing yourself well, but sometimes you can get away with stuff like wavelanding onto a platform and shffl'ing an aerial over his lasers.

 

[Binx]

So usually my friend's don't like to play against my Ice Climbers cause they float to slow and it's "boring" But yesterday I got in plenty of games, and let me just say right now, that I am amazing at this game! I started using my aerials a lot better all of the sudden and I can now go even with my friend's Marth.

I was able to bait him into a lot of situations where I could punish. My other friend's Marth is a lot smarter and grabs me more, so it wasn't the ultimate test or anything, but I do know without a doubt in tournament I can beat this friend with ICs now. I never used to chase with uairs very well, now any time he set it up I reflexively uaired him out of shield, my overall spacing with Ice Climbers has improved a great deal, and I was doing some really fun desynchs.

 

[platiepoos]

Well hey. I'm a brawl player who's trying to learn how to play melee (yes, a BRAWL player trying to play MELEE) and needed some help from you guys. First off, the icy's shorthop is freaking hard! I'm having a really hard time and was wondering if you could give me any tips on that. Also, I know about the IC's horizontal waveland, but it is as useful/more useful/less useful as a standard waveland? Finally, I'm having trouble grabbing my opponent out of Nana'a fthrow on the handoff. She either throws to fast for me to react (got to work on that -_-) or pummels them and throws me off. I can get the dthrow>grab off pretty consistently though. Overall I think Melee is a much deeper game, as well as much more fun, and I hope to grow as a player in this community. We're constantly finding new things in melee, but brawl is running out of tricks. Please, help the new blood!

 

[Wobbles]

Platiepoos:

1) I'm pretty confident very few smashers have worse reflexes than me, so you can definitely get it down. The main trick is recognizing the beginning of the f-throw animation. Assume she will do it right away and get ready, then after each headbutt just assume she'll do it on the next one... you can't really be caught by surprise with that mindset. I also use sound cues in a lot of cases (I seem to react better to sound than visuals) and (I think) she makes a "ha!" sound before she f-throws.

2) Yep, short hopping is hard. My advice is to just sit and practice doing it over and over again. Keep score! Do as many as you can in a row and write it down, then try to beat that score. Try and get to topping 20-30 consistently. Then start doing dashing short hops, short hops after wavedashes, short hops with aerials (then SHFFLS), and so on. That's how I learned

 

[platiepoos]

Whoa. Thanks for the prompt response. I've got Shorthopping down mostly, but IC's, fox, etc. just seem miles above, say, Captain Falcon in difficulty. Are there any visual cues in the throw animation for when to grab? Who's the easiest person to use it on? I've been using Peach, just because I hate her. -_- Also, I hear constantly about the IC's incredible grab game, but the only thing I ever see used or mentioned are wobbling, blizzard/dthrow/dair, and the handoff. (though not as much) Are there any threads just dedicated to the IC's grab game. Finally, what button set do most players use? I'm currently using y to jump, L to shield (actually trying to transition) and Lcancel, and R to wavedash/waveland. I alsouse z to grab, but sometimes get messed up by the shield. Should I use L/R+A? Thanks for making this transition from Brawl so much easier. :/

 

[Binx]

I personally use the L button for everything you can use the L button for, Shielding, Wavedashing, L canceling, Waveshielding, Wavedashing out of my shield, and airdodges and techs, and wavelands. I'm told its easier if you use a different button for wavedashing, but I don't personally have any troubles or limitations using L, so... yeah.

As far as short hopping, ICs and Fox are tied for the shortest amount of leniency to release jump before it becomes a full hop. I can honestly say if I am not in a real match I have trouble short hopping consistently, vs computers I don't have the desire to move my fingers as fast as they need to and I mess up a lot of things haha. It's pretty strange.

I wish I could answer your throw question, but I am aweful at handoffs..

Also, welcome to Melee - the holy grail of fighting games.

 

[platiepoos]

The main reason I don't want to get into the habit of using R to shield is that I hear it make it much more difficult to WD oos, which is something I'm still working on. I use the R button primarily for most things, but I find it easier to use L for cancelling, since I use A for most of my aerials instead of the c-stick. (except for uair of course) Also, how many of the desynchs in the desynch guide are actually useful and are exploited semi-regularly in competitive play?

 

[Kyu Puff]

Using different buttons for wavedashing and shielding makes it much easier to wd oos AND waveshield. You also want to be able to use the L/R buttons to lightshield on command. It adds a lot to your shield game.

Roll, spotdodge, and grab are the most regularly used, but there are plenty of other useful desynchs.

When Nana f-throws, like Wobbles said, look for the beginning of the animation (you should be able to recognize it) or listen for the throwing sound, and you should be able to grab on reaction. It's a bit easier to run forward and jc grab, although it gives you less room to finish the handoff.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Try to stay away from him in the air, and if he u-airs or f-airs, shield and wavedash away after the hit. Otherwise, keep him at bay by wavedashing away from him. He shouldn't be able to approach you effectively, because the dude is slow.

An easy way to approach Ganondorf is wavedash to jab. You can easily cancel the jab (by crouching) into a grab, which should easily end the stock. Jabs are easy to land on Ganon. (note the number of times I used a form of the word "easy")A.

It's not that simple verses Ganon. From what I notice about Ganon from just playing him in friendlies(note, I know NOTHING about him. This is just what I do), Ganon puts up a hell of a brickwall with his Fair-> Jab or Retreating Bair -> Ftilt. I'd try to do lots of dash-dashes outside of his range into a Blizzard or a dash-attack. It's REALLY hard to get in on Ganon because he has really good range, not much lag on his good moves and we can't exactly crouch cancel his moves. Hell, even Gerudo Dragon is safe on block against us because it has good shield stun AND our traction is bad. So I think this leads to us trying to lay the pressure on him just outside of his range, to see what he'll do and then punishing accordingly.

LOL I talk like I'm good and know what I'm talking about.

 

[Binx]

basically you wait until you think he won't cover his fair with a jab and then wavedash in for a jab or a forward tilt if you think he will crouch cancel. If you predict full jumps you can run under and full hop an up air. Once you have a lead go ahead and camp it up, ganon is basically like Marth, just react to any kind of approach and take advantage.

I believe if you know they will jab you can time a fair or a dash attack/dash grab.

 

[Kyu Puff]

It's not that simple verses Ganon. From what I notice about Ganon from just playing him in friendlies(note, I know NOTHING about him. This is just what I do), Ganon puts up a hell of a brickwall with his Fair-> Jab or Retreating Bair -> Ftilt. I'd try to do lots of dash-dashes outside of his range into a Blizzard or a dash-attack. It's REALLY hard to get in on Ganon because he has really good range, not much lag on his good moves and we can't exactly crouch cancel his moves. Hell, even Gerudo Dragon is safe on block against us because it has good shield stun AND our traction is bad. So I think this leads to us trying to lay the pressure on him just outside of his range, to see what he'll do and then punishing accordingly.

LOL I talk like I'm good and know what I'm talking about.

For the record, I basically agree with all of this. Ganon is a defensive tank and has a much safer time dealing with you once you wander into his range.

That post is close to a year old.

 

[Wobbles]

Well, if it helps against certain moves that are otherwise unpunishable, it helps to wavedash into shield. The catch is you go backwards so you can jump out of shield with b-air. If you're directing the shield at them you'll decrease your sliding a bit, so that will let you stay in range better. I'm trying to use this to help punish certain tilts (mostly f-tilts with good range, Luigi/Falco/Samus/Ganon all come to mind). B-air starts hitting on frame 8 so it takes 11 frames to execute after shield stun at best.

Approaching backwards also gives you faster d-smashes, f-tilt guard de-syncs and surprising grabs. It's also already a method for getting b-airs in, so it's something to think about.

By the way, does anybody know if Doc/Mario's d-smashes are punishable with WD from shield? It's punishable from dodge or triangle jump (depending on when you do it, clearly) but since most tend to use it after a jab that makes dodging at a good time tricky. If you could just let them d-smash and get a punish that would be really nice. It lasts 21 frames after it stops hitting so there clearly isn't much leeway at all, but has anybody been able to do it consistently?

 

[ant-d]

I made this video to show SH F-air in between the CG with popo. (and also an up-smash at the very beginning)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ldnrTYCmak

It shows a combo starting from the middle of FD. Combos from Nana's (CPU) d-throw and b-throw.
And finally ending in the handoff chain-grab to charged d-smash.

This is TAS (frame advance [AR]/save/load etc)

If anyone wants to see a specific combo (any character) let me know.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

I made this video to show SH F-air in between the CG with popo. (and also an up-smash at the very beginning)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ldnrTYCmak

It shows a combo starting from the middle of FD. Combos from Nana's (CPU) d-throw and b-throw.
And finally ending in the handoff chain-grab to charged d-smash.

This is TAS (frame advance [AR]/save/load etc)

If anyone wants to see a specific combo (any character) let me know.

That was hot.

 

[Wobbles]

Oh yeah, I don't know if anybody knows this--I didn't--but if you grab somebody after they've used a double jump and just c-stick forward (with Nana, obviously), for some reason they don't get their jump back. This is really handy, though unfortunately situational.

I imagine it being useful if you caught a Fox with u-tilt after his jump and caught him before he hit the ground; he'd DI away expecting d-throw d-air and would eat the smash, going off the level without a jump. Odds are he wouldn't know he had no jump, and he'd lose a LOT of height before he realized it. Also, he'd complain, and that's always fun. It would work against a Sheik who had to up+b high as well.

I think this has potential use in doubles when you won't always have time to get a chaingrab going. Most of the time you *would* just CG somebody, but if you're in a position where you can't (or they're good at escaping) it might help to keep this in mind.

By the way, anybody know the answer to my Doc/Mario question?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

sweet but why not use f-smash right there that way you get more knock-back/damage, yes it would be a good surprise and fancy and i never thought of that happening. it takes about 10 frames to WD and you will miss time by a a frame of 2 so in theory yes. but how long does it take grab? if it takes longer than about 10 frames then you are out of luck unless they use a slow move

21frames of mario lag

10frames of WD start up lag

guesses

15frames of slideing and grabbing

4frames of dtart up for jump or jab

hey they both at up to 25 frames i didn't plan that

 

[Binx]

Wow Wobbles, thats a really nice grab trick. Thanks for sharing, it makes sense because it interrupts the throw, thats really cool.

 

[Wobbles]

Well, it's all about which option gets you a better result. If you were in the middle of the stage and they were at twenty percent, you'd want to do normal combos. If you caught them a little closer to the edge and they had about 50 or 60, then you may want to do the smash.

I just fiddled with it and you can also charge the f-smash if you like; headbutting won't make a difference. On top of that, it works with up-throw forward-smash as well! This means you can *really* screw with a fastfaller's DI. Hooray.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

oh you can headbut? freakin sweet sorry i thought you had to do it fast

 

[Wobbles]

ICG: no worries, I did too until I started experimenting with it.

Yeah, I love getting inside the opponent's head and screwing with their DI. If people wiggle you use fast CGs and tech-chase throws. Once they stop wiggling and focus on DI you exploit the "right thing to do" and screw it up. Then they hesitate, stop wiggling, and soon you can get old chaingrabs and grab smashes you couldn't before.

It's so much fun having the other guy terrified of being grabbed

 

[Smasher89]

That would work if the fox has used the up B (after a jump) to get above the stage and "retreats" for the ledge in the air before landing?, sounds useful^^

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

dude the ice climbers give me the chills. and their grab game is INSANE, what chain will they use they have like 12 of them or will wobble or just do massive damage. their garb game is feared and respected by all, that's why some people just got a gun

 

[ant-d]

By the way, does anybody know if Doc/Mario's d-smashes are punishable with WD from shield?

You have time to WD grab or WD d-smash. You have to do it perfectly in order to get the d-smash..

It is punishable. Mario doesn't have time to do anything. I tested frame by frame..

 

[Binx]

I don't think it's punishable, once you've factored in shield stun he should be able to shield, and thus spot dodge, or buffer a roll, fortunately you can still punish that =)

 

[ant-d]

Grabbing is easier/safer. D-smash also works.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Is it possible from a lightshield, and would tilting make any difference? I typically wavejab oos in situations like this because the timing seems to be less strict.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

nvm cuz i don't wanna owe kyu money

 

[Kyu Puff]

Does anyone know why a sh ice block will sometimes land and cancel (rather than stopping your momentum in the air)?

 

[Dogysamich]

O
By the way, anybody know the answer to my Doc/Mario question?

yeah, you can actually punish it 10 ways under the sun with ics. You just cant sit around and wait afterwards.

 

[Binx]

Good to know haha.

 

[ant-d]

Is it possible from a lightshield

nope

 

[Binx]

I know I've brought this up before, but powershield to grabs? has anyone tried this yet? obviously you would only use it vs attacks you knew are coming, I think at certain percents it would act as a crouch cancel only harder to do. I'm thinking vs Marth's Fair and Fox's Nairs is where I'd use it most.

Is it possible to walk into Marth's Fair range and do this? I guess he could still grab us first =*(

 

[ant-d]

marth has time to grab

 

[Jam Stunna]

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I like baiting opponents into grabs. The other IC gets a free hit.