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APM of Smashers. July Update - The Fastest Peach

Geist

Smash Master
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Sep 26, 2007
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I've always wanted to record someone's hands while playing smash.
I wonder if playing smash on a keyboard would raise your APM. Probably not by much.
 

Hazygoose

Smash Lord
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straight outta Locash
I'd expect the average Fox/Falco player these days to post 250ish APM.
mogwai pretty much buttraped estimation. hard. not that DSW is average but it's really close

i just finished calculating apm on a recent-ish shiz match.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qna80MbcAAc only felt natural.

here's what i got, and remember, some of the things were hard to count (fast falls, l-cancels, etc), and there are some inputs that are probably worthless inputs, so this is a) an estimation and b) EFFECTIVE apm, as opposed to just all inputs...inputs that "matter" are harder to track in SC, you can't even see them in melee so how about that.

obviously stole the template from rockcrock, although i edited a few things to make it easier to count. SHL can vary so i split it strangely, hopefully you understand where i'm getting at with my categorization.

Full jumps, short hops, and double jumps: 132x1 = 132
Dashes/walks – 64x1 = 64
Aerials – 57x2 = 114
Fast falls – 74x1 = 74
L-cancels – 53
Shields – 14
rolls - 7: (3 from shield, 4 out) 3x1+4x2 = 11
air dodge - 1x1 = 1
spot dodge - 3x2 = 6
grabs - 3x2 = 6
pummels - 0
throws - 3x1 = 3
di inputs - 41x2 = 82
up or side+bs - 11x2 = 22
lazers - 46 (45 came out, 1 interupted)x1 = 46
SHL turn around - 3x1 = 3
shines - 24x2 = 48
wavedashes - 14x3 = 42
wavelands - 2x2 = 4
tilts/smsahes - 14x2 = 28
dash attacks/jabs - 2x1 = 2
standing techs - 2x1 = 2
rolling techs - 2x2 = 4
get ups - 2x1 = 2
ledge drops - 11x1 = 11
platform drops - 7x1 = 7
wall jumps - 0
taunts - 0

Total match time: 3:09
Active match time (match time minus time spent idle/up+b'ing/dead): ~3:00
Total inputs: 781


Effective APM = 260



well that was actually fun to do, hope that info helps. ^.^
 

RockCrock

Smash Champion
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Wow freaking awesome job, Goose. I didn't think you would do it, hahah. You made intelligent category simplifications too, sweet! Active match time is a great idea, also. How long did it take you?

A few questions though. I see a lot of categories have x2 next to them to calculate the actions. I understand some of them, but why the x2 next to aerials and DIs?


Super fantastic job.
 

Hazygoose

Smash Lord
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straight outta Locash
Wow freaking awesome job, Goose. I didn't think you would do it, hahah. You made intelligent category simplifications too, sweet! Active match time is a great idea, also. How long did it take you?

A few questions though. I see a lot of categories have x2 next to them to calculate the actions. I understand some of them, but why the x2 next to aerials and DIs?


Super fantastic job.
aerials counted as 2 for direction+button. i guess nair shouldn't be categorized the same but shiz obviously dair'd a majority of the time and bair'd most of the time besides that, so yeah. i guess c-stick shortcuts can half that input, but since we're counting smashes the same way, i figured to do aerials that way, also.

and i just assumed shiz was double-stick DI'ing a majority of the time. so 2 for DI, in the same vein as before.

it probably just took like...a little over an hour?
downloaded it, watched the jumping/wavedashing stuff at half speed, then watched for most of the other stuff at 2x the speed so it went by really fast ^.^

edit: also, grabs counted as 2 because i assumed they'd be jump cancelled. he misses one in the video so i guess that brings it down to exactly 780 actions and exactly 260 apm :D
 

#HBC | Mac

Nobody loves me
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tech rolls should be 2 actions as well.

and some may argue that wall jumps should be as well.
 

Binx

Smash Master
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pro's don't double stick DI, it doesn't actually work, wall jumping is only away from the wall if you don't count the initial jump. most aerials will be c-sticked, so aerials should count as only one, however there will be aerial DI during those so its still fine to have 2.
 

#HBC | Mac

Nobody loves me
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alot of the times people DI into the wall first. I know I generally do, in rare occasions do I find myself close enough that I just flick away to wall jump.

What do you mean double stick DI doesnt actually work? That is a fallacy.
 

RockCrock

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I had a conversation with Hazygoose about the accuracy of some of his calculations. We also talked about what he was calling "double-stick DI." I have added his contribution to the first post and tweaked some of his calculations (namely halfed the actions from aerials and DI). Shiz' recalculated, more accurate, estimated effective APM is 228.
 

Hazygoose

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straight outta Locash
pro's don't double stick DI, it doesn't actually work, wall jumping is only away from the wall if you don't count the initial jump. most aerials will be c-sticked, so aerials should count as only one, however there will be aerial DI during those so its still fine to have 2.
if the person is moving during an aerial then their movement action was most likely already noted as a dash or something.
very rarely are players standing still when they jump.

but yeah, we tweaked our results in the end. i'll be doing a couple more throughout the week. i'll leave silent wolf alone since i know someone else will do it XD

i've got eggz on my list, though. i'll be doing recent drephen, too, and possibly a samus, peach, or marth vid. haven't made up my mind, why don't you *points generally*
 

Eggz

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this threads ****

use one of my newer tourney matches being posted in a day or two if you do mine.

cant wait to see this list a ton of people
 

Doctor X

Smash Lord
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"Double stick DI" is actually applicable when the player is touching the ground upon getting hit. What you do is ASDI into the ground with one stick then DI normally with the other. You can do this with one stick (my moving very quickly from down to normal DI) or both, but either way it's two actions. It increases your survivability like crazy.

Ken used to do this. I don't know if Shiz is doing it or not... Seeing as most of the kills against him are gimps it's kinda hard to tell.
 

Cactuar

El Fuego
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There is a problem in comparing APM in a game using a controller and in Starcraft from a perspective based on input layout and number of input devices (fingers/thumbs), as well as frame limitations on inputs.

Starcraft players have the ability to buffer a lot of their actions by hovering a finger over another key while waiting for another finger to perform a button press, as well as click spam (not always spam, but regardless, the frame limitation is next to non-existant) while moving units. Smash has very little buffer opportunity, as well as a reduction in the number of input devices (fingers/thumbs), generally down to either 3, 4, or 5, depending on shoulder button usage and claw usage.

I'm gonna stop because I don't feel a comparison is even really possible.

The precision involved in Starcraft is the really impressive thing to me, not really the APM.



Studying APM in smashers seems really interesting though. :laugh:

It'll be really hard if you try to find SDI, DI, re-DI, etc.


Also, for Nair being able to be counted as two, you could consider that the player is in fact moving the joystick from a position to neutral, then back to another position.
 

Tomacawk

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My apm in sc was 180 with terran, 170 with zerg, and 160-200 with toss, in my prime.
I miss that game :(
 

azianraven

Smash Journeyman
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Mar 13, 2007
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Gainesville, FL
I'd love to see a comparison of other fighters such as SF3 and MVC2 in terms of APM.

IMO, Melee players have more APM than most fighters, but not an excruciatingly wider range. Probably something around 30 more is a good estimate.
 

Spife

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lololol but smash isn't a reall fighting game lolol items and stocks and changing the options from factory settings
/srk mentality.

I agree, i'd like to compare apm with other games.
 

azianraven

Smash Journeyman
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I'm definitely up for the task, but I'm not knowledgeable in the realms of other fighting games in order to determine the players' APMs =[
 

Had0

Smash Cadet
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I used to play Starcraft... and most of the programs designed to count your APM like BWSheet icluded spam as APM as do most Starcraft players. So if we were to include spam in the calculations for APM pro Smashers instead of restrict it to legitament inputs the APM could be like 30 points higher on average or so.

BTW rockin' post, I got a kick out of this ^^
 

Phoenix~Lament

Smash Ace
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AvxvNjnHJk

I counted APM for Axe, the purple fox who won.

Start Time 0:03

Short Hop
Move Right
Fast Fall
Short Hop
Move Right
Fast Fall
Short Hop
Laser
Fast Fall
Dash Dance (6 dashes)
JC Grab (2)
Up throw
Up SMash (2)
Dash
Up Smash (2)
TUrn Around
Up Smash (2)
Dash
Jump
Move Right
Neutral Air
L-Cancel
Walk
TUrn Around
Wavedash (3)
Shine (2)
Jump
Fast fall
Crouch
Wavedash (3)
Roll (2)

46

End First Stock (0:15)

Jump
Move Left
Double Jump
Fastfall
Waveland
Jump
Fast fall
Dash
Jump
Shine (2)
Jump
Waveland (2)
Move left
Firefox ledge cancel (2)
Jump
Move right
Fast fall
Down-air (2)
L-cancel
JC Grab (2)
Throw left
Jump
Move left
Shine (2)
Turn around
Jump
Fast fall
Move right
Dash
JC Grab (2)
Throw left
TUrn Around
Jump
Fast fall
Move Left
Move Right
Shine (2)
Jump
Fast fall
Move left
Firefox ledge cancel (2)
Down
Shine (2)
Jump
Fast fall
Move right
Waveland to the left (2)
Four shuffled u-airs (5 each)
Wavedash left (3)
Move left
Firefox Ledge cancel (2)
Jump
Laser twice
Move right
Jump
Shine (2)
Shine (2)
Jump
Fast fall
Laser x3
Jump
Shine (2)
Jump
Laser x3
Jump
Move right
Laser x2
Fast fall

110

Dashdance (2 dashes)
JC Grab (2)
Up throw
Jump
Up air (2)
L-cancel
Up smash (2)
Turn around
JC Grab (2)
Up throw
Dash
Up smash (2)
Move left
Shine (2)
Jump
Move left
N-air
L-cancel
Shine (2)
Jump
Fast fall
Move left
Shine (2)
Jump
B-air (2)
Fast fall
L-cancel
Jump right
Double jump
Fast fall
Dash right
Dash Left
Pivot Grab (2)
Jab
Dash
Shuffled N-air right (4)
Shine (2)
Short hop right (2)
Turn around
Dash
Up smash (2)

58

-
Wavedash left (3)
Dash left
Dash right
SHuffled u-air (5)
Dash right, dash left
Shuffled u-air (5)
Shine (2)
Shuffled n-air (4)
Shine (2)
Shuffled d-air (5)
Shine (2)
Jump
Shine (2)
Jump
Waveland left (2)
Dash left
Jump
Fast fall
Dash left
Dash Right
Wavedash left (3)
Jump
Move left off ledge
Firefox ledg ecancel (2)
Jump
Move right
D-air
Fastfall
L-cancel to shield
Spot dodge
Full hop fast fell dair L cancel (5)
Shine
JUmp
Move left
Fast fall
Jump
Neutral Air
L-Cancel
Shine (2)
Jump
Shine (2)
Jump
Move Right
Fast fall
Jump
Fast fell L-cancelled N-air (3)
SHine (2)
Fast fell L-cancelled B-air (5)
Jump
Move left
Fast fall
Down
Shine
Jump
Fast fell L-canceled Nair (3)
Wavedash left (3)

97

End time 1:05

Total actions: 311

311 x (60/62) = 301 apm for Axe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AvxvNjnHJk

Some brief notes: Yes, 301 apm is insanely high and yes, I counted actions differently than you guys all did, but it should work out to be the same. Axe never really stood still, especially between stocks, and never had to do much recovering making his APM much higher than that of most other players.

Also, Fox is a much faster character and requires a much higher APM than Captain Falcon, so using Captain Falcon to compare APM with other games (if that's even a valid comparison) is a poor choice in character :p
 

Grunt

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i did one for Silent Wolf a while ago. i can't find the txt file, but it was 2xx, almost 300 apm.
 

RockCrock

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Excellent job, Phoenix! Your tabulations are very precise and detailed, I absolutely love it.

Wow, 300 is very impressive. The fact that Axe rarely got hit probably has a large impact on his APM. The match was so one-sided, that Axe never really had to slow down from taking damage. Axe's opponent didn't have a single succesful combo, which would take a big chunck out of Axe's APM. That being said, I would be very surprised if Axe could reach a similar APM vs. if he were facing a player of equal abilities.

Also, Axe had a couple low percent kills, causing the match to be very breif. If Axe didn't get those quick kills, what is the likelihood that his APM would be the same? Do you think he could maintain the same rate of actions over a greater period of time? Dealing more percent requires more inputs, and extends the duration of the match. If you look at Axe's first kill, he did 71% to gg7, and killed him just 13 seconds after the match had started. In those 13 seconds Axe had 46 inputs. So if you calculate the APM up until the time of Axe's first kill, the result is 212 APM. For Axe's second kill, he only did 27% damage to gg7 in 11 seconds. And 73 inputs during those 11 seconds. Axe's APM for his second kill is almost twice that of his previous; a blistering 398 APM. The fact that Axe was able to pull off multiple low percent kills leads me to believe that this match is probably not a good predictor of a sustainable and accurate APM.

Axe's APM in this match is most likely a statistical outlier because of the match's one-sidedness and the spikes in APM due to quick, low-percent kills. If paired with a tougher opponent, I would expect Axe's APM to be lower than 300.

Once again, Excellent job, Phoenix. I will be adding your contribution to the first post.
 

Phoenix~Lament

Smash Ace
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Thanks RockCrock :D

But yeah, Axe's match is extremely concise and concentrated with mainly offensive techniques (which generate a lot more APM than defensive/recovering techniques) so it's definitely way above the norm.

However, it still shows that Smash's APM can reach high enough levels (on rare occasions) to offer a valid comparison between the technique, speed, and finesse required between, say, Starcraft and SSBM.
 

Pi

Smash Hero
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Lol
I want to see a samus/peach APM
._.
Maybe I will calculate one
Lol! I should do a darkmike vs jiggs match
 

PB&J

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rrrrrrrrrrroooooooooooooooooooooooooooooccccccccccccccckkkkkkkkkkkkkccccccccroooooooooooooook


i want to see how many i have.. i was smash-sterbating yesterday and was looking really fast nd i want to see how fast i really am
 

Had0

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At my computer
I almost want to start tabulating data for you guys. This is just too cool, I really want to see how this compares to other competitive games, specifically typical fighter games.
 

ANYSKY

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 1, 2009
Messages
19
It's interesting, but APM in SSBM really just doesn't matter ;/

Someone mentioned this earlier, but a large part of why SC players have programs that calculate APM is because there's so much that needs to be done at the same time that there's actually a purpose to having high APM. Not saying you don't need to input actions quickly in melee, but in all honesty it just doesn't matter.

APM in SC can be an indicator of how much a player can do at a given time, while in melee it's not that big of a deal. If you can do an AT in melee, you can do an AT. It doesn't really matter how fast you have to be in order to do it.

And I feel like it's a lot harder to hit higher APM in SC than SSBM. Mainly because the buttons and control sticks are all there. When you do an AT, the buttons are never going to move. in SC, even if the keyboard buttons are all there, there's a lot more space in between the hotkeys as well as the SLIGHT (<- note sarcasm) setback of needing ridiculously fast/accurate mouse clicks. Trying to get an HT into position to psi storm in the middle of some 4-5 control groups of lots/goons/HT while trying to position well against dark swarm and trying to flank properly with zlots and then doing everything all over again as the other player micros his units. At the same time making an expansion, controlling your shuttle reaver so you dont get butt****ed by ultras, making units out of 14 gateways, constantly making workers, scouting (watching for drops, builds, proxy builds, fake builds, fake proxy builds, crap theyre sending to your base to harass, crap theyre pretending to send to your base to harass so you play more defensively letting them gain map control, etc), fending off an actual harass, fighting another small skirmish halfway across the map, the list goes on. There's so much more crap to do at any given time in a competitive SC game that it's not surprising professional players (esp Terran) can peak at 500/600 apm with minimal spam. Just watch an FPVod and unless you've played COMPETITIVE SC before, you'll probably have no clue wtf is going on because the screen changes every 2 seconds (actually, you probably wont know wtf is going on anyways cause just think about it, 300 APM is 6 actions per second. In SSBM, that might be a SHDL. In SC, that's 3-6 seperate commands being sent, so it might be: "build a worker, move HT over a bit so it doesnt get butt****ed, send shuttle over, psi storm, flank with zlots")

There's also the fact that SC games can last anywhere from 10 minutes to 2 hours (with pro players keeping a consistent 300+ APM (250+ for games that drag on) the entire time). The 300+ APM SSBM games were what? 4 and a half minutes? PLus those are among the faster melee players I'm assuming. 300 in SC is an average.
 

Doctor X

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@anysky:

500-600 APM sustained as an average throughout a whole game is unheard of, even in SC. Peak APM is something entirely different. If we picked out the most APM-intensive set of actions in SSBM (maybe Shiz's doubleshines) I'm sure it'd be well above 300.

Also, SSBM isn't nearly as much about AT's as people think. Reaction time, experience, and precision are key. Maintaining control of a match in top-level play requires you to be fast, and not just for the sake of doing AT's.

I do agree that high APM is more difficult to achieve in SC without spam. The main reason for this is multitasking. Without incredible amounts of experience or intensive training most people have a tendency to shut down when the number of tasks grows. Your brain naturally wants to pause and think so it can make sure you don't forget anything. Even with pros, you'll sometimes see APM fall a bit in late game.
 

Mogwai

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I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
500-600 APM sustained as an average throughout a whole game is unheard of, even in SC.
not unheard of, just super duper rare.

I know I've seen games with by.hero having 500+ sustained APM...

that being said, he'd be better off with 150 less APM if he just used the first 350 the way Jaedong uses his, but pro-SC players can have silly APM if they put their minds to it.


anyway, the comparison is cute, but the fact remains that we are comparing apples to oranges here. high apm in smash means that you play Fox or Falco and are capable of very fluid motion with your character. high apm in starcraft typically means that you can manage more situations simultaneously (if we discount spam). *shrugs* I mean this is cool and all and I don't wanna see this topic die, but I think the less you try to compare what you're finding out about smash APM to other games, the better.
 
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