Q&A Ask about Pikachu! Hosted by Axe and N64! feat. dkuo!

[_trix_]

AXE 09 can't wait for the guide. Also, hope to see you at RC this weekend. Are you planning on going to any other chicago tournaments while your here?

 

[AXE 09]

Oh snap are there more tournaments happening this weekend besides RC?

 

[_trix_]

AXE 09 there's a tournament friday (really big tournament, usually about 60 people go), and one on sunday (usually like 40). The Friday one is in Aurora and is on smashboards, but I dunno about the Sunday one.

 

[_trix_]

Also, are you planning on going on pikachu boards more now or are you just doing matchups guides? It would be really helpful for pikachu players if you came on more often, but of course if you're busy I understand (:

 

[mynameisdog4]

The fox guide helped me so much already lmao. It made me realize I've been handling fox at low percent wrong. I used to mostly cross up nair and dtilt, but I started using more uair to combo into usmash and such. Gets them out of crouch cancel % quicker and doesn't get destroyed by cc. Pretty sure I'm going about the low percent game wrong against other characters as well. What is everyone's gameplan against characters like Marth, Sheik, and Peach when they are at low percent?

 

[DD151]

Has anyone ever considered using Thunder's ground hit as tech option coverage on small platforms? It covers the entire platform on neutral PS, FoD, and Yoshi's (for fatter characters only) and it's far stronger than any of Pika's aerials.

I tested some possible set-ups to confirm if this was applicable in a real match. Here are a couple of scenarios that you can try in training mode:

• vs. Captain Falcon, set to 64%. On Yoshi's Story, full jump instant U-air from the ground such that CF has to tech on a side platform, drift towards the center of the platform and use Thunder immediately after U-air ends.
• vs. Fox, set to 78%. On Pokemon Stadium, full jump instant U-air from the ground such that Fox has to tech on a platform, drift towards the center of the platform and use Thunder immediately after U-air ends.

Obviously this is super easy to mess up and the cooldown is atrocious if you miss, but it's very swag and possibly an optimal option provided that the player has timely execution. There's a bit of leeway if you time the Thunder too early because it has 9 active frames on the ground hit.

EDIT: here's a gfy that u/Psyam from r/ssbm made:

Spoiler

It doesn't show the exact setup that I described above, but it demonstrates the concept behind it.

 

[moogs]

Obviously this is super easy to mess up and the cooldown is atrocious if you miss, but it's very swag and possibly an optimal option provided that the player has timely execution.

That's the gist of the grounded hit in general but it never occurred to me that it might be large enough to cover any legal platforms entirely, sans Randall (what about the platforms during Stadium's transformations?). Nor did I think it would be fast enough to cover a tech situation. However, wouldn't the risk be too severe if they deliberately slide off the platform?

I've only ever used the grounded hit to punish linear recoveries with enough lag on FD. Now I'm just wondering if it can be ground teched. I'm definitely going to test it for myself and incorporate it as a platform tech punish.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Seems like a cool idea. But the grounded hit only lasts 9 frames, which is much shorter than a tech roll animation. In other words, you could only either cover both tech rolls simultaneously OR missed tech + tech in place simultaneously, not ALL FOUR options simultaneously.

 

[DD151]

However, wouldn't the risk be too severe if they deliberately slide off the platform?

Yes, however, a character can only slide off the platform during tech in place and missed tech, and they will only do so if they are both close enough to the edge of the platform and if they have enough horizontal momentum to carry them off the platform. In short, it's possible to predict when a character can possibly slide off the platform simply based on their knockback trajectory (a more vertical trajectory means they have to land super close to the edge of the platform), and if you think they can slide off, then you just won't use Thunder.

Seems like a cool idea. But the grounded hit only lasts 9 frames, which is much shorter than a tech roll animation. In other words, you could only either cover both tech rolls simultaneously OR missed tech + tech in place simultaneously, not ALL FOUR options simultaneously.

No, you can cover all four options simultaneously.

Tech in place and missed tech are both 26 frames.
Techrolls are both 40 frames.

Missed tech is vulnerable for all 26 frames.
All techs in place are vulnerable frames 21-26 (except for Pichu and Pika tech in place which are vulnerable frames 25-26).
All techrolls are vulnerable frames 21-40.

Therefore, if you can cover an entire platform by putting out a large hitbox on frames 21-26 of a knockdown, you can cover all four options simultaneously.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Oh I had no idea that tech rolls were vulnerable for the last 20 frames. Are you sure about that?

 

[DD151]

ChivalRuse Yes sir: http://smashboards.com/threads/detailed-throws-techs-and-getups-frame-data.206469/#post-5896012

 

[Rodrick Strickland]

how bad is the Jiggs vs Pikachu matchup?

 

[N64]

That thunder coverage is pretty neat. I guess I always assumed it was too slow to properly cover. It does look like you have hard-read that they're going to DI to platform, but sometimes that is their only option and it looks like you still do have a small amount of time to react to DI and pick a different option (land jc grab/usmash/whatever) if they DI away from platform. Hella punishable if you read DI wrong or mistime, but if it truly covers all platform tech/nontech options then that's pretty cool.

Jiggs vs Pika is one of Pika's 5 worst matchups imo.

 

[DD151]

I think depending on the opponent %, it should be reactable. U-air hits frame 3 and ends after frame 27. You'll have at least 24 frames to react to their trajectory and decide whether or not to double jump to the middle of a platform and Thunder.

In any case I'd love to see someone pull this off in a recorded/streamed bracket match, it'd be hella swag.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Grounded Puff is hard to hit with nair, because she can duck under the hitbox at most trajectories, and CC it if you do it while rising. On top of that, her bair keeps you super honest; so even if you wanted to yolo nair gomble, you're likely to just run into her wall of pain.

 

[YYJ Turbo]

How do y'all normally deal with Falco approaches? After playing against SFAT, he advised to use dsmash as an anti-air but against Falco, I seem to get hit by the dair anyways. I can shield but even intermediate Falcos can L-Cancel shine pretty quickly. Do you just have to be super quick on the upsmash/uair oos?

 

[GrizzyBeer]

How do y'all normally deal with Falco approaches? After playing against SFAT, he advised to use dsmash as an anti-air but against Falco, I seem to get hit by the dair anyways. I can shield but even intermediate Falcos can L-Cancel shine pretty quickly. Do you just have to be super quick on the upsmash/uair oos?

My understanding is that up angled f tilt beats out pretty much every aerial, I'm bad though and havent got it to work for me

 

[CrazyFabiO]

I have much trouble with the proposed chaingrab from Pika at Fox. If they fully DI left or right, i am by no means able to chain grab, if they are at a low percent like 12%. Am I doing something wrong? Is this chaingrab just for no DI?
At which Frames after the Uthrow do i need to Dash, when to jc grab?
pls help

 

[_trix_]

It starts at 0% but before 15% it's extremely frame tight.

 

[CrazyFabiO]

It starts at 0% but before 15% it's extremely frame tight.

Do I have to dash on the first possible frame? And Do i have to JC Grab while in Dash Animation? Is there any frame data on this? I cant get it to work against 20xx cpu fox/falco

 

[_trix_]

No, but you have to do it pretty close to frame perfectly. Yes. And not that I'm aware of. Just practice it at lower and lower percents and you'll get it eventually

 

[Swagic]

What's the best way to practice up-B sweetspots?

 

[CrazyFabiO]

No, but you have to do it pretty close to frame perfectly. Yes. And not that I'm aware of. Just practice it at lower and lower percents and you'll get it eventually

I actually did some ”research” in develop mode and found out that if fox is at 12 % before the throw, you have have to
1. dash on the first possible frame, then jump on frame 2, 3 or 4 of the dash and jc grab on the first possible frame for jump on 2 and 4. Only if you have hit jump on frame 3 of the dash, you can also grab on the 2nd frame of the jumpsquat.
2. dash on the second possible frame, jump on 3rd frame of dash and jc grab on the first possible frame.
if you dash later, you cant regrab.

I noted this as 3dimensional tensor xD. I am planning to this for other, higher percentages, too, to see if the frame windows change.

What's the best way to practice up-B sweetspots?

Get 20xx Hack Pack and overlay your collision bubble with X+D-Pad Right. See if you can stay blue/invincible the entire time.

 

[Swagic]

2 questions- 1. How ledgedash? 2. Is it worth it trying to fight Sheik? Or should I just pick up a second for that mu?

Also... Is it bad that I think my best mu with Pika is Puff?

 

[Comet7]

Practice makes perfect for ledgedashes. Puff might be your best if the level of play you are at allows you to frequently land up smashes. I like this MU (well I play Pichu but w/e) since it just requires a lot of patience even though Puff still wins since she's just better at the waiting game. I think that you should play Pikachu until you can beat at least mid level Sheiks aince it should gelp you grow as a player a lot if you can overcome her range advantage.

 

[YYJ Turbo]

2 questions- 1. How ledgedash? 2. Is it worth it trying to fight Sheik? Or should I just pick up a second for that mu?

Also... Is it bad that I think my best mu with Pika is Puff?

I spoke to Axe on this subject and he made a statement that I would heavily agree with. Many of Pikachu's matchups feel very difficult until you get very proficient with Pikachu. Sheik has great aerials and grab range so it may feel unwinnable but if you watch Axe play, it's definitely a winnable matchup.

If your best MU with Pika is Puff, the Puff is likely not experienced in the matchup. Pikachu lacks a lot of what makes Fox powerful in the matchup (Laser Camping, true combos into upsmash, upair) and Pikachu does not have the same combos on floaties that he does on other characters.

Add in the fact that you're extremely light (Bottom 5) and have the worst grab range out there, it's very difficult to get in vs a defensive puff player.

I personally prefer playing spacies as many don't respect Pikachu's chain grab or tail spike, plus it's extremely easy to gimp with strong aerials like nair (I've seen a lot of spacies try to go out far to avoid the tailspike and you can just jump out and nair them)

 

[Swagic]

Spacies are by far my favorite, but the Puff I was playing wasn't respecting the thunder jolt, so I could chase it into a usmash

 

[Dingding123]

I also definitely agree with Axe that the Pika MU's are bad 'till you're good at Pika. I'm convinced it's his movement options coupled with how small of a character he is that gives him his piKAPOWer, and definitely not how proficient a noochador the player is. Although it helps.

Pika's wavedash makes him even shorter than he already is briefly, his roll is nice for such a small character (not to mention turning around as pika instead takes some frames) and his fullhop fair, nair, and uair are all great anti-airs that all autocancel. A big part of playing Pikachu well seems to not have anything to do with poking and keeping a good distance away and rather seems to be about playing aggressively while being hard to 'find'. If all Pika does is SHFFL nair and usmash, then that's really easy to 'find'.

TL;DR: Being good at SHFFL nair and dash->usmash is one thing; being good at Pika is another.

 

[Vista_]

Hey everyone, Im picking up pika for fun and I was reading Axe's amazing matchup guide on Falco. He mentions that you should stay within roll range where you can threaten with dash grab, up smash and down smash. Why is it that you want to be able to threaten with down smash at close range? Is it to stuff SHFFL Dair or to catch their spot dodge?

 

[ihasabuket]

Yes, however, a character can only slide off the platform during tech in place and missed tech, and they will only do so if they are both close enough to the edge of the platform and if they have enough horizontal momentum to carry them off the platform. In short, it's possible to predict when a character can possibly slide off the platform simply based on their knockback trajectory (a more vertical trajectory means they have to land super close to the edge of the platform), and if you think they can slide off, then you just won't use Thunder.



No, you can cover all four options simultaneously.

Tech in place and missed tech are both 26 frames.
Techrolls are both 40 frames.

Missed tech is vulnerable for all 26 frames.
All techs in place are vulnerable frames 21-26 (except for Pichu and Pika tech in place which are vulnerable frames 25-26).
All techrolls are vulnerable frames 21-40.

Therefore, if you can cover an entire platform by putting out a large hitbox on frames 21-26 of a knockdown, you can cover all four options simultaneously.

Dude does Axe ever go on the pikachu boards? I feel like he only ever learns things when people tell him on his stream

 

[_trix_]

Dude does Axe ever go on the pikachu boards? I feel like he only ever learns things when people tell him on his stream

I talked to axe alot at UGC. Most of the stuff myself or any other pikachu players are coming up with axe has already started working on, oddly enough. He knows alot about this character lol, even before people tell him. And yeah he doesn't really go on smashboards anymore, mainly because it's not as big as it used to be.

 

[ihasabuket]

I talked to axe alot at UGC. Most of the stuff myself or any other pikachu players are coming up with axe has already started working on, oddly enough. He knows alot about this character lol, even before people tell him. And yeah he doesn't really go on smashboards anymore, mainly because it's not as big as it used to be.

What exactly did you talk to him about? I'd like to see him incorporate SH rising upairs more than anything. He also has a lot of opportunities to extend his platform techchases and upair followups(on spacies) with uptilt, but instead opts for upsmash at %s where it wont lead to anything. Uptilt can also setup some easy tailspikes.

 

[_trix_]

What exactly did you talk to him about? I'd like to see him incorporate SH rising upairs more than anything. He also has a lot of opportunities to extend his platform techchases and upair followups(on spacies) with uptilt, but instead opts for upsmash at %s where it wont lead to anything. Uptilt can also setup some easy tailspikes.

He likes garunteed damage because sometimes he doesn't feel super confident in his combos. He generally does more uptilt stuff in friendlies. And yeah I love SH rising upairs

 

[ihasabuket]

He likes garunteed damage because sometimes he doesn't feel super confident in his combos. He generally does more uptilt stuff in friendlies. And yeah I love SH rising upairs

Seriously? I wasnt really expecting that. He could really benefit from using uptilt more.
The great thing about uptilt is that the 2 higher priority hitboxes send up and behind pikachu, making its followups pretty much guaranteed at +50%. I think what really makes it so great is the frame data though. It lasts 24 frames total; It lasts two frames less than the whole mistech and tech in place animation meaning you can cover techs away with upsmash or with my personal favorite DI mixup, shai drop bair. You can literally cover every tech option without initially committing. It also creates a much easier tech situation since the tech away distances are limited by the platform, making the spacing for the techchase upsmash practically free. I also like really preemptive mistech coverage with the front part of uptilt.
To elaborate a little on this, the front part of uptilt hits on frames 12-14. So if youre preemptively covering mistech with this and they do tech, you'll be actionable at around frame 15 of their tech option which gives you a nice 11 frame window to upsmash in place or a hefty 25 frame window to JC upsmash or shai drop aerial.

Moreover, when Axe platform techase upsmashes on the side platform it may not be enough to kill and they may DI away to end the combo. If you uptilt a spacie on a side platform at around 80% they either eat a follow up or DI to the platform which gives you a lot of time to upsmash platform techchase which is better setup because the platform is higher up and fox is slighlty higher %.

I might make a thread about this using Ikneedata to show uptilts trajectories compared to upthrow and upsmash and explaining the frame data and advantages to using uptilt.

 

[BlindSpot]

Hey, so I've been going through a character crisis for a couple years now, and just picked up Pikachu. Always been into competitive pokemon, and really enjoy the character. If you can list some tech i could practice to get further with Pikachu, please lmk. Any advice is greatly appreciated

 

[Popertop]

I talked to axe alot at UGC. Most of the stuff myself or any other pikachu players are coming up with axe has already started working on, oddly enough. He knows alot about this character lol, even before people tell him. And yeah he doesn't really go on smashboards anymore, mainly because it's not as big as it used to be.

I'm not on these boards or anything, and I told a friend of mine in person that "Axe should start experimenting with autocancel Up-B" and then I saw him do it in tournament and was like "Well ****."

There are some variations on the angles of auto-cancel up-b that he could use more to avoid getting punished, if he really wanted to.

Hey, so I've been going through a character crisis for a couple years now, and just picked up Pikachu. Always been into competitive pokemon, and really enjoy the character. If you can list some tech i could practice to get further with Pikachu, please lmk. Any advice is greatly appreciated

..............

 

[BlindSpot]

You right.. lol

 

[Popertop]

You right.. lol

read N64s pikachu guide, watch Axe, etc.

You could just play shiek (or whatever your Flavor of the Month char is). Diluting your character time is going to hold you back.

I'd say just pick a char in the top 8, but if you really like pikachu he has some unique strengths. It's going to be an uphill battle and you won't see results for a while, as ppl have been saying recently in this thread 'pikas matchups are hard until you reach a high lvl of proficiency'


fwiw, I think sharpening general game knowledge, and developing critical thinking regarding situations is more important than char choice, esp if you are having a selection crisis.

But at the same time many of the situations are determined by specific char strengths and weaknesses....

At the end of the day, you will play better with a char you like. But you still need to work hard

(I know this guy he's in my local scene)

 

[BlindSpot]

Yeah, when you said "just play sheik" I recognized that it was you lol
No, I've definitely been enjoying the game more as Pikachu. I agree though, learning general knowledge might actually benefit (me) in the long run.

Hmm.. I'll read his guide. I guess my biggest concern is when I punish a whiff, and my grab won't reach, it just feels like I get a Nair to nothing.. punish game is a little weird I guess?
But I did accidentally discover that if you bthrow (tested on fox) into quick attack, it acts as a jab reset if they don't tech. Just thought that was neat.

 

[Popertop]

Nair > Ftilt and Nair > Dtilt are your main followups
you'll generally be able to get those, and you aren't as unsafe as you are if you whiff a grab

Dtilt total frames - 21 (Interruptable frame 19)
Ftilt total frames - 29 (10 active frames)

Grab total frames - 30 (you also lean forward)
Running grab total frames - 40 (and you get that really bad flip)

Pika's punish game is pretty different
Focus on learning his neutral
And supplement that with studying what ppl say in threads like this
And developing your understanding of his frame data