Ask a quick question, get a quick answer (The Marth FAQ's)

[C.J.]

Oh god, okay.

Could somebody explain his chaingrab? Which throws chain, who does it work on, are there any frames to buffer, should you buffer anything, how many throws can you get in, what's a good follow-up after the last grab, etc.

All of these assume @ 0 percent. If you hit DB1 to grab at 0% (or any other way of dealing small amounts of damage, <=5%), that means the grab starts at ~4% which means you only get one fthrow/one less throw for the CGs

Marth has Fthrow-> fsmash on the entire cast other than Lucario (stupid floaty-ness). Marth has fthrowx2-> fsmash on almost the entire cast
Marth has fthrowx2->dthrowx3->tipper fsmash on Falco
Marth has fthrowx2->dthrowx5->tipper fsmash on Fox
Marth has fthrowx2->dthrowx2 (might be more, I can only ever get it to 2 before Shine comes out)->tipper fsmash on Wolf
Marth has dthrowx5->tipper fsmash on Fox/Falco
Marth has fthrowx2-> tipper dair on MOST of the cast actually. It's a guaranteed death on Falco/Fox (with an easy read)/Wolf though as long as you stay aware/they don't SDI onto the stage.
Marth has fthrow->dair on the ENTIRE cast (I'm able to do it, albeit somewhat inconsistently on the entire cast, even when someone is buffering an aerial/AD/jump/etc)
Marth has fthrowx3-> tipper fsmash and usmash and dair on DDD
Marth has fthrowx2->usmash on MK
Marth has fthrowx2-> tipper fsmash on Snake
Marth has fthrowx3-> DB
Marth has fthrowxY-> DB (Where Y is the number of guaranteed regrabs minus one for that character- varies by character weight)
On characters Marth has fthrowx2->stuff, he has- almost w/o exception- dthrow->fthrow->stuff (useful if you grab someone facing towards the middle of the stage and want to dair them/fsmash/DB them off of the stage)
Marth has fthrowxY-> all aerials
There's all of his GRs of course.
If you're able to consistently get it, FF uair-> usmash/nair/utilt/etc is guaranteed at low %, so you can fthrow->uair->stuff on a lot of characters
Ending at 13%, you can dthrow->fsmash Fox and Falco. That's important because that's the % that fresh tipper fair and DS does (so if you DS out of Falco's CG, you still get dthrow->fsmash)

....That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

As a start, try on people you play
2) 0% fthrow to fthrow to fthrow until it stops working

Only a valid statement if you're opponent knows to hold up. If they hold away, towards, or down then they don't alter their trajectory enough, and there's still enough hitstun to easily guarantee the regrabs. Likewise, with various stuttersteps, fthrow->fsmash is guaranteed on much of the cast until VERY high %s unless they DI properly (you can fthrow->fsmash DK until like 60something% w/ no or bad DI)

Are you supposed to dash between grabs?

Yes- if you don't you'll never hit the regrab

Against most characters, you can Fthrow to tipper Fsmash at 0% though against some like Snake and another Marth you'll have to shutter step the Fsmash. If you want to tipper Fsmash against MK (who you can do Fthrow x2 on) you'll have to wait a tiny moment before Fsmashing instead of buffering it.

Stutterstep*

Also, for those characters you have to wait before inputting the fsmash (MK, Boozer, etc), you can also stutterstep backwards to receive the same result.

Handy, thanks. Is there a way to buffet the dash our something? I feel like I always end up walking when I try to dash for the chaingrab.

Last 10 frames of the throw animation is when you can start buffering.

If you only buffer a walk it's most likely that you just aren't smashing the control stick hard enough. Just smash the control stick hard at the time I said above. It just comes with practice and should be easy to do once you have learnt how to buffer dashes.
If you still can't buffer the dash, are you sure that your control stick is in perfect shape? It could also be that your control stick is loose.

Nope- it's about timing. If you input the dash input in the buffer window frames 1-5, it'll come out as a walk. Frames 6-10 buffer a dash. It's why you commonly will hear people say to double tap the analog during the buffer window to guarantee the dash. There's no way to double tap the input twice within the first 5 frames. As a result, you may put the first input in the first five frames, but the second input will be in the latter 5 frames.

Correction smashkng: fthrow->fthrow->dair works on wolf. I tested it for cj last night.

You da bess =)



Someone bookmark this post, I hate writing out all the CG/fthrow options.

 

[clowsui]

cj you can't chain smashes in a row lmao

 

[C.J.]

I... Huh, I don't know why I said dsmash. Not used to being sick johns. Whatever, I'll fix it when I get home.

Also you definitely can

 

[1PokeMastr]

Around 0-5% on most characters. Marth has F-Throw -> Buffer Dash Sh Nair -> FF > Sh Uair.
Although you can Di the Nair. It's a pretty nice 30% when they don't.

Also I made this a while back ( These damages are true and they can do nothing, Zss/ Marth and Wolf can not Kick Flip/ Dolphin Slash/ Shine out of it. Metaknight can not air dodge to avoid this )

[collapse=Voila]
Marth Sweet Spot Fast Fall Uair -> Usmash/ Tip Fsmash/ Non Tip Fsmash/ Nair/ Uair again/ U-Tilt/ Fair. Max Damages it will work at when Uair is fresh.

Mario - 17%.
Dk - 19%.
Link - 18%.
Samus - 18%.
Zss - 14%.
Kirby - 14%.
Fox - 14%.
Pikachu - 14%.
Marth - 15%.
GaW - 13%.
Luigi - 17%.
Diddy - 16%.
Zelda - 15%.
Shiek - 15%.
Pit - 16%.
Metaknight - 14%.
Falco - 14%.
Squirtle - 13%.
Ivysaur - 17%.
Charizard - 18%.
Ike - 18%.
Snake - 19%.
Peach - 15%.
Yoshi - 18%.
Ganondorf -18%.
Ice Climbers - 16%.
King DeDeDe - 19%.
Wolf - 17%.
Lucario - 17%.
Ness - 16%.
Sonic - 16%.
Bowser - 20%.
Wario - 18%.
Toon Link - 16%.
Rob - 18%.
Olimar - 14%.
Captain Falcon -18%.
Jigglypuff - 12%.
Lucas - 16%.
[/collapse]

 

[C.J.]

Oh hey, more numbers to memorize!

 

[ぱみゅ]

I thought every Marth already knew that Uair into stuff at low percentages are true combos. It is good to know the exact max munbers, though...

 

[1PokeMastr]

Oh hey, more numbers to memorize!

I haven't got around to completing it yet.
But I plan on doing all the stale Uair max damages too.

I also have a giant table with Marth's approximate kill damages on everyone.
With all of his moves.
And with the best Di+ SDi + Momentum cancelling I could possibly do.

 

[C.J.]

I thought every Marth already knew that Uair into stuff at low percentages are true combos. It is good to know the exact max munbers, though...

We do, but it's just the exact %s. I always estimated them (although I always guess DDD/Snake higher and Lucario lower) but never knew for sure.

I haven't got around to completing it yet.
But I plan on doing all the stale Uair max damages too.

I also have a giant table with Marth's approximate kill damages on everyone.
With all of his moves.
And with the best Di+ SDi + Momentum cancelling I could possibly do.

Upload/link?

 

[ぱみゅ]

I haven't got around to completing it yet.
But I plan on doing all the stale Uair max damages too.

I also have a giant table with Marth's approximate kill damages on everyone.
With all of his moves.
And with the best Di+ SDi + Momentum cancelling I could possibly do.

Now THAT is something different.
It would be interesting to know, so I stop stalling Usmash/Utilt out of a Grab Rrelease if they are not gonna kill.

 

[C.J.]

Usmash doesn't kill ever anyway- it's great for damage racking though.

Utilt is so hard to find kill % for. It can send the opponent almost in any direction. I've seen utilt kill straight vertically, into both corners, *near* straight horizontally, etc all with no DI from the same point on stage, all non-tippered. Then it's different for tipped, then it's different if you hit with the hitbox behind Marth.

That move is silly but I love it.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Well.. you see. I did this before I had a laptop.
So I did everything by hand.
But give me time to go through it again and tweak it a bit ( I think my numbers are a bit off ) and I'll gladly type it all up. ( It took me 39 sheets of paper ).

 

[C.J.]

welp, that's a thing lol

The joys of Excel

 

[Kel]

What is it about the MU that makes Marth Vs Falco even? I talked with Larry back at Apex about the MU and he told me that the MU is only even because of the CG to spike Marth has on Falco. I didn't land a single grab when I played Sugo last week at Retribution and I was wondering what I can do to learn this MU. I watched the Leon videos, but he doesn't seem to do anything out of the ordinary.

Against Shugo I felt particularly pressured by his laser spacing that forced me to shield to where he could run up and grab me. What can I do to prevent this yet also not take damage from phantasm/ lasers?

 

[NH Cody]

You have to mix up what you do after you shield the lasers and punish his approach

so if you anticipate a dashgrab after a laser then shield > spotdodge or roll or something

...Falco is easy in any situation other than long range...

 

[Shaya]

Most falco's have a rhythm. You need to power shield lasers. Most Falco's aren't Larry-levelled @ moving in between lasers for pressure.

Larry IIRC thinks the MU is in Marth's favour because of that cg to spike + his gimping potential.

Grabs are natural and make more and more sense about where and when the more comfortable you are with moving efficiently in between lasers + the match up in the general.

There are distinct defensive and offensive patterns in all bar Larry-movementesque Falco play and Marth has comfortable zoning [inward] tools for defensive and punishing/trapping tools for offensive.

(What I mean by larry is buffering dashing/jumping/shdl lasers in a sweeping wave dashing speed movement of godliness which masks all defensive/offensive telegraphy and suddenly DASH ATTACK)

 

[Kel]

I hate how that is always the answer I hear when I ask for Falco advice. Everyone always says "it's easy, unless you are fighting Larry." The problem is that I play a Falco on Larry's level, so it's not just "get near him and be Marth." Shugo has tons of Marth experience now after playing Darc so much, in addition to his stellar tech skill and general knowledge so the MU is very difficult for me. Shugo can CG Marth 0-50 + mix up, so the whole "you don't have to worry about the CG unless you are fighting larry" argument doesn't work in my case. I need a break down of what exactly is supposed to give Marth the advantage. It seems that laser use and over B zoning for Falco is much easier than Marth Fair zoning in the MU.

Shaya, I spoke with larry about the MU at Apex. His opinion could have changed since then, but he made it seem that the 0-death was the reason Marth broke even with Falco. This same logic leads me to believe that if Marth cannot get a grab, the MU is in Falco's favor (according to the best Falco). I could not seem to get a grab on Shugo the entire match, and when I watch recent Mike Vs larry videos it also seems that Mike doesn't get the 0-death (although he is able to grab Falco and rack percent at low percents).

I would just really appreciate an actual breakdown of how the match should flow because Shugo's spacing with lasers and over B is top tier and is very difficult for me to break.

 

[clowsui]

Exactly what Kel said. I have been complaining to Larry lately about Marth vs Falco being in Falco's favor because of how gay Shugo's play is vs Marth. How is Marth supposed to deal with an apparently patternless Falco?

 

[Esca]

Shaya let's blow down *****

 

[Shaya]

The tighter my reactions are the better you play the match up when you know it. I don't think many Marth's play the MU as a flow chart and I see less so "strategies" and more so "being comfortable" as how I've talked to Larry and Mike about the MU in the past. I for example got prone to full hop fairing falco side b on reaction, and long range lasers aren't excessively scary EVEN while I play against Larry. It's Falco's close range amazing options/mixups + good spacing on his part that gets past Marth's general 'hit once and win' / lolsword. Falco has a gazillion 50/50 close range situations (its more like 33/33/33 [yep RPS]) and how you deal with them is really really 80% reactionary.

Although I didn't get to play Shugo, I did share a bed with him. So that epic never played together team spacing may make me misremember a conversation we had, where I think he said he thinks Falco wins and I was like "its probably even... but then we get really dumb crap that one shots Falco [and its more than just fthrow dair]" I don't think there was any resolution but meh.

Fair isn't for zoning, it's for punishing and aggressive pressure. Yeah, fair is good at zoning him when he can't ftilt you (so that 7 frame range window) close, but otherwise it's fodder for 9 frame half the length of FD hitboxes of death.

I was getting out-grabbed at low percent by my aussie resident Falco for a long time, but post-states (and Larry, seriously he's my hero) had me handle the close range shenanigans, especially the low percent "he always SPOT DODGES MY GRAB THEN GRABS ME " that seems to happen when you're shaky / out matched / not experienced.

In a similar way that Marth has to play against Toon Link though, is you need to "try" think the next 3 steps. The good part is that most of those steps are binary, it's just you need to consider that many ahead with your current movements in the ground/air. I've gotten through good Falco laser walls and side b's just by thinking and air dodging at the right time... because I "feel" the timing (as in they're trying to side b you jumping / landing for the tech chase) and just being ready to shield and buffering a turn around grab will nab you things in tight situations. Falco dances around you precariously close range and that's where he's truly truly dangerous for Marth. The camp is just meagre seconds and usually at most 2-3% before the next potential hit that could be either of our stocks.

 

[NH Cody]

Kel, it's not really a constructive mindset to think that you "can't beat a high level player of a character" just because he/she has had some MU practice vs your character and that you can't win an MU unless people explain it to you. One day you come to Marth boards asking "guyz teach me how2beat l00cas idk how" and then a week later you ask "guyz teach me how2beat ICs idk how" and then a week later you say "guyz teach me how2beat flaco idk how" ....... it's not that hard to figure out (ESPECIALLY these MUs)....you CAN play all MUs essentially the same way by just reading your opponent and punishing.

and keep in mind that when we try and generalize how to approach MUs it's stuff that would work MOST of the time. but everyone has different weaknesses so something like dtilt might be good vs DEHF but bad vs Shugo. What I said does not presuppose anything that you were complaining about so idk what the problem was. I never said "It's easy vs most Falcos but not easy vs Larry"...I said "it's easy vs [ALL FALCOS] in all situations other than long range," which is true. What do you do at long range? Anticipate his side-B's or dashgrabs after he lasers and punish accordingly. The lasers limit your punish options but don't make it so that he can throw out attacks without any fear of punishment. If it's not working then you're just not predicting right. Reactions are always important as Shaya was saying.

 

[Kel]

That's why I need the basics. I'm playing catch up for 4 years now and I need to make sure there is nothing I missed.

Whenever I ask "zomg halp I need to beat lucas," I DO. I beat Pink Fresh at Retribution. When I asked for help against Snake I beat Infern and my local Snakes handily. When I ask for Falco and IC help it's because I lost to them and I want to make sure there is nothing I am missing. It's now my goal to beat IC and Falcos. I'm taking this one MU at a time.

One benefit the Marth boards have over others is that the Marth players are typically very thorough and very interested in helping other players improve. CJ's basic breakdowns have increased my game incredibly all because he went back to basics (that I missed from playing MK for over 3 years). I have a lot of wins that I normally would not have gotten if I hadn't had that break down from CJ. I don't have a defeatist mindset that just because Shugo has Darc practice that the MU is unwinnable. That's the whole point of asking these questions. I was just pointing out that Shugo has a good idea of how the MU is supposed to work while I have no basic knowledge, which makes playing him with Marth that much more difficult.

I just wanna learn how to play Marth. Is that so bad?

 

[Ayce God]

it's 2012, why is everyone still doing the "oh I don't know a mu so I look at mike haze and even he struggles." he's not the only marth and def not the best at every mu. leon destroyed Larry's falco at sktar, why not check out some of the things he did? IMO the falco mu is just like the marth ditto, who ever gets the momentum pretty much wins.

just be aggressive (which is not your play style ) but on falco you gotta pressure him into playing your game. make one or two early reads get the momentum and keep it. try to get the first kill to, it's pretty hard for falco to catch up bc those three kill moves are easy to avoid.

not tryna be a negative nancy but even if you learned the mu better I still don't think it would put you on even ground with shugo bc IMO he's just a much better player than you are atm.

 

[clowsui]

I don't claim to represent Kel's response or anything, I'm just interested in this advice too.

The tighter my reactions are the better you play the match up when you know it. I don't think many Marth's play the MU as a flow chart and I see less so "strategies" and more so "being comfortable" as how I've talked to Larry and Mike about the MU in the past. I for example got prone to full hop fairing falco side b on reaction, and long range lasers aren't excessively scary EVEN while I play against Larry. It's Falco's close range amazing options/mixups + good spacing on his part that gets past Marth's general 'hit once and win' / lolsword. Falco has a gazillion 50/50 close range situations (its more like 33/33/33 [yep RPS]) and how you deal with them is really really 80% reactionary.

OK so WHAT are those common scenarios and WHICH options are rock, paper and scissors? Like once we shut down his long range game and enter mid/close range stuff what should we be looking for etc?

Fair isn't for zoning, it's for punishing and aggressive pressure. Yeah, fair is good at zoning him when he can't ftilt you (so that 7 frame range window) close, but otherwise it's fodder for 9 frame half the length of FD hitboxes of death.

There we go. This is helpful. I'm guessing ****** phantasm + laser from long range just depends on me not overcommitting + staying patient...

I was getting out-grabbed at low percent by my aussie resident Falco for a long time, but post-states (and Larry, seriously he's my hero) had me handle the close range shenanigans, especially the low percent "he always SPOT DODGES MY GRAB THEN GRABS ME " that seems to happen when you're shaky / out matched / not experienced.

I'm decent at avoiding grab it's just no Falcos but Larry + Shugo + Kismet + maybe a few more know exactly how to mixup Marth from oki, it's extremely gay.

In a similar way that Marth has to play against Toon Link though, is you need to "try" think the next 3 steps. The good part is that most of those steps are binary, it's just you need to consider that many ahead with your current movements in the ground/air. I've gotten through good Falco laser walls and side b's just by thinking and air dodging at the right time... because I "feel" the timing (as in they're trying to side b you jumping / landing for the tech chase) and just being ready to shield and buffering a turn around grab will nab you things in tight situations. Falco dances around you precariously close range and that's where he's truly truly dangerous for Marth. The camp is just meagre seconds and usually at most 2-3% before the next potential hit that could be either of our stocks.

What you are describing is long range scenario and something that is relatively easy to deal with provided you're not jumpy + have a handle on Marth's movement. I have no problem punishing that (or at least, knowing what I'm doing wrong). It's just when you enter mid range from neutral + close range, like you said...at which point, I refer to my first paragraph. Also this doesn't really do anything to convince me that it is not in Falco's favor, as I seem to have to predict at all times and there is no real active way to stop them from doing it.

Kel, it's not really a constructive mindset to think that you "can't beat a high level player of a character" just because he/she has had some MU practice vs your character and that you can't win an MU unless people explain it to you. One day you come to Marth boards asking "guyz teach me how2beat l00cas idk how" and then a week later you ask "guyz teach me how2beat ICs idk how" and then a week later you say "guyz teach me how2beat flaco idk how" ....... it's not that hard to figure out (ESPECIALLY these MUs)....you CAN play all MUs essentially the same way by just reading your opponent and punishing.

What in the world is this ****? Like you wonder why people don't actually respect what you have to say and then you diminish their responses to something idiotic and meager. I agree that there are many things you can figure out and that you can just read + punish all opponents (never mind the fact that this is not specific to Marth) but to respond to his inquiries that way is just asinine and not actually helpful.

and keep in mind that when we try and generalize how to approach MUs it's stuff that would work MOST of the time. but everyone has different weaknesses so something like dtilt might be good vs DEHF but bad vs Shugo. What I said does not presuppose anything that you were complaining about so idk what the problem was. I never said "It's easy vs most Falcos but not easy vs Larry"...I said "it's easy vs [ALL FALCOS] in all situations other than long range," which is true. What do you do at long range? Anticipate his side-B's or dashgrabs after he lasers and punish accordingly. The lasers limit your punish options but don't make it so that he can throw out attacks without any fear of punishment. If it's not working then you're just not predicting right. Reactions are always important as Shaya was saying.

While different moves are stronger/weaker against different players you can still tell someone the function of those moves and WHEN they are stronger/weaker so you can use them in the appropriate situations. Also, you did not provide any specific advice other than "mix up". Which options are better, and when? Why are these options better? Etc.

To be honest, Falco is not hard at long range because he doesn't do any real damage at long range provided you know how to move + shield + don't let his chip damage mess with your head.

However, the way you describe things brings issues to light also. "What do you do at long range? Just predict. and punish If you're not getting punishes then predict something else." What in the world? How is that helpful? Falco has complete control over the situation in this case, which describes an advantage in the matchup. Are there ways to actively prevent him from side b'ing? It's a certainty that he will stop if he gets punished enough (assuming he is smart) but are there ways that can more actively prevent him from doing this?

I'd also like to note that Falco cannot dash grab at long range.

it's 2012, why is everyone still doing the "oh I don't know a mu so I look at mike haze and even he struggles." he's not the only marth and def not the best at every mu. leon destroyed Larry's falco at sktar, why not check out some of the things he did? IMO the falco mu is just like the marth ditto, who ever gets the momentum pretty much wins.

just be aggressive (which is not your play style ) but on falco you gotta pressure him into playing your game. make one or two early reads get the momentum and keep it. try to get the first kill to, it's pretty hard for falco to catch up bc those three kill moves are easy to avoid.

not tryna be a negative nancy but even if you learned the mu better I still don't think it would put you on even ground with shugo bc IMO he's just a much better player than you are atm.

First paragraph is not helpful. You missed the point as to why he brought up Mike.

Second paragraph also not helpful. Too general and could work for every matchup.

Third paragraph incredibly pointless. Right now Kel (and I) face a skill gap AND an MU exp gap. If we could remove the MU exp gap, it would make it that much closer.

 

[Zano]

quest/nova, plz stop posting


forever


thnx


no but seriously, don't just write off a paragraph like that which has no actual help in it to attempt to make yourself seem more knowledgeable, it's just annoying.

 

[C.J.]

#shotsfired

 

[NH Cody]

quest/nova, plz stop posting


forever


thnx

Too bad it's a free forum and I can post what I want

no but seriously, don't just write off a paragraph like that which has no actual help in it to attempt to make yourself seem more knowledgeable, it's just annoying.

Actually it was helpful. If you read it I talked about adapting your playstyle/move choices suited to handle the Falco player.

Can yall get real? I don't need to "seem knowledgeable" to any of you or "win your approval" or whatever. Marth is my secondary and I'm still 10x better than all of you. I don't get 65th at locals like you fools. I don't need you people flaming me and critiquing my attempted helpful critiques. I guess I just won't try and help you guys any more, since no one appreciates my time. I'll just meet you in tourney and you can think of fancy words like "zoning" and "stage control" or whatever and I'll be reading you and bodying you.

also as for Clowsui I find it interesting that you never admonish CJ or Shaya for "not being helpful" or for being "irrelevant" when they are half the time.

done

 

[Ayce God]

I don't believe I was speaking to u zano, or you clowsui. although I think what quest posted was silly and what I posted didn't give kel what he wanted we can post whatever we like here no one is asking you to agree with it.

I can't tell you how many times I've come here (other people too) and asked a legit question and someone replys with something completely stupid and NO ONE says a word to them.

zano, you're not even good dude? and yet you ALWAYS have something smart to say to anyone who may not be as well known as you and the others. pretty much any mid to high level player that asks a question here is talking to cj, shaya and MAYBE clowsui. why u even post in the q/a part is beyond me. stop bashing people for saying stuff you don't agree with (especially when there not even talking to u) and spend sometime actually getting good at the game dude.

Too bad it's a free forum and I can post what I want
Actually it was helpful. If you read it I talked about adapting your playstyle/move choices suited to handle the Falco player.

Can yall get real? I don't need to "seem knowledgeable" to any of you or "win your approval" or whatever. Marth is my secondary and I'm still 10x better than all of you. I don't get 65th at locals like you fools. I don't need you people flaming me and critiquing my attempted helpful critiques. I guess I just won't try and help you guys any more, since no one appreciates my time. I'll just meet you in tourney and you can think of fancy words like "zoning" and "stage control" or whatever and I'll be reading you and bodying you.

also as for Clowsui I find it interesting that you never admonish CJ or Shaya for "not being helpful" or for being "irrelevant" when they are half the time.

done

damn haha

 

[C.J.]

Well damn. This isn't a very nice conversation at all

All the flaming and bring mean isn't constructive in the least.
Yes, I admit that I haven't been as helpful as I have been in the past on here, but people text and message me on FB write frequently for help, which I give, and then they go on to do better and specifically thank me. See: Kel, I helped Ramin a bit vs olimar, almost every Marth vs Diddy and DDD, etc. I'll make an attempt to be more helpful on here.

All that being said, Quest, drink a glass of white vinegar and sugar (cooking joke, +10 awesome points to whoever had done it). You don't give bad advice but it's not what they're looking for. You give advice involving player habits, adapting, etc. While it's certainly valid and important, if the fundamentals of the MU aren't there, it's an incredibly step hill to climb. The questions people typically ask here are because they want to learn the technical parts of the matchup.
Additionally, keep in mind you didn't make a good first impression here in attacking me. No, I'm not the best player, yes you're probably better than me. But I'm who many many to players come to for advice and to discuss MUs with. My advice is good and the Marth boards as a whole are fairly close so attacking me wasn't the best decision. I've moved on and don't care, as have most people, but it was something people didn't like. Is it silly, sure. But oh well, just relax and let it roll off your back; it's really not a big deal.

Nova, Zano, PLEASE relax work a glass of write vinegar and sugar add well. lol. If you don't like someone's posts, just ignore them. If someone posts something "stupid"either correct it yourself, nicely and respectfully (I admit that's something I should be better at as well), or wait for someone else to do so. If you don't think someone will, message me, shaya, kadaj, Ramin, whoever and ask them to respond. We all like helping, maybe we missed something.

Clow, watch the rage/frustration lol.

Shaya, Kel does have a point. You do reference situations existing but proceed to not elaborate on what the situations actually are.

Kel, same thing as Clow. Frustration is understandable, but no reason to let it bleed into your posts

Now, nobody respond to this, that will only further arguments in a thread meant to help people. Message me if you want.

 

[Ayce God]

iam calm, it's just ignoring people doesn't get the message across that the **** they say is not cool. some people only respond to the bitter truth that they are just bad and should really mind there on business.

cj, if It would be ok for me to every now and then message u on fb with a question I'd much rather do that than post in this thread.

 

[C.J.]

Everyone is welcome to message me on FB, text me, Skype me, message me on AIM, etc.

I'm always happy to talk to anyone lol.
Facebook is Charles Pratt
Message me for cell #
AIM is nobody0045
Skype is on the Skype thread

 

[clowsui]

also as for Clowsui I find it interesting that you never admonish CJ or Shaya for "not being helpful" or for being "irrelevant" when they are half the time.

done

The difference between what you and Shaya said is that Shaya actually provided semi-concrete advice that I asked him to expound on. You on the other hand gave some broad statements that relate to Kel getting better as a player (and not really get better at the matchup). I've also never seen CJ give bad advice, and if what he has to say is wrong, then he's always made a habit to correct what he said.

Don't be passive aggressive with your words, kid. If you think it's stupid, then say it's stupid. If you think it's hypocritical, say it's hypocritical. But don't try to pretend like you don't have an opinion about it, and then play victim when others call you out. I'd respect you way more for having the wrong idea if you were actually totally honest in your behavior.

@nova

I have nothing against you and I definitely did not mean to sound as harsh as I apparently did, so I'm sorry. However I think if you want to give advice it needs to be way more specific than that. What you did is logically equivalent to what Quest did, and you also seemed to miss the point, which is what bothered me. =(

@Quest
If you're going to make another post asking why I'm being nice to nova and not you, it's because he doesn't make a habit of doing the kind of posts that you do, where you condescend on others AND give bad advice.

@CJ
I'm ceasing to respond to anything wrt this argument after this post.

 

[NH Cody]

Well CJ you sure do try and make yourself seem an innocent lamb, but funnily enough you did post "#shotsfired" and you didn't at all reprimand Zano for what he said until AFTER I set him in his place. If anything that was more encouragement. That sure didn't sound like "I disagree, Zano!" You also do condescend in your critiques and insert random comments like "you lack fundamentals" so it follows that you shouldn't be shocked when people say similar stuff to you.

Only on Marth boards would you see people critiquing other people's critiques like this.

 

[Ayce God]

thanks cj, and I don't have anything against u either clow, u know this.

 

[Kel]

Honestly I wasn't even responding to Quest in my first response. I didn't even know he was replying to me until after I saw his response to my response. I was responding directly to Shaya because I have heard from many different people at different times "get close to Falco and be Marth, except when fighting Larry" It just so happens that Shaya was the most recent to say this to me. I just wanted to see possible angles or opinions people had when they are fighting someone of Larry's caliber. I mean, assuming people aren't going to be good and using all the tools their character has is essentially the same as assuming an IC player won't CG you to death based on tech skill. There are players out there that can use their character to max potential, and I'd like to learn how to fight them.

CJ, calm down man, there's no reason to be super angry here.

 

[ScareMl]

so much hate. let's all go get shawarma and relax =)

 

[Zano]

Well CJ you sure do try and make yourself seem an innocent lamb, but funnily enough you did post "#shotsfired" and you didn't at all reprimand Zano for what he said until AFTER I set him in his place.

 

[Shaya]

Stop being kids everybody, god dammit.
Fair warning.

It's hard to expand on Falco because everything I've learned about it + taken in is the whole 'reaction'/'mindset' problem. When I have lasers shooting at me beyond mid range I used to be like 'ughh', but now I take the 2-3% and the 3-4 seconds and just get through it. The main thing to really note about that whole "step" of the MU is that getting hit by lasers are fine, getting hit by side b's are most definitely not (during that interaction) and most Marth players put themselves in a bad position to avoid lasers only make themselves prone to other >= mid range falco options. A lot of players are too busy paying attention to trying to avoid a laser that they don't go "well unless falco is buffering and its silent lasers" then him going for that dash attack / boost grab after hitting me once is fair game to punish.

The crux of the match up that people find hard to deal with is the next few steps. You enter mid range and now you're like "oh no side b" panicking when you should be taking into consideration not what Falco is about to do, but where he's going to be in X moments. Generally at around this time a really good Falco will be able to frame trap + out gay you in some close range interaction, the primary issue being his transition from mid range to close range is exceptional (fox trots, good walks, dash attack fear, etc), but further on, these are amazing moves, but I still less so focus on the moves and more so where Falco's going to be next.

More so on mid range, once you're comfortable close-ish and you aren't going to get boost grabbed or aren't going to jump (I'd say "badly" but generally you can jump but that automatically stems into hard read) then you abuse what mid range zoning / pressure you have (where one power shield into an ftilt or jab will likely get a hit) and have a gazillion hard read options (dash attack / ftilt for example).

All Falco mains have a game plan / pattern, even Larry. When you're comfortable at being aware of all the things that could happen within the next few moments, you just end up playing Marth at the pace of Falco and work around what they're doing and using what greater things you have (better walk, arcs, better grab range, better pivot grab range, dumb dumb **** ready and honed for punishing side b).

 

[etecoon]

Too bad it's a free forum and I can post what I want
Marth is my secondary and I'm still 10x better than all of you. I don't get 65th at locals like you fools.

NE locals usually have like 10 entrants though

#bestregion

 

[NH Cody]

shhh etecoon that's supposed to be a secret

I am looking forward to our friendlies btw.

 

[Kel]

Fair warning.

BTW I won another tournament yesterday with Marf =)