Are tiers less important than in melee?

[-LzR-]

Actually, just because it's your fault for making a bad choice of characters.

 

[Doc King]

I wanna mention something. We shouldn't get balance and Tier importance mixed up because they both have some differences.

Brawl we have God tier which really is a God character and tourney results prove that.

Top tier, which they are all good.

High tier, which they are all good, but aren't as good as Top tier.

Middle Tier, which is Decent characters. They all look decent (Although it's kind of a large Tier so that make a good reason towards Brawl being less Tier related). Like if you compare Fox to PT, you do have some big notable differences.

And then Finally, the low tiers which are the bad characters. They're all bad. All of them have automatic/hardcounter losses with very few wins (Only wins are usually each other ).

Melee's list isn't that specific. It's just the different tier letters. It does look more accurate than Brawl tiers because of mainly Brawl's huge middle tier.

In this case, Brawl definitely wins this point. However in importance of the characters, Melee definitely wins. I still say that Melee is less tier important than Brawl. The only thing that statement really brought was how the middle tier was big and the characters don't really all equal each other in that tier like in the other tiers.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Actually, just because it's your fault for making a bad choice of characters.

Can you give me a pretty good two character combination that cover each other well, increase character viability and don't get destroyed in a double blind situation?

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

Meta Knight and anyone?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

With MK banned though

 

[-LzR-]

Marth+Falco, IC+GW are solid.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Marth+Falco, IC+GW are solid.

They still get beaten in a double blind situation and all of those characters are tournament viable with MK legal.

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

I don't think it's possible, Marth and IC have almost perfect single coverage, but someone could just do Peach and D3. There is no possible way to perfectly cover against 2 characters.

 

[-LzR-]

That's why you learn even more characters. A truly skilled player should play a lot of characters anyways.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

That's why you learn even more characters. A truly skilled player should play a lot of characters anyways.

It doesn't matter how many characters you main if you end up choosing to wrong one in a double blind situation.

 

[-LzR-]

Then we fix the problem and find another way to pick characters for the 1st round.

 

[BSP]

What I'm getting from Jebus is that being able to be "countered" in pretty much every situation is bad.

Am I right?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

What I'm getting from Jebus is that being able to be "countered" in pretty much every situation is bad.

Am I right?

No, I just don't like the fact that double blind is going to play such a big part in a tournament set. Pretty much anyone that mains more than one character that has a -2 is going to have to double blind character pick.

 

[Doc King]

A couple of other things that I wanna mention is that Melee's tier list isn't as specific as Brawl's tier list. Melee's tier list doesn't even have a top/high/mid/low thing while we do along with tier letters. Also, it seems like not a lot of ppl really get too deep within Tiers in Melee. They just usually list characters who matter in tourney play and ones who don't. Specific placing don't really matter to them. In Brawl, we have like John#'s who's like into this stuff a lot and also the fact that we are actually going way too deep into this discussion and posting something every 5 seconds makes our Tier list look more important. We also have a matchup chart.

So in conclusion, Brawl Tiers are definitely more important than Melee Tiers.

inb4modclosesthread

 

[BSP]

No, I just don't like the fact that double blind is going to play such a big part in a tournament set. Pretty much anyone that mains more than one character that has a -2 is going to have to double blind character pick.

That depends on whether you consider -2 unwinnable. I don't think most people see it as such though.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

All I know is that if I had a chance at getting a better match up by double blinding my opponent, I sure as hell would take it.

 

[-LzR-]

Well tbh I have the double blind pick problem. A couple players around here have the kind of a set against me where the double blind plays a huge part in the set.

 

[Starwave]

Yes. The gap between tiering and skill is far to big in Brawl.

Smash games in general seem fairly balanced and it seems like in all three games you can win with worse characters if you're just that much better than your opponent (or if he doesn't know the matchup ). Brawl does have the problem of having some extremely lopsided matchup that come down to easy infinites though. I would say that at the top tier side of things there are very clear best choices in all three games (Pikachu in 64, Fox/Puff in Melee and MK in Brawl), but in practice you don't see just 1/2 characters getting top placings.

Pardon me sir, but the smash games are pretty poorly balanced in comparison other fighters. Only Melee has a semblance of character balance considering we had top tier players like Gimpyfish, Simna, Taj tearing it up with their respective low tier characters. That just doesn't seem to the case in Brawl where mid / low tier characters will never ever win a major because Brawl rewards character choice over player skill. I'm not even getting into Brawl's ridiculously lopsided matchups (D3 vs DK, Ness vs Marth, etc) (in fact, I doubt they'll ever make it onto a top 8 either) On the flipside, the newly released Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 has some mid / low tier characters making it into top 8, and even winning some majors.

The top 8 of Apex will not feature any characters outside of high tier (and the majority of them will be top tier) I'm willing to put my account on the line.

 

[-LzR-]

I have yet to see a successful fighter with good balance. MvC series has so bad balance they had to make another version and gain more quick buck.

 

[Ghostbone]

You don't need balance to be a good fighter, but it would certainly help.
/I'm surprised this thread isn't locked yet.

Imo, Brawl and Melee's balance are quite similar now that MK's banned (Melee easily wins with him legal), Brawl would edge out over Melee just because there are more characters = more viable selections.

Match-ups matter a lot more in Brawl though.

 

[Flayl]

It's really more about the engine first and balance second. Super Street Fighter 4 (not Arcade Edition) btw was probably the most balanced fighter ever with a large cast. I haven't checked on the patched AE version but that has potential too.

 

[Doc King]

Yes. The gap between tiering and skill is far to big in Brawl.




Pardon me sir, but the smash games are pretty poorly balanced in comparison other fighters. Only Melee has a semblance of character balance considering we had top tier players like Gimpyfish, Simna, Taj tearing it up with their respective low tier characters. That just doesn't seem to the case in Brawl where mid / low tier characters will never ever win a major because Brawl rewards character choice over player skill. I'm not even getting into Brawl's ridiculously lopsided matchups (D3 vs DK, Ness vs Marth, etc) (in fact, I doubt they'll ever make it onto a top 8 either) On the flipside, the newly released Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 has some mid / low tier characters making it into top 8, and even winning some majors.

The top 8 of Apex will not feature any characters outside of high tier (and the majority of them will be top tier) I'm willing to put my account on the line.

I'm pretty sure top 8 of Apex are gonna all have .

It is true that matchups are very lopsided in Brawl like D3 vs. DK vs. Lucas.

I have yet to see a successful fighter with good balance. MvC series has so bad balance they had to make another version and gain more quick buck.

Actually, Marvel vs. Capcom 2 is more balanced than Brawl. Marvel vs. Capcom 2 has Sentinel, Storm, Magneto, and Cable out of 56 characters. Brawl has out of 37. Now this here is the percentage of viability for both games:

MvC2= 7% viability

Brawl = 3% viability

Look at that. MvC2 has over twice as much viability as Brawl does.

You don't need balance to be a good fighter, but it would certainly help.
/I'm surprised this thread isn't locked yet.

Imo, Brawl and Melee's balance are quite similar now that MK's banned (Melee easily wins with him legal), Brawl would edge out over Melee just because there are more characters = more viable selections.

Match-ups matter a lot more in Brawl though.

It's is true that Brawl and Melee are pretty much the same balance with gone and how matchups are really important in Brawl.

 

[Steam]

dock king, metaknight isn't the only viable character in brawl, otherwise a Falco wouldn't have won Apex beating an Olimar in grand finals.

Yes. The gap between tiering and skill is far to big in Brawl.




Pardon me sir, but the smash games are pretty poorly balanced in comparison other fighters. Only Melee has a semblance of character balance considering we had top tier players like Gimpyfish, Simna, Taj tearing it up with their respective low tier characters. That just doesn't seem to the case in Brawl where mid / low tier characters will never ever win a major because Brawl rewards character choice over player skill. I'm not even getting into Brawl's ridiculously lopsided matchups (D3 vs DK, Ness vs Marth, etc) (in fact, I doubt they'll ever make it onto a top 8 either) On the flipside, the newly released Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 has some mid / low tier characters making it into top 8, and even winning some majors.

The top 8 of Apex will not feature any characters outside of high tier (and the majority of them will be top tier) I'm willing to put my account on the line.

in marvel they aren't low tier in the same sense, any low tier can be a great character on the right team. besides... there isn't even an official tier list.

Also at MLG Dallas, two sonics made top 8, and I remember San getting top 8 with ike at... something big, don't remember what. I'm sure there are other examples but I can't think of them off the top of my head.

 

[Doc King]

dock king, metaknight isn't the only viable character in brawl, otherwise a Falco wouldn't have won Apex beating an Olimar in grand finals.



in marvel they aren't low tier in the same sense, any low tier can be a great character on the right team. besides... there isn't even an official tier list.

Also at MLG Dallas, two sonics made top 8, and I remember San getting top 8 with ike at... something big, don't remember what. I'm sure there are other examples but I can't think of them off the top of my head.

basically is the only viable character in Brawl. He makes over half the tourney paper. Also, for a lot of grand final events, you see mk dittos. Why did u think he was banned for?

 

[Steam]

basically is the only viable character in Brawl. He makes over half the tourney paper. Also, for a lot of grand final events, you see mk dittos. Why did u think he was banned for?

if he was the only viable character he'd be the only character you see in top 8 ever basically.

 

[san.]

@ Steam Tied for 9th at last apex and some decent MLG placings but that's it. That was when Ike was considered low tier.

I see mid tiers and some low tiers do well in tournament. Just the other weak, a Ness player named FOW won a tournament with quite a few large names in Socal. There are plenty of isolated cases where mid-low tiers beat some top players, too.

At a large national, you'll have to go through like 4 top players to place well, and most of that is just a skill comparison between the two players more than MUs.

 

[ZMan]

I have yet to see a successful fighter with good balance. MvC series has so bad balance they had to make another version and gain more quick buck.

mvc3 needed a revision badly. i played hella mvc3 when it came out but stopped because how annoying things like phoenix and tron/haggar assists were getting. as for successful fighters with good balance there is super sf4 (NOT ae, but 2012 is looking good so far) and ggxxac is probably the only game i would really call "balanced." you don't play any other fighter besides brawl, do you?

 

[Doc King]

if he was the only viable character he'd be the only character you see in top 8 ever basically.

Well, other characters are only partially viable. Overall, it's mainly about .

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Well, other characters are only partially viable. Overall, it's mainly about .

In any fighting game, it's mainly about the top tier character.

 

[Doc King]

In any fighting game, it's mainly about the top tier character.

Nope.

Melee, you have , , , , , , and . That's 7 characters.

MvC2 you have Sentinel, Storm, Magneto, and Cable. That's 4 characters.

Brawl all you have is . The other characters are only used occasionally. Melee and MvC2 have the same thing, so you really can't complain that Brawl is more balanced than these games.

Edit: I'm watching Chibo's stream and all I see is dittos.

http://www.twitch.tv/vvv_chibosempai

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yes. The gap between tiering and skill is far to big in Brawl.




Pardon me sir, but the smash games are pretty poorly balanced in comparison other fighters. Only Melee has a semblance of character balance considering we had top tier players like Gimpyfish, Simna, Taj tearing it up with their respective low tier characters. That just doesn't seem to the case in Brawl where mid / low tier characters will never ever win a major because Brawl rewards character choice over player skill. I'm not even getting into Brawl's ridiculously lopsided matchups (D3 vs DK, Ness vs Marth, etc) (in fact, I doubt they'll ever make it onto a top 8 either) On the flipside, the newly released Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 has some mid / low tier characters making it into top 8, and even winning some majors.

The top 8 of Apex will not feature any characters outside of high tier (and the majority of them will be top tier) I'm willing to put my account on the line.

Kain with Wolf.
San with Ike.
TKD with Fox.
Fonz with Ganondorf.
FOW with Ness.

Please don't assume things you don't know.

Also please stay away from MK talk or I will lock this.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Nope.

Melee, you have , , , , , , and . That's 7 characters.

MvC2 you have Sentinel, Storm, Magneto, and Cable. That's 4 characters.

Brawl all you have is . The other characters are only used occasionally. Melee and MvC2 have the same thing, so you really can't complain that Brawl is more balanced than these games.

Edit: I'm watching Chibo's stream and all I see is dittos.

http://www.twitch.tv/vvv_chibosempai

But the only reason those characters are up there is because they go even with Fox. Brawl is the same. Characters like Snake, Diddy, Falco and Marth all still win tournaments

 

[infiniteV115]

Melee seems to be more balanced among the top. That is, everyone from Fox-Peach has a pretty much equal chance of winning, with Falcon Doc and ICs being iffy/semi-viable.
Brawl is more balanced as a whole. That is, almost every major tourney will be won by MK/Diddy/Snake/Falco/Oli/ICs/ESAM but mid tiers and low tiers in Brawl have better chances of winning than mids and lows in Melee. And people in high tier and a good part of mid can contend well with top tiers.

I think people on the boards in general exaggerate the significance of MUs.The reason MUs don't matter so much is because they indicate how well 2 characters will do against each other assuming players of equal skill, but a small difference in player skill can make a huge difference in who is more likely to win. eg Dabuz beats Vinnie even though Oli:ICs is a -2 MU, Glutonny beating Leon & Mr.R, ESAM beating Dabuz, Atomsk's DDD getting beaten by Holy's ROB and Will's DK (though to be fair Will:Atomsk happened quite a while ago) etc etc.

TL;DR Melee is more balanced among the top of the cast, Brawl is more balanced across the whole cast and player MU is more important than character MU.

 

[Steam]

Nope.

Melee, you have , , , , , , and . That's 7 characters.

MvC2 you have Sentinel, Storm, Magneto, and Cable. That's 4 characters.

Brawl all you have is . The other characters are only used occasionally. Melee and MvC2 have the same thing, so you really can't complain that Brawl is more balanced than these games.

Edit: I'm watching Chibo's stream and all I see is dittos.

http://www.twitch.tv/vvv_chibosempai

Diddy/Snake/Falco are much more viable in brawl than Falcon, marth, and peach are in melee. just saying.

 

[Doc King]

But the only reason those characters are up there is because they go even with Fox. Brawl is the same. Characters like Snake, Diddy, Falco and Marth all still win tournaments

Not , , and

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Not , , and

They might have a slight disadvantage against fox, but they don't lose to him completely, kind of like Olimar.

 

[Zankoku]

I feel like Marth in Melee has the same frequency in upper level brackets as a mid tier in Brawl. Poor Marth.

 

[Steam]

I feel like Marth in Melee has the same frequency in upper level brackets as a mid tier in Brawl. Poor Marth.

just like brawl marth. OH DID I JUST SAY THAT OUT LOUD???

@doc king- those characters don't solo win nationals or at least make it extremely far with high frequency. either way to say snake/diddy/falco aren't viable even with MK legal is simply moronic seeing as they frequently make it deep into the brackets of nationals and have wins under their belt. see: ally winning anything, GNES winning MLG Dallas, DEHF winning the last Apex.

 

[Browny]

just like brawl marth. OH DID I JUST SAY THAT OUT LOUD???

Its funny coz its true.

 

[Zankoku]

just like brawl marth. OH DID I JUST SAY THAT OUT LOUD???

Well, every character in Brawl except for Meta Knight is only used occasionally, right? So it all makes sense.