Ask a quick question, get a quick answer (The Marth FAQ's)

[chaos_]

is marth's dash attack even useful?

 

[Remzi]

No, it is just awful.

 

[DarkRunner00]

Use Uair. It provides cover from overhead attackers.

Unless you mean on certain stages where you can Fair people through the stage who are trying to guard too close. Yeah, I do that all the time. It's especially good when they don't back off, because they they like to shield, and I ledge hop to shield breaker which is a stock if I break their shield at the ledge.

Uair can also be used for this purpose.

but Uair takes much longer time to finish, and could potentially leave Marth vulnerable... they could easily ledgehog you as you upB...

 

[flash7]

Probably. Though there may be one or two characters, here's a few helpful tips:

Move in the direction you're facing (someone correct me if it's opposite)
Short hop your footstool to lower your rising speed.



It works on D3



Ledge drop counter is risky business. Marth generally has better options, though for some characters, such as DK, this is a decent idea. Don't try to use it to much, there are better things to do, such as Bair/Fair edgeguarding, and on stage edgeguarding.

Take a look here for tips on edge-guarding with Marth
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=191242&highlight=edgeguard+Marth&page=2



The same can be said of Yoshi, and it should work on most of those characters.



Fox-trot is for mix-ups, you shouldn't be approaching your opponent with a dash anyway. Walking is KEY.



I hate when that happens.

Are you sure it works on D3? Ive tested some chars by having them jump then i would footstool to dair but it would miss. I havent considered the option of moving though. Ill try it again.

 

[chaos_]

No, it is just awful.

i don't use it but i just wanted to know is it useful just in case

 

[Remzi]

The only time i use it is when my opponent trips. And its kind of just by reaction, there are much better options.

 

[chaos_]

oh and is counter bad too?

 

[Remzi]

counter isnt good. its not completely awful though... its just too risky to be able to use efficiently. and there is almost always a better option

 

[chaos_]

counter isnt good. its not completely awful though... its just too risky to be able to use efficiently. and there is almost always a better option

i would use it on a charged up f-smash

 

[Creo]

Counter is not a bad move, but it has to be used right.
You WILL be punished if you just freely use it.

Assuming you're facing a top level opponent:
Prediction. That's about it. Use it when you know it's going to work, or prepare to be grabbed/punished.
Mindgames. Using it here and there for mindgames doesn't hurt, and works for me.

Some use it for ledgeguarding as well. I haven't actually used this since I read about it the other day and haven't faced anyone since, so I can't comment.

Honestly, I don't use counter much at all to be honest. . .it's situational.

All in all, it's not a bad move if you know how/when to use it effictively, but you always have more options that may be better for most situations.

 

[Shaya]

Counter is fantastic when you don't get punished for it.

It does come out it only 5 frames, shame the average human reaction time is about 12. If you were some Godly smasher with 0-1 frame reaction speed Counter would make you unbeatable

 

[chaos_]

Counter is fantastic when you don't get punished for it.

It does come out it only 5 frames, shame the average human reaction time is about 12. If you were some Godly smasher with 0-1 frame reaction speed Counter would make you unbeatable

lol yeah auto win

 

[DarkRunner00]

Counter is fantastic when you don't get punished for it.

It does come out it only 5 frames, shame the average human reaction time is about 12. If you were some Godly smasher with 0-1 frame reaction speed Counter would make you unbeatable

all of marth's moves (minus dash attack) is fantastic if unpunished.

Counter is phenominal, if you anticipate an attack, and would airdodge it, counter rather. Marth has better moves on the ground. Shield -> punisher is beyond counter...

 

[BacklashMarth]

Marths dash attack is NOT fantastic even if you dont get punished for it.

 

[SelfPossessed]

I'm a newbie at Brawl and I've been getting my behind handed to me. As such, I have a few questions that, once answered, will hopefully improve my Marth game. Hopefully, this is the right place to post.

1) When doing a SH Fair, I have a problem deciding whether to DI forwards or backwards. Obviously on hit or if the opponent rolls behind you, you want to DI forwards. On hitting a shield, you want to DI backwards. However, it feels like I need to commit to the DI before I have enough time to react. This results in me just guessing the DI direction, sometimes getting punished for getting to close to a shield grab or losing out in potential damage when the opponent flies away. What suggestions do you have? For example, if it's just reacting, what should I be looking for to react to (as in, perhaps the color of a shield popping up, etc.)?

2) Let's say that you've just performed a SHFF Fair (or a SHDF FF) and it gets shielded. Let's say that it was spaced properly and the opponent doesn't have a guaranteed punisher. What's the best option at this point? Is it better to defend with shield, spot dodge, roll, or to attack with jab or side B? Should I just start SH Fairing again? I tend to freeze up when this situation happens as I'm not sure if the 4 frames of lag are greater than the shield stun, which lets my opponent get free hits in on me.

3) I've been losing aerial wars against lower priority aerials. Take Wolf's Bair. I've been told that it's a timing problem. I'm either attacking too early or too late. Does anyone have any advice for this? I think this occurs because I attack with the goal of getting a tipper Fair (and I space my SH accordingly), but my opponent launches himself towards or away from me while using Bair, which screws my timing and spacing up royally. Any suggestions? Should I play more passively and Fair just out of range, hoping they'll launch themselves into my range? Or should I try Nair, or even a ground approach instead?

4) I've been trying up B out of shield during an attack unsuccessfully. I have tap jump on. I think it's because I don't hit the up and the B at the same time, so there's a small window where I'm not in my invincibility frames. Do you have any advice as how to remedy this? Should I just up smash via the C stick to be safe?

5) After shielding an attack, when should you up B (better KO and hits behind, maybe more range) and when should you grab (refreshes)? Or, is an attempt at a side B punish worthwhile despite lacking the jump cancel? What about after a spot dodge? I usually follow successful spot dodges with side B, but is there a better option?

6) I'm not comfortable using certain popular moves. I have read the guides (well most of the threads at least) but I still can't incorporate them properly. First is Nair. It has more range (second hit I think) and can be auto canceled. I was told it works well against air dodge and spot dodge, but I have a hard time predicting these from my opponent. If I predict incorrectly, I get punished. I've tried the auto cancel, but I end up screwing up my spacing as the first hit of Nair is much shorter. What should I be looking for when I Nair? Secondly is the dtilt. It offers combo potential, IASA frames, so on and so forth. Except my opponents are primarily aerial based, which means they tend to jump over dtilts. I end up using ftilts instead, which occasionally get punished on shield as well even when tipped. I've seen people use dtilts after landing Fairs, but even then wouldn't side B be better? The only use I've really gotten out of dtilt so far is poking someone grabbing the ledge for too long.

7) What's the best way to land a KO? I've read threads on it of course (I did read the thread about KO moves!), but oftentimes the solutions don't cover the situations I encounter. Tipper Fsmash appears to be best, but it gets me punished more often than it finishes. A fresh Fair, Nair, and side B works, but they tend to require much much higher percentages to work (my opponent smash DIs better than I do I think). Uairs, Utilt, and Usmash are extremely situational and I never ever get them. If I launch my opponent up above me somehow, they tend to go for the edge to avoid the juggling game entirely. I've tried punishing it unsuccessfully. I sometimes do get Bairs, but that also tends to get me punished more than it succeeds due to its lag. Then there's Dair spike, which for the life of me I can't get. I've tried, believe you me. Up B out of shield seems to be my most reliable option, but shielding requires that I stay grounded, which tends to tip off my opponents well in advance (they're high damage and I'm suddenly not doing an aerial approach). Then there's the extremely rare up B stage spike and the shield breaker, which are just way too situational. Am I doing something wrong?

Thanks in advance for all the help!

 

[Megavitamins]

Question: Who can Marth hit with grab releases and with what attacks?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Elaborate please, Marth can grab release every character... If you mean what follow ups does he have then the obvious is the infinite release grab on Ness and Lucas, and he also has Grab Release-Dsmash on those two. On MK I believe he has grab release-Fair, and on Squirtle I believe he has some stuff as well with n air release, like with MK, and also on Wario he has some stuff, I'm not sure exactly what though.

 

[Steel]

Question: Who can Marth hit with grab releases and with what attacks?

this is outdated but..

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=179169

 

[feardragon64]

1) When doing a SH Fair, I have a problem deciding whether to DI forwards or backwards. Obviously on hit or if the opponent rolls behind you, you want to DI forwards. On hitting a shield, you want to DI backwards. However, it feels like I need to commit to the DI before I have enough time to react. This results in me just guessing the DI direction, sometimes getting punished for getting to close to a shield grab or losing out in potential damage when the opponent flies away. What suggestions do you have? For example, if it's just reacting, what should I be looking for to react to (as in, perhaps the color of a shield popping up, etc.)?

It depends a lot on the situation. You have a general idea of it, but really you should DI backwards when you're camping with fairs and not putting pressure. Also DI backwards if you think there's any chance that you'll get shield grabbed. To be entirely honest, I don't think you should DI forward very often, but if you do it will usually be in the form of a double fair. But again, I wouldn't recommend it unless you're putting pressure on or somehow know that the first one will hit.

2) Let's say that you've just performed a SHFF Fair (or a SHDF FF) and it gets shielded. Let's say that it was spaced properly and the opponent doesn't have a guaranteed punisher. What's the best option at this point? Is it better to defend with shield, spot dodge, roll, or to attack with jab or side B? Should I just start SH Fairing again? I tend to freeze up when this situation happens as I'm not sure if the 4 frames of lag are greater than the shield stun, which lets my opponent get free hits in on me.

If you spaced properly against most characters(i.e. most characters that Marth outranges), you should be fine and can even proceed to SHFF again. When I say spaced properly, I mean the first fair is a rising aerial and approaching, the second is retreating and you DI away from them. If they have a move they can outrange you with and probably will, either anticipate it and spot dodge to dancing blade punish or just space yourself a bit(SHAD backwards, etc.) If they choose to punish with a slow move though, you can dtilt it if you land in range and interrupt the attack. If they don't, then you shouldn't have to worry about anything since you spaced properly and they can't grab you or attack you.

3) I've been losing aerial wars against lower priority aerials. Take Wolf's Bair. I've been told that it's a timing problem. I'm either attacking too early or too late. Does anyone have any advice for this? I think this occurs because I attack with the goal of getting a tipper Fair (and I space my SH accordingly), but my opponent launches himself towards or away from me while using Bair, which screws my timing and spacing up royally. Any suggestions? Should I play more passively and Fair just out of range, hoping they'll launch themselves into my range? Or should I try Nair, or even a ground approach instead?

Aerials don't have priority. That's the thing. It's just a matter of range. Honestly, this is just a matter of practice in spacing. Learn to time your aerials to space perfectly against someone standing still, walking, moving, jumping toward you, jumping away from you, etc. Just practice.

4) I've been trying up B out of shield during an attack unsuccessfully. I have tap jump on. I think it's because I don't hit the up and the B at the same time, so there's a small window where I'm not in my invincibility frames. Do you have any advice as how to remedy this? Should I just up smash via the C stick to be safe?

First off, c-stick up smash with c-stick set to smash makes you spot dodge I'm pretty sure...which is probably what you don't want. But anyways, go into practice mode or get a friend to play as R.O.B. and help you time it until you get it. Have R.O.B. spam dsmash on you and just practice up'bing out of shield on it. You'll get it eventually.

5) After shielding an attack, when should you up B (better KO and hits behind, maybe more range) and when should you grab (refreshes)? Or, is an attempt at a side B punish worthwhile despite lacking the jump cancel? What about after a spot dodge? I usually follow successful spot dodges with side B, but is there a better option?

Grab at lower %'s just because Marth's grabs have relatively good setups for positioning, and it keeps dolphin slash fresh. Dolphin slash when you're positive that they either can't shield/spot dodge it or they won't be able to punish you for it(landing on the top platform of battlefield and recovering from it before they can attack). Dolphin slash is the high risk, high reward and grabs are the lower risk, lower reward. But if you know you can choose between the two at high percents, dolphin slash for the kill. Both moves are good for spacing yourself.

6) I'm not comfortable using certain popular moves. I have read the guides (well most of the threads at least) but I still can't incorporate them properly. First is Nair. It has more range (second hit I think) and can be auto canceled. I was told it works well against air dodge and spot dodge, but I have a hard time predicting these from my opponent. If I predict incorrectly, I get punished. I've tried the auto cancel, but I end up screwing up my spacing as the first hit of Nair is much shorter. What should I be looking for when I Nair? Secondly is the dtilt. It offers combo potential, IASA frames, so on and so forth. Except my opponents are primarily aerial based, which means they tend to jump over dtilts. I end up using ftilts instead, which occasionally get punished on shield as well even when tipped. I've seen people use dtilts after landing Fairs, but even then wouldn't side B be better? The only use I've really gotten out of dtilt so far is poking someone grabbing the ledge for too long.

Generally, the most predictable time for an opponent to air dodge is when they're recovering. When you jump off the stage and they EXPECT you to fair them, they'll airdodge to avoid the hit. That's a good time to use nair because the first hit will miss because of the air dodge, then you just have to follow their DI(probably toward stage) and hit them with the second hit as they come out of the air dodge. Spot dodge is harder to hit against with nair, and I honestly just prefer to use dancing blade to punish spot dodgers. Auto-cancel doesn't really follow up into anything and doesn't have enough knockback or hitstun to do much for you, so I wouldn't recommend it. Knowing when to nair is honestly about the mind-games going on in the match.
Dtilt is a godly move. It's doesn't offer combo potential though(lol combos). Dtilt is great because it's an easy trap, and Marth's best poke move. If you dtilt once and they spot dodge, dtilt again and it's a hit and you're spaced. If they shield, dtilt again and you'll shield poke their feet. If they roll behind you, punish with dancing blade. If they roll away, the position resets and no harm done to you(and if they have a slow and crappy roll you can punish their roll away with dancing blade or shield breaker as well). Obviously, don't bother using it against people who are constantly in the air unless they're on the ground. It's really for people who are being defensive. Also, the reason people don't use dancing blades after fairs is because if it's shielded, you're screwed. With dtilt, if it's shielded, the fair will wear down the shield and the dtilt can poke under the shield. I don't need to re-explain the dtilt trap again.
Ftilt is a great move for stopping approaches, but it's slow. It's usually best for stopping aerial approaches. If you want to stop a ground approach, use dtilt or even jab(only use one or two).
Also, if someone is on the edge for too long(blatantly), I recommend trying out the hyphen usmash since it's been discovered that it actually will work like a semi-spike. =] But dtilt works fine too.

7) What's the best way to land a KO? I've read threads on it of course (I did read the thread about KO moves!), but oftentimes the solutions don't cover the situations I encounter. Tipper Fsmash appears to be best, but it gets me punished more often than it finishes. A fresh Fair, Nair, and side B works, but they tend to require much much higher percentages to work (my opponent smash DIs better than I do I think). Uairs, Utilt, and Usmash are extremely situational and I never ever get them. If I launch my opponent up above me somehow, they tend to go for the edge to avoid the juggling game entirely. I've tried punishing it unsuccessfully. I sometimes do get Bairs, but that also tends to get me punished more than it succeeds due to its lag. Then there's Dair spike, which for the life of me I can't get. I've tried, believe you me. Up B out of shield seems to be my most reliable option, but shielding requires that I stay grounded, which tends to tip off my opponents well in advance (they're high damage and I'm suddenly not doing an aerial approach). Then there's the extremely rare up B stage spike and the shield breaker, which are just way too situational. Am I doing something wrong?

Marth has a few K.O. options.
1) Tipper forward smash
2) Tipper dsmash(tip is easy)
2) Dancing blades finishing with side ending
3) Dancing blades finishing with up ending
4) Dolphin slash(usually out of shield)
5) Untipped Utilt
6) Usmash
7) Tippered bair(usually for off stage gimps)
8) Tippered Dair(lawl)

Really, his powerful kill moves are tipped fsmash, dolphin slash and dsmash. None of them are reliable, especially fsmash. The rest of the moves usually require an annoyingly high %(100+) to actually kill. Bair is great for gimping, but not really the best kill move on stage because of the lag as you've mentioned. As for the juggle moves, if your opponent goes for the edge you can try following them and turn it from a juggle to a gimp game. You can ftilt before they grab the edge if they drop directly onto the ledge, or you can run off and Fast fall fair them if they try and recover far and low. Dair is incredibly showy, and can be airdodged to be avoided without repercussions a majority of the time. Don't use it against good players unless you know you can get it(snake's up+b doesn't allow him to air dodge immediately and has a fairly predictable path). Up+b out of shield is like the better punisher in reference to a shield grab. Use it to punish. Shieldbreaker is to lower shields and if you do somehow get a shield broken, free kill. Stage spike is situational and for people who screw up the gimp.


Anyways, good questions. I hope that helped.

 

[MysticKenji]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qzs-NyDgfQ

wtf happened? (0:15)

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Did the Marth DI up or something? He might have and the PK thunder hit under him.

 

[feardragon64]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qzs-NyDgfQ

wtf happened? (0:15)

Marth gets hit by pk thunder, momentum launches him upwards. Marth dolphin slashes, and somehow the momentum carries through the dolphin slash. Weird....

 

[SelfPossessed]

Thanks for responding feardragon64. It helps a lot.

1) I guess I can DI backwards to be on the safe side, but sometimes my opponent rolls behind me during my rising Fair. Since I'm already holding backwards, I can't re-space myself in time. What should I do then? I usually hope that my second Fair will hit or try a aerial dodge and hope. Is there a better option? The players in the vids I've watched don't seem to have this problem ever, so I must be doing something wrong.

2) My main problem with this is that I have to commit to a followup attack after my Fair without seeing if my attack was successful or not. Waiting to see if it was shielded, or even to try to see if the spacing was correct, before I execute my followup gets me killed. My opponent actually remarked that he was surprised he hit me with certain moves when I clearly had the advantage. With this in mind, what should my priority be when deciding on a followup move? You mentioned several ideal counters to certain situations, but given that I don't have time to analyze the situation, I need to know what moves have the highest chance of success.

3) I guess I'll just practice getting my behind handed to me until I finally understand it. I can space against opponents standing still and jumping straight up, but movement seems to get to me. Actually, I've been having some limited success baiting the enemy aerials by SH forwards, DI backwards, then FF Fair forwards to punish. It doesn't consistently work, but it helps nonetheless.

4) Practice it is. I'm pretty sure none of my opponents are willing to spend the time to help me practice like that, so I'll just keep trying it during matches until I get it.

5) So side B isn't a good option out of shield, but it is after a spot dodge? I understand that at low percents grab is preferable, and at high ones up B is superior, but what about at medium percents? Would side B help then? Could I just SH Fair then? Or, what if they end up behind me while still being at low percents? Grab obviously won't work, using up B means it won't be fresh later on, side B may not be fast enough, and up smash may not have the range necessary. What should I do then?

6) Thanks for the advice. That usage of Nair makes more sense, and I honestly didn't know that shields could be poked out of until recently. Dtilt seems pretty awesome, though I'm mostly going to stick with ftilt as my opponents are jump happy.

7) I get punished for using Dsmash almost all the time, so much that I've nearly removed it from my arsenal entirely. I'll try chasing down people after launching them upwards like you suggested. As for up B out of shield, assuming the opponent is at high percents, how do I ever land this thing? Shielding requires that I be grounded, and the moment I'm not trying to approach from the air they immediately know what I'm trying to do. In that case, is up B out of shield really not applicable as a finishing move unless they make a really really stupid mistake? What should I aim for then? Fsmash, Bair, Dsmash get punished. The juggles are difficult to land. Fair, Nair, and side B don't kill until super high percents. Dair is impossible to land. It's really frustrating to be down one stock when my opponent is at high percents and still unable to finish them off quickly before they give me a good 50% or so.

Thanks again for the help!

 

[DarkRunner00]

I'm a newbie at Brawl and I've been getting my behind handed to me. As such, I have a few questions that, once answered, will hopefully improve my Marth game. Hopefully, this is the right place to post.

1) When doing a SH Fair, I have a problem deciding whether to DI forwards or backwards. Obviously on hit or if the opponent rolls behind you, you want to DI forwards. On hitting a shield, you want to DI backwards. However, it feels like I need to commit to the DI before I have enough time to react. This results in me just guessing the DI direction, sometimes getting punished for getting to close to a shield grab or losing out in potential damage when the opponent flies away. What suggestions do you have? For example, if it's just reacting, what should I be looking for to react to (as in, perhaps the color of a shield popping up, etc.)?

DI backwards. Usually you can DI fowards to follow up, but with WILL be grabbed or punished if not spaced well. DI backwards. Also, you may want to to Falling Fair.

Sometimes I Fair beyond them, and the start a DB... but this is also punishable on shield.

There is always double fair, or DB (once landed) to punish those trying to punish you for "DI guessing" DI backwards or FF or Falling Fair, and get ready to punish them if they try to punish you. Marth's attacks come out quick, outside of shield -> grab/dash grab/outprioritizing attacks, Marth can keep his zone.

Also, if you're going to attack and get to close, learn to Buff a roll! That'll work as a mindgame and it'll allow you to punish them if they tried chasing you the wrong way.

2) Let's say that you've just performed a SHFF Fair (or a SHDF FF) and it gets shielded. Let's say that it was spaced properly and the opponent doesn't have a guaranteed punisher. What's the best option at this point? Is it better to defend with shield, spot dodge, roll, or to attack with jab or side B? Should I just start SH Fairing again? I tend to freeze up when this situation happens as I'm not sure if the 4 frames of lag are greater than the shield stun, which lets my opponent get free hits in on me.

Don't EVER do SHDF... IT WILL GET SHIELDED and YOU WILL GET PUNISHED.

Continue you with a Dtilt or DB. If they retreat, you can consider continuing approaching with Fairs. MIX YOUR FAIR APPROACHES. Full hop. Double Jump. Fair Wall. Falling Fair. Retreating Fair. Double Fair. Empty SH or FH. But try to follow up with Dtilt or DB if they remain ground.

Don't jab, unless they are too close and you want to space for a nicely tipped Dsmash (or sometimes? correct me someone, Fsmash)

Use DB Up combo, or Neutral combo at high(er*) percents it'll kill when tipped, or it'll will allow for a nice follow up sometimes. Plus Marth's aerial game is boss. Up Combo will get them into the air and you can just tear some a**.

Also, when you see good spacing. Sometimes from a tipped Fair (low percents) you can follow up with SB. It's great knockback. Plus if you time it right (wait approx. half a second of shield drain) it'll break shield. Or if that's too risky since SB has slow start up, you could DB down combo, and wear his shield.

Which will lead to SB. If they shield an Fsmash (not powershield it) then get your SB ready. It will break on tap. (remember if you break shield, space SB to have just the perfect tip and fully charge it; it'll start killing at 55%)

3) I've been losing aerial wars against lower priority aerials. Take Wolf's Bair. I've been told that it's a timing problem. I'm either attacking too early or too late. Does anyone have any advice for this? I think this occurs because I attack with the goal of getting a tipper Fair (and I space my SH accordingly), but my opponent launches himself towards or away from me while using Bair, which screws my timing and spacing up royally. Any suggestions? Should I play more passively and Fair just out of range, hoping they'll launch themselves into my range? Or should I try Nair, or even a ground approach instead?

Space properly. Fair.

Marth should have very little priority problem in the air with the cast. Spacing. Learn and practice. You want everything tipped. Or things untipped so you can chain another attack.

Just practice on this thing. Go and fight level 3's and learn to space. It doesn't matter if they're attacking or not, YET. You want spacing. Priority comes later. You'll learn which attacks you outprioritize and which attacks you must airdodge/counter.

4) I've been trying up B out of shield during an attack unsuccessfully. I have tap jump on. I think it's because I don't hit the up and the B at the same time, so there's a small window where I'm not in my invincibility frames. Do you have any advice as how to remedy this? Should I just up smash via the C stick to be safe?

No. DS is a godly punisher. (I must confess that I don't utilize its potential, since I shield drop -> DS rather than Shield -> DS... Tap Jump problems) Learn to reverse DS and normal DS out of shield. It takes practice.

I'd say do not use it as a punisher on stages without platforms or just if you don't think it'll connect. It is incredibly punishable in return.

5) After shielding an attack, when should you up B (better KO and hits behind, maybe more range) and when should you grab (refreshes)? Or, is an attempt at a side B punish worthwhile despite lacking the jump cancel? What about after a spot dodge? I usually follow successful spot dodges with side B, but is there a better option?

Same as before? DS. DB. or shield grab.

Spotdodging and rolling is situational, but usually if you can. Punish. Don't open yourself to BE punished.

6) I'm not comfortable using certain popular moves. I have read the guides (well most of the threads at least) but I still can't incorporate them properly. First is Nair. It has more range (second hit I think) and can be auto canceled. I was told it works well against air dodge and spot dodge, but I have a hard time predicting these from my opponent. If I predict incorrectly, I get punished. I've tried the auto cancel, but I end up screwing up my spacing as the first hit of Nair is much shorter. What should I be looking for when I Nair? Secondly is the dtilt. It offers combo potential, IASA frames, so on and so forth. Except my opponents are primarily aerial based, which means they tend to jump over dtilts. I end up using ftilts instead, which occasionally get punished on shield as well even when tipped. I've seen people use dtilts after landing Fairs, but even then wouldn't side B be better? The only use I've really gotten out of dtilt so far is poking someone grabbing the ledge for too long.

Nair is great for people who rather Airdodge. Also, Nair is good against larger cast. Nair tipped will kill. And it IS your ledge return move. It is superior to Fair in most ways. (BUT Fair is still reliable for several situations)

Don't use Nair as an approach. Its typically a followup. Or an edgeguard. Or an edge return (previously stated)

When I use Nair, it's usually preceded by a Fair or Double Fair (that connect). Just because if they DI towards or away from me. If I DI towards them, Nair can potentially tip. Also it just keeps them in the air.

...

I've never really applied dtilt to my game. With the exception of when I counterpick Delfino Plaza.

Dtilt sets up for DB. Dtilt -> DB (dash towards them). It can also follow up a Fair that is did not connect. (or retreating Fair)

Also, it's a nice measure, if your Dtilt shadow hits your opponent, this tells you to immediately Fsmash and it'll be tipped. That's what the IASA frame will do. That and allow you to use it to set up.

Also. Dtilt is used a poke. If you're having a shield off with an opponent. start dtilting them (space properly, not beside. They'll just grab you or punish you) When their feet are out of their shield Dtilt will come out and hit them.

Like the grab release trap (on walls) Marth has his dtilt trap. Which leads to an Usmash.

7) What's the best way to land a KO? I've read threads on it of course (I did read the thread about KO moves!), but oftentimes the solutions don't cover the situations I encounter. Tipper Fsmash appears to be best, but it gets me punished more often than it finishes. A fresh Fair, Nair, and side B works, but they tend to require much much higher percentages to work (my opponent smash DIs better than I do I think). Uairs, Utilt, and Usmash are extremely situational and I never ever get them. If I launch my opponent up above me somehow, they tend to go for the edge to avoid the juggling game entirely. I've tried punishing it unsuccessfully. I sometimes do get Bairs, but that also tends to get me punished more than it succeeds due to its lag. Then there's Dair spike, which for the life of me I can't get. I've tried, believe you me. Up B out of shield seems to be my most reliable option, but shielding requires that I stay grounded, which tends to tip off my opponents well in advance (they're high damage and I'm suddenly not doing an aerial approach). Then there's the extremely rare up B stage spike and the shield breaker, which are just way too situational. Am I doing something wrong?

Thanks in advance for all the help!

Remember which attacks you've used. If anything is still fresh aim to TIP it. All of Marth's aerials will kill when tipped and fresh (at decent percents)

On the ground. Use Fsmash for zoning. It'll kill them tipped. Utilt. Utilt. Utilt. Fast and Killer. Dsmash (tipped)

Use DB up combo and neutral combo. Tipped will tend to kill. Up combo WILL kill at high percents (tipped)

Even Usmash is great.
...

Marth is a defensive character. His finishers are built into his punishers. And I only mean dolphin slash. Shield -> DS. Will kill. Greatest killer.

Racking damage with Marth is ez. Most attacks do 12%+... so don't sweat it. Don't use go Fsmash happy. or Dsmash happy. Just know your spacing and react to which will tip. That goes to everything other attack.

MINUS DASH ATTACK. NEVER. NEVER. NEVER. USE IT. It is garbage.

Marth is also a fairly good gimper. You don't need high percents if you can make your opponents unable to return to the stage.

 

[misterbushido01]

is double fair a good approach?

 

[feardragon64]

Thanks for responding feardragon64. It helps a lot.

Np. I enjoy answering intelligent questions

1) I guess I can DI backwards to be on the safe side, but sometimes my opponent rolls behind me during my rising Fair. Since I'm already holding backwards, I can't re-space myself in time. What should I do then? I usually hope that my second Fair will hit or try a aerial dodge and hope. Is there a better option? The players in the vids I've watched don't seem to have this problem ever, so I must be doing something wrong.

I hate to say it but you just need to be a bit faster. You should be able to cover the distance and end up behind them even if they roll. If they are really predictable with it though, I suppose you could try reverse dolphin slash just before you land(i.e. when they will presumably shield grab). But this probably isn't the best option. Just practice your retreating fairs. You should have enough time to DI forward instead to get out of shield grabbing range.

2) My main problem with this is that I have to commit to a followup attack after my Fair without seeing if my attack was successful or not. Waiting to see if it was shielded, or even to try to see if the spacing was correct, before I execute my followup gets me killed. My opponent actually remarked that he was surprised he hit me with certain moves when I clearly had the advantage. With this in mind, what should my priority be when deciding on a followup move? You mentioned several ideal counters to certain situations, but given that I don't have time to analyze the situation, I need to know what moves have the highest chance of success.

That's the thing. You shouldn't have to worry too much about reaction time if you make the second one retreating. I hope you're using the c-stick for aerials. Jump forward and as soon as you leave the ground DI away and c-stick fair twice(once for each fair). And at some point, theory reaches a road block. You have to react to what they're doing. You can try and base it off of the actual character's capabilities(you're safe if you outrange all their moves), but you won't always have the certainty so you just have to try and figure out a play pattern. It's the "mindgames." It's stuff that goes down in the match itself that you have to make decisions on for yourself.

3) I guess I'll just practice getting my behind handed to me until I finally understand it. I can space against opponents standing still and jumping straight up, but movement seems to get to me. Actually, I've been having some limited success baiting the enemy aerials by SH forwards, DI backwards, then FF Fair forwards to punish. It doesn't consistently work, but it helps nonetheless.

4) Practice it is. I'm pretty sure none of my opponents are willing to spend the time to help me practice like that, so I'll just keep trying it during matches until I get it.

It might be that different aerial speeds for different characters is getting to you. Realize different characters move at different speeds. If a fox is approaching you, he'll get to you slower than a jigglypuff. Sorry, but it's just practice.

5) So side B isn't a good option out of shield, but it is after a spot dodge? I understand that at low percents grab is preferable, and at high ones up B is superior, but what about at medium percents? Would side B help then? Could I just SH Fair then? Or, what if they end up behind me while still being at low percents? Grab obviously won't work, using up B means it won't be fresh later on, side B may not be fast enough, and up smash may not have the range necessary. What should I do then?

For dancing blades, it's alright to do if you know you can hit them before they can shield it. As for mid percents, it's your call in the match. A lot of it has to do with positioning. If you can hit them with either but you know dolphin slash won't kill, you have to decide which one will be more advantageous. Maybe if you dolphin slash you can go for a gimp because they'll be off the edge. Maybe you don't want to give them too much space so you'd rather grab, ping, and throw. You COULD SH fair, but realize up+b out of shield and grabs are meant to space yourself when they've gotten too close, as opposed to SH fair being a tool to keep them from getting in close.
And if they get behind you, anticipate their attack and spot dodge? If you feel like you have the time you can do a retreating bair with c-stick or even a SHAD away.

7) I get punished for using Dsmash almost all the time, so much that I've nearly removed it from my arsenal entirely. I'll try chasing down people after launching them upwards like you suggested. As for up B out of shield, assuming the opponent is at high percents, how do I ever land this thing? Shielding requires that I be grounded, and the moment I'm not trying to approach from the air they immediately know what I'm trying to do. In that case, is up B out of shield really not applicable as a finishing move unless they make a really really stupid mistake? What should I aim for then? Fsmash, Bair, Dsmash get punished. The juggles are difficult to land. Fair, Nair, and side B don't kill until super high percents. Dair is impossible to land. It's really frustrating to be down one stock when my opponent is at high percents and still unable to finish them off quickly before they give me a good 50% or so.

Dsmash comes out really fast, but if you whiff it you're screwed. Use it as a punisher when you know it can hit but don't have time to space another kill move. The other time to use it is on roll dodgers.
As for the up+b out of shield, mix it up. Don't GO for the up+b out of shield. It's a punisher. You don't GO for the punish, you let them make a mistake that you can punish. It's a reactionary thing.
One of marth's problems is he doesn't have any truly reliable kill moves. You have to open them up to a situation where you can hit them with something. It is frustrating, but that's just one of Marth's weaknesses. You need to be reactionary about getting kill moves. But that doesn't mean you should just wait for the situation to appear before you. Figure out a way to open that situation up.


A lot of the battles will depend on the actual context of the match, the inner workings of the match and the so called "mind games." If there was a 100% safe way to win with Marth if you played him perfectly, he would be god tier. Not every situation will have an advantageous answer, and sometimes you'll have to settle for minimal damage. We're human and we make mistakes. Do your best to avoid the situations where you'll be at a disadvantage, and control the match. Good luck. =]

 

[feardragon64]

is double fair a good approach?

Shield grab =X

10pingsandathrow

 

[misterbushido01]

Shield grab =X

10pingsandathrow

thought so

 

[DarkRunner00]

yep. Double fair isn't good.

 

[SelfPossessed]

Thanks for the help DarkRunner00 and feardragon64.

This post is a bit long, so bear with me. It's split into three sections, the first a response to DarkRunner00, the second a response to feardragon64, and the third two additional questions.

-=DarkRunner00=-

(1) I've been DIng backwards more often as feardragon64 suggested (I lose potential damage when I successfully land a Fair), but I've also started DIng forwards behind them and tossing out a Bair to mix it up. If I don't abuse it, it seems to work. Furthermore, I've been implementing the double jump more often to help escape disadvantageous situations (SH Fair to Jump). I also almost always double fair, usually FFing the second one, while DIing away.

However, I don't know what buffing a roll is. Could you explain that to me? I'm assuming that buff means buffering, but when do I have the opportunity to buffer in brawl?

(2) I SHDF FF while DIng away. Thus far, I haven't gotten punished for it if I spaced correctly (it's well out of grab range). If my opponent starts punishing it, I'll start mixing that up more. I'll definitely keep it in mind though.

I've also been trying to implement dtilt more after Fairs, but I've been having trouble landing it. Right now, I tend to follow up successful Fairs with more SH Fairs as it seems to have a higher success rate. DB I no longer use as a followup to Fair (**** you shield grab). I reserve it mainly for punishing, though sometimes I dash forward and DB when they are expecting an aerial approach.

As for my mixups, I have a few now that I've tested successfully against my opponents. I stay away from full hops though (I experimented with them and got some success, but I found it risky as Marth is too floaty and has a crappy Dair). I do approaching SH Fairs (sometimes double, the second always FFed, sometimes going behind them for a Bair), retreating SH Fairs (I love you tap jump), and dash forward to DB. My favorite mixup now though is to bait a reaction with a SH forwards to DI back. If they react, I can sometimes get a free Fair. If they don't, I double jump away to safety, using a FFed Fair if they give chase.

DB up at higher percents tends to miss...they get knocked too far away. At higher percents I just do the forward version as it's more consistent.

SB I find really situational. I only throw it out against certain characters that my opponent likes to shield with more. I find it too slow otherwise, even as a surprise factor. Aerial approaches eat it alive. I also never ever aim to actually break a shield with it. Instead, I just want them to sweat a little with a tiny shield as Marth's sword suddenly becomes unblockable. :D I found that continually trying to break a shield tends to get me too aggressive and severely punished.

(3) I know, practice practice practice. It would SERIOUSLY help if someone would post some screenshots of Marth and every possible opponent that showed the exact perfect spacing for each situation. Right now, I'm just winging it.

(4) I've gotten better at it already. I just hit the B a little sooner, which seems to do the trick for me. It worked against G&W's stupid turtle.

(5) I was more asking when to use which punishment. feardragon64 already discussed it though.

(6) Aha! I never thought of using Nair as a ledge return move. I've been getting killed on the ledges recently, and this is something I'll definitely try out soon.

When the opportunity presents itself, I've been mixing up Fair and Nair as edgeguard moves off the stage. If they're hugging the ledge though, I stick to dtilt.

As for dtilt followups, I'm predictable and go for aerial approaches after a successful one. DB is getting more and more risky for me as my opponent is shield grabbing them too often for my tastes. Fsmash after a dtilt I never ever attempt. The chance of them rolling immediately and then punishing me with a DACUS is way too high (I eat too many of those already).

Dtilt killing shield I just learned from feardragon64. I like the idea, though I find it difficult to implement as my opponent loves his jump.

(7) Tipping fresh aerials is tough for me. Fair is so much safer and easier to space. I'll work on it though, especially with Nair.

Fsmash I've been using when least expected, else I get punished.

I'm never ever in range to Utilt or Usmash finish. Getting into its range means that I've screwed up my spacing. How would you get these moves off? Also, DB up tends to knock them too far away to land the last hit at higher percentages. How do you get this one off?

My opponent is also pretty **** good at stopping my gimps, probably because I suck at gimping. They like to start their recovery when they're further down, making Nair and Fair impossible to land. That or they use recoveries with super armor. I usually let them grab the ledge and then try pressuring them from there.

-=feardragon64=-

(1) I've been having success with mixing in more retreating SH Fairs. This discourages them from rolling in. I will work on the reaction thing though as I still come across them rolling into my SH Fair approach from time to time.

(2) I use the A button for the first aerial during a SH approach (I slide my thumb from Y to A quickly while holding forward) and then switch to the C stick for the second Fair. All other aerials I use the C stick (retreating I use tap jump backwards C stick forwards).

And I DO have to worry about reaction time even if I space it right. If I don't react fast enough, I sometimes eat a DACUS or some other long ranged attack. For now, I'll rely on trying different moves with my opponent and seeing what works. Right now, I tend to be more defensive and shield after getting my second Fair shielded.

(3 and 4) Wolf's airspeed is just so extremely different from other characters. He moves extremely quickly both vertically and horizontally. I'm slowly getting used to it though.

(5) The thing is, I'm never sure after shielding a move if I have time to land a DB. I don't know the shield stun statistics. I'll experiment with DB after shielding and having the opponent land behind me. If it doesn't work, I'll try retreating Bairs.

(7) I usually use Dsmash when my opponent makes a mistake by landing with a really laggy move, leaving themselves open. I find it inconsistent against rollers as roll can still avoid the entire attack.

As for KOing, how would I open up a situation to punish them? Could you give me some examples of how to do so? The most success I've had so far was to bait a move via SH forward and DI backwards.

-=NEW QUESTIONS=-

Well, I've seen some improvement in my Marth recently. My spacing has gotten a tiny bit better again. More importantly however, I've managed to find a counter to the Bair spam. Hyphen Usmash solves against the approach Bair spam off a full hop. Although a retreating Bair can punish it, this at least gives me SOME option to stop the approaching Bair (which can't be shield grabbed). That makes my opponent more wary, which then opens up opportunities to SH Fair approach, retreating SH Fair, dash in DB, or even baiting a reaction with SH forwards then DI back.

However, I still find myself struggling in certain areas. As such, I have three additional questions to ask.

(8) Most of the damage I take tends to occur when I'm trying to get back on the stage after grabbing the ledge. Matches that I'm winning can suddenly turn around just because I can't get back on the stage properly. What moves would you suggest?

I currently use several options. I hold back and Fair forwards, which hits them if they're too close. I hold back, short hop, then Fair, which tends to get me shield grabbed or hit out of. I hold back, short hop, then counter, which gets me shield grabbed. I tap down then DS to refresh my ledge. And once in a blue moon, I'll roll or full jump from the ledge.

Even with these options, I get obliterated. DarkRunner00 suggested using Nair to get back on, which I will DEFINITELY try. However, are there any other suggestions as to how to get back on?

(9) After killing my opponent once, they get back on the stage with invincibility frames. What is my best option at this point in time? I usually try either rolling, SHADing, countering, grabbing the ledge, or just jumping over them. Even still, I tend to get hurt pretty badly at the start of each of my opponent's stocks. Any suggestions as how to survive here would be most welcome.

(10) Now that my opponent doesn't spam Bairs as much, he's starting to projectile camp. I've never really faced projectile campers before, so I'm pretty bad at stopping it. What should I do?

The projectile in question is Wolf's blaster, which I believe can't be out prioritized with Marth's sword. I'm looking for advice against any projectile that can't be deflected with the sword.

I use PS while approaching, but I'm not perfect and I get hurt at times. SHADing I find really difficult as I tend to SHAD right into his grab. Jumping over the projectiles can be difficult when he SHs them, or just uses DACUS to punish. How can I close in without taking an absurd amount of damage?


Thanks in advance for all the help!

 

[Steel]

8. Let's get facts down. Marth SUCKS on the ledge. Don't feel bad if you are getting destroyed there, everyone does at some point in there game. Your options aren't good, you have to outsmart your opponent. When you are on the ledge don't just immediately get up while barely knowing what you are doing, you have to think.

The options that you listed aren't very good. All of them are easily punished. Double jump nair is probably Marth's most effective way of getting up, but even that is easily shield grabbed. You have to mix it up with that, regular get up, roll, ledge hop, and if you KNOW he is going to attack then counter.

9. Never roll behind your opponent when they get back on stage, a good player will figure this out very quickly. You have to use Marth's agility and just work your way around the stage while trying to not get hit. Also don't underestimate sitting in your shield in this situation.. but it usually won't work more than once a match. You can also hop on the ledge and ledge stall, but be weary of the fact that you still have to get up which could be a problem.

10. Wolf's blaster shouldn't be much of a problem at all. Seems like you just have to practice your PS'ng. Don't SHAD right into him.. just do it to gain ground. Once he is almost within your range he should probably stop spamming as it isn't safe anymore. If he is then hit him with dancing blade.

 

[Pr0phetic]

Is Fox, Falco, Wolf, and Snake the only chars Marth has a FThrow --> Dair 0-death?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I think Falco is the only real one, Steel can correct me if i'm wrong.

And I have a question. Do the people who were around when he was, do you miss OmegaSephiroth? I know I do.

 

[SelfPossessed]

Thanks for the reply Steel2nd

(8) Can you elaborate on what double jump Nair is? Is this hold back to fall, then use your second jump with a auto canceled Nair? Or do I jump onto the stage, jump again, then try to Nair from behind them?

Also, how do I get up normally with tap jump on? I sometimes get it when I tilt up, but it's inconsistent and usually comes out as a jump. Is there an easier way?

(9) By using Marth's agility, I'm assuming you mean jumping and moving around. I've tried that and got hurt badly for that too. I tried fake jumping over my opponent after they expect it, DIing back, only to get Fsmashed to my doom. Grabbing the ledge is the safest thing in terms of surviving the initial invincibility frames, but then getting back up gets me hurt just as much if not more.

Aside from ledge stall then, what else is good? Rolling if not abused might work. Shielding if not abused might work. Spot dodge is stupidly risky. SH counter has worked once in a blue moon. SHAD is nice, but can get predictable just like rolling. Jumping over them gets reacted to real fast as Marth's vertical air speed is too slow, so I'm iffy on doing that now. Is there anything else that I'm missing?

(10) I think my reaction time is just too slow. When it's that close and I attack, I eat a blaster. If I'm waiting for the blaster so I can punish, I get thrown. I'll just have to work on this then.

In the general case though, is PS Marth's best solution against projectiles that can't be deflected? Or is every projectile unique (example, you're supposed to SHAD Zelda's Din's Fire)?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

To get up normally I believe you just press toward the ledge, although I may be wrong.

 

[chaos_]

whats the best grab release setup on mk?

 

[Nightshine]

To get up normally I believe you just press toward the ledge, although I may be wrong.

Yeah S.O.L.I.D. thats how you get up normally.

 

[DarkRunner00]

Thanks for the help DarkRunner00 and feardragon64.

This post is a bit long, so bear with me. It's split into three sections, the first a response to DarkRunner00, the second a response to feardragon64, and the third two additional questions.

-=DarkRunner00=-

(1) I've been DIng backwards more often as feardragon64 suggested (I lose potential damage when I successfully land a Fair), but I've also started DIng forwards behind them and tossing out a Bair to mix it up. If I don't abuse it, it seems to work. Furthermore, I've been implementing the double jump more often to help escape disadvantageous situations (SH Fair to Jump). I also almost always double fair, usually FFing the second one, while DIing away.

However, I don't know what buffing a roll is. Could you explain that to me? I'm assuming that buff means buffering, but when do I have the opportunity to buffer in brawl?

yah, i meant buffering. The way I do it is much like L canceling in melee. Before an attack ends, hold R and tap a direction. Someone correct me.

Bair is also amazing. Aside from Bairing when the roll under you. You can add RAR Bair. Also. When you Bair them. Don't fast fall and it'll allow you to start a Fair. Usually if your Bair connects, just DI closer to them and Fair them. This isn't always safe since, you can be shield grabbed.

But the Bair -> Fair work fairly well as an edgeguard. Full hopped and doubled jumped that is. Bair then wait for an opportune moment to Fair. Don't use it as a aggressor, but rather as a wall in defense.

(2) I SHDF FF while DIng away. Thus far, I haven't gotten punished for it if I spaced correctly (it's well out of grab range). If my opponent starts punishing it, I'll start mixing that up more. I'll definitely keep it in mind though.

I've also been trying to implement dtilt more after Fairs, but I've been having trouble landing it. Right now, I tend to follow up successful Fairs with more SH Fairs as it seems to have a higher success rate. DB I no longer use as a followup to Fair (**** you shield grab). I reserve it mainly for punishing, though sometimes I dash forward and DB when they are expecting an aerial approach.

As for my mixups, I have a few now that I've tested successfully against my opponents. I stay away from full hops though (I experimented with them and got some success, but I found it risky as Marth is too floaty and has a crappy Dair). I do approaching SH Fairs (sometimes double, the second always FFed, sometimes going behind them for a Bair), retreating SH Fairs (I love you tap jump), and dash forward to DB. My favorite mixup now though is to bait a reaction with a SH forwards to DI back. If they react, I can sometimes get a free Fair. If they don't, I double jump away to safety, using a FFed Fair if they give chase.

DB up at higher percents tends to miss...they get knocked too far away. At higher percents I just do the forward version as it's more consistent.

SB I find really situational. I only throw it out against certain characters that my opponent likes to shield with more. I find it too slow otherwise, even as a surprise factor. Aerial approaches eat it alive. I also never ever aim to actually break a shield with it. Instead, I just want them to sweat a little with a tiny shield as Marth's sword suddenly becomes unblockable. :D I found that continually trying to break a shield tends to get me too aggressive and severely punished.

For dtilt, a signal to use it is if your opponent hasn't retreated but is shield, trying to punish out of shield. Usually their shield will wear out enough by the time you to dtilt them... so you may potentially poke them.

Err on side of caution, always. But if your first Dtilt doesn't connect just add 1 or 2 more... and if they don't... Shield/spot dodge (if you're too close) or if add in an Fsmash (to zone)

I actually have the same problem as you. I tend to never use my Dtilt.

DB Up tends to miss at high percents, but will kill at those percents. If you're getting no luck with it. Just stick with DB neutral.

DB is also a good ledge guard if you can space the fourth hit (down) to just have hitboxes off the stage. If I didn't mention.

Well, I don't think I said SB being situational, but congrats. That's what is it used for. If you notice your opponents to either shield alot or just shield a powerful attack (and they still try to shield) DON'T CHARGE SB. Just tab it and watch it connect (or miss)

(3) I know, practice practice practice. It would SERIOUSLY help if someone would post some screenshots of Marth and every possible opponent that showed the exact perfect spacing for each situation. Right now, I'm just winging it.

Go to the video thread. Watch VietGeek, Neo, Ken, Steel2nd... and hella other people. Just watch videos to see how people space...

I forget if you said if you're "new" new... but... seriously, if you consistently keep using Marth and keep practicing JUST to tip... knowing between tipped spacing and shadow hit spacing will be second nature.

Fight Lvl 3 comps and just practice spacing. Don't practice killing them or comboing them... just get your spacing good. Sorry... but spacing is something no one can really show you or teach you. It comes through practice and become habit.

(4) I've gotten better at it already. I just hit the B a little sooner, which seems to do the trick for me. It worked against G&W's stupid turtle.

Perfect! I wanted to bring that up at somepoint... The turtle can't be shield grabbed before the "final" hit. But it is DS able from shield.

(5) I was more asking when to use which punishment. feardragon64 already discussed it though.

oh ok.

(6) Aha! I never thought of using Nair as a ledge return move. I've been getting killed on the ledges recently, and this is something I'll definitely try out soon.

When the opportunity presents itself, I've been mixing up Fair and Nair as edgeguard moves off the stage. If they're hugging the ledge though, I stick to dtilt.

As for dtilt followups, I'm predictable and go for aerial approaches after a successful one. DB is getting more and more risky for me as my opponent is shield grabbing them too often for my tastes. Fsmash after a dtilt I never ever attempt. The chance of them rolling immediately and then punishing me with a DACUS is way too high (I eat too many of those already).

Dtilt killing shield I just learned from feardragon64. I like the idea, though I find it difficult to implement as my opponent loves his jump.

For ledge return and anti-ledge guarding... Look at MikeHAZE videos...

I picked up ledge drop -> Fair -> DS... quite amazing really...

as a ledge guard like Nair, you can also Bair or DB them...

Bair can potentially stage spike them if their invincibility frames wear off (in time) so time it nicely. Also DB will interrupt them and you can chain in DS and stage spike them at times. (not so reliable, but it works.) DB is more reliable to hit them, but Bair is more reliable to kill them (when opponents are attempting to ledge hog you)

Also, if Bair is a decent anti-ledge guard... if you space the tip of Bair to hit... It's hard to explain... but you Bair towards the stage... and have the tip reach just above the stage's floor. This works well when a Pikachu tries to Thunder at the edge (or edge guards like that)

Do not do this against characters that can spike, on the ground. (Link, Ike, Luigi... etc.) If spaced wrong it'll kill you.

...

You don't always have to follow up dtilt... it's a good spacer. It'll pushed them away when they're pressuring you. It always the game to be under your control again. (if you've lost control and your opponent is the one commanding the pressure)

This is Roy in melee where Dtilt -> Aerial is amazing. Dtilt -> Fsmash or Dtilt -> DB (chase). They're more reliable.

(7) Tipping fresh aerials is tough for me. Fair is so much safer and easier to space. I'll work on it though, especially with Nair.

Fsmash I've been using when least expected, else I get punished.

I'm never ever in range to Utilt or Usmash finish. Getting into its range means that I've screwed up my spacing. How would you get these moves off? Also, DB up tends to knock them too far away to land the last hit at higher percentages. How do you get this one off?

My opponent is also pretty **** good at stopping my gimps, probably because I suck at gimping. They like to start their recovery when they're further down, making Nair and Fair impossible to land. That or they use recoveries with super armor. I usually let them grab the ledge and then try pressuring them from there.

Atleast add Uair to your aerial repertiore... Fresh Uair will kill. And it an insane juggler attack.

Fair -> Uair -> Fsmash... is an awesome set up.

Utilt is better than Usmash. It comes out in 6 frames (correct me) and Usmash comes out in 12 frames. Utilt will kill at tip. And will still have insane knock back.

It has about 170 degrees of range, so don't sweet it. If they're on either side... pull out and it'll launch them up... allow to follow up with a fair, Uair, or Nair.

Usmash...

Well, Neo's Marth Usmashes as an edge guard a lot... i think its about timing though... and it's been discussed that it can stage spike (for those still on the ledge) for a few characters on the roster...

Dash -> Usmash if ever... it's nice and powerful.

if you don't want to add a strong gimping game, watch some of VietGeek's video... he almost never goes off stage, but he has one of the sexiest Marths I've seen.

-=NEW QUESTIONS=-

Well, I've seen some improvement in my Marth recently. My spacing has gotten a tiny bit better again. More importantly however, I've managed to find a counter to the Bair spam. Hyphen Usmash solves against the approach Bair spam off a full hop. Although a retreating Bair can punish it, this at least gives me SOME option to stop the approaching Bair (which can't be shield grabbed). That makes my opponent more wary, which then opens up opportunities to SH Fair approach, retreating SH Fair, dash in DB, or even baiting a reaction with SH forwards then DI back.

However, I still find myself struggling in certain areas. As such, I have three additional questions to ask.

(8) Most of the damage I take tends to occur when I'm trying to get back on the stage after grabbing the ledge. Matches that I'm winning can suddenly turn around just because I can't get back on the stage properly. What moves would you suggest?


I currently use several options. I hold back and Fair forwards, which hits them if they're too close. I hold back, short hop, then Fair, which tends to get me shield grabbed or hit out of. I hold back, short hop, then counter, which gets me shield grabbed. I tap down then DS to refresh my ledge. And once in a blue moon, I'll roll or full jump from the ledge.

Even with these options, I get obliterated. DarkRunner00 suggested using Nair to get back on, which I will DEFINITELY try. However, are there any other suggestions as to how to get back on?

Okay. It depends on who're you're playing... It sounds like a GnW... if you're on the ledge, ledge drop fair (MIKEHAZE STYLE) so you can keep GnW away from the edge. Under 100% you can hit him from ledge attack. Bait him to attack and punish him with ledge attack. If he's charging a smash or waiting...

Get back on stage by ledge jump or ledge drop -> AD... or if you think you can do it ledge jump -> cancel it into a counter. or just ledge jump and retreat...

Marth has a weaker over all ledge return game. But it's still good. Just remember ALL your options and see if you can bait a reaction that you want.

Nair return is amazing for lots of people... but be weary it's not the solve all be all solutions of ledge returning. You can still mix up Fair return, but it's just more punishable...

Don't try to agress when you're on the ledge... the PRESSURE IS ON YOU at that point... remove that pressure ASAP. Run away.

(9) After killing my opponent once, they get back on the stage with invincibility frames. What is my best option at this point in time? I usually try either rolling, SHADing, countering, grabbing the ledge, or just jumping over them. Even still, I tend to get hurt pretty badly at the start of each of my opponent's stocks. Any suggestions as how to survive here would be most welcome.

Wait until the invci's wear off. Mind games.

AD or Roll behind them... retreat to the ledge. (well I was just discussing how Marth's game is stellar there, but ya... I do it sometimes)

I ledge hug (quickly) to dodge projectiles...

or when ZZS starts with her items... just bait her to throw and immediately hug the ledge...

Just what for them to come off... it's no that long.

Learn the duration of the invinci,, and you can actually bait opponents into DB... by slowly timing it...

This isn't a big worry. Just run away and roll around. Jump around. spot dodge.

(10) Now that my opponent doesn't spam Bairs as much, he's starting to projectile camp. I've never really faced projectile campers before, so I'm pretty bad at stopping it. What should I do?

The projectile in question is Wolf's blaster, which I believe can't be out prioritized with Marth's sword. I'm looking for advice against any projectile that can't be deflected with the sword.

I use PS while approaching, but I'm not perfect and I get hurt at times. SHADing I find really difficult as I tend to SHAD right into his grab. Jumping over the projectiles can be difficult when he SHs them, or just uses DACUS to punish. How can I close in without taking an absurd amount of damage?


Thanks in advance for all the help!

Fan projectiles.

Wolf projectiles... pshield. Walk, pshield. Walk, spot dodge.

When you get close he'll Fsmash. Bait him to do that and shield. Grab him... or DS him. If he's gonna projectile spam, just wait. If there are platforms use those to get to him.

Another thing to add is the aerial canceled platform drop. If you're above someone... rather than drop down use a falling fair to drop to through a platform.

Weave and add mind games and time you're second jump... and approach and Falling Fair... I can't give advice too much against wolf, since... I have a difficult time against that match up...

Watch wolf vs. Marth videos.

BUT KEEP WOLF AT FAIR TIP RANGE DISTANCE.... PRESSURE HIM.

 

[DarkRunner00]

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[DarkRunner00]

Thanks for the reply Steel2nd

(8) Can you elaborate on what double jump Nair is? Is this hold back to fall, then use your second jump with a auto canceled Nair? Or do I jump onto the stage, jump again, then try to Nair from behind them?

Also, how do I get up normally with tap jump on? I sometimes get it when I tilt up, but it's inconsistent and usually comes out as a jump. Is there an easier way?

(9) By using Marth's agility, I'm assuming you mean jumping and moving around. I've tried that and got hurt badly for that too. I tried fake jumping over my opponent after they expect it, DIing back, only to get Fsmashed to my doom. Grabbing the ledge is the safest thing in terms of surviving the initial invincibility frames, but then getting back up gets me hurt just as much if not more.

Aside from ledge stall then, what else is good? Rolling if not abused might work. Shielding if not abused might work. Spot dodge is stupidly risky. SH counter has worked once in a blue moon. SHAD is nice, but can get predictable just like rolling. Jumping over them gets reacted to real fast as Marth's vertical air speed is too slow, so I'm iffy on doing that now. Is there anything else that I'm missing?

(10) I think my reaction time is just too slow. When it's that close and I attack, I eat a blaster. If I'm waiting for the blaster so I can punish, I get thrown. I'll just have to work on this then.

In the general case though, is PS Marth's best solution against projectiles that can't be deflected? Or is every projectile unique (example, you're supposed to SHAD Zelda's Din's Fire)?

8. Towards stage as SOLID stated.

9. Don't go off the stage too often... the ledge safety is only for mindgames... and to bait a reaction you want. Nothing more.. stage on ground an wait out... 2 seconds of invinci...

Spot dodge is NOT useless... SHAD... roll... play around for 2 seconds and begin a DB if he's close to you... or even dtilt... once the frames wear off... you'll be mid attack... Nair too...

Mix it up... Fool him once shame on him. Fool him twice good for you. Fool him thrice... awesome mindgames....

10. If not pshield, shield. If not spot dodge... if not SHAD without approaching...

most projectiles are fannable... if not just spot dodge, pshield or SHAD them. I never SHAD din's fire... I may now if that's what you're really suppose to do, but I just shield it...