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Ask a quick question, get a quick answer (The Marth FAQ's)

ScareMl

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
Messages
436
Location
Northern California
LMAO I was JUST ABOUT to edit "inb4 clowsui directs me to ancient outdated guides." Yes I have seen that thread. I was looking for someone else's perspective.

and does CJ even have a diddy kong player near him? lol.
quest i don't think you read it closely enough. everyone else who's read that thread has improved in the diddy MU, including me. he gives very specific situations like if you're in x position, then you have y and z options, etc. Give it a reread man. It'll help you, I'm sure
 

C.J.

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 30, 2008
Messages
4,102
Location
Florida
Hey it's my diddy guide! That was fun to make.

Why don't I make more of these....

:phone:
 

C.J.

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 30, 2008
Messages
4,102
Location
Florida
That One is unlikely to happen. I know both Orion and myself have written huge essays on it and NEO made three or four super detailed posts on it in the social. While I can't bring to mind the essays word-for-word atm, the info in all of them is still accurate as far as I can recall.

:phone:
 

C.J.

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
4,102
Location
Florida
Pierce made an if/then guide on MK that's, mostly, still relevant (I think it's titled "If then, a situational guide to fighting MK" but I'm not 100% sure on it).
Clow and Kadaj have each made fairly lengthy posts on the subject as well (check kadaj's ask me anything thread).
 

clowsui

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
10,184
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
the post in Kadaj's thread is mostly accurate. doesn't include info about fullhops vs Oli but those are a little difficult to cover
 

NH Cody

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 17, 2010
Messages
2,638
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Kakariko Village, NH
Is fthrow fthrow usmash guaranteed on MK? or only situationally guaranteed when fthrow is fresh or something?

or how about GR nair on DK, GR fair on snake, GR uair on kirby, or fthrow tipper fsmash on Snake at 0%? is there a thread for this stuff that I'm missing..?
 

C.J.

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
4,102
Location
Florida
Is fthrow fthrow usmash guaranteed on MK? or only situationally guaranteed when fthrow is fresh or something?

or how about GR nair on DK, GR fair on snake, GR uair on kirby, or fthrow tipper fsmash on Snake at 0%? is there a thread for this stuff that I'm missing..?
Yes
not sure offhand, I'll go check though
yes
I'll check
yes after a 1-2 frame stutterstep but fthrow x2 to tipper fsmash, fthrow/fthrow x2 to dair and fthrow x3 to DB are better options

:phone:

Editing is too annoying on my phone so double playing. lo siento
GR uair seems to be legit on Kirby but I got it inconsistently so the time frame is pretty tight, potentially need to buffer.
I could only get Nair on dk once. I'm inclined to believe that that One doesn't work but I'll test more later.


There's a list of most of this stuff in the social thread and probably various other threads as well not to mention a few aib blogs I don't remember offhand.

:phone:
 

NH Cody

Smash Champion
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dang lmao. I thought the kirby gr was something I made up and would make you guys laugh at me. good to know it's legit xD

and I will be doing that stuff on snake, kthx
 

Ayce God

RIP Nova 9
Joined
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how do you approach a pit player who goes to one end of the map and spam arrows till u approach?

also how do u keep pit players from rolling so much.? I try applying pressure and cover his rolling options but he always takes one stock from me when he shouldn't be able to take any.

:phone:
 

1PokeMastr

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 10, 2009
Messages
2,251
What Zano said is true, just PS the arrows and walk up to him, if he rolls, you can Dancing Blade on reaction to punish. But space your self at a distance where he can't hit you with Fsmash/ Dsmash/ Dash Grab, etc.
 

ぱみゅ

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For some reason, when people say "just PS arrows" I kinda remember A2ZOMG saying "just PS GnW's Smashes".
People can charge it to mix up their timings, so (even though arrows aren't as much of an issue as GnW's smashes) "just PS" is kinda vague and a bad advise per se. IMO.
Arrows aren't hard to avoid though, you can PS them when Pit shoots from a long distance (easy to react to), and at mid range mix up dodges or even make them clash with Fair to keep advancing...
That or I am just bad and someone will refute everything in this post with sarcasm included.
 

clowsui

Smash Legend
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you can PS the arrows on reaction. not to mention Pit cannot follow up on the arrow except with another arrow if you're at the correct ranges
 

Keys1281

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 9, 2008
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How does MikeHAZE b-reverse DB so well? I can b-reverse (if that's even the proper term...the momentum-changing turnaround b) falco's lasers, SB, even DS but it's not that helpful.

And when is B-reversed dancing blade good to use? I see Mike do it offstage and after either ledgehopping or ledgejumping.
 

Keys1281

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
207
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But do you input it the same way as you B reverse other moves? Foward, away and then immediately forward again?
 

Jeos

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 3, 2009
Messages
224
for a B-reverse DB (when you turn around) you can simply do forward, then press backwards.

for a wavebounced DB (when you change your momentum without turning around) you keep presing forward, do the DB to your backward, then press forward again.

it's somewhat easy but quite hard to master so, practice it a lot if you don't want to screw it
 

Illuvial

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I will most definently be practicing that as much as possible!!!

Another question, is wavebouncing as important with Marth as some make it out to be? And if so, is wavebouncing with the B-Stick a viable option? Only reason I asked part 2 is because I feel it is a bit to difficult to wavebounce without the Specials on the B-Stick, but if the skill IS important I would most definently learn the hard way eventually for convinience sake.
 

C.J.

Smash Master
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It's important for having optimal control of your mobility. learn to do it normally, you definitely want to keep your cstick default

:phone:
 

Shaya

   「chase you」 
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Spacing is good and all, but spacing is a part of everything we do as Marth, To the point that I don't think it should be classified as the 'technique' as much as the implied mindset/movement that goes into everything you do as a Marth player. Even our close range confrontations are spaced to out do their grab and out of shield options and getting things due to that pressure (don't tell me players who use Marth's dash don't fully take into consideration the lengths/etc he needs to start / time those actions [and out of dash options exist !]).

With always considering spacing, some of the prime things Marth players need are
Timing - Buffering shield drop turn around grabs, buffering dashes out of aerial landings to get better follow ups / apply pressure "as fast as it can get", knowing when to aerial and when to jump/etc and how you walk and talk and etc. Dash to shield is 17 frames, even if holding shield while in neutral will auto-do it for you.

Pressure - always think about the next two actions your opponent will make. If you don't know the match up this is hard but it's the bare minimum. Against some characters (i.e. Toon Link) you honestly need to think of their next three steps. Better/high level players delve further. A really good understanding of your options, your hurtboxes, your hitboxes as well as fluency in movement.
If you don't know a MU (as well as them) against a competent player who does most struggle to apply pressure and lose; you don't understand their options nor how yours work against them, you'll often fall back to a "safe" idea (in my case spacing neutral airs) and against players considerably better against you this stuff fails too. Without pressure you're likely to have gotten yourself gimped and it likely started out of a power shielded dumb forward air.

Mixing Up - Marth has a lot of good options and whilst some are godly (Neutral air), you need to be more well rounded in application. Marth's best options will often lose to other character's best options in common situations (even in a broad sense as simple as getting power shielded). If you were spacing better things may have worked out though, right? But it's not always possible, and when it is - you generally are in god mode and who gives a **** about them gangnam style. But definitely not always possible, better players manage their movements in a more precise manner, hence to keep up with them you need to do so too, even then it won't always work out so you need to MIX UP.
Tangent aside, Marth's best option may not beat the other character's best option in the situation. However, another option Marth has is likely to cover some things/save your life.
e.g. If you're perfect spacing pro, Meta Knight won't shuttle loop you to death as whenever he does it your sword will swing and hit him whilst whiffing you. God mode. You're the Mr ShaynairneomiiikooHAZE. BUT SUDDENLY, you're back in reality and air dodging is stupid. MK's know that you're likely to air dodge or somehow try to punish them (actually, they don't), so generally they wait for the air dodge giving you time for... FOOTSTOOLING and actually hitting them with aerials, my gosh you caught them shocked! A FOOTSTOOL DOWN AIR!? Next time though, this MK DOES IT AGAIN AND YOU- wait reality, they're gonna just shuttle loop early next time and **** you if you try that **** again. Get where I'm going?

Practising mixing up is good in friendlies / during training with someone around your skill level (high level can work but most are illiterate, amirite? :troll:; this is because they tend to intrinsically react to your **** as you do it and punish your mix ups anyway) and tell them things they're missing out on doing CONSTANTLY, and try to get the same in return.

All these things kinda gel together and overlap a little. There's likely more to it as well. But when I think of times where I lost to people it always comes down to those three things in my mind (or sometimes flatly "I was terrible at spacing" [i.e. I was bad at life]). Against the high level players you lose in all 3 facets and they also come with a super special ability (like 10 frame reaction speed or using Ice Climbers). Some players actually are as good at some facets as high level players but generally do worse in the others. Really good Falco players could be tippy top technical and be a gliding smooth mother ****er and not know how to mix up and do considerably well.
 

infiniteV115

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 14, 2010
Messages
6,445
Location
In the rain.
Just making sure
Shield breaker (like almost all of Marth's attacks) has a tipper hitbox which deals more damage and knockback, right?

Edit: ie, a tipper hitbox at the maximum range of the move that deals more damage and knockback than the hitboxes at the non-maximum range of the move, correct?
 

clowsui

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
10,184
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Yes

Also, shieldbreaker is one of two Marth moves to have a "super tipper" - Nair at a certain frame kills earlier (like I'm talking 10-15% earlier, has greater KB value + slightly different trajectory). The super tipper of SB depends not on timing but on spacing; has greater KB value but same trajectory
 

Ayce God

RIP Nova 9
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when you're hit with a banana and fall and another banana is thrown at you in that moment what are your options to avoid being fsmashed.

if a banana is thrown at the spot your about to land at and u have no second jump what are your options?

and if your grounded and a banana is thrown is it possible to catch the banana with jab? or is it better to shield first then jump and catch it.

:phone:
 
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