Q&A Ask about Pikachu! Hosted by Axe and N64! feat. dkuo!

[iRobinhoood]

You can cancel Pika's up-b?

Also, I noticed in Axe's 2010 Apec vids when recovering from the ledge he like goes into an instant-wavedash which shortens the jump option when climbing onto the stage to barely anything. How do you do this? What's going on that I don't see?

And one more thing, what do you guys use to grab? I use Z button but I feel it can be unreliable at times.

 

[AXE 09]

I just learned something kinda weird o.O

Basically when you use the first zip of your up-b and land on the floor a certain way, it won't allow you to do your 2nd zip.

I was just messing around in training mode on BF with some up-b stuff.

If you stand on one of the side platforms, and do a standing quick attack at a 45 degree angle downwards to the floor, it won't let you do your 2nd zip in any direction.

What's up with that???

I'm guessing it has something to do with starting your up-b while grounded.


EDIT:

You can cancel Pika's up-b?

Also, I noticed in Axe's 2010 Apec vids when recovering from the ledge he like goes into an instant-wavedash which shortens the jump option when climbing onto the stage to barely anything. How do you do this? What's going on that I don't see?

And one more thing, what do you guys use to grab? I use Z button but I feel it can be unreliable at times.

You might be referring to wavelanding onto the stage from the ledge. Is that what you're asking about?

Also, make sure to always jump cancel those grabs. Extremely useful.

 

[iRobinhoood]

It is wavelanding and omg that looks useful. What is it a perfect timed air dodge when jumping up onto the stage from holding the ledge? And this is gonna sound pretty bad but what is a jump cancel, and what does it do? lol And how do I combine it with grabs?

 

[Spyro]

And this is gonna sound pretty bad but what is a jump cancel, and what does it do? lol And how do I combine it with grabs?

Go to part 3:30 on this vid, it will explain it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFmGIOcWdsM&feature=fvwrel
You should proable whatch all 3 parts of these vids cause there is proable other advanced techniques you don't know about.

 

[iRobinhoood]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n4s5yB7ZkE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiZLs2doK8E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFmGIOcWdsM

I will return in three weeks time from the Mongolian Mountains, a worthy opponent....

 

[Rikana]

Reposting this:

Np. I'm trying to learn how Pika works in Melee at the moment. I don't plan to main him in Melee but I'm currently working with Project:M (a hack for Brawl to play like Melee) and I'm wondering what you would alter about Pikachu to make him better?

Right now, Pika in Project:M is pretty much back to his Melee self and kept his Brawl specials because they're better. Some changes he has that make him better at the moment are:
-quick attack cancel: as long as you make quick attack on to the ground before the animation ends you end up with no lag. you can do instant wavelands and uairs out of it because you're in the air for a really really short frame span.
-jolt: you can auto cancel with a full hop without fast falling. if done fast enough, you can use 2nd jump to do X aerial or another jolt. you can also waveland out of it. its really hard to do consistently. you can also force getup at a really far distance and catch up. if youre doing it as an approach, you can run at the same speed as the jolt on ground for safety.
-bair: its smash64 bair
-wavebounce: its a brawl mechanic we kept. I may have gotten the wrong term though. after using your special in the air, you have a very small frame to change the direction of where your character goes (horizontally at least). So for example, thunder. Unlike melee where you can run into the opponent and do an extremely reckless and unsafe thunder, or as an edgeguard.. but dunno who would do that, you can use your momentum to run forward, thunder, and reverse the momentum right after you activate downB which brings you back on stage rather than going further away from the stage.

But his approach game is still relatively the same. From my experience so far, I still have to rely on being a bit campy and dash dance a lot to look for an opportunity to run in with a nair.

Just wondering what you guys think of it and if you have any other suggestions? Thanks for your time guys.

 

[oukd]

Every time I play P:M I never expect Pika's new 64bair to come out instead of his frisbee bair. QA cancel and wavebounce thunder sounds mad cheap but I haven't really experimented with P:M enough to find out how good they can be for myself (actually didn't even know about half of the things you listed including wavebounce thunder). I need to play with JCaesar more.

I do have a few questions though - can you wavebounce into an edgehog? Also, does reducing aerial jolt lag affect his grounded jolt animation by any chance?

 

[Rikana]

I reduced end lag for both grouded and air jolts. Wavebounce and QU cancel isn't broken at all. Its fast but weak. You should only use it as a way to travel and distance yourself. Wavebounce is a mechanic from Brawl. Everyone can do it for practically all specials. Thunder is like one of the few specials in air that is useful when incorporated with wavebounce.. other than that, wavebounce is just something "fancy" with no real practical use. I don't play Brawl so I wouldn't know how well it does in Brawl.

I assume you can wavebounce into an edgehog only if the animation ends on time. Wavebounce forces your character to look in the other direction as well. For example, if you were to jolt to the right but wavebounce to the left, your jolt will come out on the left side in the end.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Pika sounds interesting in P:M.

I never played SSB64 (my parents didn't let me own a gamesystem until I was in 4th grade, by which time melee had been out for a few years) so I only know things from the few videos I've watched, none of which involved Pika (I think)... main point: what is pika's 64 bair?

 

[Rikana]

Think Falco's bair. Fast startup. Strong startup with lingering hitbox. I don't know if it auto cancels though. I'll test some more tonight.

Edit: Keep in mind that we're trying to make everyone better. It doesn't mean they will all be top tiers but we try to make them close to it by giving them more tools while they still play relatively the same. Melee top and high tiers are kept pretty much the same while everyone below them are compensated the most.

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

Oh wow. JCz has talked a bunch about P:M in the ROB social, and I've been waiting for them to work on Pikachu. I am super mad hyped for this, I just wish I could actually hack my Wii to be able to play P:M when Pika's finished. It got that old menu update that breaks mods/etc ;_;

 

[Rikana]

You don't need to hack your Wii to play Brawl mods. There's a hackless method. All you need is a Brawl disc and 2gb or less SD card.

And back to the bAir. You can do bAir wavelands if you're really fast. Its much much harder than Mario's and Falcon's.

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

That's awesome. I have both, and look forward to how Pikachu turns out in P:M.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Pika's dair should be like a mini knee in P:M.
or maybe even a meteor smash...

also make pika faster. and a little lighter. and probably smaller. and give him a wall jump.
I like what you did with his upB though, sound like you made it an upgraded version of Pichu's upB.

also give Pika marth's grab range.

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

also give Pika marth's grab range.

Listen to him.

 

[Rikana]

I can't tell if your suggestions were troll'ish but here's my response: Pika already has walljump. He's already small enough as is in P:M. His mobility is his Melee mobility. Dair is fine the way it is, even in Melee. I don't think I should buff his grab; it isn't that reasonable lol. Making Pika lighter is a nerf. He already dies early as it is. I'm working a bit on his nAir though. I'm altering the animation a bit. I'm extending his tail out rather than keeping it tucked in and adding a small hitbox on it. It'll give Pikachu a bit of safety.. not too much. His previous nAir is just his torso.. which is really unsafe.

By the way, we're making uSmash kill at 2%. It kills Mario with full DI in Dreamland at 2%. He also has a shine made of jolts. It starts on frame 0 so jump cancel it and abuse it.

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

That sounds good. The grab is so awful in real situations though, so a small buffer would be nice to lower the jump cancel grab usage for it ideally, imo.

 

[oukd]

I think the biggest complaint I have for melee Pika is that his shield is tiny and easily stabbed through. Maybe you could bring his shield range up? The only issue I see with this is that it'll mess up Pika's grab game since Pika's shield is small in melee which ends up baiting people closer for shield grabs...so instead, maybe have pika curl up in the shield smaller so it offers better coverage.

Also, you should give him pichu's side+B for funsies.

EDIT: Have you incorporated Pika's moonwalk into P:M? I don't think it worked last time I tried playing, but I might just have a bad memory.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I was serious actually. At least mostly.
Point of my post was: pichu isn't in P:M .-.

Faster running speed because Pika is slow as ****.
Did Pika have a walljump in brawl? Because he didn't in melee.
He should have a bigger grab range because he has the smallest grab range in melee.

and Dkuo is right. Pichu's sideB pl0x. But with misfires like luigi's

if you didn't know the difference between Pika and Pichu's sideBs, Pichu's can charge for much longer and travels like twice as far as Pika's. It can also be canceled into various things if it hits a slanted surface (i think pika's can too, but the angle it travels makes it harder to do).

 

[Rikana]

I wouldn't worry about his recovery too much. Its pretty good at the moment IMO. I wouldn't worry too much about the tiny grab range either. His altered nAir makes him so much better now which passively buffs both. Regarding shields, they're Brawl shields so that may be good or bad? Not too sure. Be sure to tune in when I stream though. I'll give you guys an idea of what Pika is like in Project:M.

Remember. Anything can change at any moment so please keep in mind the things you see are not set in stone.

 

[DerfMidWest]

when/what is your stream?
I'd like to watch it if i'm able.

and Pika's recovery is already good, but it could always be better. He gets sent very far by moves, so he needs a good recovery to help him get back from that.

 

[Rikana]

www.twitch.tv/rikana_rikana

That's why improving his approach games will passively buff his recovery. A character's weakness should be kept the way it is to prevent alienating players.

Edit: I guess I'll stream it in a bit to show you a preview. If you miss it you can always look at the archive.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Ok, I watched one video so far and first thing i noticed.... WTF NAIR IS HUUUUUGE!!!

I like the new Bair.

The upB stuff is kinda cool, its similar to Pichu's upB...

Pika still seems fat and slow though :\

 

[Rikana]

Don't mind the gameplay though. My hands were cold and stiff. I may tone down the nair. Maybe less damage on the tail.



That's about all I would change.

 

[Spyro]

Is Pikachu's shield still as bad as it was in melee or are you guys making Pika's shield better?

 

[Rikana]

I'm sort of the wrong person to ask that. I don't know whether or not his shield is better because I barely played Pika in melee. I'll get back to you on that after I get an answer.

 

[N64]

Honestly, as long as he has melee pikachu's uair hitboxes instead of brawl's, that's the main thing I'm concerned about. Having a better shield would be nice, bigger grab range isn't really necessary, his size is fine imo.

Keep in mind I haven't played brawl Pikachu much at all (as soon as I noticed his uair was different and bad, I was done), so all I know is melee Pikachu's moveset.

What I think might be interesting ideas, not necessarily good, but would just give Pikachu more options:
Necessary:
1. Make sure uair mimics melee pika's uair hitboxes.
2. Improve shield.
3. Improve fair's hitbox so it reaches slightly in front of Pikachu.
Optional:
4. Increase utilt's hitbox range. This could lead to anti-air uses, some weird shield pressure stuff, and mostly would just make utilt more viable.
5. Improve damage on uair slightly, by 1-2%. It currently does 3% damage.
6. Change Pikachu's weight or other characters' downthrows so that chaingrabbing doesn't last as long or is less viable against Pikachu.

These with what you've already mentioned would, imo, make Pikachu pretty viable.

 

[AXE 09]

Just spent the last like 3 hours or so trying to find a way to consistently get the thunderjolt glich on Battlefield. No luck For some reason I just really felt like it was possible, but I can't for the life of me find a way to consistently position myself to get it.

 

[iRobinhoood]

Just spent the last like 3 hours or so trying to find a way to consistently get the thunderjolt glich on Battlefield. No luck For some reason I just really felt like it was possible, but I can't for the life of me find a way to consistently position myself to get it.

Explain. Also Axe are you going to ApeX 2012?

 

[soju]

I found the spot to shoot the jolt to have it stuck in the ledge if thats what your looking for, but its mad difficult and precise to be able to pull off at will.

Also ._. aren't we suppose to make pika more like he was in melee then giving him super buffed up shiz? I mean auto QA cancels and karatechu64 attacks are hype and all, but improving things like his hug range and increasing his cannonball size is a little much? Might as well just make his tail twice as big if you wanna buff him that much o~o

@dkuo- that isn't pikachu only, they would have to mess around with the running mechanics to add that i think o~o

@aesir- leave chubby chu alone gonna hurt his feelings ;w; and your suggestions. . . a pikachu with marth range would be stupid ._.


oh and if i save up enough money, ima go to apex, show axe how to play pikachu, and be cold cuz its not cali~

 

[DerfMidWest]

lol Silly Soju, my ideas are the best.

 

[soju]

You think your ideas are the best silly pichu player but I like my pikachu in his pikachu tier not high tier, chubbychu already has one of the best gimps in the game almost on par with falco's dair. His Dair is pretty boss the way it is, and his grab range pretty much makes his almost broken grab game balanced, i believe pikachu could rise up to high tier if he had a normal grab range and normal shield but who wants to make things that easy and adding a little more % to the uair would be pretty broken. >w> The only thing I'm mad at is that pichu stole his walljump because she couldn't gain enough happiness points =~=

Anyways giant *hurtbox on up-b makes me a very very sad person :[

 

[Spyro]

You think your ideas are the best silly pichu player but I like my pikachu in his pikachu tier not high tier, chubbychu already has one of the best gimps in the game almost on par with falco's dair. His Dair is pretty boss the way it is, and his grab range pretty much makes his almost broken grab game balanced, i believe pikachu could rise up to high tier if he had a normal grab range and normal shield but who wants to make things that easy and adding a little more % to the uair would be pretty broken. >w>

How would a normal grab range, normal shield and a little more % to the uair make Pikachu broken? And you don't want the Pika metagame to improve in project m? I thought the purpose of project m was to make all (or try as hard as they can to get all) of the characters to be top tier (and make it play like melee). What do you mean broken grab game, just look at Marth's broken grabs. (Putting Marth on blast lol.)

 

[soju]

ask any fast faller thats been grabbed by axe you'll get your answer there I mean if there is open roomand theyre between 75-110% you will kill them with a grab and i said it was almost broken, not godlike like marths or shieks
and if its like that for project m go for it, i just thought they were attempting to make it like melee

*I also say that because those things can really mess up pikachu, imagine with a normal grab range = a lot more cg, combos, easier tech chasing. Pika's shield is way wayyyy too pokeable, with a better shield he has way more time to react to being pressured which lets you have more time to decide whether to do things like usmash, uair, etc OoS. And if uair had more % imagine instead of giving them 11% out of a stupidly long juggle and switch it with 33%, makes a HUGE difference, the fact that it does 3<% a hit is why i dont uair juggle and use it purely as a means to gimp and combo into smashes grabs or thunders. And I said it would raise him to high tier also. If we wanted him top tier, make him floatier so he loses his status as combo fodder and give him a real jab I mean his little headbutt is good but with a normal jab his combo capability would go way up, and giving him his thunder from n64 would be cool but then we wouldn't have axe doing thunder shenanigans on shroomed .gg. Also removing his fatness from his Up-B will make his recovery even more amazing >:3

 

[N64]

I just want a better shield. Smallest grab range is fine. Soju is right that giving pika a decent grabrange turns him into a menace because bthrow is so fantastic and uthrow is so damaging to some chars that it would make him pretty scary.

But having the smallest shield in the game too? Come on. It's silly.

Soju, it's silly.
Shhhh
shhh
It's silly.

 

[Spyro]

I can see where you’re going with Pikachu having a descent grab rang but leaving him with a really bad shield is just silly. O and uair should have more damage but not like 11% , I was thinking more like 5%-7%, not anything stupid like 10% or 12%. Making him a little lighter where he's not as easy to combo and bringing back the 64 thunder sounds like good ideas too.

 

[oukd]

Keep in mind that P:M's philosophy isn't to be a melee clone, but rather to play like melee while trying to balance the characters. The plan is to literally import all the frame data from melee into brawl, and then adjust accordingly.

Honestly, I think all Pika needs is to have his shield cover him more reliably (have Pika curl up his hurtbox smaller in the shield) as opposed to gaining a bigger shield. While it is a weakness by nature, the small shield actually works in Pika's favor psychologically because they feel more comfortable with being closer to a shielding Pika; but with a big shield, Pika would find it difficult to shieldgrab anyone unless his grab scaled up with it...the two traits are inevitably linked.

Maybe improve his bad tech a little too...and make his less useful moves just slightly more applicable (utilt, dthrow). If only for the sake of balance, I honestly wouldn't really change anything else. Pika makes up for being easily comboed by being very mobile and having a great recovery, and his lack of priority is balanced out by having hitboxes that come out earlier than average which gears him towards being a hit-and-run character. Personally, I like uair the way it is in melee - used not to rack up damage, but rather as a combo-starter/gimper/general nuisance.

On a side note, It's nice to see the Pika boards contributing to P:M

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

I'm pretty sure I agree with dkuo on this one, after reading that. Instead of buffing grab, just curl Pikachu into his shield tighter. Makes a lot of sense.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I couldn't read all of these posts right now, because I'm already late for school, but I just have to say one thing:

Its a male pichu. It doesn't have the Spiked ear.

 

[Strong Badam]

looooool the battlefield jolt glitch is sooo good