Are we serious about adding characters to brawl+?

[leafgreen386]

From GSC. And yes this deserves its own topic.

http://board.gscentral.org/showpost.php?p=145270&postcount=560

This message is mostly for phantomwings but I figured I'd post it in here since everyone is absolutely in love with this Dynamic SD Loader

First I began explaining the concept of the DSDL to a few people who were interested in the concept. After giving out the information they got a little more curious about exactly what can be replaced with this code so I began to explain that it would be possible to replace textures, models, stages, large sections of code etc; and then this is where the fun began.

With the concept of the DSDL it has come to the conclusion that it is fully possible to take brawl and extend it WAY beyond its disc limitations (for instance, a 32GB sd card would drastically increase the space available for this) and with the ability to pin codes and replace them - we could write up new codes that specifically search SD:/ directory for models, textures etc;

Then I introduced the Ganondorf Sword code - At this point, they're getting quite excited about this new concept.

Originally Posted by TheRealBobMan
Wait... if you can change character animations (make 2 movesets), we could theoretically create entire characters from scratch at this point. Hell, up until I knew we could do this, I figured we could always just export a character's skeleton and make a model based around it (and texture it too). I mean, they've already changed Falcon's hitboxes to buff the knee... I think we can do everything necessary to make a new character.

How many people are working on this, and what sort of resources do they have? I want in! I really gotta get into all of these mods. : )

I then started talking about the concept of replacing large portions of code and recoding movsets... taking already available models, Assist trophies (isaac and lyn specifically in my interests) and giving them playable movesets (could be done, give Isaac a little bit of link, a little bit of marth and a little bit of Pit the give him custom B-special moves) and allowing their final smash attacks to be the Assist Trophies normal attacks.

I told them that if this is possible then I believe that it is entrely possible to edit the codes and add models to your SD to add new fully functional characters to your brawl game.

Originally Posted by TheRealBobMan
Hell, not only would I be interested in adding characters, I'll help the best I can! : )
I'm learning animation (3D), so while I'm not great at it, I'm an option for getting character animations. I can also model, and I could probably figure out how to texture even though I have no instruction in it. After that, we just need a setup/kinematics guy to put in a skeleton (I could eventually do that too if I get my teacher to help out, but if we have someone that can already do it, awesome).

The only problem is my home computer isn't the best choice to work in Maya from (for modeling, texturing, set up, etc...). Besides that, I'm definately interested in helping with balance.

And yeah, I support Issac 100% as playable, so long as we can also add Jenna, Sheeba, and Mia (Brawl needs more chicks). Hell, Felix can replace Issac as the AT that uses move (unless everyone wants Issac to have "move" in his moveset).

And then

Originally Posted by Tony_Knightcrawler
I dunno about Isaac. I love him, but if we're not careful this could turn into Soul Calibur Brawl. Why not add Jenna, Ivan, Mia, Manardi (scythe for the win), Karst, Piers, or Sheba? Those characters can equip weapons other than swords. That's the same reason I'd prefer Robo or Ayla over Crono or Frog, from Chrono Trigger. You've got to think, there are some important series out there that, if represented, will HAVE to include a sword character's appearance. Ninja Gaiden, for instance. Roy's probably going to need to make a comeback, so that's another one. I'd also be careful about picking out too many characters from a single game. Even adding one character and stage would take quite a bit of effort.

BTW, I can model, UVmap, and texture. But I'm very slow at the latter two.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdtrcTVnfnE (pick HD for it to work)

Anyway, I definitely want to mod Brawl. I'm not sure I'm ready right now, though.

We need to start a closed mailing list of everyone with applicable skills. Modeling, UVmapping, texturing, boning, animating, particle effects, sound effects, music, and most importantly programming. A few community members who hold a lot of sway in the community (SP, Youko, Gimpy, etc. Personally, I think SP is the best bet) might also need to be included in the mailing list. We also need to support anyone who is willing to learn and give it effort. And we need PhantomWing's appraisal of the situation. He's proven to be the most important Brawl moder period, and if anyone knows for sure whether these things are possible, it's him. And if he doesn't think anyone will add new characters and stages, he probably won't support it as much.

BTW if you want to get Japanese modders in on this (SP would be useful for coordinating cross-cultural exchanges, too LOL), one of our first projects should be Dragon Quest related. That'll get their attention in a flash.

Keep in mind that although this is even more illegal than texture modding that was done previously since it does not require burning a copy of Brawl, Nintendo might still try to come after the modders.

More or less - we've got a following and willing people to jump right into this DSDL scene - I know that it will take a while but the agenda is there. I can't say that I can really help more then maybe some testing and suggesting because I don't have any coding skills (I'm very good at innovative ideas though /:D ) but I'd absolutly be up for anything you guys wnat to try to throw my way, organizing this or whatever.

-TheEnigmaLiesBroken

Ok, so basically, we have people who are interested in doing this. Now, the question is, do we want to ask to join forces with them to create these characters for the purpose of brawl+? I haven't sent an invitation to them yet, since this is a pretty big topic, but I feel it would be appropriate to do this now. It will take a considerable amount of time for some of this stuff to come to fruition, after all. We simply need to decide whether we really want to do this or not. I think we should go for it, but I figured I should ask back here before sending an invitation. This is currently what I've got written and am planning on sending to Enigma:

Hi. I was wondering if you could pass this message onto those who you referenced in your post.

You may have heard of brawl+. If you haven't, it basically takes brawl and modifies the gameplay through hacks to create a faster-paced and more balanced competitive game, which has already gathered a fairly large following while still only in its beta stages. We were actually talking about doing something like this after the first "gold" release of the game, to periodically introduce new balanced characters into the roster. However, we lack the resources to be able to fundamentally create the characters, ourselves. We actually had only figured it would be feasible to modify existing data, which already would take some elaborate coding by some of the top coders.

So we were wondering if you would be interested in joining the brawl+ development process to help create characters for this game. These characters would be designed to be balanced within the game and would become an official part of the project, to be played by all those who own brawl+. You would of course receive all applicable credit for the creation of these characters.

We hope you will consider this, and await your response.

If we do end up deciding to do this, it's important the message be as good as possible, so I'm open to critiques on how to improve the message, as well.

 

[CT Chia]

this is quite interesting. theyr mailing list idea could then be handled here instead.

however i have to stress one thing. we have to be careful what we do with licensing rights being how this is tied to mlg and we have to be careful with things (like how we had to change our name to WBR). for now atleast, only create characters that already appear in brawl whether it be as AT (waluigi), background (knuckles), trophy (paper mario), or something like that. that way we know brawl already has the licensing for these characters. if we start making like geno and distributing this, that might not be good and could cause a legal dispute since ur using characters owned by other companies in a game that doesnt have the rights to use them already.

maybe before hastily inviting them, ask them/wait for a little proof of their work. last thing we need is to invite a bunch of ppl new to smashboards, have em back here, and find out its not possible per say lol

 

[goodoldganon]

My train of thought:

HOLY CHRIST THIS IS AWESOME! All the characters that should be in Brawl can be realized.

then

We have 39 characters we are already having trouble balancing. Add 5 to 6 more to the mix adds even more we need to balance.

then

HOLY CHRIST ISAAC IN BRAWL!

This will be a lot of work for the people that do this, but it could significantly increase Brawl's lifespan. There are a boatload of questions I could ask, but they would be more down the road but here at the start, I think I understand. Of course these guys would be added a little ways after we have made a final set, but imagine coming onto the Workshop to see: "Challenger Approaching: Mewtwo!"I don't know I'm rambling. I think nothing but good can come out of this endeavor. This will do nothing but make Brawl+ that much more enticing.

I am worried about the flood gates this would open. People will whine and whine asking for so and so to be added now that we can...

EDIT: Chibo brings up an EXCELLENT point. We need to stay away from third party characters, even Sonic and MGS ones. I think it says on the title screen specifically that those games are still licensed by Sega and Konami respectively. Anyone we add has to at LEAST be a trophy. Personally, I'd argue Mewtwo would be our safest bet as the first one.

 

[Yeroc]

The short answer as I see it: We shouldn't be looking to actively pursue this as part of the current project yet. We have enough to do with the Brawl+ project just doing character balance for now.

Eventually, like TheCape's ideas, I could see exploring this avenue of game customization to be a feasible one. I would think this would be a natural for ISO hacking for those brave enough to try it out. But if we have the capability to softhack our way there, then I don't see why that's a problem either.

Either way, I like the idea, but balancing the game we've created should be our first goal.

 

[goodoldganon]

The short answer as I see it: We shouldn't be looking to actively pursue this as part of the current project yet. We have enough to do with the Brawl+ project just doing character balance for now.

Eventually, like TheCape's ideas, I could see exploring this avenue of game customization to be a feasible one. I would think this would be a natural for ISO hacking for those brave enough to try it out. But if we have the capability to softhack our way there, then I don't see why that's a problem either.

Either way, I like the idea, but balancing the game we've created should be our first goal.

Agreed. It sounds like this will not only take a little bit of time to get off the ground, but it should take time to perfect our first character. What I'm getting at is, we don't need to work on the two at separate times. We can still work on character balancing while people are working on the kinks in this character endeavor.

 

[Yeroc]

Agreed, I was trying not to say that we shouldn't attempt to get the ball rolling on new characters if people want to, but (at least in this room) I think the priority should remain finishing Brawl+ as it's been outlined already.

 

[CT Chia]

also, we should never let the public know about this. when we unveil the first addition, it will be ground breaking.

sonic and mgs characters should be fine if theyr in the game some other way. and im saying this not only just for principle, but also cause knuckles is a must have lol

 

[Deleted member]

if we are gonna do stuff like this I think we should first do like the chars that were dropped from melee -> brawl or other very iconic ones (bowser jr. would be a personal favorite).

however, we do need to be very carefull. I don't know if some of you have visited the Gfaq brawl boards around launch last year, but half the topics was either a over the top char list or a way to long post on why certain characters should be in.

 

[shanus]

It would be awesome but one interesting thing is how it could effect our reputation negatively...

A lot of experienced melee / brawlers I know in the northeast have refused to give B+ a try and called it "fanboyism" or "smash fanfiction" at its finest. Making this have its own characters could in effect detract from our goal of appearing as a serious game mod as a competitive standard.

However, making chars could be fun as hell.

 

[MuBa]

I think we should definitely make new characters, but as everyone said, our first priority is to finish the current code set we are working on.

Leaf, I would like you to send an invitation to these guys so we can get somewhat of a start of making new characters. And also I agree with chibo, this should NOT be mentioned outside of the WBR.

I'm all for this project

 

[Almas]

As this is the Workshop Backroom, if these people want to come to smashboards, there should be no issue in letting a small group of people into here to work on actively creating characters, which would then be thoroughly balanced before release.

 

[Revven]

Ummm... you guys do know that some of those people commenting are mostly randoms right? They probably wouldn't construct the characters like we wanted them to anyway. Furthermore, I'm almost positive none of them are interested in Brawl+ at all. At least, I'm pretty sure Enigma doesn't like Brawl+.

 

[Almas]

Yeah, I'm aware of that. But it would give the people who were truly interested in doing it a good location to communicate, and we would be able to provide advice even for vB balance.

 

[leafgreen386]

SMK, they would know going into this that the characters would ultimately be designed in the way they work by the people back here, even though they would get the credit for the actual creation of the models and such. Also, it doesn't matter if enigma likes brawl+ or not, since he wouldn't be one of the people actually creating the models. Also, there's the fact that by joining up with brawl+, their creations would be seen by everyone playing brawl+ as it is automatically part of the package. So they would be assured that these characters would be played and appreciated. Even if they aren't that big into brawl+ to begin with, I think reaching out to them is worth a shot.

Chibo, that's a good point about including characters not already in brawl in some form or another. I'll have to look up some of the laws about this, but I think that since this is a derivative work that is for nonprofit, it would be legit even if we did use characters such as geno that brawl does not already have the licensing for. In an absolutely worst case scenario, after brawl+ has already taken off, we could try getting written permission from the companies that own characters that we want to use, if that ends up being necessary to avoid legal problems. They may very well end up asking for a fee to use their character, in which case, we would just have to drop it.

Shanus, you make a good point as well about how this could affect our reputation negatively. It's the only reason I'm not completely sure about it. However, the fact we have the ability to do this, and the fact that it probably would draw in lots of new potential players while also extending the game's lifespan, I think makes it worthwhile to try.

Also, due to the immense amount of time it would take to create characters like this, I don't see why we would wait to start on it until later if we have the ability to start now. It's probably going to be quite a while before a character could be considered "finished," by which point it is very likely that brawl+ would have gone gold.

If everyone is ok with it, I'll send enigma the PM on friday. That way it's 1) not april 1st, and 2) we have time to revise it before sending it off.

 

[kupo15]

Im fine with it. I hope we don't add anymore flying characters though.

 

[leafgreen386]

Im fine with it. I hope we don't add anymore flying characters though.

Well, ridley was pretty popular pre-brawl release, so...

 

[goodoldganon]

Well, ridley was pretty popular pre-brawl release, so...

Hell

YES!!!!!

 

[kupo15]

Well, ridley was pretty popular pre-brawl release, so...

Fine I guess but can we really limit the number of flying characters? Like no more after ridley? In a game where the object is to knock your opponent off the stage, it is a poor design to have characters transcend that with an ability to recover from anywhere even if its not broken. That or we need to do some reworking of the whole flying mechanism

 

[CT Chia]

how bout... ridleys already in the game and hes 8 stories tall lol

 

[leafgreen386]

lol he isn't playable, though, and he can be scaled down. The fact that there's already a ridley model in the game should make it a natural candidate for becoming a character.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^The same can be said for Lyn, who I would personally love to have in the game (though she'd be trickier to make a moveset for. I've got some ideas though). Shadow too (lol clone character)

I really think we should follow through with adding characters if possible. Even though character balance is gonna be a pain in the ***, I think in the end it'll be worth it.

 

[goodoldganon]

Well if we send this mail out soon I think we should have a quick vote on a character we want added. A first guy. I stand by my statement that Mewtwo or Roy would be the easiest and safest bets.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Shadow would be easier and safer than both of them. We should make him just to see if the adding characters thing actually works (since he'd just be a clone with hitbox data changes)

Roy works for this too. But we already have a really, really good Shadow texture to work with.

 

[kupo15]

Roy and doc should be the easiest ones to make

 

[Dark Sonic]

I forgot about Doc....make him first. Extremely easy character.

 

[goodoldganon]

But Doc was sooooo lame...

My friend will have a Fangasm if we do Shadow though. HAHA.

 

[kupo15]

I forgot about Doc....make him first. Extremely easy character.

Lets

But Doc was sooooo lame...

My friend will have a Fangasm if we do Shadow though. HAHA.

Doc....lame!? Why are you even back here?

No more colored name

 

[goodoldganon]

I had a friend who was really good with Doc and those pills were so good. I loved playing as him, but I'd rather eat wood chippings then fight a good Doc.

EDIT: Ya I miss colored names. I actually logged onto Smashboards late last night and saw I had a green name. I got pumped thinking we were given our colors. Boy was I sad when I saw everyone else with one.

 

[leafgreen386]

We should do a character that people were actually really disappointed to see not make an appearance (as a playable character) in brawl. Not a character like... doc. Like, I know the melee doc mains miss him, but they represent a relatively small percent of the population. There are also already a ton of mario characters in the game, from which we would probably be adding even more.

Also, don't forget that we could very well be getting people willing to create the models and such from scratch, so we shouldn't feel limited in what we choose for our first creation. I'd like for it to be something that really turns heads. Sure, if they refuse to join us after asking, then yeah, we'd be limited to models that already exist (at least for the time being), but we don't know what's possible yet, so we shouldn't shut down options.

 

[Dark Sonic]

In that case...go with Roy dude!! Seriously, everybody was disappointed to see Roy go, he was such a funny character.

And he's easy (we need a texture made for him though, that Marth thing isn't gonna cut it).

 

[Deleted member]

I had a friend who was really good with Doc and those pills were so good. I loved playing as him, but I'd rather eat wood chippings then fight a good Doc.

EDIT: Ya I miss colored names. I actually logged onto Smashboards late last night and saw I had a green name. I got pumped thinking we were given our colors. Boy was I sad when I saw everyone else with one.

I thoght exactly that! but then everybody was in green

shadow and doc would be easy indeed, maybe just do those to test how all this character making works etc. and then decide wether or not we are actually gonna release them.

 

[Team Giza]

Would be tough to accomplish. It might even run into legal problems attempting it especially if we want the Brawl+ community to grow a lot. I would be a bit cautious when approaching this issue for Brawl+ purposes though we should try to figure out how to do it anyway.

 

[kupo15]

We should do a character that people were actually really disappointed to see not make an appearance (as a playable character) in brawl. Not a character like... doc. Like, I know the melee doc mains miss him, but they represent a relatively small percent of the population. There are also already a ton of mario characters in the game, from which we would probably be adding even more.

Also, don't forget that we could very well be getting people willing to create the models and such from scratch, so we shouldn't feel limited in what we choose for our first creation. I'd like for it to be something that really turns heads. Sure, if they refuse to join us after asking, then yeah, we'd be limited to models that already exist (at least for the time being), but we don't know what's possible yet, so we shouldn't shut down options.

I'm pretty sure more people cared about doc than roy and both would be equally as easy. In fact, doc would be easier because you don't need to use move swap

 

[Dark Sonic]

I'm pretty sure more people cared about doc than roy and both would be equally as easy. In fact, doc would be easier because you don't need to use move swap

WTF are you smoking? This is not even remotely the case.

In fact, prior to brawl's release many people were saying that they'd rather have Roy than Marth!

Roy is far more popular than Dr.Mario.

And Doc would also require a moveset swap, lest you want to replace Mario's moveset. Both characters require custom textures and both characters require moveset swaps. The only difference is that Roy requires more detail in both areas.

However, I think that's exactly what we should be looking for with regards to our first created character. I want our first character to be a completely different character, not just Mario with 3 or 4 trajectory changes. Roy would have changed sweetspots, changed trajectories, changed lagtimes, changed gravity, ect. Roy would be a top quality new addition, while Doc could easily just be a costume for Mario.

 

[kupo15]

WTF are you smoking? This is not even remotely the case.

In fact, prior to brawl's release many people were saying that they'd rather have Roy than Marth!

Roy is far more popular than Dr.Mario.

And Doc would also require a moveset swap, lest you want to replace Mario's moveset. Both characters require custom textures and both characters require moveset swaps. The only difference is that Roy requires more detail in both areas.

However, I think that's exactly what we should be looking for with regards to our first created character. I want our first character to be a completely different character, not just Mario with 3 or 4 trajectory changes. Roy would have changed sweetspots, changed trajectories, changed lagtimes, changed gravity, ect. Roy would be a top quality new addition, while Doc could easily just be a costume for Mario.

Doc would be more than just a costume change. Dtilt would send behind, cape would send downwards, pills were more effective than fireballs, the fair wouldn't be a joke, he most likely wouldn't be getting the FLUDD if we can do something about it..

 

[goodoldganon]

Hold a poll? BackRoom and these coders/designers only? Have:

-Roy
-Doc
-Mewtwo
-Shadow

Mewtwo would be the most work but the most WOW character. Doc and Shadow would be the easiest with just new textures and some new trajectories.

 

[leafgreen386]

In that case...go with Roy dude!! Seriously, everybody was disappointed to see Roy go, he was such a funny character.

And he's easy (we need a texture made for him though, that Marth thing isn't gonna cut it).

You mean model, right? Because we have textures based on marth, already, which I assume is what you were talking about.

Also, we should probably be trying to add variety to the cast with this... too many sword users and we'll run into problems down the line. We also need to be careful about not being too series biased. Like, if we added both roy and lyn we'd have four FE characters, all of which use swords. There are other series with characters that use swords, you know, and there are only so many things you can do with a sword character before things become repetitive, so we would need to really try and push different styles for this stuff. We don't need to be taking a series from 2 to 4 reps. I can see 2 to 3 being reasonable, but 2 to 4 is just... no.

The mario and pokemon series both already have huge selections, as well, which would make adding new entries to them a little controversial, unless they were really popular requests. I'd like to stray away from adding any characters to the mario series besides like... geno (assuming no legal problems), and if and when we add a member to the pokemon series, I think it would be restricted to just mewtwo, who would probably be the most popular choice for an addition. I'd mention the zelda series here, too, which is the third highest represented series in smash, but I can't really think of any characters that you would want to add from it. Wolf link? lol

We need to look at series that will turn heads that aren't already heavily represented, or ones that would become heavily represented if we added characters to them. I'd also like to try and save some of the more complex characters for after we have a hang of this. And when I say complex, this can include characters like shadow, who we could have the ability to design in a much more unique way than as a simple clone character, even though we could do a decent enough job just making it a clone.

Whatever we do make, it should be something we intended to make in the first place. Not something that will end up over-saturating a series if we follow through with other characters. Choosing an appropriate first character isn't gonna be easy.

Even though I say we shouldn't over-saturate a series, and the pokemon series already has a huge selection, I actually think the best bet for a first character (out of the choices of doc, roy, and mewtwo) would be mewtwo, since I could actually see us putting him in later down the road, regardless. Although a completely new series or another addition to a poorly represented series would be great, as well. We would just have to make it... really good.

 

[kupo15]

The pokemon has really been overly presented imo. Ivy, squirle, zard, pika, lucario, jiggs (think thats it?) while we have Fzero which has one, captain falcon. I would like to see little mac in there.

 

[goodoldganon]

Metroid and F-Zero are the only series represented in Brawl that could use another rep. What about Black Shadow or Blood Hawk? Blood Hawk could make a simple clone...Samurai Goroh is an assist trophy, but we run into the sword problem again.

I don't know, if we want our first character to be HUGE but not a new series I guess we should do Ridley then.

http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/gamemode/various/various36_list.html

That's a list of the trophies

http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/items/assist/index.html

Some assist trophies

Christ, I'm rambling. Long story short you made excellent points Leaf and I vote for Ridley now.

 

[kupo15]

Are we limited to how many new characters we can add? Like to the CSS code?