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[Yobolight]

Double jump land is canceling your second jump on platforms to land on them faster.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Lolwhoops, thank you for the correction

 

[King Omega]

Cartridges have internal batteries and once those run out the cartridges more or less lose the ability to save. Some of my 10+ year old GameBoy carts have started to kick the bucket, but you can replace/swap the battery.

 

[The Star King]

Double jump land is canceling your second jump on platforms to land on them faster.

Actually it's also used for when you double jump really fast and your double jump gets canceled on the same surface too.
Just canceling your jump on a surface in general. But I guess that's like the difference between wavedashing and wavelanding. What you're talking about can be referred to as "platform djl", but really it's the same technique applied differently.

 

[151rby]

I tried to do [that cool technique to cover ground faster with Ness] and I'm not fast enough. I can do a super-fast DJC with uair, but I haven't yet been able to do it out of an initial dash and follow up with another initial dash. I did a super-fast fair DJC out of an initial dash a couple times, but couldn't manage to Z-cancel at the right moment.

I'm thinking the best control input would be, after smashing the control stick sideways for the initial dash, quickly roll it upward and button-slide from down-C to A in order to do a uair DJC, and then quickly roll the control stick to the side again for the next initial dash. Does this sound good? Or do y'all think a different control input would be better?

 

[Yobolight]

I didn't have any problem with the technique.
It works with all of the aerials you just have to cancel them. It is just a fox trot with DJCs instead of pauses.

What method do you use to DJC? You might need to reconsider how you want to hold your controller, in order to DJC quicker.

 

[151rby]

Most of the time I just use the C buttons for the jumps, either tapping them in quick succession or sliding, depending on how short I want the jump to be. But I was thinking that it might be potentially faster to use the control stick for the first jump and then complete the DJC by sliding from down-C to A, however I need to work on the technique of combining control stick jumps with C jumps.

 

[Yobolight]

Most of the time I just use the C buttons for the jumps, either tapping them in quick succession or sliding, depending on how short I want the jump to be. But I was thinking that it might be potentially faster to use the control stick for the first jump and then complete the DJC by sliding from down-C to A, however I need to work on the technique of combining control stick jumps with C jumps.

I don't really like double tapping a single C button or using the control stick. Using the control stick just has too much margin of error for things like horizontal DJC bair because you have to move the stick so quickly.

The Firo method leaves little room for error, enables potential maximum speed DJC's, and doesn't take long to learn.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqmDxe18Pco

Actually it's also used for when you double jump really fast and your double jump gets canceled on the same surface too.
Just canceling your jump on a surface in general. But I guess that's like the difference between wavedashing and wavelanding. What you're talking about can be referred to as "platform djl", but really it's the same technique applied differently.

"Double Jump dash" or something would be a cooler name for the technique than "double jump land". I think Ness's utility of the tech is specific enough to warrant its own name.

 

[ballin4life]

i can't do the firo method at all ... i tried it because the side of my thumb swells up if I do too many button slide DJCs heh

 

[151rby]

"Double Jump dash" or something would be a cooler name for the technique than "double jump land". I think Ness's utility of the tech is specific enough to warrant its own name.

PK Dash has a nice ring to it.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Looks like Teleport Beta from Earthbound so I would to call it that.
It makes sense as this technique makes Ness
....
betta

 

[Yobolight]

As a Jigglypuff vs Kirby and Pikachu what is your preferred stage?

I typically bring them both to dreamland, but I am not sure if this is because it is optimal for matchup or because of personal preference. I am more confident that Jiggs is better versus Kirby on Dreamland because Kirby can't really poke under the platforms the same way Pikachu can.

I am thinking mostly DL vs Hyrule, but I would love to hear a case for Congo.

 

[151rby]

Looks like Teleport Beta from Earthbound so I would to call it that.
It makes sense as this technique makes Ness
....
betta

Teleport was my first thought, but unfortunately that would be easily confused with the "Teleport" that Jigglypuff, Samus, and Fox can do. Adding "Beta" could help to disambiguate but still I think there would be mix-ups.

 

[Zelda_Fan_]

Hey guys. The only character I frequently find myself losing to is Kirby. I normally use yoshi and/or link, and I typically experience success against all other characters.

My question is: Which characters have the most advantage over kirby, and what should I keep in mind when facing a Kirby? As a yoshi main, I feel I have virtually no way to approach (aside from baiting and punishing Kirby's fsmash with a well placed hair). Once I land a hit, I have no problem comboing and controlling the match, but starting combos on Kirby is just so difficult with Yoshi.

Also, which stages are most disadvantageous to Kirby? I find that I have the most success against Kirby (with Yoshi) at Peach's Castle and Kongo Jungle. I feel that this is because it is effective to pressure Kirby by approaching from below a platform, and often, after grabbing the ledge of Kongo Jungle, I'll drop and double jump through the stage into a dair/bair/nair etc (I implement a similar strategy in Peach's Castle by jumping form the bottom level to approach Kirby on the upper level).

Ultimately, I feel that if I play a perfect match, I provide myself with a 50/50 shot of beating Kirby. Any mistakes I make, however, are so easily punished by Kirby because his grab is SO quick. I know I've asked a lot of questions, so in sum, are there any tips to keep in mind while facing Kirby, specifically in regards to approaching with Yoshi, overall strategy with Yoshi, and counterpicking?

 

[151rby]

According to the current tier list, Pikachu is the character with the best chance of beating Kirby, at least in a one-on-one stock match between high-level players, with items off, where the only allowed stages are Peach's Castle, Kongo Jungle, Hyrule Castle, and Dream Land.

If you're having problems approaching, maybe you should try more of a campy strategy. Also, using mind games can open up some pretty good opportunities to punish missed moves. If you were to outline what a typical failed approach looks like for you, we could provide more specific tips.

 

[ballin4life]

Ultimately, I feel that if I play a perfect match, I provide myself with a 50/50 shot of beating Kirby. Any mistakes I make, however, are so easily punished by Kirby because his grab is SO quick. I know I've asked a lot of questions, so in sum, are there any tips to keep in mind while facing Kirby, specifically in regards to approaching with Yoshi, overall strategy with Yoshi, and counterpicking?

I'm kinda confused by this part ... kirby's grab is terrible. Wait til you see his utilt!

Anyway, with Link throw lots of projectiles and you have a pretty good shot. Link does have some attacks with decent range so you can use those + projectiles to play keep away.

For Yoshi, it is tougher. I use dash attacks and bairs to approach. Fair I feel is worse against Kirby compared to other characters since Kirby kinda out ranges it (with his bair/nair/utilt) - but that's kinda true of all Yoshi's aerials. One thing to remember is that a Kirby in the air is vulnerable from above (though on the ground he can own you with utilt). So you can try to bait an approach, full hop over his aerial and then DJC into a dair / nair from above.

If Kirby is grabbing you a lot then spam DJC nairs or jabs or ftilt or something to beat his grab.

 

[Zelda_Fan_]

I'm kinda confused by this part ... kirby's grab is terrible. Wait til you see his utilt!

Anyway, with Link throw lots of projectiles and you have a pretty good shot. Link does have some attacks with decent range so you can use those + projectiles to play keep away.

For Yoshi, it is tougher. I use dash attacks and bairs to approach. Fair I feel is worse against Kirby compared to other characters since Kirby kinda out ranges it (with his bair/nair/utilt) - but that's kinda true of all Yoshi's aerials. One thing to remember is that a Kirby in the air is vulnerable from above (though on the ground he can own you with utilt). So you can try to bait an approach, full hop over his aerial and then DJC into a dair / nair from above.

If Kirby is grabbing you a lot then spam DJC nairs or jabs or ftilt or something to beat his grab.

In regards to Kirby's grab, he can z-cancel a dair on my shield and grab me before I can input any command whatsoever. Whenever a Kirby is attacking my shield with any ariel, if the attack persists until he lands, I, as Yoshi, have found no way to avoid getting grabbed. And since Yoshi can't effectively shield-grab himself, these two factors make playing defensively against Kirby much more difficult.

The reason, to me, that this is a problem is because when facing Kirby, Yoshi can't approach very easily, urging me to play defensively against him. Take Falco in Melee, for example, as a character who's maximum potential lies in a maximally aggressive play style. Link, conversely (in both N64 and Melee, in my opinion) plays best defensively by controlling the match with projectiles and allowing his opponent to make mistakes. In the Kirby vs. Yoshi matchup, Yoshi cannot overcome Kirby by focusing on either extreme. When I truly feel in control of the match against Kirby is when I am able to align my playing to a certain sweetspot in between aggressiveness and defensiveness, in which I am pressuring Kirby to outplay me, waiting for opportunities to punish his smallest mistakes, and punishing well.

If this type of thinking is correct regarding this matchup, then more specifically, I ask: how can I best pressure Kirby to maximize the opportunities with which I can punish him?

 

[ballin4life]

In regards to Kirby's grab, he can z-cancel a dair on my shield and grab me before I can input any command whatsoever. Whenever a Kirby is attacking my shield with any ariel, if the attack persists until he lands, I, as Yoshi, have found no way to avoid getting grabbed. And since Yoshi can't effectively shield-grab himself, these two factors make playing defensively against Kirby much more difficult.

Uh, Kirby can do a lot more than just grab you if he aerials your shield. He can utilt your shield for an automatic shield break. Kirby's grab is really not very good at all.

Generally shield grabs are not very good for any character, and especially not against aerials. The aerial will almost always cause too much shield stun for you to shield grab. So don't rely on shield grabs. Defensive play definitely does not mean "go for a lot of shield grabs".

If this type of thinking is correct regarding this matchup, then more specifically, I ask: how can I best pressure Kirby to maximize the opportunities with which I can punish him?

Do you know how to DJC shield break? Shield pressure doesn't get much better than automatically breaking their shield whenever you hit an aerial on their shield (assuming Yoshi's nair isn't stale). Do you know how to DJC through a Kirby aerial to hit him with your own and start a combo?

Also watch some videos of good Yoshi players and see what they do.

 

[King Omega]

I'm trying to think of anything you can reliably shield grab besides getup attack. There isn't much.

Shield is just terrible, which is one of the things that bothers me about 64. Apart from making it a rarely used option, it reduces the usefulness of other aspects of Smash like empty hops. I keep stupidly empty hopping in front of people, and of course it never works because they would have to be an idiot to shield instead of just upsmashing/utilting/uairing me out of the would-be aerial. Basically shield sucks so shield metagame is nonexistant.

 

[AtotheZ]

Shield metagame is existent, just not as apparent as Brawl/Melee. At all levels of play the shield can be useful, mostly in situations where getting grabbed is your best option instead of combo'd (assuming you're facing a player that you know can't shield break, or is using a character that can't shield break), and of course using it on the edge of a platform or a stage will allow you to get pushed off and react instantly accordingly. There's also shield jumps and shield drops to help escape/continue combos, respectively.

shield still sucks tho

 

[King Omega]

Getting grabbed is the same thing as getting comboed against a lot of characters, and against the ones it isn't, it's often the same thing as getting edgeguarded. Shielding on the edge and getting pushed back off is the only regular use I find for shield, and even then, that's nothing but defensive stalling until you can get back onstage. You don't jump onstage and shield because "oh, he'll do X to me and I'll do Y OOS," you do it because you know you would get knocked back off otherwise.

There's also shield jumps and shield drops to help escape/continue combos, respectively.

I suppose.

 

[The Star King]

Shield is still used plenty at all levels. Noobs just use it at the wrong times.

 

[Yobolight]

Shield are useful for anytime you can block a hit and not get grabbed/shield broken/other.

Smash 64 simply doesn't have as good of defensive options and techniques as Melee and Brawl (I thought about listing them, but there are just too many).

This isn't a bad thing. I do think it would be an unarguable position to state that 64 is the most offensively oriented of the three (PM = 4?) smash games.

Edit: somebody answer my question about Jigglypuff and stage selection against top tiers plz.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

i would say that melee is actually more aggro, at least at the top levels (with the exception of HBox, lol.) People tend to jump around a lot waiting for their opening. Less pressure as in melee as people basically know not to shield

 

[asianaussie]

the top tiers beat your best tactics anyway and you have to outplay them, hyrule is probably best simply because you have less chance to be killed from aberrant b-airs/n-airs while spacing

64 is not necessarily the most offensively orientated (hur dur hyrule metagame, also see isai vs gerson), it merely has the greatest level of punishment from single planned hits - you could even argue that basic defence is even more important in this game because you're lacking options like airdodges and 'effective' OOS stuff (aka braindead get-out-for-free options)

 

[King Omega]

Shield are useful for anytime you can block a hit and not get grabbed/shield broken/other.

Which is very rarely.

This isn't a bad thing. I do think it would be an unarguable position to state that 64 is the most offensively oriented of the three (PM = 4?) smash games.

Project M is not a Smash game. In fact, Project M is not a game.

 

[M!nt]

depends i'd say she's better on hyrule for all of them except fox

 

[Yobolight]

the top tiers beat your best tactics anyway and you have to outplay them, hyrule is probably best simply because you have less chance to be killed from aberrant b-airs/n-airs while spacing

Obviously that matchups are really difficult, but I am talking in terms of minimizing my disadvantage.

I have become fairly confident that going Hyrule as Jigglypuff is the best option against a Pikachu because of the additional space to relieve some pressure and not get forced off stage, but Kirby isn't that quick and can't pressure platforms as well as the rest of the top/high tier so I thought that Dreamland might be a better option in that matchup.

64 is not necessarily the most offensively orientated (hur dur hyrule metagame, also see isai vs gerson), it merely has the greatest level of punishment from single planned hits - you could even argue that basic defence is even more important in this game because you're lacking options like airdodges and 'effective' OOS stuff (aka braindead get-out-for-free options)

Now that I think about it the lack of defensive options may make 64 more defensive in order to compensate.

On your example of Isai vs Gerson, I find dittos to be fundamentally more campy because both players are going to be executing similar strategy and thus will have intense spacing wars, which can go on for a while with no hits.

 

[asianaussie]

every fighting game at high level is basically an intense spacing war

what DL platform pressure (vs jiggs) does pika have that kirby's drills can't rival? u-air on shield? just take the two u-airs and jump out

and if you mean that you can aircamp kirby easily on DL, then meh, you can do the same on hyrule quite easily

 

[AtotheZ]

Remember also that on hyrule Jiggles can safely use rest there. On Dreamland/Congo sometimes you're in a position where the opponent respawns before your rest's lag has worn off.

I'd say you should take Pikachu to Hyrule for sure

As for fox I'd say Dreamland, he's one of the characters that you actually don't want to give him too much space because he can hit and run jiggly to the point where it's laughable. Hard match up either way.

I'm not too experienced with Jiggs v. Kirby tho, but you're wrong about kirby not being able to create platform pressure as well.

 

[Han Solo]

How do I do what Sangoku does, basically using an emulator to input moves for different characters at certain frames?

Like this:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDgOjFvi8Ow

 

[Yobolight]

what DL platform pressure (vs jiggs) does pika have that kirby's drills can't rival? u-air on shield? just take the two u-airs and jump out

Scenario: Jiggs on top platform, Pika underneath. Shield a single uair, they expect to you to hold shield in anticipation of the second so instead of launching they second uair they land on side platform, and call the jump with a near instantaneous bair and proceed to violently edgeguard you to death.

Kirby isn't quick enough to pressure in the same way.

and if you mean that you can aircamp kirby easily on DL, then meh, you can do the same on hyrule quite easily

My (noobish?) conception of the Kirby vs Jiggly matchup is that it is a primarily vertical spacing war with Jigglypuff aggressively attempting to avoid getting outraged horizontally.

So yes, essentially air camping, but I think that Dreamland rewards a successful spacing victory to a greater extent than Hyrule because Kirby can survive to a higher % there and Jiggly has a significantly tougher time finishing off opponents at higher % than Kirby does therefore making Dreamland marginally better for Jiggly in the matchup IMO.

 

[The Star King]

No, platform camping is somewhat more powerful on Hyrule simply because of the layout.

Also, lolwut at Kirby surviving to a higher percent on Dreamland? It's the other way around.

 

[SheerMadness]

Yoshi's neutral b beats everything Kirby has. Use that (space it carefully don't be all reckless with it), bair and dash attack as your main approaches.

Also you can jump above them when they're on the ground and DJC their uptilt into a nair or fair. That's tough though, so I'd only recommend trying it to high level Yoshi's.

 

[Yobolight]

Also, lolwut at Kirby surviving to a higher percent on Dreamland? It's the other way around.

I might have been unclear, but I was trying to say that Kirby dies more quickly on Dreamland.

 

[M!nt]

Yoshi's neutral b beats everything Kirby has. Use that (space it carefully don't be all reckless with it), bair and dash attack as your main approaches.

Also you can jump above them when they're on the ground and DJC their uptilt into a nair or fair. That's tough though, so I'd only recommend trying it to high level Yoshi's.

djc bairing into an uptilt is the worst

are you sure about nair beating uptilt? Seems like you need to double jump armor to get through

 

[SheerMadness]

Yah I meant Double Jump Counter.

 

[mixa]

So, I'm sure you've all been through this at some point: when I play against (most) people. I start doing things I never do, or I don't think it's good. e.g. with Fox I'll: not SHDL; dash attack and Fsmash more than it's recommended. And spam grabs. I'm desperate, I guess. While getting better opponents is one way to go -- because those shιtty moves will stop working on them--, I wonder if anyone has had this problem before and what was done to make it go away. I guess I need to face matches in a more analytical way, and forget about winning a bit. But y'know, if you got anything to say to this, please do.

 

[asianaussie]

if you play against people significantly better than you it's very hard to get techs like SHDL into your game, since you will likely be punished hard for any failed attempts

this is why you go for things like grabspam or f-smashes, less work for relatively great reward - SHDL and the like only truly become amazing weapons when you can do them effortlessly and focus on watching your opponent while you're pressuring them

just practice mode it up, maybe play people closer to your level/below your level and slowly integrate that into your game

Scenario: Jiggs on top platform, Pika underneath. Shield a single uair, they expect to you to hold shield in anticipation of the second so instead of launching they second uair they land on side platform, and call the jump with a near instantaneous bair and proceed to violently edgeguard you to death.

firstly his b-air is hardly instantaneous, secondly you have ample time to react to that (you can drop through the platform or something), and thirdly, we can theorycraft all day but it's quite apparent that it's not going to go anywhere

Kirby isn't quick enough to pressure in the same way.

why does he need to be quick to pressure you, he has such huge potential range with his u-tilt, b-air and stuff that he can sit on the side platform quite comfortably to threaten you

So yes, essentially air camping, but I think that Dreamland rewards a successful spacing victory to a greater extent than Hyrule because Kirby can survive to a higher % there and Jiggly has a significantly tougher time finishing off opponents at higher % than Kirby does therefore making Dreamland marginally better for Jiggly in the matchup IMO.

im 100% sure there is a simpler way to say this, you don't need to use lots of words to make your point stronger or anything

i actually sorta agree with you that DL > hyrule when it comes to jiggs getting kills much easier, but if you intend to do nothing but camp incessantly then hyrule is always better

 

[ballin4life]

I'm trying to think of anything you can reliably shield grab besides getup attack. There isn't much.

Shield is just terrible, which is one of the things that bothers me about 64. Apart from making it a rarely used option, it reduces the usefulness of other aspects of Smash like empty hops. I keep stupidly empty hopping in front of people, and of course it never works because they would have to be an idiot to shield instead of just upsmashing/utilting/uairing me out of the would-be aerial. Basically shield sucks so shield metagame is nonexistant.

It would suck though if shield were really good ... I mean they're called fighting games not blocking games. Also it is lame how in Melee/Brawl shield breaks basically never happen.

Also obligatory "shield is good if you know how to use it"

Getting grabbed is the same thing as getting comboed against a lot of characters, and against the ones it isn't, it's often the same thing as getting edgeguarded.

What? Falcon and Jiggs can do some big combos from grabs, and sometimes DK can, but that's pretty much it for serious combos off grab unless you're talking about the Hyrule tent area.

Shielding on the edge and getting pushed back off is the only regular use I find for shield, and even then, that's nothing but defensive stalling until you can get back onstage. You don't jump onstage and shield because "oh, he'll do X to me and I'll do Y OOS," you do it because you know you would get knocked back off otherwise.

You can use this tactic on any ledge - e.g. on a platform or on the ledges on the center part of Hyrule, etc. It's especially common to use on platforms (btw shield on platforms can often be good since it is hard for an opponent to follow up with grabs/shield pressure unless he can land next to you on the platform while keeping you in shield stun)