[Apr 19, 2014] No Johns Monthly! April 19th!! Project M ! (Nanuet, NY)

[Alex Strife]

Brian if you need me to I'll pick you up!

 

[Teczer0]

Pools would be awesome even if it's just for seeding purposes =].

 

[Sol]

im confirmed

-T.Webb (Dark Salt)

 

[NewJerusalem]

Pools would be awesome even if it's just for seeding purposes =].

I know this is off topic but is that Trucy?

 

[Nintendude]

I skimmed this and just want to say that I highly support a broader payout range and pools.

Higher payout range really drives the mid-level players especially. There was a period where I was constantly placing in the 9th - 17th range and it was kind of discouraging knowing that I'd have to actually defeat Jesus or Aziz (which for a mid-level player is kind of out of reach) to reduce the hole in my wallet. If top-5 (or top-4 for smaller turnouts) is paid out then it establishes more competition among the mid-level players which definitely improves the overall skill level of the region.

Pools are so critical. Not only do they help make the seeding unbiased, but they promote camaraderie and friendship. This is SO IMPORTANT for local communities to grow. It's intimidating being a newcomer at this game and sucking and it's easy to feel like a reject, not knowing anyone. When you have pools you not only actually get your money's worth but you also get an opportunity to get to know 4-5 other people a lot better than you typically would. It just really encourages new people to keep coming back. Over the years I've seen all sorts of one-timers and if we managed to retain these people we'd have a much stronger community here in Tristate.

Finally, I'd really like to see more Tristate participation in the new player / ratings database:
http://www.ssbpd.com/

I know that No Johns tio files tend to get lost for some reason, but this has to change. Start saving that **** and uploading it to this database. It's important for the Smash community as a whole.

 

[Alukard]

Its not that they get lost ... I just deleted them after i uploaded results ... Sumtimes the ****ty program crashes as well ... Tio is booty


Also tec0 u lost to samus ... Again looool somehow u always do ;D

 

[zachyjcosta]

Ya, I created one for EC.

If you guys want in feel free to join: https://www.facebook.com/groups/269052529786948/

hey I send a request, looks good the group, I live in the fairfield, NJ area....no idea if any other smashers live close? Could use some good practice.

I skimmed this and just want to say that I highly support a broader payout range and pools.

Higher payout range really drives the mid-level players especially. There was a period where I was constantly placing in the 9th - 17th range and it was kind of discouraging knowing that I'd have to actually defeat Jesus or Aziz (which for a mid-level player is kind of out of reach) to reduce the hole in my wallet. If top-5 (or top-4 for smaller turnouts) is paid out then it establishes more competition among the mid-level players which definitely improves the overall skill level of the region.

Pools are so critical. Not only do they help make the seeding unbiased, but they promote camaraderie and friendship. This is SO IMPORTANT for local communities to grow. It's intimidating being a newcomer at this game and sucking and it's easy to feel like a reject, not knowing anyone. When you have pools you not only actually get your money's worth but you also get an opportunity to get to know 4-5 other people a lot better than you typically would. It just really encourages new people to keep coming back. Over the years I've seen all sorts of one-timers and if we managed to retain these people we'd have a much stronger community here in Tristate.

Finally, I'd really like to see more Tristate participation in the new player / ratings database:
http://www.ssbpd.com/

I know that No Johns tio files tend to get lost for some reason, but this has to change. Start saving that **** and uploading it to this database. It's important for the Smash community as a whole.

I agree, I've only been to a couple no johns, and I would love to try pools. Sadly this tourney I ended up vs mafia in the 1st round and then eggm would be next if I won. Pools I think would be good, at least for me, gives me a chance to vs 5 ppl and hopefully advance.

Alu, you should do pools, see how that goes.

 

[Max?]

Tristate will never be a part of the ssbpd project. Prepare to be grossly underrated by the smash community for all time.

 

[Eggm]

ok so i'm all for what the community wants ... seriously guys this is something that is supposed to get a ton of people coming and playing the game ... **** i'd even enter if i see the numbers hit 50 because it'll be fun and it wouldn't be the same 10 people ... anyway

so next no johns lets try:

* no coaching
* i'll be there EARLY!!! unless god REAAAAALLY ****s on me and makes it impossible
* payout to top 5 if i get enough people
* if we get at least 35 people i'll take up the main room space
* TEAM DRAFT CREWS?!
* POOLS...

what u guys think ?

honestly if we dont hit high numbers the side events ... the pools and asking for more space just can't happen... so if everyone does their part by confirming early, keeping things hyped and posting up confirmed attendance ... only then can i plan out a better exp. for us all ... so please help me help you.

also alex i need my other tvs >_> missing two decent sized tvs and my big one =[

I actually did the whole forgot my password BS just to remember my login info to come on here and let you know how to get new players.

Paying to top 5 is stupid, it is not going to get new players to join, what I propose is having a tournament for the people who don't make it out of pools, and making it winner takes all, with the prize being what the 4th placer and the two 5th placers prize money would have been combined.

Better yet, someone should run swiss instead of pools for alukard, correctly, he's already going to be helping out with those things he mentioned that I quoted. That way the players get to play people in tournament who are at their skill level, but either way they will get to, so that will be fine.

Imo coaching is fine, as long as it's in between matches. Personally I have a really hard time playing when people are in my peripheral vision, especially if they talk (coaching or not) which is why i'm not in favor of in match coaching.

Oh and taking up some main room space has been long overdue.... number one we do pay $10.00, but the most important point is that we always have wayyy more setups than space, and it's frustrating to know that we can't get more friendlies in because of a space issue and not a setup issue, i'm a higher level player and have problems getting friendlies at no johns tournaments, so i can only imagine how it's like for a lower level player.

We always have way more tv's than cubes as well, so people should bring cubes to compliment alukard's effort of getting us more space.

TL;DR summary:

Take the 4th / two 5th placers winnings and put it into a winner take all pot for a side tournament consisting of the players who didn't make it out of pools, or better yet do swiss.

Coaching only in-between matches.

Bring cubes to take advantage of all the extra tv's and the space alukard will be getting us.

Be happy your not getting home after midnight cause alukard is starting earlier, which means BE ON TIME, and if we do end early we can do those team draft crews he was talking about.

Anyway, that's what I think.

 

[Nintendude]

Tristate will never be a part of the ssbpd project. Prepare to be grossly underrated by the smash community for all time.

One of the ideas that's being thrown around is to seed nationals strictly by Elo ratings. If that comes to life (and I think it should), Tristate is only shooting themselves in the foot by failing to participate and I think that pressure from the players can force change.

 

[Niko45]

Eggm - give money to somebody who doesn't make it out of pools instead of the people who place 4th and 5th? I don't think that really makes sense. New players don't need to worry about money they need to worry about getting better and by giving them pools/swiss like you said they get that. It seems backwards to reward somebody who can't get out of pools while 4th place goes home empty handed.

 

[Teczer0]

Its not that they get lost ... I just deleted them after i uploaded results ... Sumtimes the ****ty program crashes as well ... Tio is booty


Also tec0 u lost to samus ... Again looool somehow u always do ;D

I just do not understand that ***** at all

AT ALL.

Freakin Samus.

I'mma like spend time in the lab and play her for like 4 weeks and never have this problem.

Eggm - give money to somebody who doesn't make it out of pools instead of the people who place 4th and 5th? I don't think that really makes sense. New players don't need to worry about money they need to worry about getting better and by giving them pools/swiss like you said they get that. It seems backwards to reward somebody who can't get out of pools while 4th place goes home empty handed.

Yea, I agree. If you just come into a community you shouldn't be concerned with making it in the money. You should go to tournaments to take advantage that experienced players are there for you to play and ask questions etc.

Allowing payouts to 5th gives more of an incentive to try for the mid-high level players. I like the idea honestly. There are quite a large number of players I can see getting 5th, so people would wanna try more.

 

[SwiftBass]

I think that these are all great ideas but let's be more realistic. We Ha e had such talks before but I think that we should put one foot in front of the other. I do think that working out the semantics of the venue is the most important aspect that can be addressed immediately.

I literally set up 3 TVs that had been sitting there since the venue opened. All them people playing friendlies and they didn't realize that they just needed to go into the box and grab the extension cords.

I say more things are likely to fall into place if the setup is better. We can utilize the space a bit more which I intend on trying to implement next time. All of this talk is fine but lets see what gets implemented. Baby steps

 

[The Great Gonzales]

extending the venue to encompass more of the room would require more people to show up im guessing. How about this, maeby a confirmed list so we have an idea how many people are coming before hand?

 

[Teczer0]

Doesn't chain ace make a list regardless anyway lol.

 

[zachyjcosta]

Well for the April tourney, put me on the list (Gohan) I'm confirmed unless I work, which I usually don't on weekends. Also I have a very nice size tv, it's just getting that monster inside my ****ty little fail-on-4-wheels lol

I think we should try seeding, and as for coaching, it doesn't bother me, but I do agree that coaching should only be allowed in between matches. Also, I like the idea of payout to 5th place is good, I personally don't play for the money, but I won't deny it's something to work for.

 

[Eggm]

Eggm - give money to somebody who doesn't make it out of pools instead of the people who place 4th and 5th? I don't think that really makes sense. New players don't need to worry about money they need to worry about getting better and by giving them pools/swiss like you said they get that. It seems backwards to reward somebody who can't get out of pools while 4th place goes home empty handed.

Yeah, but like someone mentioned before, is getting like $15.00 or your money back hardly means anything.. especially since you are probably already in the negative from travel costs, so like if you combined that into a $30.00 pot or something it would make the finals of the people who lost in pools tourney super hype, and whoever wins that is gonna be hooked for life (which is great for the community)

But I mean... I only proposed this since people insisted on the top 4-5 getting paid out in the first place, top 3 only please~~~ LOL. But yeah, I see where you are coming from where the people in 4th or 5th deserve it more, I Just think even though that's true, not having like money back or $15.00 isn't gonna mean much at the same time, where the $30.00 for the winner of the not making it out of pools tourney COULD potentially mean a lot more to that player, maybe even pay for his whole trip to the tournament.

 

[Max?]

One of the ideas that's being thrown around is to seed nationals strictly by Elo ratings.

That is honestly one of the dumbest ideas I've ever heard.

First of all, other regions are WAY more on top of holding on to Tio files, so right off the bat, pretty much every region but ours has a huge edge. If this is being held seriously, we should start a "season" where only Tio files from a certain point are counted. It's the only way to have "fair" results. I've browsed through that site a bit, and people who I **** on the regular have a "higher" ranking than me, simply because they live in regions with accessible Tio files.

Second, I'm not entirely sure how Elo works, but I'm assuming that winning a tournament will give you a pretty big boost to your rating. There are tournaments held in worse regions than ours all the time. ****ing Lanceinthepants wins Indiana tournaments on the regular, and I 2-0ed him in about 5 minutes total in our Apex pool set. I guarantee that dude has a higher Elo rating on me on that site, and to think he would get seeded higher than me at a national simply grinds my gears.

All I'm saying is, there is enough nonsense involved in this community as it is. The last thing we need is some "ranking" system to determine how Nationals are handled in the future.

Tho I'm all for hearing about how wrong I am and how this is an amazing idea that could actually work.

Eggm - give money to somebody who doesn't make it out of pools instead of the people who place 4th and 5th? I don't think that really makes sense. New players don't need to worry about money they need to worry about getting better and by giving them pools/swiss like you said they get that. It seems backwards to reward somebody who can't get out of pools while 4th place goes home empty handed.

Agreed

Yeah, but like someone mentioned before, is getting like $15.00 or your money back hardly means anything.. especially since you are probably already in the negative from travel costs, so like if you combined that into a $30.00 pot or something it would make the finals of the people who lost in pools tourney super hype, and whoever wins that is gonna be hooked for life (which is great for the community)

But I mean... I only proposed this since people insisted on the top 4-5 getting paid out in the first place, top 3 only please~~~ LOL. But yeah, I see where you are coming from where the people in 4th or 5th deserve it more, I Just think even though that's true, not having like money back or $15.00 isn't gonna mean much at the same time, where the $30.00 for the winner of the not making it out of pools tourney COULD potentially mean a lot more to that player, maybe even pay for his whole trip to the tournament.

Um, why wouldn't people want their money back? Even if you're still in the negative, making some money back is good incentive to push extra hard. I get the feeling you are against Top 5 paid out as you stand to gain more by it being Top 3 only, but you have to think about the community at large, and not your own pockets.

 

[Eggm]

Um, why wouldn't people want their money back? Even if you're still in the negative, making some money back is good incentive to push extra hard. I get the feeling you are against Top 5 paid out as you stand to gain more by it being Top 3 only, but you have to think about the community at large, and not your own pockets.

Well honestly, I wouldn't have taken the time out of my day to remember my password, sign in, and post my idea on how to better spend money that would benefit me it for used for top 3 unless I cared about the community so this makes me angry.

All i'm trying to say is, if we are trying to help the community by taking away from the top 3's pot size, then why not use it in the way that benefits the community the most? Let's say 4th got.. $20.00 and both 5th placers get $10.00 each (money back), as it's been said before in the thread, most people who are getting 5th or 4th were planning on getting top 3, and they are gonna push hard no matter what, and getting those few dollars is hardly going to make a difference to them because they already in the negative. I realize yeah it's nice for them to be able to say "Yeah I got a few dollars back at least", but what i'm arguing is it really better than the following:

The whole venue getting hype over a who didn't make it out of pools finals between chibo and pyro battling it out for $40.00? I mean cmon OTG, let's face it, unless $40.00 is on the line, no one is really going to care enough to watch it / trash talk / get hype, where as with it people might, which would be a really really great experience for those players. Also more hype matches with people watching and trash talk in general the better the atmosphere at the venue.

So let's look at the pros/cons of doing that with the extra $40.00

- Potential for another hype set (I mean it's like the players challenged each other to a $40.00 MM at that point) Which is great for the community, everyone likes hype.
- Those players will definitely want to come back to a tournament that does that. (It's not like thorn's decision to come from maine is gonna be based on $15.00 when he was aiming for 1st, and he probably spent way more than that to roll in from way deep)
- $40.00 is an amount worth fighting for, rather than money back.
- Spreads the money to players who normally would have ZERO chance of winning money, whereas the people getting 4th/5th are undoubtedly gonna get at least 2nd/ 3rd once or twice if they keep entering and competing.

Cons:

- Players who got 4th / 5th don't get to say, "Yeah at least I got my money back"
- ... help me out here so I can be helped to realize why this is a bad idea.


Basically I mean, without some pot, I think running that whole post pool tournament for the people who didn't make it out of pools is kinda pointless, or at least it's purpose is greatly diminished.

Edit:

Hey, so I was just thinking about what I posted, honestly, neither idea really helps new players inspiration to keep coming back, because people who are good enough to win the tournament out of the players who didn't make it out of pools are already pretty in there and dedicated, and so are people who can get 4th/5th.

So stealing the idea of the "final boss" fight from cross assault, maybe we could use a percentage of the pot for a "final boss" fight for the people who placed last. If you look at the results thread for no johns, three people were tied for last

Flaco
Run
Trik

What if they had to fight whoever won the tournament in a "final boss" fight and whoever does the best out of the 3 gets the $40.00? I think that would definitely be fun for those players and pretty hype to watch. They could each play one match (4 stock) against the tournament winner, and whoever took off the most stocks (or won the match) would win the money, if the stocks are tied it could be based on %)

Just throwing out ideas, it would be great if the newer players stuck around and the community grew.

 

[Smelly Cat]

extending the pot to 4th and 5th encourages mid level players (7th and 9th) to try harder and come out more. if you want to encourage lower level players, paying 4th and 5th won't help very much.
this is the truth.
that is all.

 

[SwiftBass]

This is what i mean when i said that people i think take into account the amount of money too much. who cares about how much. if we really wan to compare cost then going out to play smash is a negative in regards to all forms of opportunity cost and not just money. instead of smash we could be out making more money or getting overtime hours on our jobs or finding that weekend job to make more money. or we could be resting our cars from our jobs and saving money and the irreplaceable wear n tear are cars take from traveling......


Point being that this hobby cost money and to look at it from any perspective in terms of monetary value is a lost cause. you end up losing that time and money in the long run and to compare cost to participate and be at these events with potential prize money that most of us are likely to not get is ridiculous. i really do not understand the logic behind trying to see if you can break even by winning money at these things. if money is such a priority the its obvious that you are in the wrong hobby so why bother?

 

[PK Webb]

Ppl don't even no what they win till after the tourney. I place top 5 often I don't care if I break even or not. Sum cash back is nice. U don't need money to have a hype match. I hyped the hell out of midnite vs ranmaru and it was 1st round winners. Payout the top five if its over 30 ppl.

 

[Oorah-Kabra]

What got me super hyped when I first joined the scene - Crews. And I mean real crews. Legit crews and the competitiveness between them.

Real crews were the perfect nurturing ground for newcomers. They had a few key level players from the area that actually gave a crap about improving the game of teammates. Also, they acted as scouts for newcomers with potential joining the scene. It was almost like having a small league for smashing. Smaller players had a home for growth where they didn't have to pay money for good experience and just chill times. they didn't have to feel humiliated when getting owned because they new the whooping they were receiving came with good intentions. Like when Tec0 horribly exploits my weaknesses on me week after week. He means well.... somewhere in that ******ry there is good.

I remember after my first tourney I had a few crews interested in me. And then after joining one and making sure my teammates came along with - the best smash times I ever had followed. Nowadays I forget I'm even technically a Tunes member. Yeah, remember that? Pft. How many people got into the game and were so hype about smash after watching the D.B.R. videos back in the day? Even if they were over-hyped or not they fed the community players. God such hype days.

That being said - I understand travel is much harder nowadays (which makes no sense since we are older and have cars now, I guess it's more about jobs than anything) and meeting up isn't as simple. But I wonder if real crews with real agendas started emerging again what the scene would be like.

Draft Crews are def fun and all - but it lacks the real spirit of true teams like the old days.

Real Talk,
Jonathan Silva (it got so real I used my real name)

 

[SwiftBass]

What got me super hyped when I first joined the scene - Crews. And I mean real crews. Legit crews and the competitiveness between them.

Real crews were the perfect nurturing ground for newcomers. They had a few key level players from the area that actually gave a crap about improving the game of teammates. Also, they acted as scouts for newcomers with potential joining the scene. It was almost like having a small league for smashing. Smaller players had a home for growth where they didn't have to pay money for good experience and just chill times. they didn't have to feel humiliated when getting owned because they new the whooping they were receiving came with good intentions. Like when Tec0 horribly exploits my weaknesses on me week after week. He means well.... somewhere in that ******ry there is good.

I remember after my first tourney I had a few crews interested in me. And then after joining one and making sure my teammates came along with - the best smash times I ever had followed. Nowadays I forget I'm even technically a Tunes member. Yeah, remember that? Pft. How many people got into the game and were so hype about smash after watching the D.B.R. videos back in the day? Even if they were over-hyped or not they fed the community players. God such hype days.

That being said - I understand travel is much harder nowadays (which makes no sense since we are older and have cars now, I guess it's more about jobs than anything) and meeting up isn't as simple. But I wonder if real crews with real agendas started emerging again what the scene would be like.

Draft Crews are def fun and all - but it lacks the real spirit of true teams like the old days.

Real Talk,
Jonathan Silva (it got so real I used my real name)

there are no more real crews cuz tunes would **** every no johns

 

[Heart Break Kid]

Y'all *****s write way too much. Make some tl:dr for me

 

[Max?]

I agree with HBK.

This game ****ing sucks

 

[crismas]

This game is awesome.

That being said, I really wish I could make April 7 but it's Anime Boston weekend and I'll be making some $$$ selling **** =P

 

[Max?]

This game is awesome. The politics behind playing it competitively is not.

 

[CaptainCrunch]

there are no more real crews cuz tunes would **** every no johns

Psh. Not if the maine train comes down. We'll take ya'll on.

This game is awesome. The politics behind playing it competitively is not.

politics is never awesome.

 

[Cactuar]

Having amateur brackets is a good idea, but the reward for winning should not be something with monetary value. Give them something that is smash-valuable.

1 hour of training time with whoever they want (gotta get pros to volunteer for this obvi)
An automatic decent seeding next no johns bracket
exhibition best of 5 set with the pro bracket winner
etcetc

Don't focus on money. Keeping people motivated to play and to stay in the community is easily done by providing them with rewards that encourage more play.


I really enjoyed crews as a newer player, but over the years crews became much more oriented towards stacking of crews just to win. And then draft crews came along, where you just get paired with a bunch of random people.

Crews really just needs to be about you and your friends/regular training partners. It shouldn't be about getting to know other random players and playing with them. It should be about building existing bonds. Singles pools can be about all that other bull****.

Higher level players also tend to just play matches and gg, then move along. You need to remember to talk to the people you play against. Never seen that dude's face before? ****ing ruin his life in your tournament set, but play a friendly or two while ACTIVELY TALKING TO HIM after the set to give him some pointers and to make him feel like the experience was a good one.

Keeping the community alive isn't a TO responsibility. It is a community-wide one.

 

[PK Webb]

^ that was beautiful (tear, starts slow clap) lol

 

[GOTM]

****ing ruin his life in your tournament set

i lol'd

10 chars

 

[Ryobeat]

I like the idea of free training with a person of your choice :D

 

[Kite91]

I like the idea of free training with a person of your choice :D

Its a great idea actually Id love to train with someone for any hour that youd normally have to wait to play.

 

[cmac]

I've gone to several No Johns over the last year and personally I've enjoyed competing even if I've been 0-2 every game until this last one. I think pools would be a really good idea and so would an amateur bracket. I was thinking: Should there be enough time, the tourney could start with several pools of either 4 or 6. Play through pools, then top 2 or 3 can go onto a Pro bracket of sorts and bottom 2 or 3 could go onto an amateur bracket. I understand that would take a lot of time which makes it unlikely but its a thought.

 

[Max?]

I was thinking that maybe instead of having no coaching, we assign people from pro bracket to be a coach for someone in amateur's. It would be a fun little twist.

 

[SwiftBass]

Psh. Not if the maine train comes down. We'll take ya'll on.




politics is never awesome.

Myself eggm tec0 strict and vanz would sweep maine easy actually

 

[PK Webb]

Myself eggm tec0 strict and vanz would sweep maine easy actually

that teams mad beast......who wud maine have?????? darc thorn banks dazwa captain crunch??????? that actually sounds pretty fun to watch. i wish crews still battled i really do these things sound so hype

 

[crismas]

Crews back in the day were so ridiculous. Everyone talked so much **** lol.

 

[Cia]

The Tunes pretty strong right now

:flexes: