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Aphorisms and Distinctions

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Wittgenstein

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That's what just about every intro to philosophy student who's read Russell, Wittgenstein or any of the other of the contemporary positivists says. :p (i.e. undermining the vast importance of language and rigor)

The major flaw of being a philosophy student: you're taught to think like the progenitors.
I'm not entirely sure what you think rigor is. I'm glad that you're aware of the Vast Importance of your own academic paradigm though. I've never been told about the Real Way Things Are by an undergraduate thinker with such important ideas before!

Hold on. I just had an idea. Why don't you back your Important Ideas up with some Important Evidence? At the moment they're sounding a little bit like masturbatory diatribe.
 

Wittgenstein

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Also quit mischaracterising me. I am a pissed off zombie philosopher on the internet, not a philosophy student. Death is not an event in life: we do not live to experience death. If we take eternity to mean not infinite temporal duration but timelessness, then eternal life belongs to those who live in the present.
 

Vermanubis

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I'm not entirely sure what you think rigor is. I'm glad that you're aware of the Vast Importance of your own academic paradigm though. I've never been told about the Real Way Things Are by an undergraduate thinker with such important ideas before!

Hold on. I just had an idea. Why don't you back your Important Ideas up with some Important Evidence? At the moment they're sounding a little bit like masturbatory diatribe.
Stopped reading there.

The idea of evidence in epistemology is silly. One need only examine a thought manifest to see the very basic truth of what I'm saying. Are you suggesting that higher-terminology isn't molecular and furthermore, that computational reducibility isn't the product of compressed information? :p

If you insist on "evidence" though, I'll ask you to do the same thing I asked someone to earlier: plan your day out without thinking in words. Try to dissect my argument without thinking in words. This alone is sufficient enough to prove that language is entirely necessary for high-level cognition.

I don't know who you are, but you're obviously a dude who mistook me as arrogant and wanted to subvert the blog by intellectually dominating me. At the risk you couldn't, you made the alt.
 

frotaz37

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I mean ****, if I got cornered in an argument where I found myself suggesting that what I deem important is objectively important, I would stop reading there too.

All this self glorification is making me want to throw up.
 

Vermanubis

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I mean ****, if I got cornered in an argument where I found myself suggesting that what I deem important is objectively important, I would stop reading there too.

All this self glorification is making me want to throw up.
The entire thread, you've done nothing but bemoan the use of technical terminology on the premise that it makes you feel intellectually inferior. Be a little more open-minded.

This is true for a student of anything.
It's really not. If it were, we'd have reached intellectual stagnation a long, long time ago. It's alternative thinking that discourages intellectual equilibrium; not premising all of your thoughts off of others'. If Kurt Godel didn't question Bertrand Russell's thinking, we'd still have naive set theory. If Aristotle's thinking wasn't challenged, we'd still be in the astronomical dark ages. Anyone who's serious about knowledge doesn't look to their predecessors and go "welp, sounds good to me." They examine it themselves and determine it.
 

Wittgenstein

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I mean ****, if I got cornered in an argument where I found myself suggesting that what I deem important is objectively important, I would stop reading there too.

All this self glorification is making me want to throw up.
Quite. You gotta respect the defence mechanisms though. Could probably maintain that s/he was a frog for several hours without even noticing a problem. Tempted to poke holes in the computational stuff (i'm pretty up on my computability theory for a zombie) but instead I'm gonna stick in character and say it seems to me that, in every culture, I come across a chapter headed "Wisdom." And then I know exactly what is going to follow: "Vanity of vanities, all is vanity."
 

Wittgenstein

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It's really not. If it were, we'd have reached intellectual stagnation a long, long time ago. It's alternative thinking that discourages intellectual equilibrium; not premising all of your thoughts off of others'.
Yessss it's a Magic Creative Thought Powers person. I have been looking for one of these. Pokeball, go!
 

Vermanubis

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Quite. You gotta respect the defence mechanisms though. Could probably maintain that s/he was a frog for several hours without even noticing a problem. Tempted to poke holes in the computational stuff (i'm pretty up on my computability theory for a zombie) but instead I'm gonna stick in character and say it seems to me that, in every culture, I come across a chapter headed "Wisdom." And then I know exactly what is going to follow: "Vanity of vanities, all is vanity."
By all means, poke holes in it.

I'd also like you to answer my questions/respond to my challenges/responses. You keep substituting quips for responses. I've yet to see you provide one counterargument. Thus far, we have queued up:

-I'm wrong in my argument that language is paramount to cognition of any significance.
-I'm wrong in my argument that algorithms are computationally efficient.
-I'm wrong in my argument that technical terms aren't analogous to algorithms.
-I'm wrong in my argument that understanding of a concept isn't begotten through an examination of its properties.
 

Wittgenstein

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If Kurt Godel didn't question Bertrand Russell's thinking, we'd still have naive set theory.
this is the best and most incorrect statement about the recent history of mathematics i have ever heard.

also CLEARLY i am a quip-oriented joke account and am not going to engage in a serious argument. your entire posting style revolves around wording things so poorly, using so many strawmen, and introducing so much jargon that engaging with it is too time-expensive. since (like most people), I have washing to do and tax accountants to murder, and hot pokers to brandish, I will not engage with you with any real intent to explain myself. instead i will use posturing to distance myself from the issues at hand and namedrop various concepts i like like "oh, haven't you heard?" sort of like what you're doing, really!

i completely refuse to explain myself whatsoever. i'm trying to trick you into explaining me to yourself. nothing is so difficult as not deceiving oneself.
 

Vermanubis

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this is the best and most incorrect statement about the recent history of mathematics i have ever heard.

also CLEARLY i am a quip-oriented joke account and am not going to engage in a serious argument. your entire posting style revolves around wording things so poorly, using so many strawmen, and introducing so much jargon that engaging with it is too time-expensive. since (like most people), I have washing to do and tax accountants to murder, and hot pokers to brandish, I will not engage with you with any real intent to explain myself. instead i will use posturing to distance myself from the issues at hand and namedrop various concepts i like like "oh, haven't you heard?" sort of like what you're doing, really!

i completely refuse to explain myself whatsoever. i'm trying to trick you into explaining me to yourself. nothing is so difficult as not deceiving oneself.
Took you about 20 minutes to write that?

Looks like we're done here, then. I'll take that as a confession. I'd be more than happy to continue and maybe even learn something if you're so intent on proving me wrong, but... that's obviously not gonna happen.

Edit: You are right though, I totally blundered on the naive set theory thing. It was Russell who pointed out Cantor's flaws, not Godel who did Russell's. My bad.

@SC: Thanks, dude. I'm glad at least someone realizes that I'm aiming in the opposite direction of pretense.
 

frotaz37

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The entire thread, you've done nothing but bemoan the use of technical terminology on the premise that it makes you feel intellectually inferior. Be a little more open-minded.
No, it doesn't make me feel intellectually inferior at all. The problem isn't that somebody is making others feel intellectually inferior, the problem is that they're trying to make others feel intellectually inferior in the first place. I am usually unaffected by such pathetic ploys to establish dominance because it's so pathetic that if it wasn't so pretentious it would be completely hilarious.

I see what you're trying to do by painting me as a whining victim who got his feelings hurt, but come on, that's not where I'm coming from and you know it.

Quite. You gotta respect the defence mechanisms though. Could probably maintain that s/he was a frog for several hours without even noticing a problem. Tempted to poke holes in the computational stuff (i'm pretty up on my computability theory for a zombie) but instead I'm gonna stick in character and say it seems to me that, in every culture, I come across a chapter headed "Wisdom." And then I know exactly what is going to follow: "Vanity of vanities, all is vanity."
Yeah, it never ceases to amaze me how many supposedly clever disguises people will create for their own vanity.
 

Smooth Criminal

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AV is pretty good at this alternate account business.

And I don't think Verma is condescending to you at all, Frotaz. You're not whining, per se, but you are being rather bullheaded about it all. He has every right to call you out on that.

No disrespect intended. I just don't see why it's vanity or conceit, from my end.

Smooth Criminal
 

Vermanubis

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No, it doesn't make me feel intellectually inferior at all. The problem isn't that somebody is making others feel intellectually inferior, the problem is that they're trying to make others feel intellectually inferior in the first place. I am usually unaffected by such pathetic ploys to establish dominance because it's so pathetic that if it wasn't so pretentious it would be completely hilarious.

I see what you're trying to do by painting me as a whining victim who got his feelings hurt, but come on, that's not where I'm coming from and you know it.



Yeah, it never ceases to amaze me how many supposedly clever disguises people will create for their own vanity.

You caught me. I made this blog to let everyone know how smart I am, not because I enjoy jotting my thoughts down and sharing them.

I choose not to dilute my language usage because what you call accessible, I call unnecessarily egalitarian and condescending to the audience's intellect--doing nothing but enforcing the audience's presupposition that they can't understand something because it's "too challenging." Assuming that my choice to challenge those who are willing to be challenged is pretense is just as unfair to me as you think my usage of language is to you.

Did I mention I'm really smart? Did you read the OP? All those big words mean "I'm smart."

:p

@SC: Thanks, dude. I'm glad at least someone realizes that being condescending couldn't be more opposite to my objective. -_-
 

frotaz37

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I understand every word you have used so far in this thread and yet I still find the things you say to be pretentious. It's not just people who don't understand that it bothers, either.

How hard is this to understand? Purposely making something challenging because you think that people will somehow benefit from the challenge of deciphering your nonsense is UNBELIEVABLY pretentious (unless you're making a lesson plan). Nobody likes a person who assumes the role of teacher and treats others like students who need to be challenged for their own benefit. Remember the part where you were spouting off about the vast importance of your personal interests? As if you've attained some higher level of intellect/consciousness because you can place definitions on a series of words?

Not only that, assuming that the words you use are even complex enough to challenge people is pretentious as it is.

The problem isn't that you enjoy using technical terminology. The problem is the attitude that comes with it.
 

Vermanubis

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I understand every word you have used so far in this thread and yet I still find the things you say to be pretentious. It's not just people who don't understand that it bothers, either.

How hard is this to understand? Purposely making something challenging because you think that people will somehow benefit from the challenge of deciphering your nonsense is UNBELIEVABLY pretentious (unless you're making a lesson plan). Nobody likes a person who assumes the role of teacher and treats others like students who need to be challenged for their own benefit. Remember the part where you were spouting off about the vast importance of your personal interests? As if you've attained some higher level of intellect/consciousness because you can place definitions on a series of words?

The problem isn't that you enjoy using technical terminology. The problem is the attitude that comes with it.
That's your own perception. I didn't say I was assuming the role of teacher--I said I was assuming the role of a guy who chose to write to an audience who was interested in pursuing a challenging topic, because it is. Were I to purport that it was easy, then I'd seem pretentious, too. Can I win? As for the "vast importance" of personal interests, it's not my personal interest--it's fact. Language is factually important.

You just don't seem to get the point of the blog. At all. Instead of looking for clarification, you load the trebuchets and are ready to unload on me with both barrels. With this in mind, if anyone's filled with pretense, I'd say it's you.
 

Vermanubis

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My brain is in so much pain.
Clearly you have an issue with me saying that. Care to tell me how language doesn't play a pivotal role in almost everything we do? I'd really like to talk about the topic rather than how much you dislike me because of a preconceived notion that I'm a vainglorious lover of self.
 

frotaz37

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I don't dislike you, I just dislike all the ridiculous things you think and say.

You realize importance is completely subjective? Even if language does play a huge role in almost everything we do, to say it's factually important says to me that you have no idea what the definition of the word fact is, and that you believe that what you think is important is not only objectively important, but that it should be important to everyone.

Maybe instead of focusing on big words you should focus on the simple ones, like the word fact.

I'm giving up though.
YOU WIN.
PERFECT.
 

Vermanubis

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I don't dislike you, I just dislike all the ridiculous things you think and say.

You realize importance is completely subjective? Even if language does play a huge role in almost everything we do, to say it's factually important says to me that you have no idea what the definition of the word fact is, and that you believe that what you think is important is not only objectively important, but that it should be important to everyone.

Maybe instead of focusing on big words you should focus on the simple ones, like the word fact.

I'm giving up though.
YOU WIN.
PERFECT.
You're just playing semantics now. Anything can be "subjective," but to what reasonable degree? Assuming we can agree that communicating with others is important and that thinking is important, then language is important. You can't justify your stance like that.
 

ciaza

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I should have started lurking this place years before I lurked the DH.

It's so much more ****ing amusing.
 

El Nino

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it's that technical language arms one with the ability to examine even the most trying and hidden properties of a concept which, in a two-way commitment to technical specificity, enhances communication more than one could possibly imagine.
I get what you're saying, but basically technical terminology exists as a form of shorthand. It's a pragmatic solution. Pi = ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter, or ~ 3.14....... etc.

But your ability to use "Pi" correctly hinges on an understanding that ultimately gets broken down into simplified language. You must know the simple break down of "circle," "ratio," "circumference" and "diameter." And changes are, your knowledge of a "circle" is just a visual impression, rather than the verbal definition. "Pi" is the word that merely recalls that bundle of plain language.

So, obviously, there are benefits to using technical terms in scholarly journals or wherever they are warranted. But I wouldn't say that the ability to use them denotes any specific degree of intellect, necessarily.

Plain language eventually devolves into analogies and analogies devolve into chaos.
Based on academic papers I've read, they are easier to understand when plain language is used throughout except in situations where a concept takes too many words to explain or is commonly known in the field (ie. "evolution" in a biology paper), in which a complex term is better suited. But those situations occur sporadically and tend not to apply to the article consistently as a whole.

If that particular question seems too absurd or out of left field, then a simpler one: can you <succinctly> define multi-layered concepts such as "maturity," "love," or "intellect"?
Can you non-succinctly define those concepts?

By this reasoning that it's only a burden on the reader, the same could be said for someone who pursues physical fitness. If you want to be ripped, you have to work for it, and not everybody has to be ripped, because some aren't willing/interested enough to invest the time into it. A subject of this nature is meant to be challenging, and I trust the audience's competence enough to be able to read about it. It's by challenging yourself that you earn understanding, not by picking up a "_____ for Dummies" book that undermines the intellect of both the reader and the integrity of the subject.
Lol. Watch yourself there. Analogies lead to chaos. ;)

You have a good point, but I think that if I'm reading a biological research paper, I won't have time to look up words that only a philosophy major would know, and I'm sure the same works in reverse. Similarly, if I'm doing my taxes, I really don't have time to be pulling up the thesaurus. I'm going to need a simple, point by point bulletin with bright arrows telling me where to plug in the numbers, or else the IRS will show up at my door to punch me in the ****.

If you want to get ripped, you have to start with the smaller weights before moving on to the larger ones. If you strain a muscle the first time, you might never want to lift again.
 

SuperBowser

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Whoops, I kind of forgot I posted in this topic. Been a while.

El Nino kind of took the words out my mouth. Funnily enough, I think El Nino is one of the best posters on this message board and he rarely uses complex language to get his point across.

I'll just respond to two things:

You used no less than 6 technical terms in there. Do you realize how much longer it would've taken you to write that without those extremely specific terms?
That wasn't the point of the paragraph you responded to. If you'd like I can replace the words with simpler ones for you: "heart problem", "genetic disorder". It wouldn't degrade the message of that paragraph one bit. That you did not attempt to refute my leads me to believe you accept my assertion: it is very possible to get across difficult concepts to a layperson without using technical language without a)degrading the message or b)spending a needlessly large amount of time. Arguably, you can spend less time. We see this all the time in the real world. El Nino provided more examples above.

As for not understand the topic, that's the opposite. By definition, if you can define a concept in technical language, you understand it. If you can do this, you can no doubt explain in more social terms, however, it's not guaranteed that the two parties will be on the same wavelength, due to differing connotations of poorly-defined terms. What one word signifies and makes sense through to me, could be completely separate from the other person. This leads to probably the most irritating and tedious aspect of debate: epanorthosis--constant restating of what one "meant" to say.
Perhaps you are strawmanning me here :) I agree if you are talking about intelligence, it is imperative to agree a definition. I never said this was not the case. Does a definition for intelligence in a discussion regarding intelligence qualify as a "complex term"?! Certain terms always need defining at the start of a discussion. My issue is with the superfluous, not the bare minimum to hold a meaningful conversation. You know I study science, so you know I value definitions.

I've spent more years in the education system than I'd like to count. As have many of my course mates. By coincidence, I had a relevant discussion with a few people on my current placement last week. Medical students do not value the most knowledgable person in a subject. We do not care if the teacher is a world-renowned professor that knows every intricacy of a disease. We do care if our teacher: prepares adequately; understands the level of their students; explains terms we may not understand without prompting (instead of assuming students will ask); keeps an interactive discourse between student and teacher if it is appropriate; possesses the ability to explain difficult concepts without resorting to meaningless jargon. Knowledge is important, but it is far, far, far from the only quality necessary to hold a productive discourse between two or more people. I don't think any medical student, or any student for that matter, would value raw knowledge above any of the other things I mentioned.

----

I had a long dissertation, oral presentation and viva last year. Aside from killing any chance of pursuing an academic career, I used comparatively simplistic language throughout. I got a good final mark. This was partly because people valued my ability to put across difficult concepts in language appropriate to my audience (people not necessarily experts in my dissertation subject). This does not mean my introduction, methods, results, analysis or conclusion were ever unclear.
 

Vermanubis

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I get what you're saying, but basically technical terminology exists as a form of shorthand. It's a pragmatic solution. Pi = ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter, or ~ 3.14....... etc.
That's one aspect of it, yeah.

But your ability to use "Pi" correctly hinges on an understanding that ultimately gets broken down into simplified language. You must know the simple break down of "circle," "ratio," "circumference" and "diameter." And changes are, your knowledge of a "circle" is just a visual impression, rather than the verbal definition. "Pi" is the word that merely recalls that bundle of plain language.
That's exactly one of the things I said in the OP. Technical terminology is contingent upon more atomic words, and the most fundamental words are extensional in that which their definition is an object. The fact that technical terminology is built upon is only speaks more to the fact that what I'm saying is true, especially from a programming standpoint. A formal language which a script is written in has to have a set of letters under which it operates, but no elegant program will run efficiently if it encumbers itself with discrete, one-by-one computations.

So, obviously, there are benefits to using technical terms in scholarly journals or wherever they are warranted. But I wouldn't say that the ability to use them denotes any specific degree of intellect, necessarily.
Forgive the directness of this, but you're probably the 10th person to completely ignore the most compelling part of my argument. There are more benefits to knowing and using such terms than just scholarly writing.

The ability to understand and grasp information is begotten by a strong understanding of words and how different varieties of words imply very different properties of what may ostensibly be the same thing. In the field of mathematics in particular, to successfully understand pure mathematical concepts, you have to have an extensive word-base, and a fine understanding of each word, as each word denotes a catastrophically similar property of two mathematical objects. Again: understanding is the ability to atomically reconstruct a concept. And before you're tempted to say that's not true, go ask an advanced calculus student if they can provide a simple proof for the consistency of infinitesimals. I guarantee many won't be able to, because they have an axiomatic understanding of calculus that was attained by trial and error rather than rigorous examination and distinctions.

It all returns to understanding.


Based on academic papers I've read, they are easier to understand when plain language is used throughout except in situations where a concept takes too many words to explain or is commonly known in the field (ie. "evolution" in a biology paper), in which a complex term is better suited. But those situations occur sporadically and tend not to apply to the article consistently as a whole.

Two things.

1. An "easy-to-read" presentation will give the reader an "idea" of how evolution works, but it won't help them to understand it. Basic words give provide pictures; technical terms provide forms and structures. A picture is worth 1,000 words--formal cohesion is worth 10,000.

2. This is probably the least of my points to contradict.



Can you non-succinctly define those concepts?
I have definitions I personally like, but that's not at all my point. My point is that words like those lack the definitive rigor that is needed to be a useful word outside of social contexts. They're ambiguous. Did you notice earlier I didn't reciprocate your usage of "intellect"? That's why. Intellect is an undefined term because it paints a picture that not everyone will interpret uniformly.



Lol. Watch yourself there. Analogies lead to chaos. ;)
That applies for encumbering an explanation with analogies, not demonstrating an error in someone's reasoning. You took what I said completely out of context.

You have a good point, but I think that if I'm reading a biological research paper, I won't have time to look up words that only a philosophy major would know, and I'm sure the same works in reverse. Similarly, if I'm doing my taxes, I really don't have time to be pulling up the thesaurus. I'm going to need a simple, point by point bulletin with bright arrows telling me where to plug in the numbers, or else the IRS will show up at my door to punch me in the ****.
Everyone keeps citing research papers, which couldn't be farther from my point. Efficiently expressing one's self and personal pursuits are my argument; not to write essays give people an "idea" of what the subject is about. Whenever I read science journals/magazines (and several people agree with me), I put them down after reading, feeling like I learned nothing. So much vital information is sacrificed for the sake of accessibility and simplicity that for any person seriously interested in said topic, it'll be a waste of time to read. I stand by my original point: people who refuse to pursue lexical diversity of any kind will have unnecessary trouble expressing their thoughts and a harder time understanding foreign concepts because making distinctions without the adequate means to do so is a futile exercise.

If someone doesn't care about these things, then this isn't directed at them. This is directed at anybody who is serious about learning and understanding things beyond a trial-and-error intuition.

If you want to get ripped, you have to start with the smaller weights before moving on to the larger ones. If you strain a muscle the first time, you might never want to lift again.
Though not exclusive to philosophy, let me leave you with a quote from a friend of mine to another friend of mine:

"I would have never considered myself capable of pursuing logic, mathematics, science or philosophy (I grew up in a time when women weren’t really encouraged to take up these subjects), but I had such a desire to understand what you were saying that discipline and will followed. When I asked you for recommendations to begin a study of philosophy, you could have recommended something accessible like Philosophy for Dummies, and I would have read it and then put it in the pile of all the other banal translations of subjects I’ve studied over the years."

Just something to think about.
 

Vermanubis

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That wasn't the point of the paragraph you responded to. If you'd like I can replace the words with simpler ones for you: "heart problem", "genetic disorder". It wouldn't degrade the message of that paragraph one bit. That you did not attempt to refute my leads me to believe you accept my assertion: it is very possible to get across difficult concepts to a layperson without using technical language without a)degrading the message or b)spending a needlessly large amount of time. Arguably, you can spend less time. We see this all the time in the real world. El Nino provided more examples above.
I accept that assertion under the conditions I previously mentioned: social contexts. And I disagree; it would degrade the message quite a bit in a meaningful scenario. I don't see how you can justify "heart problem" as an acceptable substitute for congenital heart failure (I think that's what you said before).

And I will agree that it's possible to impart an idea of what's going to the audience through simpler terms, but I won't agree that it won't compromise the integrity of the concept. I argue for articulating truly complex subjects; not how to amuse my audience. In the medical field, you're piecing together observations and documenting them--it's not a <simple> field by any stretch, but it's a field of a completely different type of complexity than that of which I speak.





Perhaps you are strawmanning me here :)
How so?

I agree if you are talking about intelligence, it is imperative to agree a definition. I never said this was not the case. Does a definition for intelligence in a discussion regarding intelligence qualify as a "complex term"?! Certain terms always need defining at the start of a discussion. My issue is with the superfluous, not the bare minimum to hold a meaningful conversation. You know I study science, so you know I value definitions.
Refer to what I said to El Nino.

I've spent more years in the education system than I'd like to count. As have many of my course mates. By coincidence, I had a relevant discussion with a few people on my current placement last week. Medical students do not value the most knowledgable person in a subject. We do not care if the teacher is a world-renowned professor that knows every intricacy of a disease. We do care if our teacher: prepares adequately; understands the level of their students; explains terms we may not understand without prompting (instead of assuming students will ask); keeps an interactive discourse between student and teacher if it is appropriate; possesses the ability to explain difficult concepts without resorting to meaningless jargon. Knowledge is important, but it is far, far, far from the only quality necessary to hold a productive discourse between two or more people. I don't think any medical student, or any student for that matter, would value raw knowledge above any of the other things I mentioned.
Some disciplines demand more specificity than medicine. While I can agree that medicine, as an applied science, values application over theory, you're projecting medicine onto every other discipline.


I had a long dissertation, oral presentation and viva last year. Aside from killing any chance of pursuing an academic career, I used comparatively simplistic language throughout. I got a good final mark. This was partly because people valued my ability to put across difficult concepts in language appropriate to my audience (people not necessarily experts in my dissertation subject). This does not mean my introduction, methods, results, analysis or conclusion were ever unclear.
What I said to El Nino: Whenever I read science journals/magazines (and several people agree with me), I put them down after reading, feeling like I learned nothing. So much vital information is sacrificed for the sake of accessibility and simplicity that for any person seriously interested in said topic, it'll be a waste of time to read. Yes, such accessibility is good for marketing and giving someone something to daydream about, but in the end, such writing is rarely productive.

Here's another quote from what I said to El Nino:

Though not exclusive to philosophy, let me leave you with a quote from a friend of mine to another friend of mine:

"I would have never considered myself capable of pursuing logic, mathematics, science or philosophy (I grew up in a time when women weren’t really encouraged to take up these subjects), but I had such a desire to understand what you were saying that discipline and will followed. When I asked you for recommendations to begin a study of philosophy, you could have recommended something accessible like Philosophy for Dummies, and I would have read it and then put it in the pile of all the other banal translations of subjects I’ve studied over the years."
Unclear and diluted aren't synonymous. As I said above, I'm not arguing for how to amuse an audience, I'm arguing for how to strive for greater personal understanding and efficient expression of thoughts. Relaying factual, self-evident information doesn't require the same degree of specificity as something that isn't self-evident.
 

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Help guys my vocabulary and intellect are both WAY TOO ADVANCED FOR SCIENCE.
I doubt anyone learns anything from them. Find me someone who reads science journals/magazines to learn rather than to be entertained. You learn as much from accessible science literature as you do from Star Trek. They're a perfect example of how presenting concepts in a deliberately accessible way is entertaining more than it is productive/enlightening.

By the way, contribute something else to the thread aside from sarcasm or you're outta here. :ganondorf:
 

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I'll step in for a second here Verm, that's not entirely true. I don't read magazines for learning, but they're incredibly useful for keeping a library of sorts to reference. The hard data combined with images is extremely useful to me for the purpose of certain discussions.

A reporter's first job is to report, not necessarily teach or entertain.

Now continue arguing folks, it's still a fun read.


Oh, and I liked what El Nino said, but the "succinct", "non-succinct" point is useless if you ask me. They're undefinable in nature, how you attempt to define them won't make a difference.
 

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I doubt anyone learns anything from them. Find me someone who reads science journals/magazines to learn rather than to be entertained. You learn as much from accessible science literature as you do from Star Trek.
Ironically I haven't read any of this thread, really, but this comment strikes me as disingenuous. You can't honestly be saying that science periodicals are no better than science fiction (in terms of educating on a particular theory, practice or invention.) And "accessible"... I mean, you can read scientific abstracts online, so access is limited only by one's ability to use google. Most abstracts follow a specific formula of which I'm sure you're aware, and though may be perhaps technical in nature, provide more than ample insight into the who what why when and where of a particular scientific method, achievement or discovery. To say no one learns anything from them is frankly incorrect. They're the basis by which people learn who are not directly involved in the project themselves; the veritable purpose of the abstract to begin with - to educate the non-educated.
 

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Ironically I haven't read any of this thread, really, but this comment strikes me as disingenuous. You can't honestly be saying that science periodicals are no better than science fiction (in terms of educating on a particular theory, practice or invention.) And "accessible"... I mean, you can read scientific abstracts online, so access is limited only by one's ability to use google. Most abstracts follow a specific formula of which I'm sure you're aware, and though may be perhaps technical in nature, provide more than ample insight into the who what why when and where of a particular scientific method, achievement or discovery. To say no one learns anything from them is frankly incorrect. They're the basis by which people learn who are not directly involved in the project themselves; the veritable purpose of the abstract to begin with - to educate the non-educated.
Let me rephrase: no one learns anything of value from them. I'll admit I spoke too broadly when I said you learn <nothing>, but I also said that for anybody seriously interested in learning about the topic it holds no value. If somebody legitimately wants to become competent in the field of relativity, they won't turn to a magazine to learn the necessary details.

I say this because <most> science magazines are published to muse and increase awareness of the world of science--not to be an academic reference point.
 

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Value is completely subjective. It's not some universal truth.
That's subjective, too, if we're playing semantics. :p

Value can be reasonably ascribed to things. In this case, academic value is pretty self-evident: something that enriches one's understanding.
 

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Let me rephrase: no one learns anything of value from them. I'll admit I spoke too broadly when I said you learn <nothing>, but I also said that for anybody seriously interested in learning about the topic it holds no value. If somebody legitimately wants to become competent in the field of relativity, they won't turn to a magazine to learn the necessary details.

I say this because <most> science magazines are published to muse and increase awareness of the world of science--not to be an academic reference point.
Actually, I'll grant that. Scientific American comes to mind. They're mainly interested in subscription sales, ad placements, ... money. Their best articles set the serious readers on a quest to learn more, while the average joe can come away with "hey, hon did you know they found a planet recently that has two suns? TWO SUNS!"

This realization however has piqued my own interest. What was it that this point was meant to reinforce? (forgive my utter laziness)
 
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