Are tiers less important than in melee?

[Zankoku]

Chu used to use Pikachu and Young Link against Peach because Ice Climbers vs Peach is a stupidly uphill match-up for Ice Climbers. As far as I know he goes all ICs now though.

Climbers lose to Peach, Falco losses to Pika and climbers, and D3 losses to Falco, Oli, and climbers. They all have bad matchups unlike mk and they will have some difficult times with certain matchups unlike mk who doesn't have to worry about ****.

Uhh, bad match-ups aren't really the killing factor for pocket characters because you pull them out to win a match-up. You don't revenge kill Heatrans with Scizors, but that doesn't make Scizor irrelevant. Similarly, you don't pick Falco against a Pikachu, but he's still damn good against a lot of other characters.

 

[Doc King]

People usually use pocket characters to counter other characters on CP stages. If you beat a player game one, you can always just hard counter them game three if it ends up going to game three.

lol. Falco and Climbers aren't even good on counterpick stages.

people who think they can just play DDD without any practice and expect to beat a veteran DK, or play pika to beat falco, DK to beat ness/lucas, is extremely mistaken.

True. I mean I hate when ppl say oh D3 is a cheap *** character and you can just use him to chaingrab on cps. These days, you have to read very well to get your good reward with D3. I often think that Defino is an overrated cp these days because ppl will never approach you.

I also got wrecked by a Lucas in an online tournament when I was DK and it was not pretty.

YL is generally considered to be good vs any floaty and kind of awful against fast-fallers.

People are starting to think that Yoshi is a good character. Apparently, he's one of the most technically difficult characters in the game. Strong_Bad, am I right in saying that?

That's kind of true with YL.

If you are referring to technical stuff. Then Yoshi will have a hell of a hard time with because of the dash dance pivot grab infinite he has on Yoshi.

 

[Marc]

I am going to close this topic if it turns into another MK debate.

Furthermore, I would argue that you're not going to straight up counter Diddy, Marth, ICs etc either. I guess the American stage list can be tough for at least ICs sometimes, but strictly looking at characters a -1 matchup is not a counter and you aren't going to pocket secondary your way through good mains. It's also not like everyone has every character at their disposal, while every time this comes up people tend to assume everyone just pocket secondaries ICs/Dedede/Pikachu/Falco and [insert mid tier character with a randomly good matchup against something].

I for one simply wouldn't like a game where even if you pick a supposedly good character everything comes down to game 1 or character choice in general. This is not the case for Brawl with or without MK as long as you pick from a limited pool and that's only natural.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

lol. Falco and Climbers aren't even good on counterpick stages.

FD

10FDs

 

[John12346]

Yeah, but that's kind of stupid considering that the first game was basically left to chance (double blind character pick)

Assessing your opponent's playstyle, character usage, and thoughts about what you're going to do during the game to make the best possible matchup in your favor isn't strategy? What

Also, if memory serves, stage striking will strike the stages down to the most neutral stage in most cases, balancing out most matchups regardless.

And once again, this "problem" still exists with MK legal. What problems arise as a result of MK being banned?

Edit:

I am going to close this topic if it turns into another MK debate.

Alright, I'll shut up now.

 

[Steam]

Assessing your opponent's playstyle, character usage, and thoughts about what you're going to do during the game to make the best possible matchup in your favor isn't strategy? What

Also, if memory serves, stage striking will strike the stages down to the most neutral stage in most cases, balancing out most matchups regardless.

And once again, this "problem" still exists with MK legal. What problems arise as a result of MK being banned?

nothing's left to chance, MK always wins

 

[Doc King]

FD

10FDs

Final Destination is a neutral, not a counterpick.

I would suggest to stop posting.

 

[Juushichi]

You're kinda dumb for not knowing about who people play by the time you see them in bracket. You can also... you know. Play and win your bad MU's.

 

[-LzR-]

Final Destination is a neutral, not a counterpick.

I would suggest to stop posting.

Right back at ya.

 

[Doc King]

Right back at ya.

lol. I've never said FD was a counterpick stage. Also, ppl can just ban FD is they don't wanna go there against a Falco or the Climbers.

I've actually been making good post on this forum. You just can't accept that Melee is the more balanced and less tier related game. Do the math!

32>3

32 = Melee viability

3 = Brawl viability

Simple stuff man.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Assessing your opponent's playstyle, character usage, and thoughts about what you're going to do during the game to make the best possible matchup in your favor isn't strategy? What

Also, if memory serves, stage striking will strike the stages down to the most neutral stage in most cases, balancing out most matchups regardless.

And once again, this "problem" still exists with MK legal. What problems arise as a result of MK being banned?

That's not even how it works. Most of the time, you aren't even going to know who your opponent is going to choose.

MK removes most of these problem characters just by simply being there. Players can pick up characters like wolf or Marth because characters that mess these guys up are rare in this metagame.

 

[-LzR-]

Doc, I mean't you were the dumb one for saying FD is a "neutral".

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Final Destination is a neutral, not a counterpick.

I would suggest to stop posting.

Who said you couldn't counter pick a neutral? Also, how are you supposed to ban a stage that you don't know is even going to get used against you?

 

[Conviction]

So you're saying goes even with ?

If one clone is better than another than that clone will win.

Are you stupid or something?

first off my post was a joke, second no you dummy two perfect clones will always be even. I never mentioned roy or marth anywhere in my post. Stick to what you do best and rant on about DDD

 

[Doc King]

Doc, I mean't you were the dumb one for saying FD is a "neutral".

It is a neutral stage!

Read the unity ruleset.

 

[-LzR-]

Unity ruleset sucks.

 

[Conviction]

Actually Lzr he is wrong again.

FD is actually called a Starter not a neutral.

Stage List

Starters | Counterpicks
Battlefield|Battleship Halberd
Castle Siege|Brinstar
Final Destination|Delfino Plaza
Lylat Cruise|Pokémon Stadium 2
Pokemon Stadium 1|Rainbow Cruise
Smashville|Frigate Orpheon
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)|

.

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

It's Neutral, but there are many polarizing matchups on it. Other stages like smashville and battlefield are a bit more even. The length and shape under the stage can destroy some games (Ganon, Marth, Mario, D3, all the other people who get stuck under the stage as well) Having nothing to jump to can severely cripple some games. FD is neutral, but not by much.

 

[Conviction]

If a stage is truly neutral it ideally will not have any polazoring attributes to it, in other words it wouldn't effect a match-up at all.

There is really isn't a neutral stage in brawl at all because Smash as a game's properties. PvPvS and some character will always benefit from the stage while others either benefit as well, stay neutralized, or are at a disadvantage.

My closest bet to a neutral stage in Brawl would be PS2 or PS1.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

It is a neutral stage!

Read the unity ruleset.

Who said you couldn't counter pick a neutral?

 

[Doc King]

Who said you couldn't counter pick a neutral? Also, how are you supposed to ban a stage that you don't know is even going to get used against you?

No one. You can cp a starter stage. I'm pretty sure a person who's at top level play will pick the proper stage to ban. Jebus, your topics get way off, I don't even know what the argument is anymore. lol.

Are you stupid or something?

first off my post was a joke, second no you dummy two perfect clones will always be even. I never mentioned roy or marth anywhere in my post. Stick to what you do best and rant on about DDD

1. If ur joking then post something like or jk.

2. You said clones not perfect clones. I was mentioning vs. as a good example of your post being false.

Why should I talk about ? He's not game breaking like is.

Unity ruleset sucks.

Well, I dk what you use for a ruleset, you probably have something different so we should just stop talking about this.

Actually Lzr he is wrong again.

FD is actually called a Starter not a neutral.



we out

Neutral = Starter

 

[Conviction]

Read above post.

Neutral and Starter don't have the same defintion. Derp

 

[BSP]

Iblis is right. There's no "neutral" stage in the game.

Every aspect of a stage, or lack of them in FD's case, affects the MU in some way

 

[-LzR-]

Whoever still thinks FD is anything close to "neutral" is ********.

 

[Doc King]

Read above post.

Neutral and Starter don't have the same defintion. Derp

Well, I meant neutral as in starter. Sorry for using the wrong word, my mistake. Why are you *****ing over something stupid? You probably should've known I meant a starter when I said neutral.

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

Well, in Brawl they are the same definition. Why are you *****ing over something stupid? You probably should've known I meant a starter when I said neutral.

Hmm.. this sounds familiar, making a big deal about a very small detail..

 

[Conviction]

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU Ninja'd by Meow

 

[SaveMeJebus]

No one. You can cp a starter stage. I'm pretty sure a person who's at top level play will pick the proper stage to ban. Jebus, your topics get way off, I don't even know what the argument is anymore. lol.

You are the one that brought up FD being a neutral (which has nothing to do with what we are talking about).

 

[-LzR-]

It's been like forever since people stopped using term neutral for stages available for game 1.

 

[John12346]

That's not even how it works. Most of the time, you aren't even going to know who your opponent is going to choose.

Easy way to find out is to watch your opponent play out a match, ask around for character usage, do some reconnaissance, hang around in the Regional Zones area of SWF, etc. Most people already have a general idea of all the characters their opponents use, too, just due to experience.

And even if all of that doesn't work, stage striking will still even out a lot of disproportionate matchups.

MK removes most of these problem characters just by simply being there. Players can pick up characters like wolf or Marth because characters that mess these guys up are rare in this metagame.

Response to the entire quote: Jebus, if you truly believe what you're saying here, then you're saying that, since you have a larger chance to get countered, large character variety is bad.

I'm pretty sure it's been determined early on that larger character variety is, y'know, GOOD.

Response to the cyan text:

 

[BSP]

For the actual topic, MK or not, lots of characters that aren't in low tier have placed decently at large tournament at some point in time in brawl's lifespan. I don't think the game has many characters where you really just can't win with. A few need a second for maybe one -3 MU, but aside from that, I think the balance is pretty good.

 

[Doc King]

You are the one that brought up FD being a neutral (which has nothing to do with what we are talking about).

It actually has to do about what we are talking about (In a small way). You brought up D3, Climbers, and Falco being the next pocket mk's and then brought up counterpicking (Which is not about pocketing characters). And then you bring up FD being a cp and I was just correcting you by saying it's a starter.

So you were the one that brought this discussion way off.

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

They were actually trying to say you don't have to counterpick a counterpick stage, you can counterpick starters, they weren't saying FD is a counterpick, just a great IC stage.

 

[Doc King]

It is a good climbers stage. I thought they were saying FD was a cp stage.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Easy way to find out is to watch your opponent play out a match, ask around for character usage, do some reconnaissance, hang around in the Regional Zones area of SWF, etc. Most people already have a general idea of all the characters their opponents use, too, just due to experience.

And even if all of that doesn't work, stage striking will still even out a lot of disproportionate matchups.

Lets say both of you guys know each others characters. You main Falco/Wario and your opponent mains DDD/Pikachu. What are you supposed to do?

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

Lets say both of you guys know each others characters. You main Falco/Wario and your opponent mains DDD/Pikachu. What are you supposed to do?

Cry in the corner

 

[Conviction]

Learn another that actually covers your mains weaknesses.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Learn another that actually covers your mains weaknesses.

But none of the character combinations I mentioned has and actual advantage over the other.

 

[-LzR-]

That's why you suck and you should learn a new character.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

That's why you suck and you should learn a new character.

Why? because you guys banned a character that shouldn't have been banned?