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[dandan]

isn't blue yoshi pretty decent and he plays without a sh (i have not played him though )

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

dk without z cancelling is easy

 

[Surri-Sama]

Easier maybe.

I dont think it'll go well either way. I'm not arguing for either side of the "technical vs competitive" debate, just saying i think you'll be a far more competitive player with SH xD (seems obvious enough)

And those who cant SH wish they could. Just like people on keys want more directions!

 

[Near²]

isn't blue yoshi pretty decent and he plays without a sh (i have not played him though )

yoshi doesn't require short hopping because of the djc ability

 

[dandan]

yoshi doesn't require short hopping because of the djc ability

blue yoshi is a player who actually uses jigs.

 

[Near²]

oh i read that wrong, i thought you were talking about the actual character yoshi.

NVM

 

[Korrupshen]

sorry to derail this johnny chain.

But how are people saying that smash64 is more difficult than melee?

I am fairly competent in smash64, but melee is way too technical for me.

Melee is WAY harder hands down, once you stop playing u get rusty as bike chains. A few days ago I pop in my melee......I tried to wavedash a couple of times and I was like WTF I can't even do this **** no more , so I turned off the game(maybe I was feeling kind of slow that day, who knows). However, this is coming from a person who has played melee "EVERY SINGLE DAY OF MY SUMMER + more" for technical practice since I wanted to start playing melee competitively. I went to my first tournament this summer and got ***** by Eggm. I was dumb enough to even pick a jigglypuff for a fox matchup, knowing that fox is HARD for jigglypuff. I know all advanced techniques with the exception of Doc's up+b cancel and link/young link's super jump, and samus's SHFFM. I wanted to take break from melee, because maybe I thought I'll develop a new playing style since my old style was basically learned from videos of professionals playing. I would usually try to imitate a mix of styles which was kinda hard keeping it consistent, especially if I was to stop playing for a 3 hours or so.

 

[Blade689]

Melee Vs Smash64......... I have mixed feelings about the topic....... personally I will argue for the n64 because that is my view...... if you have a rebuttle..... whop-de-do..... but I don't really care.

So let me start in a place of fact, not IMOs:

Game theory would say that a video game's purpose is to reduce the thoughts of a task..... such as pressing the right button, or knowing how to move properly to be considered a functionally sound game. The more tasks you have to accomplish in a game, the less strategy you apply. The possible moves that can accomplish must be relieved to the player for this to hold true, and the brain power to get to this point is forefiet and can't be used as an example of strategy because it is considered what you need to do to win. That until the barrier of maximum output inside the game is accomplished, strategy falls to the way side, and is not incorporated in the technical skill that the player is learning.

With this in mind I have to say that Melee has too high of a skill requirement to be considered a functional game outside of their own community. That if you gave someone a controller and told to imitate a professional Melee player they would be unable to even after being told the proper combination. This is the apparent over-complication that is build into melee that reduces the possible amount of players, and creates huge skill gaps in the process of weeding out potential gamers.
^now..... is this the end all be all...... no.... any person who tries enough can accomplish to learn the required tasks/buttons to play melee...... but so what? Now let me talk about 64 =).

On the topic of Smash Bros 64, it is much less complex then Melee. No wave dashing. No Air Dodging. No complete DI control. In fact the game can be successfully played with Z,A,B and the analog stick if need be. There are constants to the game because of its simplicity that allows for a similar experiences even if its your first time playing. In 64, only the most advanced techniques require training, while most moves/tactics/training can take place within a given match, and that people active learn to play better as they fight stronger people. I would say that the buttons play less and less of a factor as you play 64, and that strategy dominates the environment because move sets/combos can be copied so easily.

In the end, I say that the highest level of skill for both games can't be imitate without practice, but the barrier of technique that melee requires is the exact same logic behind the rich kid winning all the MtG games because he has all the cards, that there was no strategy involved in truely conquering the opponent, and that it was a kin to masturbating in public. Sure, you can kill someone in the 64 over and over again...... but they learn because of it...... every loss makes them that much stronger of sorts........ idk....... im confusing my point now and give up.

 

[ballin4life]

Smash 64 still takes crazy amounts of tech skill for some characters and moves. Especially for fox, ness, yoshi.

 

[Blade689]

That's true, but to have standard movement such as wave dashing hidden from the players until their shown seems like a version of negligence towards the community..... aka... no love until you have the skills..... where as smash is more like you got your butt kicked enough, trained a little, you butt kicked more, trained a little, and then you have a grip on the game no matter who you are.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

isn't blue yoshi pretty decent and he plays without a sh (i have not played him though )

Yup.

And those who cant SH wish they could. Just like people on keys want more directions!

Exactly. I'm one of the first to john about not being able to short-hop, and how much it affects me.

blue yoshi is a player who actually uses jigs.

oh i read that wrong, i thought you were talking about the actual character yoshi.

NVM

Hi near



But yeah... I do decently well with Puff without short-hopping online, but I also play a regular puff offline. So I can easily tell you how much easier and how very necessary short-hopping is at high level play.

 

[The Star King]

Melee isn't that much more technical than Smash64 if you look at the characters that aren't space animals.

 

[linkoninja]

Smash 64 still takes crazy amounts of tech skill for some characters and moves. Especially for fox, ness, yoshi.

depends on how you want to play them.
Besides Jump Canceled Shine can you explain how Fox is technical?

I could see Yoshi as needing a lot of tech skill.

But what about Ness? His DJC is pretty easy.

 

[ballin4life]

Low single lasers and double lasers take a lot of practice. Also the faster you get with fox the better because his overwhelming speed can be one of his biggest advantages.

With ness doing a basic djc once is easy, but doing djc combos like fair chains is very difficult.

 

[Tambor]

The hard part about fair chains with Ness is setting them up.

 

[ballin4life]

Um... would you agree that fair/nair/bair chains are a lot easier if you have perfect djcs?

 

[linkoninja]

Um... would you agree that fair/nair/bair chains are a lot easier if you have perfect djcs?

I agree and I see your point now.


From everyone's perspectives do you think it is NECESSARY for a Fox to know how to JCShine
or Double laser
*and laser really low

 

[ballin4life]

Being good with lasers will make your fox a lot better. Also shine out of shield is pretty useful, but you don't need to have perfect shine cancel for that

 

[linkoninja]

Being good with lasers will make your fox a lot better. Also shine out of shield is pretty useful, but you don't need to have perfect shine cancel for that

besides Camping what are the benefits for being able to laser well?

 

[Surri-Sama]

You can add lasers in for damage as well as edge guarding

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svdtNteE1U0

 

[ballin4life]

besides Camping what are the benefits for being able to laser well?

They can be used for approach, to counter approaches, to pressure your opponent, to tech chase, to limit your opponent's movement.

Easily the best projectile in the game. I mean, what are the benefits of firebals with mario, or any projectile? Take all that, except it moves faster and is harder to dodge, you can shoot higher volume, and they can't even be cancelled out by attacks.

 

[linkoninja]

You can add lasers in for damage as well as edge guarding

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svdtNteE1U0

but as far as offense, and combos are concerned do you need to laser well?

 

[Surri-Sama]

yes, SH DL while moving is something i love doing and helps control my foe (i can approach with it some what so it's not "defensive")

 

[asianaussie]

Short hop single laser/double laser is a great start to an approach, and the best part is that it's a projectile, so you don't have to get in and commit until you're sure you won't take unnecessary hits.

Lasers basically force the opponent to approach, and a standing fox has at least triple the options an approaching fox does, which gives you more control over the match.

 

[ballin4life]

Haha well maybe I've been doing it wrong for so long by playing aggressively with fox.

 

[dch111]

but as far as offense, do you need to laser well?

Yes, it is a great approach. Trying to approach by Fox's aerials alone is much less effective. And doing normal standing lasers is often too laggy and leaves you open to attack.

 

[Sempiternity]

The mayflash adapter (The main one that people use that has 2 ports, is black and which, ironically enough, says "for PC USB" on the front) works on my old PowerPC.

Hahaha! This is further proof that Apple have just become d**ks over the years.

 

[Mahie]

You can also cancel lasers, compared to every other projectile in the game, which makes them that much better.

 

[linkoninja]

You can also cancel lasers, compared to every other projectile in the game, which makes them that much better.

How do you do that?

 

[The Star King]

Landing on the ground after a laser cancels the lag, like in every other smash game.

 

[linkoninja]

Landing on the ground after a laser cancels the lag, like in every other smash game.

So it's all about shooting a laser-late into your jump?

 

[Sempiternity]

So it's all about shooting a laser-late into your jump?

Yeah, it's like the main principle behind a short hop double laser.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

i use short hop single lasers as approach with my fox as much as I laser camp

but my fox is really weird :o

 

[asianaussie]

i use short hop single laser too because i prefer to do running short hops and consistently doing shdl from running short hops is ridiculously hard on keyboard

 

[Surri-Sama]

consistently doing shdl from running short hops is ridiculously hard on keyboard

I found it became easier when i switched from D-pad to Analog as well

 

[SSBPete]

2 questions, not very relative or important just curious.

i landed a full samus upsmash on a full sheild in the japanese version and it broke the shield, does it work on the american version aswell?
also can captain falcon sh double uair? because i thought i saw it done once but i wasnt too sure. i tried it a few times but i couldnt manage it. i can sh double uair with mario fairly easily so its not my skill that lacks, unless you have to do it insanly fast.

 

[Surri-Sama]

I tried and i cant pull it off (obviously this doesn't mean it's impossible but) so either it cant be done or you got some really low frame rate to do it at.

I CAN do Pikachus double Uair SH too so...i dont think it's a "skill" issue with me either

 

[asianaussie]

has to be completely fresh (if its been used a couple times it'll only do 40% as opposed to 50%)

you can get a sh double u-air but it has to be a standing short hop and you obviously won't get much of the second u-air out...in fact i don't think any significant attacking frames appear unless you're vsing dk or something

 

[Surri-Sama]

I'd like to see vidz pl0x...if j00 canz

 

[asianaussie]

well i can certainly force a non-z-cancelled landing animation most of the time with a second u-air

like i said dunno if any attack frames come out