Arizona Brawl Power Rankings and Brawl Social Thread (Updated: November 2013)

[SFA Smiley]

Yeah, I stopped practicing MK completely...

I mean, yeah my MK is ***, but it couldve been decent by now...

regardless I think i'm gonna trim my characters again. I'm gonna stick to Gdubs. Use MK a little bit for training purposes. And hiatus on Peach. There's not much to Gdubs but there is SO much i have to improve on it's not funny. And there are still really basic things with Gdubs i screw up all the time. I think I killed myself at least once every set i played someone this weekend. That's very amateurish, i should figure out how to ****ing recover before i start trying to become ninjalink/ally and use the whole cast...

 

[KiraFlax]

Smiley you have no idea how much improvement you will make if you stick to Game and watch. Me and alot of others here were discussing it. We all see gigantic potential from you. Keep training that G and W man, im serious as hell when i say your day is coming.

 

[Jane]

I am for ban and I am for japanese stage list.

Big post tomorrow from da computer.

Edit- by tomorrow I mean later today. Lol

 

[FoxFireMage]

For ban and stage list (then again I don't play this much, cuz CSEX is coming) If "we" want to beat Japan then we need a better metagame, which is held stagnant by the bat *invokes shield of flame*

 

[Govikings07]

Haha Jane is it because their stage lists all have ledges? i dont want the Japanese rules but am for the ban

 

[Yoshiken96]

Ok, this is really hard for me to say. You can put the vote down in whatever way you want after you read my post. My thoughts are this:

With our current ruleset, we are at a huge disadvantage and will continue to go downhill in our improvement. With that said, a ruleset that banned Metaknight would, at least in my opinion, be better than that, thus making my vote being for the ban. This is ONLY for the current ruleset though.

On the other hand, if we switched to the Japanese ruleset, and tweaked it a little, then I would be for that instead of the Metaknight ban. HOWEVER, the tweaking has to be in the right areas. Before I put my vote down for the Japanese ruleset, I want some of you higher ups to answer the following question: How much of the Japanese ruleset would be used? Would it just be the level change? I also heard that the Japanese only have single elimination in their tournaments (but I could be wrong, so please correct me if I am), and if this is true, would be use that? Would the time change (because I think 8 minutes is perfect as is)?

So, in summary, my votes are this:

Ban: Yes, ban MK, but only if something better hasn't been presented (AKA a revised Japanese ruleset)
Japanese Ruleset: Depends on what revisions are made. Though, if the perfect changes were made, then I would support this over the ban.

 

[Medz!]

i am not for the ban. i also agree with what darklink said on the NYTE thread.

 

[Aaven]

ive literally been training every day since apex no more sitting at home and not training at all and letting people catch up to my skill level.

Yeah, you can't ever let my garbage Pit come that close to winning a match again Kevin.

On another note, I have no vote in either favor for the MK Ban right now, people worked for years to get him banned, and now that he's banned they realized they made a mistake and are trying to un-ban him, so that doesn't make much sense to me, just make a decision and stick with it in my opinion. If he's banned, that's cool. If not, that's cool too.

I'm all for the Japanese ruleset though.

Hey Rob, would you be able to give me a ride to the tourney this weekend? I can provide gas money if anyone else is willing to drive me. I have a garage sale that morning though so if you can let me know what time I'd have to be ready to leave.

 

[Jane]

^pretty sure no one has changed sides. Same people that were antiban are still antiban and vice versa. Its just now there is a new option that people want to experiment with.

 

[Aaven]

I just don't get it, here is my question:

If he gets un-banned eventually, are people going to vote to try and get him banned again after that?

There's only a few years to wait until the next Smash Bros. game comes to light, I'm just hoping something concrete is decided with MK before then, because so far even though he's banned it seems like people aren't really interested in sticking with his ban, for whatever reason.

It just seems like this game has been out for far too long to not have a concrete conclusion on this matter. It's dragging on and on.

 

[Duff0]

japan ruleset = mk legal.... so why are there two different polls

i vote japan ruleset

 

[Dark Shifter]

Favor of Japanese ruleset. Stages and mk legal.

 

[The Sage of Shadow: Darklink]

The question I should've asked is

Japanese ruleset or MK ban. Basically pick one.

Revote if you contradicted. Basically just Jane and Aaven.

Also foxfire, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. WITHOUT MK our metagame would become stagnant and Japan would further evolve. This is proven by the Japanese ruleset evolving their metagame beyond ours in such a short time. Read the posts before making a stupid comment. Or at least support it well.

Aaven: The thing is that a new very strong point has been created with APEX. Japanese players (with the very best not even coming to Apex) destroyed us. Destroyed our very best like adhd, m2k, ally, etc. Their opinion is now very valid, in addition to the evolution of their metagame with their ruleset.

Yoshiken: we would still do double elimination and pools. We would just do the stage changes basically. Based on your post, I assume you prefer the Japanese Ruleset over the current one.

Jane: pick one or the other.

Aaven ^

EITHER FOR MK BAN OR FOR JAPANESE RULESET (MK legal, 3 stages, etc)

Once Again

FOR JAPANESE RULESET: 8 (Darklink, Kira, Duffy, M3DZ, Smiley, Yummy, Derp, Darkshifter)
FOR MK BAN: 2 (Rob, Jane)

 

[Yoshiken96]

Actually, wait to count my vote. Before I vote, I just want to know what are your intentions with this vote. Do you plan to present it to the committee in charge of the Unity Ruleset to change their mind? If more people want the Japanese ruleset instead of the ban, would you just change the ruleset here in AZ, and ignore Unity?

I am just curious.

 

[Jane]

aaven, people aren't sure if the ban will be permanent because it is an experiment, and no one can really know the outcome, so of course even the ones in favor of the ban won't be sure if they'll be voting to extend the ban once that day comes around.

i just want to see what would happen to the tournament scene without metaknight. i want to see if there will be more diversity. i also want to see if people will just be more content with the game they play as a result of not it not being over-saturated with metaknight.

i want answers to these questions, i want results to an experiment that has always been a possibility, but never a reality. the main question is "what would our tournament scene be like without metaknight?" now, after apex, many like chris are trying to shift the discussion away from experimenting and more to a message of urgency: "japan is better than us. if we ban metaknight now, the gap will widen when we should be trying to close it."

this is a valid point and argument. but here is what i say -- japan is better than us for many reasons, but attributing it to one reason isn't the answer. they are better than us for many reasons, but a very important factor i want to bring up right now is that they don't play for money at all, only for pride and honor. i say that this is why they have so much better character diversity, not at all centralized by metaknight.

this is not because they only play on three stages. yes, metaknight is buffed by our stagelist because the more stages you give metaknight to abuse the easier it'll be for him to win. but no, shortening the stage list WILL NOT fix the problem of over-centralization which the pro-ban is trying to address.

americans will continue to abuse metaknight because we do not play simply to prove who is the best, we also play to win money. because of this critical factor, we will continue to use metaknight if it means inching closer to victory, and money. by we i do not mean our arizona community; aside from maybe k9, everyone either mains metaknight or does not main metaknight. i'm talking about the american community. so many people across our country have pocket MKs or an MK for doubles specifically. if we played ONLY to be the best, WITHOUT money being involved, this would not be so.

i strongly believe, although i could be wrong, that bryce would not have dropped D3/wario for metaknight if there was no money involved. i think he would have been more inclined to WANT to be the best arizona D3/wario if we only played for pride and honor. he would want to be different, he would want to fulfill a unique role in our community. because of being closer to the money though, it encourages the "win at all costs, use every advantage disposable to you" mentality. bryce may come out and directly say "your reasons you listed for me dropping D3/wario and picking up MK are wrong. i picked up MK because i genuinely enjoy playing him more than the former characters, no other reason than that," well, i would admit i was wrong about bryce. but i bet you that my hypothetical about bryce would ring true for a great deal of players across the country.

 

[Yummy!]

the japanese ruleset !

 

[DerpDaBerp]

Yea on the Japanese ruleset (Don't ban MK, use new stage list, etc.)


I also vote for not counting the votes of people who have abysmal tournament attendance (i.e. Foxfire)

 

[The Sage of Shadow: Darklink]

Derp: Agreed

Yoshiken: Probably both options. As of right now nothing is certain.

I will post more later when I have time. Specifically to address your points Jane.

But one thing really quick. If Japan played for honor, it means they also want to win. There is no shame in Japan for using MK so why would they not pick him?
It's because they attribute their loses to themselves instead of a character. So they strive to get better and realize that MK is as hard (or easy) to beat as any other top player with any character.

Their top mk's are better than ours. Yet the top 2 players in Japan use IC's and Olimar. In addition a small portion of the best players even use metaknight. The point is that they are just better. A huge factor towards this is their mindset and their ruleset.

Banning metaknight =/= their ruleset
Banning metaknight = contradicts their mindset (blaming a character instead of other variables)

 

[JustinKamikaze]

@Jane - Even if people wanna drop their mains to pick the best character in the game(which happens in most fighting game communities), what does it matter? If you're a better player than them, than strive to keep being a better player than them. Obviously if they are better than you than results will still be the same, as they understand the game and have that extra leverage to work with. Just stop thinking about what others choose to do, and focus on yourself. That negative attitude towards the character is the reason most people lose.

 

[The Sage of Shadow: Darklink]

This is my proposition. It's fun and caters both sides.

We can split the tournaments of this season into 2 separate tournaments (just split the fees and prize pools). They will both be double elimination brackets. (Pools will be changed to be shorter or taken out, and the rulesets of that will be discussed later)

One will be normal USA ruleset and the other will be the Japanese ruleset.

In this way the mk-ban experimenters still get what they want, even if it turns out that the majority favors the Japanese ruleset.

 

[DerpDaBerp]

...hrmm...

that'll take ****in forever though lol

I see no harm nor foresee anyone's hardcore raging at letting at least one entire tournament try out Japan's style exclusively

Hopefully all this'll wind up being the opposite of what Japan does to Western countries regularly when they take our stuff and innovate and come out on top

 

[Jane]

i am with you about blaming loses on self and not character. i think everyone should have that mentality should they want to be a true great.

from the looks of things we'll be implementing the japanese ruleset. could someone link me up to a page where i could look at the entirety of the rulset? i couldn't find anything through google.

 

[DerpDaBerp]

^Yes please






DerpDaBerp never searches

 

[Duff0]

i wouldnt support two brackets i would just join one of them

 

[The Sage of Shadow: Darklink]

If we don't do pools, then it won't be longer.

Plus it gives both sides the chance to win money. Why wouldn't you support it?

 

[JustinKamikaze]

Chris wants more money

 

[The Sage of Shadow: Darklink]

The fees and pot prizes would be split, in total there won't be more money to give out or more to pay for. Read the original post before making a comment like that please.

 

[Duff0]

id rather just come to a decision

 

[The Sage of Shadow: Darklink]

Don't think of terms of what you personally want, rather think of the community as whole.

 

[Jane]

@Jane - Even if people wanna drop their mains to pick the best character in the game(which happens in most fighting game communities), what does it matter? If you're a better player than them, than strive to keep being a better player than them. Obviously if they are better than you than results will still be the same, as they understand the game and have that extra leverage to work with. Just stop thinking about what others choose to do, and focus on yourself. That negative attitude towards the character is the reason most people lose.

i focus on myself. but i also focus on what others do. i am always interested in the entirety of a groups tendencies and mechanics, and getting down to the why and how. as i've said before, i just want to see what would happen without metaknight. of course i am hopeful that the outcome will be positive, but i would not deny if things stayed mostly the same. i guess you could say i focus on others a lot (in all facets of life, not just smash) because i always want to try and improve things for everyone. to say that "an MK ban will lead nowhere and we just shouldn't do it" is wrong, because there is so much support as well as so much possibility for positive change, that why shouldn't we try it?

 

[Jane]

chris we should just do one or the other. if our AZ community wants a japan ruleset then i will stand behind you guys. i have strong opinions on the ban obviously, but in the end i will gladly do whatever our local community wants to do.

 

[DerpDaBerp]

I'm kind of torn

We've talked before about experimenting with a banned MK, and now that it's post-Apex, many of the players have expressed joy at finally having a chance to compete without him.

But there's also this recent Japan deal that many of us find appealing.

I feel like we'll be shorting a lot of players if we don't give the new Unity a try at a tournament too (as much as I don't really like it). Because obviously, we intended to conform to Unity long before we were considering Japan's, so not at least giving much of the community what they've been waiting for (by running a MK-banned tourney) would not seem fair.

 

[The Sage of Shadow: Darklink]

I just think it would be beneficial to try both. Especially if more people support the Japanese ruleset, I want the pro-mk ban people to get what they want to. Time wouldn't be increased, fees wouldn't change, and it seems like it would be fun.

Our state metagame would also increase too. Since people are motivated to increase game knowledge by keeping metaknight and people who don't use metaknight are still forced to use other characters for the JPN ruleset

However, if most people believe it should only be one way, then I will support that too.

In the end, I will support the majority of the Arizona community. Be it American Unity or Japanese ruleset. Even if we know as a country that if will widen the skill gap between us and Japan.

 

[DerpDaBerp]

Ya know, if the TO can keep money, setups, time-management and brackets under control without a change in entry fee, then I really have nothing against one with Japan's and one with Unity's in the same tournament

 

[Dark Shifter]

The power lies in the present moment. Things change and people will have to deal with these changes. Both for the ban and not the ban.

@Jane, I mained mk before I mained d3/wario. I picked up d3 because I did not like the mk vs snake mu. and my love for d3 grew from there. I repicked up mk because yea, some matchups became eaiser, like the mk ditto <3. I do not personally think that mk dominates our region. Me, chris, yummy? Use mk, 3 out of 20ish people that would use him in tourny is not overwhelming to say the least.

 

[Jar'd]

The biggest problem with "experimenting" with MK banned first is the meta game isn't stagnant. Character play style and development is changing constantly. By banning MK, his development will cease ONLY here. Elsewhere, he will continue to develop. Likewise, other characters and their strategies and overall mindset, against him or otherwise, will change.

What I believe to be the safest, most logical "experiment" would be to implement the Japanese rules FIRST. For however long a time period, just like the MK ban, is purely up to popular opinion. However this way, negative effects are minimized.

We've been playing for years now. We've played on every stage that has any ounce of competitive viability numerous times. Unlike character's though, these stages haven't "changed" over time. Frigate Orpheon is the EXACT same as it was when I first got brawl. My Wii has not developed it's Frigate Orpheon skills" over these years, and neither has anyone else's. This isn't an apocalyptic situation where, all of a sudden, our Wii's get smart and say "Hmm, if I were to speed up Rainbow Cruise 20% at intervals I calculate to be for my advantage, I'll probably succeed more." No, that's completely ridiculous.

By isolating static variables first, our development as a whole is not compromised. What if, we banned MK for six months, and we realized we were wrong? Well that sucks. We just ***** our possibility at competing with other countries for a long time. If on the other hand, we go with the rule set first, and find that things still aren't fixed, it brings us to an interesting point. If we have put that much research and development, including utilizing the concepts developed by other regions that claim MK's is not bannable, and still find issue in his being, there are two possible options: One, eventually other countries will reach the same conclusion. Two plus two equals four in America, and it does in Japan. A character who's development was so poor that he or she breaks the foundation of the game is still the same character in Japan. The time it takes to reach that conclusion has no significance. Option two is that everybody here is worthless and I guess it doesn't even matter what happens because they don't deserve to have any success at this game.

On the topic of Japanese rulesets, while looking into it the other day, I found their pool system to be extremely interesting. While it's not feasible to use for our small tournaments, I thought I'd bring it up, just as some more insight, and a possible idea if we were to use their ruleset for whatever larger event. click

 

[Yoshiken96]

Alright, I only have a few minutes before my next class, so I can't post a huge explanation for my reasons for the following actions, which sucks because I really wanted to comment on some of the stuff that has just been said.

I am in total support of having both tournaments ran at the same time so that we can experiment with both. However, if we do not do this, and we decide to only have one tournament, then I vote to ban MK. I will explain my reasons later.

 

[Jane]

What if, we banned MK for six months, and we realized we were wrong? Well that sucks. We just ***** our possibility at competing with other countries for a long time.

if by other countries you mean specifically japan, then i would have to agree a little bit. but i am sure we would still beat other countries; other countries arent that great, save for a handful of players. furthermore, our metagame would only stagnate in one matchup. as mike haze said in his video, only 19% of americans use MK. i'm almost positive that that number is even lower in japan, where characters like sheik and pit are used a lot more than here. so MOST things in the game would stay the same. and in a 6 month to one year period, metaknight-specific tactics or strategies won't change much.

 

[Jar'd]

Our meta knight specific techniques would not develop, but other country's would. They will continue to improve their knowledge of the matchup on both sides. That puts us at a large disadvantage in regards to competing against other MKs. When one character develops a new concept that helps them to win, the other character will attempt to develop a counter strategy. Even if the matchup ratio never changes, that doesn't mean the matchup itself stays the same. What was a 4:6 matchup back then isn't a 4:6 matchup now for the exact same reason. On the contrary, theoretically matching a current player against a long past player could alternate the matchup to a much more unfavorable ratio.

The other thing is, with MK, you're forced to pick good options. A lot. Picking bad options against him sucks pretty bad. But, just because you learned a good option in the MK match up, doesn't mean all that practice is completely worthless against another character. Training to pick the best choices at all time is a skill that will help you against every character.

 

[Jane]

But, just because you learned a good option in the MK match up, doesn't mean all that practice is completely worthless against another character.

agreed. and the same can be said about an option learned in a different matchup also applying in the MK matchup.

Training to pick the best choices at all time is a skill that will help you against every character.

which is why i feel not having metaknight wont hurt our ability to dominate the world except japan. japan is just better than us.