Arcade Legacy Presents: ARMAGEDDON - March 23rd, 2013 - Cincinnati, OH

[MegaRobMan]

It's ****ing hilarious real life Metaknight mains can't enter a MK legal tournament because you have to not only be really good, but be NATIONALLY active to attend a tournament, and this tournament is in the midwest.

10/10

Don't worry, mid-card MK mains, you can enter the MK banned tournament!

Edit: If Ish comes I might come, and I might even try and show off by qualifying for the MK legal tournament.

 

[GDX]

I'm not going but I just wanted to comment that you put the date in 2012 for the smash calender. So it shows up in the upcoming tourney section at the top left now, listed before tourneys that actually happen before it.

 

[Player-1]

^^^^


Chi and his crazy advertising tactics

 

[clowsui]

It's ****ing hilarious real life Metaknight mains can't enter a MK legal tournament because you have to not only be really good, but be NATIONALLY active to attend a tournament, and this tournament is in the midwest.

10/10

Don't worry, mid-card MK mains, you can enter the MK banned tournament!

Edit: If Ish comes I might come, and I might even try and show off by qualifying for the MK legal tournament.

mid level MKs are largely boring to fight and "infest" results

top level MKs might be equally boring to fight but often possess what the community deems to be "legitimate skill"

mid level MKs are not fun for spectators

top level MKs are (usually) fun for spectators

sooooo let's cut out the middle man bull****.

 

[KassandraNova]

mid level MKs are largely boring to fight and "infest" results

mid level MKs are not fun for spectators

Ouch. My feelings...they're hurt.

 

[clowsui]

i said largely ;o

 

[KassandraNova]

i said largely ;o

Hopefully when me and Kelly come back, we can host smashfests again or something? :0

Have you guys been doing anything like that here other than ranbats?

 

[Jimmyfosho]

mid level MKs are largely boring to fight and "infest" results

top level MKs might be equally boring to fight but often possess what the community deems to be "legitimate skill"

mid level MKs are not fun for spectators

top level MKs are (usually) fun for spectators

sooooo let's cut out the middle man bull****.

same logic could be said for any character except for the "infest results". No mid/low level players period.

 

[clowsui]

no smashfests really @ kass. we've just kinda been chillin'.

@fosho i dunno i think there are plenty of hype sets between many different mid/low level players. but as soon as metaknight becomes involved it becomes a very different story.

i'm mostly doing this as an experiment. even though i believe that MK ban is a logically superior choice, i understand the rationale for hosting MK legal and like hosting both formats. logistically speaking, i can't run 6 events in two days (MK ban pools/MK ban bracket/MK legal pools/MK legal bracket/MK ban doubles/MK ban singles) and people do not want to play that much smash/brawl. by trying out a double format style event in this way, i manage to keep everyone that would normally come due to MK ban while offering a way for people who would otherwise miss out on a very hype event to come (and also to try their hand at participating in a very different type of event!).


you might say that this compromise doesn't really address the issue at heart, and i can't offer a complete refutation of that. but i think this way of doing things will bear some unexpected fruit. let's see how it turns out

 

[Rabbi Nevins]

IMO this is a terrible idea. Either be pro ban or not. Being on the edge like this isnt fair to anyone. What is this idea achieving? The only thing youre doing is hoping that a top level mk will all of a sudden decide to go, but they wont. Why would they travel just to go to a tournament that is capped? i.e. little prize money.

Youre trying to raise attendance by this but its not going to do anything.

"i manage to keep everyone that would normally come due to MK ban while offering a way for people who would otherwise miss out on a very hype event to come."

im still missing out. And im pretty sure most people who would travel will be. Youre basically only targeting good east coast mks who arent going to come to this either way.

im not starting a ban mk argument, im just saying you need to choose yes or no. Not be flip flopping. Id like to come to a tourney of yours now that im starting to play again, but youre making that difficult. MK really isnt that big of a problem in the midwest (source: ps5 results)

 

[TheKiest]

I like experiments. Keep at em!

 

[MegaRobMan]

My real problem is that you are making people QUALIFY for an MK tournament. And the real problem with that is that the major qualifier for a Midwest tournament is in New Jersey.

That's stupid. Your target audience is not going to be there for this, and the people who place well at Apex are probably still not going to enter this tournament because they most of the entrants that are going to do well are going to be from the east coast or overseas.

WHO, from the midwest, is going to make top 64 at Apex? Kain, MJG, Delux, Zinoto, Shugo (who according to my sources doesn't live in the MW anymore) and that's about it.

So, 5 entrants, none of which main MK.

Then you get Seagull and a few other guys from the east who are interested, so like...idk, 8 players from another region, most of them who don't main MK.

Then, you are going to have, what, 3 qualifiers?

One in KS I assume that Lux will host. Results-
#1-Texas
#2-DeLux
#3-Kain
#4-MJG
#5-Texas
#5-Fino (who lives in Texas)

So the same 3 dudes from the MW who got top 64 at apex qualify. None of which main MK.

Then you have another qualifier, lets say in MI that Tech hosts

#1-Ally
#2-Kain
#3-Zinoto
#4-L-cancel
#5-Seagull Man
#5-DeLux

Same guys...none main MK.

Then, I'd assume that there would be a qualifier in OH, maybe you'd throw it?

#1-Ally
#2-Shugo
#3-MJG
#4-Reflex
#5-Kain
#5-Kel (who doesn't main MK, remember?)

So, you have a 13 man tournament with no MK mains who qualified for an MK legal tournament.

You are killing your midwest scene by doing this whole idea.

Also the whole banning MK thing is for cowards.

I mean, have any of you played smash 64? Pikachu is more broken than MK

Have you played Melee? Fox is way more "broken" than MK, don't give me matchup charts, No one is even with Fox, and if you want to get into "Marth" and "Stage choice" I'd argue "Ice Climbers" and "Stage choice", which is hilarious, since MK is even with Pika and that's not what I am arguing. Don't give me "Fox takes skill", that's a slap to the face of M2K, Nairo and other high tier MK mains who have learned to abuse the lameness that MK is into international domination.

 

[clowsui]

there's a lot of things I want to say about the idea but to be honest I was probably being too optimistic. I'll explain everything when I have time, and if people really do not like it then I'll just take it out. For now I'll say a few things:

1. My intent on having a limited MK legal bracket was also an attempt to test out the idea of a "high rollers" tournament a la Curleh Mustache, where the best of the best are invited to compete. This component of the idea may be unviable due to the lack of spectatorship (not a word) in the Smash community.

2. My intent with the qualifiers wasn't necessarily to exclude the largest number of people possible. I was going to pick qualifiers that were likely to have a large number of attendees and therefore attract a lot of skilled candidates to the top 5. Selecting APEX as a selection method was a "quick and dirty" way to assure that, if January through March was a dead period for tournies everywhere that a decent number of people could qualify. But this selection method may be flawed.

3. Banning MK is part of my brand as a TO and, imo, a significant (not very large maybe, but certainly significant) contribution to the success of VENGEANCE and RETRIBUTION. How do you suggest I make up for this deficit?

If you say "good TO'ing", I'll have you ejected from the thread on account of being a non-contributory, persistent wastrel whose only purpose is to derail threads.

On that note, I don't want to have an MK discussion here. So don't get my thread closed. It's a miracle that you managed to post seriously for once, but this isn't the place for that discussion.

Please note that, as always, I'm open to change on many aspects.

 

[DeLux]

I main MK now Rob

Fat Bat Legends

I am only attending this tournament because it's MK banned which appeals to my intellectual side while still being able to play my main.

 

[MegaRobMan]

But this selection method may be flawed.

3. Banning MK is part of my brand as a TO and, imo, a significant (not very large maybe, but certainly significant) contribution to the success of VENGEANCE and RETRIBUTION. How do you suggest I make up for this deficit?

If you say "good TO'ing", I'll have you ejected from the thread on account of being a non-contributory, persistent wastrel whose only purpose is to derail threads.

It's a miracle that you managed to post seriously for once, but this isn't the place for that discussion.

Can we have a qualifier in Nebraska? It's closer to SD and CO than other places that are kinda part of the MW:W. KS is closer to a bunch of Southern stuff so that's silly to have one there.

Edit: Also it would be ****ing hilarious to force people to travel to Nebraska.

I doubt that you banning MK had anything really to do with the major success of your tournament outside of people being like "OMG if MK isn't banned I'm not coming!" which was/is the case. I think most of it is the fact that you are "in" with a lot of the "cool" players who will get their "people" to "come" to your "tournament". Most people who went to that event would have gone anyway because of this fact. Iirc you were in the URC and therefore you have a reputation for being a quality TO as it was anyway.

But good TOing is always the solution.

Also most of my posts are serious, but I like to throw in jokes, and I guess some people can't accept shades of grey in their internet forum discussions so for the 10-90% trolling/joking portion of the post completely ruins the other 90-10% of the post where I am always right about everything.

I main MK now Rob

Fat Bat Legends

That's too bad, we literally just banned MK in Nebraska as I read that post.

 

[DeLux]

I am overwhelmingly hyped to see the best of the best duke it out before the grind of having played a billion matches has set in.
Some of us hate playing a billion pools matches only to be dead tired for the matches that really matter.

I mean, if you're afraid of being left out of the invitational because you don't qualify, that's probably more on your own self perception of your skill level. You ought to just win your spot in. The character MK doesn't matter, I'd be hyped about an invitational bracket if it was like Mid Tiers or something weird.

No offense, but coming in the top 5 at a midwest tournament isn't that hard. I used to do that **** while dropping every CG in sight while forfeiting a game per set. If you get left out, it's not going to be because of MK, it's going to be because you weren't good enough. Leaving MK means that someone that mains MK that might come in top 5 in say Michigan (looking at you Gio) have something to show for their efforts. It would make no sense to have it MK banned so that if that player qualified for the event, they'd be forced to use a different character. The whole MK usage thing has people in a prisoner's dilemma in that regard. So Chi HAS to make the invitiational Mk legal.

However, the MK banned part makes sense because the MK Banned Rulesset with two stage bans is definitively more competitive than an MK legal one.

 

[MegaRobMan]

Question.

Would the qualifying events be MK legal?

I mean, if you're afraid of being left out of the invitational because you don't qualify, that's probably more on your own self perception of your skill level. You ought to just win your spot in. The character MK doesn't matter, I'd be hyped about an invitational bracket if it was like Mid Tiers or something weird.

Believe it or not it has more with me trying to defend the bad MK mains than my own skills. Obviously since I'm a top 5 wolf and #1 in my own state I automatically qualify for this event....................

Seriously, the reason I wouldn't qualify is that I'm not active and I don't play brawl. The last 4 events I have entered were in KY, NC, IL and KS, and the event before it was a free round robin local I barely won. statistically is a +5 match-up. Some bad Wolf from Nebraska being one of the only people to have beat a D3 in tournament, multiple times :0

I like the idea of an invite event, but don't make THAT the MK legal event.

When I ininitally put up the KS results "Texas" at #1 was actually MRM

Honestly I'm not sure if I'm trolling or not anymore.

 

[DeLux]

They should be whatever best determines who the tournaments top 5 best players are, because the tournament wants the best regardless of character.

If I ran a qualifier, I would run it as MK Banned when for the purposes of consistency it would compare to an MK legal tournament where nobody used metaknight.

Question.

Would the qualifying events be MK legal?



Believe it or not it has more with me trying to defend the bad MK mains than my own skills. Obviously since I'm a top 5 wolf and #1 in my own state I automatically qualify for this event....................

Seriously, the reason I wouldn't qualify is that I'm not active and I don't play brawl. The last 4 events I have entered were in KY, NC, IL and KS, and the event before it was a free round robin local I barely won.

I like the idea of an invite event, but don't make THAT the MK legal event.

So then what this is really about is making the non-invitational event MK legal :\

 

[MegaRobMan]

Assuming quality competition

How is Domo/M2K going to qualify for a MK legal event

if all of the qualifiers are MK banned???????????????????

Bad comparison-It's like having an invite soccer tournament but having people play basketball to qualify for it.

Good comparison-It's like having a pepperoni pizza taste competition and the qualifier is how good your Hamburger pizza is.

"Hey, MK mains from the midwest?

Want to enter a big, important tournament where your main is legal?

All you have to do is get top 5 at an event where your character is banned!

Come, waste your money and your time trying to qualify for a fun event while trying to play your 11 month old Olimar with little quality tournament experience!"

So much to do at Cartmanland, but you can't come! Especially Stan and Kyle.

 

[DeLux]

Domo would top 5 in KS, with or without MK because he's a good player

You're the TO for nebraska. If you feel like your elite MK main in your area won't make it without his main, then host MK legal
M2K's Falco/DDD would top 5 in the MW

I can't think of a single high level MK that would remotely possibly be excluded from this that isn't Domo, who would top 5 in KS anyways

 

[MegaRobMan]

Brawl Singles Bracket

1: Denti ($213)
2: Dakpo ($106)
3: DeLux ($57)
4: Kain ($35)
5: Fino
5: MJG
7: JJ Rockets
7: Shadow1pj
9: Zeton
9: Bpow
9: Mr. Doom
9: Domo

[collapse=Melee Doubles Bracket]

[/collapse]
Melee Singles
24 entrants, $10 entry.

1: JBM ($144)
2: Jace ($72)
3: MegaRobMan ($24)

Would he now?

 

[DeLux]

The last KS only tournament, Domo came in 2nd over me

If you want to hold against him for a regional tournament that's fine. But if you can say you qualify for winning in nebraska, then he can more than qualify for coming in top 5 in KS only tournaments

 

[MegaRobMan]

Are you saying that the qualifying events would be LOCALS?????????????

Lux, my saying I would qualify anyway because I am whatever I am was a joke, as the rules are you have to play your way in to win, it doesn't say PR'd players are eligible.

 

[DeLux]

We haven't even determined what tournaments are qualifiers, how am I supposed to know if they'll be local level or more?

If the calendar is any indication, there aren't any major regionals in the MW until this one so I'm not sure how else we fill the bracket.

I'd even go as far as limiting it from top 5 (since that means six players) to Top 4 and just having a smaller invitational bracket



Note: should stop sayng "we". I'm not on staff for this event. Just a 3rd party that is excited for this

 

[MegaRobMan]

Lux, for someone smart and usually forward thinking I"m surprised you "don't know" if they will be locals or not. Why would Chi have a qualifier for his OH regional at a KS local where you average less people than a Nebraska local (thank you Iowa smash and Nebraska melee for making this statement true).

The only "local" that would work would be Jokers because his usually get KS/MO/NE and often MN.

My goal isn't to kill the hype for this, just to point out how lame the structure is.

I've met Chi and outside of him badmouthing my "smoking" habits without even meeting me to people I've never met before, I have no problem with him and even hung out with him and beat his Marth with my Marth.

I support big tournaments that grow the scene, blah blah blah go cubs go, +30 more words, hope this does well.

But smh @ wording and thesis of the side event. And at the idea of a MK banned event determining anything in a MK legal tournament.

 

[DeLux]

The difference is the KS players that matter travel and are decent. The Nebraska brawl players don't and are bad. 3 out of the top 6 are the KC 3 before one moved at the last KS regional. We don't have the same number of bad players which is fine since we play for the pride anyways. That number doesn't matter though since it's about the best players, not the number of worst. If you want to compare bests, the highest ELO'd player in Nebraska comes in around 1600 range. KS has 7 players in that range.

You keep changing arguments Rob. First you're defender of the mid to low level MKs, which I pointed out should be an issue with the main bracket, not the invitational. Now you're trying to say that some high level MK is going to be left out because someone is running MK Banned, which we showed that there probably isn't going to be an MK left out in the MW. So an MK banned or legal qualifier DOES NOT MATTER


I think the logistics of filling an invitational bracket is a criticism that Chi should address since he's the only one with that answer at the moment. Regardless, this event is going to be the most hype thing to watch since hearing Apex round 2 pools being called

 

[MegaRobMan]

First part-KS is better than Nebraska, yes. That doesn't have much to do with anything, it's still a small sample of players for a regional. You are completely inflating the amount of players that would qualify from your area.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure if you were like "OMG, this is a qualifier for Chi's event" a lot more people would show up I assume, but lol @ non-jokers monthly level of participation for locals in the KS/IA/MO/NE region.

Second part-My argument is evolving, there is no stepping back on anything. Poor lowly MK mains, and it sucks for the really good MK mains if they are going to be forced into entering a tournament where they can't use their main to qualify for an event where they can use their mains. I don't use this word often, but ********.

Third part-I agree.

Edit: JMAN the sonic main, is Elo'd higher than I am. Your argument is flawed from the start, especially since he hasn't top 3'd in Nebraska ever.

Lets pretend we are talking specifically about an area that does matter, as in not Nebraska. Where I am from does not change the arguments I am making in the least bit. If I was from NY but still bad my argument would be equally as valid.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

This argument is going nowhere fast.

 

[DeLux]

How can I inflate how many would qualify when it would be only 1-5 people based on what we know of the event >_>

And the KC 3 have been staples of the top 8 of all the MW regional tournaments for like a year and a half

I still haven't figured out which MK Main isn't going to make it due to an MK banned qualifier (where you should be arguing the rules in that specific tournament thread and not this one)

 

[MegaRobMan]

Lux I don't get how you don't get what I am saying.

You inflate your own numbers by throwing a local where no one from OOS shows up and you take your top 5 players and put them in an event.

"Revival" 11/25/12

Singles:
Rulesset: KC Brawl Rulesset (MK banned, PS2/Frigate Legal)
1: MJG ($18)
2: DeLux ($14)
3: Fragger ($10)
4: T22
5: Rev
5: Blame
7: JB4

What a murders row.

 

[clowsui]

For me to choose a tournament like that would be asinine and self-defeating to the thesis of the invitational bracket, if you're going to make such arguments I'd like to not be assumed as a fool rofl

 

[MegaRobMan]

Good work Clow coming in and getting at the weakest portion of my troll portion of my argument.

Better get working on those qualifiers, and if they are MK banned or MK legal or not (hint they should be MK legal.)

 

[DeLux]

Ok Rob, go ahead and take the results from the tournament where 5 out of the top 8 that would come to a KS qualifer aren't there

Classy


Just let the TO's decide for themselves the qualifier

 

[MegaRobMan]

You said the last KS tournament.

 

[DeLux]

I wasn't aware Clowsui retroactively made that local a qualifier
If he can do that, he might as well make Hype2 a Qualifier or the local where top 5 was like 1. MJG 2. Domo 3. DeLux 4. Mr. Doom 5. Bonds

But that defeats the purpose of generating hype by holding an announced qualifier >_>

 

[MegaRobMan]

You are aware that saying that deflates any semblance of an argument you had, right?

Twisting your own words and mine doesn't work for people who can actually read and comprehend it.

lol I didn't know he retroactively made that one count when I said that others would count over it and I was arguing hypothetical stuff the entire time and now that it isn't working to my advantage I'm going to pretend real life situations are only what matters as opposed to earlier when I was also arguing hypothetical stuff and only discuss things in the future to move this ahead so I don't lose anymore ground.-DeLux.

Also I'm looking for the last KS local results where Domo beat you and I can't find them.

Making points I already made and making them your own is impressive.

Alright, back to serious mode.

My point was that at a serious event with even competition, Domo and other good MK mains would not make it out if the qualifier was MK banned, and I proved that by using previous results.

 

[DeLux]

What are you even talking about lol

If you asked me if a KS local should be taken into consideration over a Nebraksa one, I'd say yes every time. Would the last KC only local series be the ideal candidate? No they wouldn't. If I were to host a qualifier, I'd do everything I could to make sure it's a KS tournament and not just a KC one. The last time that happened where it was just KS and not Domo having to deal with IL and TX, Domo took 2nd. So it's not like he wouldn't top 5 if we put together the 20 some odd person tournament a full KS tournament would look like. The crux of the matter is, Kansas City is not all of Kansas.

 

[MegaRobMan]

Actually, you are putting words in my mouth, I brought up locals to say they should not count and then you went on some completely unrelated post that derailed my thought process.

And then the last paragraph you are saying what I said but putting your own spin on it.

 

[DeLux]

No, I was debunking the idea that the qualifier must be the level of a regional tournament that was 6 months in planning which is the example you used

I don't know what the qualifier is going to be, that's not my job. But I know the KS players far better than you, and if it were a KS tournament, I would be surprised if Domo did not top 5 even without MK.

After talking it over with Chi, I'm personally in favor of a set number of play in spots along with at-large bids to fill out the rest of the bracket that way we don't have to deal with the hypotheticals

 

[sneakytako]

Lol omg first ever gate keeping in smash? Kansas taking nebraska's spots?

Good work Chi.

But in all seriousness I think what's missing is incentive for players to qualify for the MK legal tourny. I mean why would you go out of your way to qualify for a (hard) 20 man tournament when there's an 80 man tournament at the same place? I think you guys should think of a pot bonus for the MK legal tourny, maybe pull from each of the qualifiers for a pot bonus at the end.