Jihnsius
Smash Lord
SC mindgames don't work in the exact same way as Melee, but they are there. SC is so overanalyzed that there are very few things a player can do that the other wouldn't expect or know how to counter.
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APM of Smashers. July Update - The Fastest Peach
- Thread starter RockCrock
- Start date
My brother dropped a Drone INSIDE my base and made a hatch right there without me knowing. Made a sukken and just went to town. Infested my CC and forced me to my expo.
You can be so creative in Starcraft! I love it!
Melee sort of works the same way with mindgames and combos. Like my favorite thing to do is run by the opponent while thier in shield and just f-smash them when they drop thier shield unexpectedly.
You can be so creative in Starcraft! I love it!
Melee sort of works the same way with mindgames and combos. Like my favorite thing to do is run by the opponent while thier in shield and just f-smash them when they drop thier shield unexpectedly.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,565
this **** is awesome
one thing though: top players like darkrain, ken, m2k, mango, etc. DI pretty much everything unless they're at low %. playing them myself i've never really noticed a lack of DI (good or bad, mostly good), however it'd be difficult to prove without extensive testing (like using the attack at the percentage he got hit & comparing the trajectories).
this is especially true about EC players; their DI seems to be pretty spot on regardless of how unexpected an attack they're hit by.
really interesting research stuff, though... I should do this to some of my matches :D
one thing though: top players like darkrain, ken, m2k, mango, etc. DI pretty much everything unless they're at low %. playing them myself i've never really noticed a lack of DI (good or bad, mostly good), however it'd be difficult to prove without extensive testing (like using the attack at the percentage he got hit & comparing the trajectories).
this is especially true about EC players; their DI seems to be pretty spot on regardless of how unexpected an attack they're hit by.
really interesting research stuff, though... I should do this to some of my matches :D
greenblob
Smash Lord
Maybe this has been addressed already, but one problem I see with this is that there's a difference between potential APM and APM of a match. A significant portion of a given match is spent doing nothing, waiting for invincibility to wear off, reading your opponent, etc.
Phoenix~Lament
Smash Ace
I think potential APM was represented by my APM counting for Axe's fox match. It was a completely one-sided match where Axe never stopped moving, a rare case where potential APM is the realistic APM. This is what makes Axe's data an outlier compared to the other matches.
I also think Ken is a great example of how high APM isn't as crucial in melee as it might be in starcraft.
Jihnsius
Smash Lord
Touching back on the subject of what should and shouldn't be counted towards total time of a match: there are just way too many variables and uncontrollable waiting periods that it'd be nearly impossible to come to an agreement as to what should be excluded from total time. Any time in which the player does not have control over the character would be a fair way to include all time that wouldn't be able to contribute APM, but then you'd have to tabulate all the time spent in hitstun, in a grab, in a momentum altering B attack, and even as far as during any grounded A attack. If you just keep it from start of the match to finish, and everyone uses this baseline for APM timing, there's no disagreements and no differences in how APM is tabulated between the people doing the work and the results.
EDIT: As for potential DI situations, it's up to the reviewer's discretion. It's not always easy to determine when a player has the ability to read an attack and input DI, especially when there are other actions going on at the same time. If one character is hit out of an attack, I'd say it's fair to say that they weren't expecting to be hit, and wouldn't have had the reflexes to intentionally input DI. As for being juggled/comboed, I'd assume there are only two DI inputs: the first for trying to escape the combo, which would usually be away and the second would be survival DI for the final hit, towards the stage, not actually one input per hit.
EDIT 2: For being grabbed, I'd say we should agree on an average amount of inputs for wiggling. I personally can do about 20 inputs per second for escaping a grab, which I think is the most efficient and probably most universally accepted method of wiggling: mash A/X/Y/B with the thumb, about 4 times total in a second, while rotating the control stick about 4 times as well. If you're grabbed ~5 times in a match, this can add a fairly good amount to total APM, about 100 total extra actions. What does everyone else think on the subject?
EDIT: As for potential DI situations, it's up to the reviewer's discretion. It's not always easy to determine when a player has the ability to read an attack and input DI, especially when there are other actions going on at the same time. If one character is hit out of an attack, I'd say it's fair to say that they weren't expecting to be hit, and wouldn't have had the reflexes to intentionally input DI. As for being juggled/comboed, I'd assume there are only two DI inputs: the first for trying to escape the combo, which would usually be away and the second would be survival DI for the final hit, towards the stage, not actually one input per hit.
EDIT 2: For being grabbed, I'd say we should agree on an average amount of inputs for wiggling. I personally can do about 20 inputs per second for escaping a grab, which I think is the most efficient and probably most universally accepted method of wiggling: mash A/X/Y/B with the thumb, about 4 times total in a second, while rotating the control stick about 4 times as well. If you're grabbed ~5 times in a match, this can add a fairly good amount to total APM, about 100 total extra actions. What does everyone else think on the subject?
I have an idea.
Though it may not directly correlate, could someone create a "debug" mode on Brawl+ using the geko/whatever. In it you could record every input that the players successfully make. Of course, being Brawl, the data won't be a true reflection of Melee, but given that Brawl+ is closer to Melee and would be easier to work on considering the homebrew and geko are available. I'm also not ruling out just using an AR on Melee, which may be possible (like increment the percent of a character by 1 every time a different character does a move. So, therefore, while the two characters are fighting the percent shown would be the number of actions performed so far. Just an idea...)
However, having played and watched starcraft myself and used the APM monitor, I would feel comfortable saying that high end players could max out, and I mean really push it, at 300 but normally play 200 - 250.
Though it may not directly correlate, could someone create a "debug" mode on Brawl+ using the geko/whatever. In it you could record every input that the players successfully make. Of course, being Brawl, the data won't be a true reflection of Melee, but given that Brawl+ is closer to Melee and would be easier to work on considering the homebrew and geko are available. I'm also not ruling out just using an AR on Melee, which may be possible (like increment the percent of a character by 1 every time a different character does a move. So, therefore, while the two characters are fighting the percent shown would be the number of actions performed so far. Just an idea...)
However, having played and watched starcraft myself and used the APM monitor, I would feel comfortable saying that high end players could max out, and I mean really push it, at 300 but normally play 200 - 250.
From what I've played of Brawl + I don't think its close enough to compare directly to Melee like that. The AR with melee sounds intriguing to me though, except we would want an increase for every input and some moves have multiple inputs to them. I have no idea whats possible with an AR.
Phoenix~Lament
Smash Ace
Brawl +'s highest APM AT is shuffling.
With automatic L-cancelling.
<_<
It just can't compare to melee really.
With automatic L-cancelling.
<_<
It just can't compare to melee really.
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
Really interesting thread. Good **** Rock.
blast_ssbb
Smash Ace
amazing read, i enjoyed it a ton. awesome job everyone!
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
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- 26,565
a player has to DI every single hit of a combo
Also, many players DI when they anticipate a hit like during an attack/whatever so they aren't screwed by an unexpected attack.
most efficient struggling is spinning the control stick and the C-stick at the same time. you also have to take into account that the player has to DI the throw itself, as well.
joeplicate
Smash Master
spinning cstick doesn't do anything to wiggle out, iirc
mash the buttons instead
mash the buttons instead
Jihnsius
Smash Lord
cstick doesn't, control stick counts every basic direction as one input.
Jihnsius
Smash Lord
Different games, incompatible results.
forward
Smash Champion
This is really cool. Good work guys.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,565
Why would you mention Brawl in the same breath as Marvel or Melee? The APM of Melee or Marvel would probably be comparable, while Brawl wouldn't even come close.
Jihnsius
Smash Lord
Hey, if you guys want to take this route, let's go ahead and compare the APM of chess and the NFL while we're at it.
Generally speaking, they're all fighting games.
Compare Melee to Marvel APM: find out which game is more demanding overall
Compare Melee to Brawl APM: find out how much less demanding Brawl is
It's not like I'm saying compare Melee to Starcraft...
Why stop there? How about the APM of sitting down? Or praying to god? That sounds swell!
RockCrock
Smash Champion
I find it fascinating that the most dominant player in history, Ken, has the lowest APM of any pro we've observed thus far. Maybe players becoming more techincal over time isn't a step in the right direction for metagame? Ken didn't need to be super fast, he was just super smart and efficient.
I am curious to see how Ken's Marth compares to present-day M2K's Marth.
I am curious to see how Ken's Marth compares to present-day M2K's Marth.
Vsin
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2009
- Messages
- 162
I dunno, Ken lost a TON of APM doing that invinci stall in the middle of the match there. I think the "true APM" is roughly 200.
Also, a lot of stuff with certain characters (eg: Fox) needs many actions to perform one event, multiplied many times over the course of a round (my classification of event: 3 actions in a wavedash, which is one event).
Also, a lot of stuff with certain characters (eg: Fox) needs many actions to perform one event, multiplied many times over the course of a round (my classification of event: 3 actions in a wavedash, which is one event).
Jihnsius
Smash Lord
Sounds like someone we all know as Mango
ETWIST51294
Smash Hero
I would want to see MvC2 APM because I just want to see which game takes faster hands. Just Marvel does have mashing...
Jihnsius
Smash Lord
AHVB is the only mashable move out of the high-top tier characters.
Alphicans
Smash Hero
Wow why haven't I seen this thread yet lol? I don't want to read the last 10 pages, but I do want to say looking at what is presented there are a few flaws. Firstly you're doing average apm, which is ridiculous because there are many instances where there is a great deal of "spam" going on. Although it is still cool to see how smash apm compares to SC, but for the most part it looks like it's ranging from about 150-220, which is actually better than I expected. However I think that anyone going over 250 apm in smash are doing a lot of unnecessary things, and I think to play well enough to be professional you only need to maintain a 200 apm during a match.
ETWIST51294
Smash Hero
Fox takes really fast hands. You should know that.
Alphicans
Smash Hero
I know that, but I didn't think getting 300 apm in smash was even possible. Although I guess spamming moves really helps that cause. And actually fox takes fast hands when compared to smash, not SC, but lets not start a flame war over that lol 
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ETWIST51294
Smash Hero
I just watched the match. He didn't do one unessesary thing accept for shffling up airs whan his opponent died.I know that, but I didn't think getting 300 apm in smash was even possible. Although I guess spamming moves really helps that cause. And actually fox takes fast hands when compared to smash, not SC, but lets not start a flame war over that lol
Can you tell me how SC takes faster hands? I had this arguement with someone about this not too long ago and I want to here it from someone who plays Smash and SC. I just can't see people playing SC having faster hands, but I want to know if it's true.
Alphicans
Smash Hero
Umm well firstly achieving a 200 apm in smash I don't think would be that hard to do, and to be quite frank not at all necessary. Starcraft has builds and startegies that REQUIRE you to have a 300+ apm, and this is not including spam. Smash matches last for about 2-5 minutes on average, where as SC matches last about 10-20 minutes on average, and keeping up a 300 apm for that amount of time is really strenuous on not only your hands but the mind. I mean with the matches taken so far the average apm worked out to be 227, which includes professionals play, so this is basically top level play. I am impressed with how close the speed has come to SC players, but the level of difficulty to maintain a 300 apm in SC far outranges the difficulty to acheive it in a smash match, since in SC it requires multitasking and such. Also don't forget every thing you go on the controller is accounted for as a action, where as in SC you can do a lot of things that aren't accounted for as an action.
In short, SC not only requires to be faster, but it requires to be faster for a much longer time frame. On top of that maintaining such a high level apm in SC requires a lot more multitasking, and a lot more focus.
Honestly you'd have to play SC to know what I am talking about, there's just no comparison.
In short, SC not only requires to be faster, but it requires to be faster for a much longer time frame. On top of that maintaining such a high level apm in SC requires a lot more multitasking, and a lot more focus.
Honestly you'd have to play SC to know what I am talking about, there's just no comparison.
ETWIST51294
Smash Hero
Someone could argue that, but I'm not the one. I tend to over think arguements over the internet so i don't even bother anymore. A smart smasher could argue this probably, but if I do it I'll just make myself look stupid.
NES n00b
Smash Master
It does take faster hands for longer period of time. It is the curse of playing a fighting game instead of a RTS game. By design, RTS people have to do more technically for multitasking on multiple levels and such. As long as the RTS has a decent speed, it should beat almost any fighting game in the APM department.
Tomacawk
Smash Master
Alphican is 100% correct. Alphican, iccup?
ETWIST51294
Smash Hero
Thanks guys for clearing that up. I guess if three guys say the same thing, it has to be true.