Arkansas Smashers Chat

[Vts]

Who said you can take my xbox and for what purpose?

To get street fighter 3 3rd strike on your xbox

 

[arbustos]

http://www.genesisdbr.com/blog/2011/08/23/genesisss-2/


tags are funny: Mango ***** Shoulda Won genesis Better then all of you

 

[G. Vice]

Thinking back on how he executed his fox, fox really makes me sad. To be played at that level, i don't know that if mango's fox was playing mango's ganon at a mango skill level if he could get a stock off with ganon.

THAT is depressing. But Ganon mains go in knowing the difficulties, and have no right to complain halfway down the road :/

...still stinks though.

 

[arbustos]

i don't know that if mango's fox was playing mango's ganon at a mango skill level if he could get a stock off with ganon.

I strongly believe a Ganon playing at his level would do fine

especially considering Mango's penchant for blitzkrieg play, which can't be maintained against the defensive walls without suffering casualties (e.g. Genesis 2 grand finals).

 

[Vts]

looks like being cool over took his winning mindset

still know he would have won but that essay was basically him saying he's an elitist and the rest of the community sucks except for like 5 people.

just some hate is what i saw from that and little bit of hey i'm still better than you.

 

[G. Vice]

I strongly believe a Ganon playing at his level would do fine

especially considering Mango's penchant for blitzkrieg play, which can't be maintained against the defensive walls without suffering casualties (e.g. Genesis 2 grand finals).

Doing fine would still not equal winning.

Even your hero asked Chaddd if he thought Ganon was a viable character, indicating doubt.

That in Dr. PP is scary, as he's very much a realist in terms of smash.

 

[arbustos]

I think it indicated curiosity in Chaddd's outlook more than anything. PP has tried to convince Kage of Ganon's abilities more than once. He said he might even learn some things with Ganon and show him in person.

Ganon is definitely a good character. He's rightfully surrounded by other successful characters who have a realistic chance of beating basically anyone - Doc, Samus, Luigi, Pika, and some even lower. Shroomed, Hugs, Ka-Master, and Axe are easy reference points here. Even Chaddd, Kage, and Linguini have accomplished a hell of a lot in their tourney history, and they haven't even pushed Ganon to the top level yet. Ganon just hasn't benefited from a truly top level player to show off his moves (even as a secondary).



@vts: man, everyone DOES suck compared to him and the other couple people who play near his level

the difference in videos alone is ********

 

[G. Vice]

I think it indicated curiosity in Chaddd's outlook more than anything. PP has tried to convince Kage of Ganon's abilities more than once. He said he might even learn some things with Ganon and show him in person.

Ganon is definitely a good character. He's rightfully surrounded by other successful characters who have a realistic chance of beating basically anyone - Doc, Samus, Luigi, Pika, and some even lower. Shroomed, Hugs, Ka-Master, and Axe are easy reference points here. Even Chaddd, Kage, and Linguini have accomplished a hell of a lot in their tourney history, and they haven't even pushed Ganon to the top level yet. Ganon just hasn't benefited from a truly top level player to show off his moves (even as a secondary).



@vts: man, everyone DOES suck compared to him and the other couple people who play near his level

the difference in videos alone is ********

Solid points to which I can see a light at the end of the tunnel. To which I offer the "tier list" is inaccurate theory? Seeing as how Pikachu is moving up, and Doc/Samus are doing well, it just surprises me that in the entire world no ganon is managing what they are.

Either, Ganon players suck, or maybe he's not quite as well equipped and easier to pound on than we thought. Either, it's a sad reality. But if Mango or PP picked him up, I would definitely be interested to see the result.

 

[arbustos]

Somewhere on this site they were talking about how Ganon is hard to use at a high level, which is very true. He has to be so precise and also out-think his opponent often enough to pull off the victory. If he slips up once, it's gonna hurt (especially when they shoot you). Spacies, Marth, Falcon, and Sheik are nearly as susceptible to being death comboed in today's metagame (sometimes more so depending on the matchup), but they all have a better recovery than Ganon and are better characters besides. But he's still good! What I'm getting at is that it would take a player we haven't had (yet) to be efficient enough with Ganon to take him to the top level (efficiency in terms of a hitting:getting hit ratio). The tools exist though. It's in the Ganons' hands to move forward, like the other characters in and around his tier have.

Yeah the tier list exists. No one can deny some characters are better than others. But I think too much stock is placed in it, which creates johns and kills the urge to push a character beyond the iron cage the tier list has placed it in. The ICs might not have been anything for a very long time if Chu had looked at their placement in the low tier and told himself it wasn't worth it. More recently, Axe just told the tier list (sans Sheik) to **** itself. Playing the top tier (not as a tier *****, but because they're the funnest to me) has given me probably the best perspective on this issue. Lower tiers can only see how good the characters above them seem to be. I see how good all the characters below me actually are. When I see no Fox get above 9th place, I'm not surprised at all. When I see Doc in top 5, I'm not surprised (at the character, but yes at how good Shroomed has gotten). This game is way more balanced than many many fighters, unless you're willing and able to eliminate the bottom tier by like laser camping and spamming dair with Falco or something dumb. But those exceptions are rare, and the people who'd resort to it rarer. Didn't Mofo almost beat Hax with Ness? Didn't Taj 2-0 Hax, first game Mewtwo vs Falcon (and take first game on SS in their set last year)? That matchup is abysmal, at least ON PAPER. Speaking of Ness: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEo_J-VMP9k&feature=player_detailpage#t=169s


I was looking up the 3s tier list and found this. It has the gist of it.

"Tiers have been and will likely always be a hotly debated topic. Just because a character is a higher tier does not mean you should play them. You're best off picking characters you like because of how they play. Regardless, some people have disadvantages and the tier rankings do a fair job of outlining these, but DO NOT take the rankings as the final end all be all word about who the best characters are. Think of it more as a loose guideline."

As for the list...

S+ - Chun-Li
S - Yun
A+ - Ken, Dudley
A - Makoto, Yang
A- - Urien, Akuma, Ryu, Oro
B+ - Hugo
B - Elena, Ibuki, Alex
C - Necro, Twelve, Remy, Q
D - Sean

Makoto finally fell below the top 4. Heeell no, top tier only. Chun Li all day baybay! YAP YAP YAP

 

[Seifersythe]

Great! Now I can play her without the guilt.

 

[SmokeMaxX]

Just for curiosity's sake (and in case it comes up)- for the Smashers that come in from out of town/out of state, are you guys going to be throwing an afterparty or afterhours type event for those that aren't 21?

 

[The March Hare]

I would think Mango was an arrogant *******. Which he sounds like. But I totally agree with him. <.<

I've been maining chun li since the first time I picked up a street fighter game.

 

[chaddd]

Even Chaddd, Kage, and Linguini have accomplished a hell of a lot in their tourney history, and they haven't even pushed Ganon to the top level yet. Ganon just hasn't benefited from a truly top level player to show off his moves (even as a secondary).

I'm going to have to go ahead and strongly disagree with you, here.

Tipman was a god. Linguini plays Ganondorf as well as you possibly can. So do Kage and I.

It's somewhat laughable for you to think that someone who wins the bigger tournaments playing Ganondorf would somehow unlock some special ability in Ganondorf that we do not have. Trust me when I say there's nothing that those players could do with Ganondorf that we could not. I've taken games from M2K, Linguini from DaShizWiz, and Kage from Mango.

The only limitation in place for players like us at this moment are the counterpicks we're capable of and the characters we play.

Ganondorf's main problem is that his level of commitment for each move is much too high. It's simply not possible to to predict absolutely every approach and reaction that your opponent will have at the level of play that Mango and Armada play at, which is something Ganondorf requires to win.

Not only that, but whenever I play other Ganondorfs with my secondary characters I can't express how incredibly easy it is to wait for an aerial, or bait an aerial, and then run in for the grab. Or wait for the inevitable jab after the aerial, which has become the new norm, and then run in for the grab. Ganondorf has so many more commitments and so few advantages over the entire character cast that it's screamingly obvious.

The fact that he's never won a national is no coincidence. And it's definitely not because there's some gigantic skill gap between the Ganondorf mains and the Fox/Falco/Peach/Puff/Sheik mains.

I also need to point out how much easier it is to accomplish all of the same things Ganondorf can do with other characters. My Fox is actually worse than my Ganondorf, but the effort I'm forced to put into remaining flawless is nothing compared to when I'm playing Ganondorf. This is the main variable that affects outcomes of high level play. When two players are at the same skill level but one doesn't have to work even half as hard as the other to achieve the same goal, the outcome is predictable.

As a matter of fact, after we played a set, PC Chris once told me something to the effect of "Your Ganondorf is good, but I used to play Ganondorf, so you know how that goes."

This is how I feel if I have to play against any Ganondorf.

This is the greatest weakness with Ganondorf, hands down. Some players are incredibly weak against Ganondorf and the matchup is much easier than you'd expect. However many high level players have a lot of experience against Ganondorf, and simply spend the match exploiting the abilities that ruin Ganondorf. If you force an attack from Ganondorf, there is no amount of speed or knowledge that will prevent the level of time commitment Ganondorf has to use to do that attack. This is the same concept Ganondorf uses to win, unfortunately when it's applied against Ganondorf himself, it makes his actions incredibly predictable.

Thinking back on how he executed his fox, fox really makes me sad. To be played at that level, i don't know that if mango's fox was playing mango's ganon at a mango skill level if he could get a stock off with ganon.

This is a perfect point. Consider a high level Ganondorf ditto and how most of the match involves up airing the other Ganondorf when he tries to short hop for a forward air. This same concept applies to the vast selection of characters that can do this much easier and at a much higher speed. All it takes to beat a Ganondorf, no matter how good, is to wait for him to swing.

I think Ganondorf is an amazing character with the ability to win 1st at a national/international event. However I don't believe that it's something the current Ganondorf players aren't doing with Ganondorf. I really believe that it's simply because, like many characters, he needs to be paired with the right counterpicks in order to make it all the way through the bracket. And this is something that I have to point out is typically done by every high level player, except for Fox/Falco players, because Fox/Falco are already counterpicks without trying to be.

 

[arbustos]

I 100% get what you're saying and mostly agree. I know how easy it is to take advantage of Ganon once you get comfortable with him, and even more when you know the guy playing him. Kage suffers from that particular double whammy up north. I'm also not saying you guys aren't near the top of the game, or that Mango playing Ganon would make it all OK. It's purely conjecture on my part, but I'd still say Mango/PP are better players than the rest of the field, regardless of character, which is somewhat supported in their non-spacy secondaries. Someone truly at their level (or higher), applying that consistency of decision-making and discipline to Ganon, is all I was talking about. It could be true that you guys have taken that particular angle as far as possible (Kage definitely hasn't), and all that's left is to learn more general situations/cg/whatever, but I don't want to believe it.

There's gotta be more to Ganon than either running into his moves or knowing the matchup well enough to eliminate his chances. The johns generally trend that way though, so I guess everyone's in agreement as to his true viability :\

This is a perfect point. Consider a high level Ganondorf ditto and how most of the match involves up airing the other Ganondorf when he tries to short hop for a forward air. This same concept applies to the vast selection of characters that can do this much easier and at a much higher speed. All it takes to beat a Ganondorf, no matter how good, is to wait for him to swing.

Yeah, but then Ganon's standard bait and switch comes into play. That **** is effective! And the punishes are ridiculous.

I agree about the possible need for other characters though. No one's perfect enough to pull freaking Ganon to GF at a national.

 

[chaddd]

It's purely conjecture on my part, but I'd still say Mango/PP are better players than the rest of the field, regardless of character, which is somewhat supported in their non-spacy secondaries. Someone truly at their level (or higher), applying that consistency of decision-making and discipline to Ganon, is all I was talking about.

I have to agree with you on the part about them being better players. However I don't believe that they have any higher discipline than the rest of us.

It's simply a matter of the number of hours a player is able to put in against other higher level players.

I played PP in about 15 games last weekend, including against his Ganondorf. Just from those few games I was able to learn so much about what his motives are while playing a match. However, I'd have to say that his Ganondorf moves exactly like mine, minus a few little tech tricks that take a little bit of time to approach correctly.

The only real difference between his Ganondorf and mine is a difference in his decision making processes. As a much higher level player than most of the Smash community he's incredible well versed in patience and defensive spacing. Realistically, at a certain level, pro Smash players are within a relatively close skill range. I'd say that the top 20-30 best players in the country are at relatively the same skill range, it's just certain players have a higher ability to perform in front of a crowd, under pressure, and against other high level players. For instance, Mango very obviously has an ability to get under Mew2King's skin to the point that it affects M2K's playing. It's really variables like these that most strongly affect the outcome of national level tournaments, and it's certainly not any level of dedication or discipline that others lack.

And unfortunately, there really isn't a lot more to Ganondorf that the things you listed. He's really the only character played at high level play that requires the entire length of time for a short hop to complete his best aerials. This level of commitment to his moveset makes anything other than being defensive against an aggressive opponent playing a faster character impossible.

 

[arbustos]

I'll take your word on it, but I'm still hopeful. Go out and prove me right!


--I meant discipline within the game itself by the way, in terms of efficient and smart move choice. Not discipline to the game - I don't doubt you guys have put in the work. Those very top players seem to have a bit more discipline besides everything else they're good at, but that may just reflect on the nature of Ganon like you say.

 

[Yo$himan]

Just for curiosity's sake (and in case it comes up)- for the Smashers that come in from out of town/out of state, are you guys going to be throwing an afterparty or afterhours type event for those that aren't 21?

We might just play more melee at home. We stay up all hours of the night.

Edit:

Falco vs. C. Falcon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8P11Nh3h2z4&feature=related

 

[chaddd]

I'll take your word on it, but I'm still hopeful. Go out and prove me right!


--I meant discipline within the game itself by the way, in terms of efficient and smart move choice. Not discipline to the game - I don't doubt you guys have put in the work. Those very top players seem to have a bit more discipline besides everything else they're good at, but that may just reflect on the nature of Ganon like you say.

I'm certainly going to do my best.

And you're right. There's a certain discipline among to the tournament winners that seems to deal mostly with patience within a match up. Like Armada vs Hungrybox at Genesis. A lot were quick to say it was the gayest set ever, but I believe it was genius and something that needed to happen to Hungrybox to expand his abilities as a player. It blows my mind to this day to think that Armada sat down with the intention of spending over 30 minutes on a single set. Now that is true patience and discipline.

 

[Yo$himan]

Check it.

 

[The March Hare]

that's dum

 

[SmokeMaxX]

We might just play more melee at home. We stay up all hours of the night.

Edit:

Falco vs. C. Falcon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8P11Nh3h2z4&feature=related

That's what I mean. Are you guys going to play more Melee at someone's house and are out of staters invited? Like, should I advertise this in the ARK IV thread as a viable option for out of state minors or people who just want to play Melee?

 

[Yo$himan]

That's what I mean. Are you guys going to play more Melee at someone's house and are out of staters invited? Like, should I advertise this in the ARK IV thread as a viable option for out of state minors or people who just want to play Melee?

I'll have to talk with the others to figure out what we are doing.





check it.

 

[arbustos]

Yeah Max, that's fine. We can and will play after the tourney, especially with the twins here.

idk where though. Ace's?

 

[G. Vice]

Yeah Max, that's fine. We can and will play after the tourney, especially with the twins here.

idk where though. Ace's?

I'm sure if we run it by him that would work yeah.

Also, after much contemplation and seeing BunBun's "Kels in my hero" shirt. I've decided I'm going to make some shirts for you guys.

They'll read, "G.Vice is my hero, especially his fox."

 

[The March Hare]

I'd wear it. Free tee shirts. There's no down side. :D

 

[Vts]

no memphis for me guys sorry

 

[memk]

Why is there no mention of memk?

http://********/images/forever-alone-20/awkward-silence-forever-alone.jpg

 

[Yo$himan]

So who all is getting into third strike? I'm trying to decide if it is worth my time to learn.

 

[AR_ACE]

Hi, what's up everyone. It's sure been a while. I would not mind hosting anything at all and I live in Jacksonville now but I got a bigger and roomier apartment now so plenty of room for housing and smashing. Vts has been over here a couple times and can tell you guys how to get here. Well I am looking forward to playing everyone again.

 

[BunBun]

Looking forward to playing you again ace =D

 

[Raven_Knight]

Hi, what's up everyone. It's sure been a while. I would not mind hosting anything at all and I live in Jacksonville now but I got a bigger and roomier apartment now so plenty of room for housing and smashing. Vts has been over here a couple times and can tell you guys how to get here. Well I am looking forward to playing everyone again.

Sweeeeet Can't wait

 

[The March Hare]

downloaded third strike to my computer. I'll be pro with my ****ty logitech gamepad in a couple of weeks.

edit: hmm this game is frusterating as ballz.

 

[G. Vice]

Looking forward to playing you again ace =D

LOL troll

bunbun I ACTUALLY halfway-kinda almost enjoyed playing you this time.

I still think the ganon stomp on the mountain thing was cool. Thanks for shaking my hand, it made me feel special :D

 

[arbustos]

no memphis for me guys sorry

twas fun

Hi, what's up everyone. It's sure been a while. I would not mind hosting anything at all and I live in Jacksonville now but I got a bigger and roomier apartment now so plenty of room for housing and smashing. Vts has been over here a couple times and can tell you guys how to get here. Well I am looking forward to playing everyone again.

We can do a real crew battle at ARK yeeeeah

Show up Chamberlain

 

[G. Vice]

twas fun

We can do a real crew battle at ARK yeeeeah

Show up Chamberlain

Yeah, it'd be nice to have ace and chams there to pick up some of the slack we had left off last time.

Also, saw this. WOW lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXCLNnj8OBY&feature=channel_video_title

 

[Vts]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXCLNnj8OBY&feature=channel_video_title

why are you watching me ken and isai playing teams we know they are god like

 

[arbustos]

Hm... apparently VTS and Adam both play Ibuki (look at this guy go - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4GmT7znNJ8o#t=234s) and Seif and I both play Makoto... lots and lots of ditters! Maybe I'll solely learn Akuma first for the sake of diversity.

Did you guys change the soundtrack back to the original instead of those terrible new remixes? And what did you do in terms of filters?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTru4cfYnkQ

I learned how to edgeguard Ganon even better

PP gets hit for a lot of the same reasons I do

 

[SmokeMaxX]

Hi, what's up everyone. It's sure been a while. I would not mind hosting anything at all and I live in Jacksonville now but I got a bigger and roomier apartment now so plenty of room for housing and smashing. Vts has been over here a couple times and can tell you guys how to get here. Well I am looking forward to playing everyone again.

Hope you don't mind, but I posted that you'd be willing to host Smashers for an ARK IV afterparty. Maybe it was just bad timing, but that's what I inferred from this post. If that's not what you meant, let me know and I'll edit this.

 

[Seifersythe]

Hm... apparently VTS and Adam both play Ibuki (look at this guy go - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4GmT7znNJ8o#t=234s) and Seif and I both play Makoto... lots and lots of ditters! Maybe I'll solely learn Akuma first for the sake of diversity.

Did you guys change the soundtrack back to the original instead of those terrible new remixes? And what did you do in terms of filters?

You have to unlock the remixes with points you earn via VS matches, which was a nice touch. I'm rockin the filters on 'crisp' and 'scan lines off' so it looks nice and slick. I don't care what any purist says, the 'arcade' style looks like *** on an HD screen.

 

[G. Vice]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTru4cfYnkQ

I learned how to edgeguard Ganon even better

PP gets hit for a lot of the same reasons I do

How did you learn to edgeguard ganon better? It's so depressing trying to recover vs marth as ganon. I used to think it was even, now I think it may be in marth's favor. All the marth players are starting to enforce that belief in me, even against the top Ganon players.

Also yeah arby, this marth is quite reminiscent of yours playing well to be honest.