Ask a quick question, get a quick answer (The Marth FAQ's)

[Pr0phetic]

His boost pivot grab is pretty difficult, and isn't used much. However in Japan its use seems quite major do to the post from nothing. on AiB showing chain grabs.

 

[ViCTORiOUSViC]

what is this "boost pivot grab"? i never heard of it

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=231916

Here's a thread about the Boost Pivot Grab.


@ Rukkiko

Wow man, thanks for bringing up nothing. on AiB. I just read his blogs, he has some crazily sweet info in them. Especially the CGs that Marth has .

 

[ViCTORiOUSViC]

i got one more question..what is the difference between dash grab n pivot grab?

 

[Steel]

During pivot grabs you pivot.

 

[ViCTORiOUSViC]

i know thats the idea but how

 

[gunterrsmash01]

Ok so is the boost dash grab needed to dthrow chaingrab fox/falco/etc?

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Lol Steel XD.

A pivot grab is performed when you dash in one direction and then grab in the opposite direction. So for example, if facing right, and you use Z to grab:

Dash right --> Z+Left.

You need to make sure the grab and direction were timed correctly though, or else you'll do wierd things, such as: rolling, dashing back left (if you were facing right) and dash grabbing, or other stuffz.


@ Ozz. Depends what % and how much your dthrow is diminished, but if you're going for up to around 10 grabs on a falco/fox/shiek/pikachu, then yes you need to do a buffered dash then a boost pivot grab.

 

[gunterrsmash01]

when u said boost pivot, did u mean a normal boost grab. cause a pivot wouldnt be possible

 

[ViCTORiOUSViC]

ooh ok thanks..i dont usually do pivots, or never really bothered to understand the word..but i get it now..i even practiced it
thanks again

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

when u said boost pivot, did u mean a normal boost grab. cause a pivot wouldnt be possible

I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but you do use a pivot grab. You don't run past them though. You run straight towards then, then initiate a dash to the opposite direction, then true pivot back to the forward position while performing a pivot grab.

ooh ok thanks..i dont usually do pivots, or never really bothered to understand the word..but i get it now..i even practiced it
thanks again

K no problem . It's nice to whip one out every now and then, can't hurt you if you're far away, but does have a chance of grabbing if they decide to run at you, so it can only result in something good if used right.

 

[Eon the Wolf]

I haven't seen this answered in the threads I've read (and I wasnt bout to go through 335 pages sooo....), so I'll ask here....
I main wolf.
But recently, after maaany years on n off of playing Roy n dabbling with Marth in Melee, I've recently decided to try & make Marth my second main.
(Not only will the strategies Marth uses to succeed help me get better at Wolf and spacing....he's fun.)
But I have come across a few BUMPS....so to speak.
I've yet to see any post actually say which of marths attacks may be the best to use in conjunction with normal DI to help survive longer.
IE: Wolf should try to use nair horizontally, and dair vertically...
Now, I tend to see Fair n dair used but...I don't know for sure which is best when...
Also, if it's not too much trouble...how do you folks go about beating wolf's reflector & it's invincibility frames/damage combo n his laser (at least, on wifi right now...dont get to play much offline sadly)
Sorry if it seems like I'm asking a lot....just trying to figure out some key stuff for Marth that I think I could benefit from....I'm sure there'll be other questions lol...

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

I haven't seen this answered in the threads I've read (and I wasnt bout to go through 335 pages sooo....), so I'll ask here....
I main wolf.
But recently, after maaany years on n off of playing Roy n dabbling with Marth in Melee, I've recently decided to try & make Marth my second main.
(Not only will the strategies Marth uses to succeed help me get better at Wolf and spacing....he's fun.)
But I have come across a few BUMPS....so to speak.
I've yet to see any post actually say which of marths attacks may be the best to use in conjunction with normal DI to help survive longer.
IE: Wolf should try to use nair horizontally, and dair vertically...
Now, I tend to see Fair n dair used but...I don't know for sure which is best when...
Also, if it's not too much trouble...how do you folks go about beating wolf's reflector & it's invincibility frames/damage combo n his laser (at least, on wifi right now...dont get to play much offline sadly)
Sorry if it seems like I'm asking a lot....just trying to figure out some key stuff for Marth that I think I could benefit from....I'm sure there'll be other questions lol...

Well it's cool that you're picking up Marth.

Well, to my knowledge, the physics of Brawl work in a way so that an aerial in the air will break your momentum. It slows you down during the first frame of the aerial's first hitbox. So, you always want to use the aerial whose hitbox's frame comes out the fastest. So regardless of direction, you always use your fastest aerial. So according to this, you Wolf mains are doing the wrong thing by using dair for vertical momentum and nair for horizontal momentum.

Marth should always use his Fair, as it comes out the fastest. Some use Dair, but they are simply doing it wrong. It makes sense to fast fall to negate some of the vertical knockback's momentum, but you don't need to FF with Dair, as you can FF with any aerial by just pressing down.

Well you could fair through the lasers or use any other sword swipe to cancel the laser out. Or, you can simply run up, while shielding when you need to til you get to Wolf. You can also just jump towards him and airdodge the lasers.

As for beating Wolf's combos, I'm guessing you mean combos that follow up after reflector, like Down B into Dsmash or Fsmash? Well, you can simply try to DI out of it or airdodge, etc, or if there's enough time, you can use Counter (although I'm not sure if this is possible since I don't know the exact frame data). You could probably Dolphin Slash out of the combos though due to its extreme speed.

 

[gunterrsmash01]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but you do use a pivot grab. You don't run past them though. You run straight towards then, then initiate a dash to the opposite direction, then true pivot back to the forward position while performing a pivot grab.

Can you please explain this more? are there any vids? im trying this right now, and cant get it working. i find just normally dthrowing them over and over with dashgrabs works though. i dont see how you have enough time to pivot and stuff.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Can you please explain this more? are there any vids? im trying this right now, and cant get it working. i find just normally dthrowing them over and over with dashgrabs works though. i dont see how you have enough time to pivot and stuff.

Sorry, but I think that's as clear as I can get. I haven't found a video of it though. There's a small chance this might be false, but i doubt it because I've heard it's been done. However, you can probably ask Pierce to clarify. Pierce has used this before on one of my online friends, so he's told me Pierce can do it XD.

If the directions I was talking about confuzzled you, I'll explain it in simpler words. Basically this is what you perform, so I excluded the inputs.

Dash towards opponent, then pivot grab them. When you grab them, you're facing the same direction you were during the dash.


Another thing: again, idk the specifics of when to exactly use the pivot grab compared to a normal dash grab. For example, if dthrow's throw-stun is always the same, and does not increase nor decrease regardless of how much it's diminished or regardless of the opponent's %, then may be you can do 5 normal dash grabs on let's say Falco like you normally do, but the next 3 might need to be pivot grabs because you need the extra range, but may be by then your dthrow is completely diminished, and you can grab him 2 more times (with a total of 10) with normal dash grabs again.

 

[Pr0phetic]

Look at most matches with DeDeDe and Marth, you'll see them do a turnaround grab, that's a pivot grab. All you have to do is dash then grab (whether you use Z or R/L+A is up to you) in the opposite direction.

 

[Eon the Wolf]

Well it's cool that you're picking up Marth.

Well, to my knowledge, the physics of Brawl work in a way so that an aerial in the air will break your momentum. It slows you down during the first frame of the aerial's first hitbox. So, you always want to use the aerial whose hitbox's frame comes out the fastest. So regardless of direction, you always use your fastest aerial. So according to this, you Wolf mains are doing the wrong thing by using dair for vertical momentum and nair for horizontal momentum.

Marth should always use his Fair, as it comes out the fastest. Some use Dair, but they are simply doing it wrong. It makes sense to fast fall to negate some of the vertical knockback's momentum, but you don't need to FF with Dair, as you can FF with any aerial by just pressing down.

Well you could fair through the lasers or use any other sword swipe to cancel the laser out. Or, you can simply run up, while shielding when you need to til you get to Wolf. You can also just jump towards him and airdodge the lasers.

As for beating Wolf's combos, I'm guessing you mean combos that follow up after reflector, like Down B into Dsmash or Fsmash? Well, you can simply try to DI out of it or airdodge, etc, or if there's enough time, you can use Counter (although I'm not sure if this is possible since I don't know the exact frame data). You could probably Dolphin Slash out of the combos though due to its extreme speed.

Well, it may not be all the wolves, but It's that way for me. There's a video I found linked in the stickies, and the guy showed that, with smashes that sent horizontal or vertical, at the same %'s for each arial in both directions, Nair made u survive what none of the others did in horizontal, and dsmash outsurvived nair in vertical....
No, I mean...There's 6 frames of invincibility for Wolf's reflector, and afterwards if you're in range, or even attacking, the damage the reflector does on its own usually cuts through almost anything...Any tips for getting around that? For some reason, the wolf players I've faced tend to avoid using it in Wolf dittos & other star fox characters, but a few REALLY let loose with it against reflector-less characters...
I suspect I won't have this much of a problem in non wifi games, but when it comes to wifi, I can never seem to get the dodge or counter or the tipped attack to hit RIGHT when they come out of a dodge or right before they do that reflector fair/bair combo. Granted, when playing as Wolf, I usually don't seem to have to worry :/....I'm also just trying to figure out the good ways to approach projectile users and star fox users especially, because if they don't shield with every approach (wheither its a feint or otherwise), it's a reflector poppin out x.x. (Plus I could probably benefit from REALLY starting to practice my dtilt n pivot grabs T_T)

 

[C.box]

Can you please explain this more? are there any vids? im trying this right now, and cant get it working. i find just normally dthrowing them over and over with dashgrabs works though. i dont see how you have enough time to pivot and stuff.

To do the cgs you have to grab them from 0 dthrow then buffer the DASH *not the grab* and do a Dash attack cancelled grab instead of a regular dashing grab or any of that pivot grab shenanigans you guys are saying <_<

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Well, it may not be all the wolves, but It's that way for me. There's a video I found linked in the stickies, and the guy showed that, with smashes that sent horizontal or vertical, at the same %'s for each arial in both directions, Nair made u survive what none of the others did in horizontal, and dsmash outsurvived nair in vertical....
No, I mean...There's 6 frames of invincibility for Wolf's reflector, and afterwards if you're in range, or even attacking, the damage the reflector does on its own usually cuts through almost anything...Any tips for getting around that? For some reason, the wolf players I've faced tend to avoid using it in Wolf dittos & other star fox characters, but a few REALLY let loose with it against reflector-less characters...
I suspect I won't have this much of a problem in non wifi games, but when it comes to wifi, I can never seem to get the dodge or counter or the tipped attack to hit RIGHT when they come out of a dodge or right before they do that reflector fair/bair combo. Granted, when playing as Wolf, I usually don't seem to have to worry :/....I'm also just trying to figure out the good ways to approach projectile users and star fox users especially, because if they don't shield with every approach (wheither its a feint or otherwise), it's a reflector poppin out x.x. (Plus I could probably benefit from REALLY starting to practice my dtilt n pivot grabs T_T)

Hmm interesting .

To do the cgs you have to grab them from 0 dthrow then buffer the DASH *not the grab* and do a Dash attack cancelled grab instead of a regular dashing grab or any of that pivot grab shenanigans you guys are saying <_<
__________________

What's a Dash Attack Cancelled Grab? Never heard of it.

 

[Lord Chair]

Well it's cool that you're picking up Marth.

Well, to my knowledge, the physics of Brawl work in a way so that an aerial in the air will break your momentum. It slows you down during the first frame of the aerial's first hitbox. So, you always want to use the aerial whose hitbox's frame comes out the fastest. So regardless of direction, you always use your fastest aerial. So according to this, you Wolf mains are doing the wrong thing by using dair for vertical momentum and nair for horizontal momentum.

WRONG.

Using an aerial gives your characters their air speed back. As in, the capability of the character to move around in the air. This is in effect the first frame of the aerial, no matter how slow it is (so even when the hitbox is not out). As such, characters like Wario will notice the momentum canceling effect better than characters like Ganondorf.

The reason why you should use your fastest aerial is because jumping is also a form of momentum canceling (and it gets you closer to the upper blastzone), and you'd want to jump ASAP.

When DIing vertically, you don't really want to jump. As such, ANY character can use its Dair in order to DI vertically. No matter how slow it is. The only thing you can do to DI vertically is fastfalling, which any aerial can do, DIing sidewards and just flicking your C-stick downwards is the easiest way of doing this.

Wolf's Nair is a bit of an odd issue, but it's been proven to be the best aerial to DI with.

Well you could fair through the lasers or use any other sword swipe to cancel the laser out. Or, you can simply run up, while shielding when you need to til you get to Wolf. You can also just jump towards him and airdodge the lasers.

Lol don't. First of all, lasers have transcendent priority. Marth's Fair doesn't cancel them out.

Airdodging your way towards Wolf is asking for a Bair/fsmash/grab/dsmash/WHATEVER in your face. Don't do it.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

WRONG.

Using an aerial gives your characters their air speed back. As in, the capability of the character to move around in the air. This is in effect the first frame of the aerial, no matter how slow it is (so even when the hitbox is not out). As such, characters like Wario will notice the momentum canceling effect better than characters like Ganondorf.

The reason why you should use your fastest aerial is because jumping is also a form of momentum canceling (and it gets you closer to the upper blastzone), and you'd want to jump ASAP.

When DIing vertically, you don't really want to jump. As such, ANY character can use its Dair in order to DI vertically. No matter how slow it is. The only thing you can do to DI vertically is fastfalling, which any aerial can do, DIing sidewards and just flicking your C-stick downwards is the easiest way of doing this.

Wolf's Nair is a bit of an odd issue, but it's been proven to be the best aerial to DI with.

Hmm ok makes sense I guess.

Lol don't. First of all, lasers have transcendent priority. Marth's Fair doesn't cancel them out.

Airdodging your way towards Wolf is asking for a Bair/fsmash/grab/dsmash/WHATEVER in your face. Don't do it.

Didn't know that.

Then what do you suggest as an approach? I mean, anything you do will always cause a reaction from an opponent, so you could say that for everyone. And you could just not get too close if you're airdodging, so he can't punish you. Only other choice for an approach would be to dash/shield or roll towards him, but again, either of those could be countered with a Bair/fsmash/grab/dsmash etc from Wolf. Could you elaborate?

 

[Lord Chair]

Then what do you suggest as an approach? I mean, anything you do will always cause a reaction from an opponent, so you could say that for everyone. And you could just not get too close if you're airdodging, so he can't punish you. Only other choice for an approach would be to dash/shield or roll towards him, but again, either of those could be countered with a Bair/fsmash/grab/dsmash etc from Wolf. Could you elaborate?

I find the Wolf match-up terribly difficult to be honest. You won't outspace a good Wolf, which makes this MU a pain in the <fill in sensitive spot of your choice>.

I still don't know what to do against Wolf :X just don't airdodge approach, that's all I can say.

Only other choice for an approach would be to dash/shield or roll towards him,

You can also, yknow, Fair?

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

I find the Wolf match-up terribly difficult to be honest. You won't outspace a good Wolf, which makes this MU a pain in the <fill in sensitive spot of your choice>.

I still don't know what to do against Wolf :X just don't airdodge approach, that's all I can say.

Quote:
Only other choice for an approach would be to dash/shield or roll towards him,
You can also, yknow, Fair?

Lol @ "fill in".

Mmk.

Course, I was only thinking about movements though, not attacks .

 

[Eon the Wolf]

Yeah, Ive always kinda thought it was a giant f*ckin pain in the ***, which is funny because it shows just how much potential he has :D....Now if only us Wolfies could get our own M2K or Ally or w/e xD.
Anyway, I'm mainly asking all these questions because TBH; I don't watch videos to learn strats. It just doesnt work for me. I learn an enemy's strats and moves and moves and general things like that by actually playing, and experiencing or preventing them. And since the only Marth I've ever played who didnt just spam Fsmashes was my bro, but he's not a comp Marth so...
IMHO; It's one thing to watch n read up n PLAN a strategy against a character.
It's another entirely to actually have to fight them. Plans can easily be foiled. It's better to rely on instincts earned in maaaany fights against the particular person (or in the case of some,) or particular character.
EDIT: Plus he plays with items (he's a casual player so nothing wrong with that xD)
And generally, he avoids marth against my wolf . Ive had plenty of Wolf v Wolf n Wolf practice, but not that much Marth practice, and even then it can become easily frustrating on a wifi game unless its a green connection x.x

 

[Pr0phetic]

The goal of watching top player sis to not simply to learn a game plan or learn strategies, it's to help your ability to pick up patterns, learn what moves work in what situation, and help with anything else you'd need for your understanding.

 

[Eon the Wolf]

I'm a guy -.-. Are people really too lazy to check a forum profile nowadays? And I know that. That's the textbook definition. It just doesn't work for me. I tend to watch the vids not because I've noticed it helps me (and I really haven't) but because I find it interesting to simply watch pros at work *shrug*

 

[Suntan Luigi]

I got a question: I want to make a thread for discussing aplications for Down-B as an edgeguard. Would this be okay to do?

 

[ZHMT]

I got a question: I want to make a thread for discussing aplications for Down-B as an edgeguard. Would this be okay to do?

You can if you want but I dont see much use of it when you can just fair. Its good vs like..DK tho lol

 

[Player-3]

ledgedrop counter too good

its good agaisnt those mks who like to nado back onstage because its broken and all that

or you can just fsmash them

 

[Pr0phetic]

Who said anything about Eon being a girl btw? I must've missed that, unless you meant my error where "player sis" is supposed to be "players is".

 

[SKy Angel]

ledgedrop counter too good

its good agaisnt those mks who like to nado back onstage because its broken and all that

or you can just fsmash them

I agree with you on that, I must admit I've been doing that lately with only MK, And Pit mostly, but it's worth to finish them off.

 

[Thunder Of Zeus]

I agree with you on that, I must admit I've been doing that lately with only MK, And Pit mostly, but it's worth to finish them off.

In this one's signature:

Are those the english translations of Marth's Japanese taunts?

 

[ZHMT]

In this one's signature:

Are those the english translations of Marth's Japanese taunts?

Yeah they are.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Lol go ahead and make a thread about counter if you want.


Yeah ledgedrop counter = win.

Don't forget it's also awsome for those Ike's who aether too high, so you can counter it ON stage. But even if it's too low, you can just ledgedrop it XD.

Counter's easier than Fair in a lot of ways. For example, for those recovery moves that hit in front and a little behind (like Marth, Mario, or DK, others), you can jump behind them, counter when they'll use the recovery move, and you'll instantly stage spike them if you positioned it and timed it right. Fair is possible too, but harder. And it's not as fun IMO XD.

 

[Suntan Luigi]

I made said thread, and it got locked >.<

But I guess there's not much to discuss about this move, it's only useful in certain situations. Also @ Shaya, this is random american guy, not Cobalt.

 

[Shaya]

Cobalt will tell you to main MK =)

 

[Suntan Luigi]

I was messing around with Marf the other day, and I noticed a weird property of his Up-B: if you press the control stick opposite to the direction you are facing during the first few frames or so of the attack (im not sure on this it's an estimate) you will DS in a perfectly vertical line and gain a few inches or so of height. Has this been discovered already? (im assuming it has) And does anyone think it could be useful in some way?

Also, everyone should main MetaKnight. :3 I just choose not to. I think Cobalt should main Ganondorf.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

I was messing around with Marf the other day, and I noticed a weird property of his Up-B: if you press the control stick opposite to the direction you are facing during the first few frames or so of the attack (im not sure on this it's an estimate) you will DS in a perfectly vertical line and gain a few inches or so of height. Has this been discovered already? (im assuming it has) And does anyone think it could be useful in some way?

Also, everyone should main MetaKnight. :3 I just choose not to. I think Cobalt should main Ganondorf.

No it's actually the same height, it just might not seem that way... If you hold up though (considering you're within horizontal reach of the ledge), i'm pretty sure you get a little more height from continuing the momentum from the DS rather than holding down or such.


Hmm about your thread, i think it should not have needed a lock, as there are other threads that are made about one of Marth's moves. However, I guess Steel locked it because there was nothing "new" cus you were discussing it rather than making a guide and having discussion after that... oh well XD.

 

[Eon the Wolf]

Who said anything about Eon being a girl btw? I must've missed that, unless you meant my error where "player sis" is supposed to be "players is".

Yeah, I think it was your typo xD. Sorry x.x

 

[Zero Hour]

hey guys, i had my second tourney today and i've noticed a pattern already... I SUCK on the ledge... does anyone have any suggestions, especially for sheik, once she picked up on the N-air i was out of ideas.-