Smasher's from The Bahamas, Having a DEBATE Over OMFG!! Melee =D, and Brawl/Brawl+
Alex says:
Where are you guys planning on playing tomorrow?
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[κει]...**** auto-message: too tired:S Taking a Nap Zzz...ttyl
[Rudra]"Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Well, isnt that something.
*****
*
*Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
isnt wat somehting
Alex says:
No chris is free this time
*****
*
*Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
wtf is goin on
Alex says:
lol
Alex says:
You guys have been bugging me all week to play smash, Where are you playing it tomorrow( hopefully if it doesn't rain)
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Whever, probably at Kel's place. I dont know if I can go now though. How ironic.
******
*Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
i'll play wherever
*****
*
*Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
eveyrone else is playin
Alex says:
I wanna play brawl+ this time?
Alex says:
I mean i haven't played it much since you came and that is something i suppose to be focusing on. So have you had any practice tristan?
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[κει]...**** auto-message: too tired:S Taking a Nap Zzz...ttyl
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
i dont play anything but melee lolol
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
*sigh*
Alex says:
Have you given brawl+ a chance though?
Alex says:
Besides with the texture hacks. I talking real beta 4.1 ****.
*****
*
*Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
i've played it before but its the most pointless game in my opinion but i know u guys like it so i wont argue about it
Alex says:
I mean i have mostly been feeling melee. But i wanna train with metaknight a bit and learn to use the newer characters, besides the music on brawl and the graphics are the best in smash to date.
******
*Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
i just dotn see a future or a purpose in brawl+
*******Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
like
i'll play it and try my hand at it
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*[κει]...**** auto-message: too tired:S Taking a Nap Zzz...ttyl
Alex says:
Oh trust me brawl+ already had 2 tournaments
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
but i wont bother really getting good at it
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Future? Purpose?
It pretty much fixed Brawl's physics and made everyone tourney viable in so many ways. What do you mean?
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
welll...
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
for one thing, theres nothing really wrong with brawls physics, theres nothing really to "fix" apart from making it more like melee
******
*Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
but brawl isnt supposed to be melee, its supposed to be brawl, and by making it more like melee
*
* Andrew has been added to the conversation.
*
*******Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
all they succeeded in doing was making a game that makes me go "i should be playing melee instead of this right now"
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Wait wait wait wait.
What?
Alex says:
Someone used that before, but brawl+ isn't like melee. Trust me it's not
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
for one thing, theres nothing really wrong with brawls physics, theres nothing really to "fix"
^What
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
i thought the whole point of brawl+ was to make it more melee like alex?
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Have you seen the infinites that most characters can pull off?
***[κει]...**** auto-message: too tired:S Taking a Nap Zzz...ttyl
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****Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
thats not what i mean
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
infinites and stuff arent a problem, they dont need to be fixed
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
u can just ban them from tourny play
Alex says:
Not really, the point of brawl+ was to make it more competitive, it's just that melee had MOST of the competitive aspects that the smash series had.
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Why bother banning them when you can fix it?
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Why leave something thats broken...broken?
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
What about Planking?
Alex says:
where using i mean
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
true i see your point about that alex, rudra i'll answer u in a second
***
[κει]...**** says:
hi
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
stfu
******
*Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
lol kel
*******Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
any
waaaayyy
Alex says:
ohh let me introduce andrew
Alex says:
another melee/brawl/brawl+ player
Andrew says:
Hey
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*[κει]...**** says:
who is drew?
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
umm..brawl+ is like, not a real game, it doesnt have the certifications of being officially released as a game, as such, it can never and will never be reached by a mass audience. what this means is that brawl+ will never have a steady fanbase like melee or brawl because not everyone can/will have access to it, and it requires more effort to set up than it should
Alex says:
He is currently in freeport and is coming over soon. andrew meet tristan a new member of my team and a melee vet(only)
Alex says:
well for the moment haha
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*[κει]...**** says:
ahh okay cool
***
[κει]...**** says:
>_> tirs... **** you lol
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
about planking rudra, i havent followed the debate on planking or what they concluded, but as far as any infinites/planking/the rest of that stuff goes, you dont have to fix it, you can ban it and still have a very viable game
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
lol
Andrew says:
You can't really ban planking
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
mm..brawl+ is like, not a real game, it doesnt have the certifications of being officially released as a game, as such, it can never and will never be reached by a mass audience.
There are already a few games that have been hacked for increased competitive value and they've gained quite a scene over time. Seeing how B+ is going, its only a matter of time.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
which is another thing i dont like about brawl+, because its community developed, it will take a very very long time to stabilize, if it ever finishes
Andrew says:
The closest thing you can get to it is a ledge grab rule and people have already bypassed that, like plank
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
becuz everytime people find effective or "cheap" tactics, they will "fix" them
Andrew says:
Unless you are willing to have a judge at every match?
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
not everyone can/will have access to it, and it requires more effort to set up than it should
They're working on making the game loadable from an SD/USB without actually modding wiis
Alex says:
What about long *** matches that to moment canceling, trust me, that **** was hacked for a good reason.
Alex says:
thanks*
******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
I really dont like the fact that they will inevitably just fix "cheap" tactics because they have the power too
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*[κει]...**** says:
pika is hella fun an any brwal . the + or V i dont care much about what they doind really just tell them to keep they old *** hands of my RAT!! but fix peach Dsmash tho...heheXD
Alex says:
I have a problem with that to tristan, but you gotta realise they wanna reduce broken to nothing but a 3 hit combo, instead of 0-70%
Alex says:
peach downsmash has been buffed a bit.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
in other fighting games, it forces players to find ways to beat difficult strategies thats what makes people better
Alex says:
Andrew give ya 2 cents man
**
[κει]...**** says:
i did
******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
there are loads of -70% combos in melee, but its still competitive becuz we cant change it, people have to instead find other ways to beat it
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
thus everyone gets better, but in brawl+ you jus change some aspect of the code and boom problem solved, thats lame
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
The problem isnt always "solved"
Andrew says:
Well I would just like to see them fix Planking like you mentioned earlier
Alex says:
Trust me if melee could have been changed it would have by now. Brawl+ is something, at first may seem * like a stupid idea* but given a chance you'll see how the smash the community always wanted can be the best smash ever.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
another thing i dont like is the fact that they keep buffing/nerfing attacks, and changing stats on characters and stuff to make all the chars balanced
Alex says:
what*
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Even with buffs/nerfs, some characters will always simply be better than others.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
exactly, so why do anythign at all?
Alex says:
Ohh trust me. fox could have 0-death characters. The reason most of that changed is because pros like ninjalink and bum gave there input on how the tactics on those characters were near broken.
Alex says:
It's been *fixed* because it needed to, not because thet wanted to
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
so w
hat if a tactic is near broken?
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
ban it
Alex says:
If pros complain, what do you want the hackers to do?
Andrew says:
You can't ban planking D;
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
honor system
**
*[κει]...**** says:
getting 0-death is fun in melee...one good shine well do the job
***
[κει]...**** says:
n_n
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
All of that why? Why go out of your way to ban something that's clearly too good when you could fix it?
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
LOOOL KEL
Alex says:
Not everything can be banned man. The ulimate reason brawl was hacked was because of the pace of the game and how flawed it was, not keeping up with traditional smash and so forth.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
fox in melee is awesome
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
becuz banning something is the same as fixing it except the difference is, when you dont have the power to fix, it, you ban it and everyone moves on and finds orther strategies and the game evolves
***
[κει]...**** says:
or a KEN combo from marth is pretty gay gay gay... we know how to ID it somethings so its less gay now
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
exactly kel
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
if something is "unbeatable" pure and straight, then ban it, if it CAN be beaten then leave it alone
Alex says:
Yes. but his greatest speed is also his weakness. Now let's look at brawl+ fox...no weakness, just pure speed and attacks that give off about 6-7% damage, all that link into usmash or uair.
***
[κει]...**** says:
but the combos in melee are too good
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
sounds like melee fox to me
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
whats wrong with that?
Andrew says:
I don't they want it to end up like melee where you only have the top 4 in the top 8
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
i think we're all forgetting the point of this discussion and focusing too much on banning stuff so let me rephrase
Alex says:
Did you read what i typed. His SPEED WAS HIS WEAKNESS, NOT in brawl+
Alex says:
In melee there are only a few characters easy/good enough to use at high levels of play. Don't you get tired of fighting ppl who also use ya favorite character. You ask yaself is there ever gonna be a bowser vs link grand finals..HELL NO NOT MELEE.
**
*[κει]...**** says:
huh?
***
[κει]...**** says:
in melee
**
*[κει]...**** says:
i love fox
Andrew says:
fox is too fun in melee xD
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
But in the end,
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
ok, the point of banning something you CANT fix in most games is to allow users to still have a competitive game, there are certain things that cant be banned but are unbreakable, so people have a "honor system"
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
for example, i dont know if you watch melee matches a lot, but in 2005-2006, it was VERY typical that fox would chaingrab other fox/falco 0-100% and kill them
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
Now, NO ONE DOES THAT
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
why not? its effective?
Alex says:
They don't do that because ppl found a way around it.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
no one does it because its not FUN and the community found other things to do that showcased more SKK
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
SKILL* and are more fun to perform
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
and yes to some extent they found ways around it
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
now in brawl+, they owuld have gone in and changed some aspect of the game to make it undoable before it even has a chance to develop
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
thus, there is no METAGAME in brawl+, things jus get changed around
Alex says:
First off notice in a fox/falco match nowadays, they would usually ban FD because that is where the CG mostky occured. So what you said is not completely irrelevant.
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Its for the sake of character balance: Its one of the ultimate goals of B+
Alex says:
relevant*
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
also, look at Waveshinging
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
in earlier years it was thought to be unbreakable
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
now, we know you can crouch cancel/smash di/quater stick di out of it
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
that took YEARS to figure out, they didnt have to change anything, but in brawl+ i garuntee they wud have "fixed" it
Alex says:
One thing i notice about you, why don't you talk about pichu and other low tiers, stop talking about fox/falco/marth.
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[κει]...**** says:
tris thats really ture
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
why should i talk about the low tiers?
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
i cud talk about link and game and watch all day
*******Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
but
they arent relevent to this discussion
Alex says:
You should because brawl+ fixed that aspect of smash.
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
There's a reason why that wasnt included either, both that and CCing actually.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
CCing isnt in brawl+ wtf?
Alex says:
Yes. When you compare to games EVERYTHING is relevant to the discussion
Alex says:
2*
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
ok
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
i'll tell you why im not talking about them and this leads into my next point
Alex says:
Yes.CG IS in brawl+ but to a certain extent.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
they arent relevent to the top of the metagame they are simply inferior characters and they dont have combos that are as unbreakable or effective as fox/falco/marth
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
but why should every char be playable? no fighter in history has been balanced
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
every fighter has characters that are completely useless, and top tier
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
WDing homogenized the ground game way more than any form of Dashing did. In fact, it was pretty much the best method of ground movement hands down. There's also the Melee 2.0 stigma that comes with it
As for CCing, lots of weak hits exist in Brawl, much moreso than Melee. Many characters would be unable to break it at all, and it would ruin character balance again.
Alex says:
Exactly. Why have those characters in a game if they aren't gonna be used. I bet that must of pissed sakurai off, no wonder if ****ed us over and made brawl, then when we finally found a way to fix everything, you go against something most ppl wanted from the beginning.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
ok, and whats wrong with "homogenized ground movement"?
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
*but why should every char be playable? no
^Why NOT? More viable characters means a more versatile metagame. It wont always boil down to MK vs MK/Snake/Top tier
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
by removing wding, instead of one way to move, you now have two, walk and run
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
big deal
Alex says:
he*
***
[κει]...**** says:
WD is like one of the best things in melee really
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
more viable characters doesnt necessarily mean a more viable metagame, the metagame is still plenty deep even for low tiers
***
[κει]...**** says:
i must say i really need it with my peach an fox, WDing out of sheild is help a alot
Alex says:
You gotta realise that WD was an exploit and wasn't intended, why should we base a game on a mechanic that suppose to be non existent.
*******
tяіѕ†аη******** says:
yea, Wavedashing doesnt "homogenize ground movement" it ENCHANCES it in every possible way
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
i'll tell you why alex i love this argument
Alex says:
I notice that it does kel and that is why, i miss it.
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
It enhances it so much so that other ground options are obsolete
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
and whats wrong with that?
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
anyway, for alex,
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Simple: Whats the point of using something, when something else is always, always, ALWAYS better to use? Why not have balanced options that need to be weighed?
***
[κει]...**** says:
alex i know you do
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
wavedahsing wasnt intended, however, its discovery has in no way HINDERED gameplay. I wotn even bother to note how it has improved gameplay in this arguement, i'll just point out that the discovery of wavedashing, whether intentional or not, is allowed becuz EVERYONE can do it and thats the key point
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
people like to call wding a "glitch" but so what?
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
its a FAIR glitch, one of the FAIREST in videogame history
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
every char can do it, and it improves the way they are all played, why should that be removed
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
How is it fair when some characters can obviously use it better than others though?
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
"Simple: Whats the point of using something, when something else is always, always, ALWAYS better to use? Why not have balanced options that need to be weighed?
"
*******Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
becuz rudra
Alex says:
This is why i said you shouldn't base it off of that. This is why there is segragation in the smash community, brawl is grabage we all agree, but i have to somewhat defend it, Now that melee era is over ppl now have brawl and without the exploits it is disregarded.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
having "balanced options that need to be weighted" is adding POINTLESS and FAKE "depth" to the game. wavedashing is almost always better than other ground options, however, you arent looking at this the full spectrum, jus because you can wd, doesnt mean there arent OTHER things that need to be accounted for and weighted in a match
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
basically, wding takes away pointless thought, and replaces it with actions that lead into truely important decisions
Alex says:
That is happening, because they feel as if sakurai has abandoned hardcore gamers and we all forget how is dream was to make a simple fun game for EVERYONE to enjoy, without these exploits smash wouldn't have been the game it is now.
***
[κει]...**** says:
well really one time ago if alex them cant remember... peach was a pick ot beat fox cuz of her Dsmash...an changthrows, everybody was liek she is too gay with the Dsmash, they could fix it or ban it they had to fine a way to beat it...but now not only can win a match an fox is beat peach so bad now ****...she was better then him but now they could ID awat right an just **** her up...fixing or benning **** isnt the only way or thing you could do about something
**
*[κει]...**** says:
is that you cant beat anything really... just try an make it work
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Takes away pointless thought....
Are you saying that making any other decision aside from WDing is pointless? What does that mean exactly? That everything else is nearly worthless in comparison to WDing?
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
If that is the case, then it really is too centralized
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
thats not what i mean
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
ok, if you remove wding, what options do you have, Walk, and run
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
or am i missing something?
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Dash Dancing, Dash Canceling
******
*Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
im not including those becuz they have thier place with wavedashin
Alex says:
I believe that sentiment, but at the end of the day, WD and the exploits shou;ldn't dicate, how other smash games should be played, the reason brawl was fixed was because it is too slow and waterd down( because of competitive gameplay) if the game was made for the mere fact of being fun then ok.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
wavedashin only makes walkng and running inferior
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
but in Brawl, Aerial approaches are also just as useful.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
as in melee
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
SHFFL
*******Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
agai
n, Wding hasnt made a homogeneous ground game
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
all it has done is replace inferior options
Alex says:
But how can you say that and expect brawl to be an asweome game?
Alex says:
awesome*
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Do you approach from a distance SHFFLing?
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
yes
Alex says:
You centralize everything around wavedashing and telling us to accept brawl the way it is?
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
brawl doesnt have to be an awesome game, it doesnt have to be as good as melee
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
yes because brawl is a different game
Alex says:
It wasn't made to be compeitive at all and it strays away from the traditional smash physics?!
Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Bull. Why not make Brawl as good as its predecessor, which set such a high standard of competitive play?
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
ok, i dnt have a problem with brawl sucking....
*******Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
and
thats opinion btw
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
one which i share
Alex says:
That is because you play melee and like i say disregard brawl as inferior.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
right
***[κει]...**** says:
u
mm...well really i dont care i just want play ab i like melee more than any game I've played ever
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
but in all truthfullness , brawl has done well for itsef as a competitve figher
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
so where are we going with this?
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
word kel
Alex says:
That is the reason the melee commmunity even after 7 years is the smallest of the smash coummunity and brawl after one yr has a larger community.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
ok
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
and what does this have to do with our discussion?
Alex says:
That is happening because it takes tooo much effort to be good at melee and soo little to be good at brawl...but brawl is larger because of scrubs. That is why there is brawl+ for ppl that is tired of melee and fox and falco, and wants some link vs sonic grand finals.
Alex says:
It's just saying that melee is good, because of the elitist that play it.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
so, brawl+ is for noobs people afraid of the skill gap of doom, and people "tired" of playing melee?
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
how brawl+ be the solution to people tired of playing melee when it emulates melee in so many ways...
Alex says:
It actually emulates smash64 more really.
Alex says:
That is only dashcanceling in from melee if i am correct.
Alex says:
there*
***
[κει]...**** says:
really most of the brawlers are gay...they wasnt really good in melee an didnt even try to get good...once they hear people like M2k shiz...etc would be play they dont want play...they did suck so much at melee when brawl come out they was hella happy to get something new an still trying the hardest to be the best an people like m2k an vidjo are still 2 of the best in the **** of the game Vbrawl...
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
ok heres the thing with brawl+
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Melee is a game that revolved more around tech skill and quick fingers. Brawl+ is a game that revolves more heavily around mindgames and matchup knowledge (and character ATs)
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
there are naturally going to be some characters better than others, do you agree?
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Obviously.
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
But
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
incorrect rudra
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
melee does not "revolve around tech skill"
Alex says:
Yea.
Alex says:
actually it does tris
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Why should they completely overshadow everyone else like MK of VBrawl did?
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
tech skill happens to be one of the abilities necessary to compete at a high level, but at a high level, melee still reolves around mindgames and reads
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
nope misconception
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
you need techskill to compete, but it doesnt revolve around tech skill
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
not quite as much as Brawl+ does, especially with the larger amount of variety you have to deal with
Alex says:
Without having the knowledge to l-cancel and wavedash you are pretty much doom to lose. That is why ppl in that gamestore hate me now. They also hate brawl+ because they think it has the melee 2.0 stigma
Andrew says:
Which gamestore? The one by KFC and the movies? (trying to remember nassau)
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
yes but alex, once you play ME or KEL, it no longer REVOLVES around whether or not you can l-cancel does it?
Alex says:
The one by the mall.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
at high levels of play, it doesnt matter what you can do technicaly becuz i can do it too
*
* daisey has been added to the conversation.
*
Andrew says:
Oh dunno that one then
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
therefore it does not "revlve" around techskill
Alex says:
Nope, because i already have the knowledge to compete.
***
[κει]...**** says:
omg days
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
if melee "revolved" around techskill, daisey would not be good
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
if melee "revolved" around techskill, Silent wolf wud win all the tournies
Alex says:
Without these basic knowlegde i would have been called names, or wouldn't have ever touched that controller, also, look at the amount of training and time it takes to be really good at melee. even if we play pros with all the training we have, we would still get *****.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
and?
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
thats becuz they are better than us
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
but i can do everything the pros do
***
[κει]...**** says:
okay for ep daisy has no tech right....an dee an alex an peolp liek them has mostly tech right?
***
[κει]...**** says:
people
*******Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
Melee isnt like running, where techskill and speed determine who win
**
*[κει]...**** says:
right?
daisey says:
yeah so how do i *****ing beat them
daisey says:
with no tech skill
**
*[κει]...**** says:
right thats what I;m talking about
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
track revolves around speed becuz you have to simply be faster than your opponent
daisey says:
people without tech skill actually wins
Alex says:
Ok. daisey uses characters that don't rely too much on tech, but if we used our tech to the best of our ability the matchups would work in my favor, i could have shine to nair her shield to no end.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
but like i said, being more TECHSKILLED wont let you win in melee
***
[κει]...**** says:
tech isnt the only thing you need to win a match
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
Dashizwiz is more techskilled than mew2king
daisey says:
quick thinking, experience even gives the upper hand
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
but Shiz has never beat him in tourny
daisey says:
not just tech skill
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
why is that if melee "revolves" around techskill?
daisey says:
it doesnt
daisey says:
there are diffrent types of skill
daisey says:
people skill
d
aisey says:
tech skill
daisey says:
and exerience skill
***
[κει]...**** says:
right thats what I'm saying tech isnt the only thing you need to win a match in melee
******
*Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
ANYWAY
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
back to my original point
**
*[κει]...**** says:
it isnt a musted
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
some characters will naturally be better than other
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
agree or disagree alex and rudra?
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
I already said that no?
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
ok
Alex says:
I was saying that brawl+ is more balanced than melee for ppl that want something new and tired of hitting l everytime they land and messing up there controller.
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
But its a problem when they can completely eclipse the rest of the cast
Alex says:
agreed
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
so, if some characters will naturally be better than others, dont you think that anyone who is SERIOUS about winning, will gravitate automatically towards the characters that give them the best chance?
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
which means that if MK and snake are a 99 out of 100 in terms of WIN
Alex says:
I for one am tired of fox dittos and losing because i missed the L-cancel of screwed up my wavedash.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
and every other cast memeber is a 98
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
i garuntee, all finals matchups will STILL BE mk vs snake
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
no matter how good you make the entire cast
Alex says:
I doubt that will happen
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
if one charcters EVEr has ANY advantage over ANY OTHERM
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
that character will ALWAYS be in the finals and most played
******
*Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
are you kidding? you have to be blind to not see this logic
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Even if they had an advantage, it shouldnt be a staggering one that renders said character unplayable.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
thats besides the point
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
How often do you watch a tournament match and see a low tier character in the latter matches?
*******Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
wow you're missing the point
daisey says:
i have to run
*******Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
ok, ness is low tier in brawl right?
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Even if a character is better than many others, the difference shouldnt be that great.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
is ness low tier in brawkl?
daisey says:
i support tristan and frankel
Alex says:
You see tristan, you make these crazy assumption out of mere curiousity and not because you actually followed the threads, but if you have legit knowledge of what is going on you would see where me and rudra is coming from.
daisey says:
i'll back this up when i return
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
....
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
im pointing out the obvious and inevitable truth of ALL fighting games
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
not just melee
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
or smash
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
ok here is a fact
Alex says:
ofcourse you would you only see melee and it is not perfect.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
lets say ness is low tier in brawl, but in brawl+ you make him a 98 out of 100 in terms of win
***
[κει]...**** says:
right! but why would we fix something thats is too good?
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
now, lets say Metaknight is a 99 out of 100
Andrew says:
Ness is low tier brawl for future reference for oyu
***
[κει]...**** says:
leave it be an play the ****in game
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
any person serious about winning WILL use metaknight REGARDLESS of how "viable" ness is
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
becuz MK gives them the best chance
daisey says:
i second that
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
what this means is that finals will boil down to MK vs MK NO MATTER HOW CLOSE THE OTHER MATCHUPS ARE
daisey says:
therefore tiers exist
Alex says:
Metaknight is great because brawl wasn't intended to be taking serious! the game has tripping for God sakes
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
ur missing the point >_>
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Even so, its not the fact that tiers exist
daisey says:
actually they didnt expect mk to be so great
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
its the fact that anyone below mid tier could be utterly destroyed by the higher ones
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
false
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
some lower tiers chars are counter picks lol
Alex says:
The point you are missing is metaknight has been nerfed so don't bring up brawl+ metaknight as God tier, he is only good now.
daisey says:
they didnt expect infinite chain grabs either
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
lol alex you completely missed my point
*******Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
ok, lets say every character in the game sucked
Alex says:
I hear you lol
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
no you dont
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
lets say EVERY character sucked
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
aisey says:
*they didnt expect infinite chain grabs either
^ Who playtested this game again? Oh, right,. Sakurai, the guy who made the Kirby series to begin with
Alex says:
I actually do, but start using vbrawl as an exp
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
but lets say ness sucked JUST A LITTLE LESS
**
*[κει]...**** says:
i play with MK from now on in whatever V or + an you guys know me play gay is they best way...i'll do the most **** with that *** MK...P.S i never played with him in my life an i'll most likely do good with him...his gay gay gay gay
Alex says:
example*
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
every one would play ness
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
and all finals will boil down to ness vs ness
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
what im saying is, you may be tired of
Andrew says:
G&W is easier to play with than mk
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
fox/falco/marth/shiek,
Alex says:
Lets say we take away the AT that is in melee. Who would be good now?
Andrew says:
generic mks are relatively easy to beat
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
but unless every character has PERFECTLY EVEN MATCHUPS
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
with every other characters
******
*Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
you will never see sonic vs link in finals
daisey says:
i find that a poor john
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
the best players will choose the best naturally better characters
***
[κει]...**** says:
but i could never do that in melee when i first stared playing with fox yeh i know his the best in the game...but god hes hella hard to play unlike MK in B
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
and all finals will boil down to that
daisey says:
"oh everyone plays fox, falco, marth"
Alex says:
Now lets take away the AT in vbrawl...oh wait there is none smt
daisey says:
so what in sf most people play ryu ect
******
*Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
Link
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
link would be the best char in melee without ATs in my opinion
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
ok and?
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
ut unless every character has PERFECTLY EVEN MATCHUPS
*with every other characters
*you will never see sonic vs link in finals
^It wont be perfect, but it shouldnt slide farther than 60:40s at worst
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
omg
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Unlike VBrawls 30:70+/-
Alex says:
It's not a poor john it is the true, if sakurai was thinking, he would have never put AT in melee and everything you are talking about would be non-existent.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
you guys need to get realistic
Andrew says:
But melee and brawl are completely different, fox is a lot more technical than melee
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
it doesnt matter how close and arbitrary matchup is
daisey says:
he didnt put AT's in melee
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
as long as character A is better than character B C D E F by even the smallest margin
daisey says:
AT's were discovered
Alex says:
Well he would have then cleaned up, if you know what i mean and not leave any exploits
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
tournaments will boil down to character A vs character A every single time
daisey says:
melee is a prefect example of true competition
Alex says:
If you followed the brawl+ threads you would have learned that sakurai did what he did, because smash is a game that is suppose to be played to have fun, not make money off of
daisey says:
even though the things that were discovered make it good
daisey says:
and
daisey says:
alot of games are like that but people still make money
***
[κει]...**** says:
yep like SF
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
ALSO
daisey says:
he tried, and made a worst game, with infinite grabs and more unbalance than ever
daisey says:
madden games
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
excluding the bottom tier characters, melee is EXTREMELY BALANCED
daisey says:
also Narutimate
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
falco, fox, marth, and sheik are some of the most even fights ever
Alex says:
Not really, fighting games are made to be fighters, smash was made to be a party game and nothing more, but AT came about and that is why it is played the way it is, brawl fell off with it's new style and it sucks
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
thats 4 possible matchups
daisey says:
Melee is balance, well more balanced than brawl for sure
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
good luck balacing brawl+ such that you get more than 2 perfect matchups
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
he tried, and made a worst game, with infinite grabs and more unbalance than ever
^thats how adamant he was about enforcing fun over competition. He should have playtested the game more though
daisey says:
lets hope so for their sake
Andrew says:
I don't think melee is more balanced than brawl...
daisey says:
melee is more balanced than brawl, may the better player win, and this doesnt mean only in tech skill
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
melee is more balanced than brawl
Alex says:
We brought back the mechanics so the game would only follow that *melee and n64 had* that made it a competitive fighter, brawl+ is the TRUE competitive game because it was intended to be that way
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
show me a brawl tourny which wasnt Snake vs metaknight in the finals
daisey says:
actually brawl plus is like a reminder of melee
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
in melee, atleast you have 4 possible finals chars
daisey says:
actually tristan more
******
*Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
so wait
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
wait wait wait wait
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
show me a brawl tourny which wasnt Snake vs metaknight in the finals
^Err, they overshadowed everyone else, remember?
daisey says:
even peach/falcon/jiggs goes to finals
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
right i was commenting on andrews post rudra
daisey says:
along with the top 4 tiers
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
i know we all agree that brawl isnt balanced
Andrew says:
CoT4 where it was meta vs meta
Andrew says:
There no snake vs meta xD
******
*Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
lol u got me
daisey says:
majority of what i see is mk or snake at top
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
anyway, i odnt have a problem with brawl+,
daisey says:
that wins tournaments, its a two man game
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
acutally i do lol
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
but not enough to stop me from playing it
daisey says:
i wouldnt put down melee for brawl
daisey says:
but i dont have a problem with brawl plus
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
what i mean to say is, i dont fall into the category of "tired of melee" yet, and when i do, i will find another game to play
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
brawl+ however ISNT that game for me
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
there are too many things is disagree with about the game to take it seriously, however, i wud enjoy playing it with you guys at friendlies
Alex says:
At the end of the knight the topic was about brawl+ getting the boost it needed and you not understanding that fact. So i just saw you revert back to vbrawl and have no idea why.
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Because they're the only ones who are truly viable in the end. Thats a problem. Why should it always wind up with those two-4 characters? Even if they dont have a huge advantage, why not allow any character to be usable there at the end of the day?
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
****, too slow lol
*******
†аη******** says:
lol oh yea i never adressed why i reverted back to vbrawl
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
we got caught up in a bunch of other ****
Alex says:
night*
daisey says:
i have to run
*
* daisey has left the conversation.
*
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
ok heres why
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
i dont have a problem with vbrawl as a game, it sucks in my opinion, but its doing jsut fine as a "competitive" game
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
like daisey said, lots of games arent very "competitve" but people still play them in tourny
*******
†аη******** says:
like Mad,den
Alex says:
All i am saying is brawl+ is the game most ppl expect with it was released and not that crappy vbrawl, float until i grow wings piece of *****
Alex says:
when*
*******T
яіѕ†аη******** says:
right, and i was one of those people, but my solution was to just go back to melee
Andrew says:
Who do you use tristan?
Alex says:
Now there is a new answer to those that look at melee and brought a wii for brawl.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
brawl+ has caused more problems than it solved and when i get tired of melee, i think im going to play guily gear
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
i use falco and doc in melee, along with falcon, link, game and watch, marth, fox for fun in melee
*******Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
in brawl i use game and watch and pikachu
Alex says:
My wii is pimped out anyway, outside of smash so either way i win haha. Even though i haven't been in the smash mood and ducking brawl+ i still think it is the way to go in terms of moving on.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
right and thats fine
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
like i say i dont mind playing brawl+ but the reason why i cant and wont take it seriosuly is becuz melee is better in just about every way, and i cud jus play that instead
Alex says:
We have come to a conculsion, you love melee, like daisey love lol and Rudra and i agree that trying a new smash, community made is the way to go.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
and "every character is viable in brawl+" isnt a good enough reason to make me move on
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Its not something intended to do so. Its just a differentiation from Melee, just like the other things that seperate the two.
Alex says:
exactly, they are different man, just like n64 is to melee.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
but the thing that always gets me about brawl+
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
is that, every time i play it, i think "why did they remove X tactic, if they can fix anything, they shud have left it in becuz it wud have been better this way"
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
like jump cancel grabs, why are they removed?
Alex says:
You know why brawl+ is also better, stage and texture hacks, i'll send you one match from a sonic vs link grand finals, does anyone wanna see it?
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
who gives a **** if they make regular grabs inferior
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
i saw ally vs m2k texture hack
Andrew says:
that one looked really cluttered
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
They want to keep everything balanced, including options. JC Grabs are better in almost every way to pivods, DC grabs, and DC shield grabs.
Alex says:
They were removed from sakurai made brawl and because it homogenized the grab game.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
it was cool but i dont play smash for how it looks lol, i still play smash 64 for christs sake
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
as balanced as possible*
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
see thats the mentality i just dont agree with
******
*Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
keeping "everything balanced" just for the sake of it is ****ing stupid in my opinion, pardon my french
Alex says:
No they were vbrawl matches ewww.
Alex says:
did you see stages textures?
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
but if you're gonna balance something, i hate to see it being done just for the sake of it
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
it is unnecesary and doesnt add anything to the game
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
whereas jc grabs do ADD to the game
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
yea hellfno plaza
Alex says:
If you think i can't 0 to death you in brawl+ try me xd
Alex says:
They only made the **** easier to escape. Ask harry how it was fighting my fox.
Andrew says:
Hellfino plaza distracted me from watching the actual match
******
*Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
thats becuz you're better than him at b+ :l
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
yea same lol i almost puked
Alex says:
ohhhh noooo
A
lex says:
harry was pretty good fighting me, my DI was better, but his marth was landimng tippers like mad.
Alex says:
landing*
Alex says:
I'll send the link to one grand finals and ya'll tell me if it is boring.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
rudra, how does removing jc grabs and keeping inferior forms of grabbing add to the gameplay?
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
if anything it only limits gameplay, not balance it
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
While it would add an option to grabbing, it would make the others inferior in that JC grabbing is always best. You may as well not have those other options at all at such a rate.
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
However.
Alex says:
It actually allows the player to use other options instead of watching vids and saying* hey i'll use jc grabs because it owns everything else*
Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
I am not too certain as to how they view JC grabs
Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Some are for it
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Some arent
******
*Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
ok, and what does "allowing the user to use other options' accomplish alex?
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
a grab is a grab no matter HOw it is attained
***
[κει]...**** says:
bored... drew what you doin tomorrow?
Alex says:
It allows for more mix ups
*******T
яіѕ†аη******** says:
mix ups?
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
lol no
A
lex says:
considering brawl+ is lacking flashy tactics
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
a grab is a grab
says:
=Have you seen pivot wavegrabs befpre
Alex says:
before*
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
yes
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
they are the only way to continue certain chaingrabs on certain chars at certain percents in melee
Alex says:
They aren't really in melee, unless JC
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
no there are pivot grabs in melee
Alex says:
I never seen it
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
PWG was in Melee without WDing? Am I missing something?
*******T
яіѕ†аη******** says:
maybe brawl players have changed the name of pivot, but a pivot grabbing certainly exists in melee
Alex says:
I never seen it
******
*Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
what does pivot mean in brawl
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
or wat are u thinking of when u say pivot?
Alex says:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuRX0mzVTIM
Andrew says:
just dawned on me school tomorro
Andrew says:
lamee
says:
Best link ever...
Alex says:
how is school tomorrow, tomorrow is a holiday
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
tomroow is a holiday
Alex says:
Now compare that to vrbawl
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
ya so what does pivot mean in vB or B+ becuz we are likely thining of two different things
Andrew says:
it is monday now
Andrew says:
xD
Alex says:
That is the turn around grab
**
*[κει]...**** says:
lol
Alex says:
dash hit back and grab at the same time
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Basically, you dash forward and slide in the same direction as the initial dash, but you pull off a reverse grab while sliding
Alex says:
better explanation
Andrew says:
That is a good stage exture o-o
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Its friction based I think
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
SUPER MARIO GALAXY!!!1
Alex says:
i know
says:
That is where the music is from?
**
*[κει]...**** says:
drew what is your smash name?
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
ok yea we are thinking of different things
Andrew says:
Uhh
Andrew says:
Andy i guess
Andrew says:
Sometimes I get called Bread since I like it
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
in melee, a "pivot" is in the dashdance animation, there is a certain frame window where your character is perfectly still and standing
Alex says:
Yes well falco and fox can use it to there advantage. While melee had universal AT brawl+/vbrawl has character specific ones
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
in that window you can launch ANY attack
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
obviously thats benefical for obvious reasons
Alex says:
It's watered down and easier to use in brawl+
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
anyway, back to the point at hand
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Okay, but PWG didnt exactly exist in Melee in the same form as it did in Brawl then?
Alex says:
nope.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
how does leaving in multiple forms of grabbing that all equally suck
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
enchance gameplay or promote metgame growth?
Alex says:
Not really, dude stop making false assumption and actually put work into the game.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
...
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
im not making assumption
Alex says:
Unless you play brawl+ for more than a day and can give solid feedback i advise you just stop.
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
They dont all suck. Thats the thing
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Each type of grab has their uses, but JC Grabs would overshadow them easily.
*******Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
just like in melee
*******Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
jc grabs are superior, but pivot grabs had their place
Alex says:
I think JC grabs are the best in melee. I for one don't use anything else.
*******Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
anyway you guys are looking at this from a very limited point of view
*******Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
so what if jc grabs overshow the rest
*******Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
what is the point of a grab?
Alex says:
same can be said for you.
*******Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
who cares HOW you get a grab
Alex says:
The player you are fighting cares.
*******Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
:l
Alex says:
jc grabs promotes perfect CG
*******Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
right
Alex says:
If there are any
*******Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
which leads to a better overall metagme
Alex says:
I think marth can CG spacies in brawl+ rudra at low percents
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Yeah, and follow up from then too.
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Mostly around the 30s I think
******
*Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
with perfect chaingrabbing, you have enchanced use of a character, and in response, his opponenets have to now learn how to deal with that and develoop there own metagamre
Alex says:
If you DI up then i need to follow with a utilt or uair.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
tell me how having multiple, less perfect grabbing options, enhances gameplay
Alex says:
This isn't melee and everything in this game is chracter specific, we don't need character being more gay.
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Tell me how having one always optimal grab does.
Alex says:
characters*
******
*Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
k i will
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
You lose options=loss of depth
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
NOT TRUE
Alex says:
true.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
ok
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
i'll try to explain this as best i can
******
*Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
please dont respond in between posts and then u can rebut, i jus dont want you to ask a question im going to answer is a few secs
Alex says:
anyone wanna see tourney matches from btl brawl+ tourney?
Andrew says:
i can see some
Alex says:
ok
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
ok, losing options does not always mean you lose depth, that is a false assumption
*******
†аη******** says:
maybe if we were talking about teching
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
and you told me they removed in place techs, and now you cud only tech right or left, THEN you wud lose depth
alex says:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXxoPZ6Xhcs
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
but, if we are talking about a technique that is a means to and end
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
for example, a grab, a grab is a means, NOT and end
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
no matter how you get a grab, the point is, you got it
*******
†аη******** says:
now, if jc grab is the best option, you can now focus on more important aspects of the metagame
*******
†аη******** says:
because now, you have increased options like perfect chaingrabbing that u need to practice, you now have the ability to tech chase A LOT FASTER
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
what this means is that you opponent has to deal with these things, and in turn, they have to develop their metagame in response
*******Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
just becuase you leave in multiple MEANS does not add depth to the game
*******Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
adding ENDS is what adds depths
*******Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
any means to an end is not depth, and they shud all be PERFECTED and slimed to be as streamlined as possbile
*******Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
eaving in "ways of performing a function" that arent useful is pointless
*******Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
k im done
Alex says:
What you don't realise and from what i am seeing. first off THIS ISN"T MELEE!!!! for the last time, teching isn't as fast as melee and also JC grabs were implenmented to not only grab faster, but to reduce getting attacked, that is harder in brawl+ more attacks already have lag and shielding is alot different. So no i rather not have that implenmented.
***[κει]...**** says:
okay thats it right? guys
*******Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
sorry i meant to say "if you told me they removed in place techs"
*******Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
anyway continue
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
You could have more "focus", but so would your opponent. Thats one (or several in this case) less approach they could take to grabbing. While landing any form of a grab has an equal result, the level of punishment for missing is still different. The punishment for whiffing a Dash Grab or a PWG is still different from that of a JC Grab.
*******Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
indeed...
Alex says:
I am saying that it is eaiser to buffer a perfect shield after grabbing so, then it would be easier to do just about anything from that jc grabs, because it acts like a standing grab. So why would i make it even easier for you to be spamming and hide behind ya shield, the reason it isn't there is to punish a failed grab.
***[κει]...**** says:
ahh yeah that true
***[κει]...**** says:
ummm..
***[κει]...**** says:
well...
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
lol akward silence
Alex says:
lol
*******Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
i dont see ur point sorry i dont understand u
***[κει]...**** says:
lol
*******Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
say it again differently plz
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
im serious
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
The point is:
Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
While each grab does have the same outcome :The opponent gets grabbed,
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
the punishment for each type and the situation to use them are all relatively different
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
yes...and
**
*[κει]...**** says:
the point is that i should tel you guys who win ths **** of a debate!! right? drew?
*******
†аη******** says:
stfu kell this is interesting
Andrew says:
Man I got lost a while ago cause I could only really contribute to the brawl stuff xD
**
*[κει]...**** says:
sorry I'm bored sorry about that:S
Alex says:
The point is in melee after a jc grab, you can't buffer a shield because a buffering system, doesn't exist, but in brawl+ it does. The reason brawl+ was created was to reduce camping and hiding behind shields, with jc grabs in that would only allow grabbing to became safe again.
**
*[κει]...**** says:
guash
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
There's also that...yes...
******
*
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
well there is a buffer system in melee jus so u know
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Its nowhere near as prominent in Brawl
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Besides
Andrew says:
s'alright
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
the shield comes out on frame 1
**
*[κει]...**** says:
hmph...tris534@pornstar. com lol omg too good!! xD
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
and it PS's really easily too.
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
Despite having a smaller window
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
its still buffered.
******
*Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
anyway, heres my point, regardless of what specific aspect of melee im using as an example is irrelevent
[Rudra] "Shin no tatakai wa...KOREKARE DA!!" ~Silence is golden, but Duct tape is silver!~ =D says:
The buffer system couldnt fully remove that.
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
what im saying is
Andrew says:
xd
*******
Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
just because a specific method of performing an action is superior DOESNT mean that method should be removed
Alex says:
You gotta think like a brawl player and stop using melee, physics as you conviction, to diss brawl+
*****
**Tяіѕ†аη******** says:
just for the "sake of having more options".....PART 2 COMING SOON
HAHAHAHAHAHA
