• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Aphorisms and Distinctions

Status
Not open for further replies.

Vermanubis

King of Evil
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
3,399
Location
La Grande, Oregon
NNID
Vermanubis
3DS FC
1564-2185-4386
:colorful::colorful:Link to original post: [drupal=4619]Aphorisms and Distinctions[/drupal]


This is a redo of the original text. I just want to go a little deeper regarding my previous blog "Aphorisms and Distinctions," and try to condense my point more briefly and directly about why technical terminology is, in some cases, very necessary, if not absolutely so.

The primary focus is the concept of intension, which is a term in semiotics (studies of signs, symbols and meaning) that means the concept which is being referred to, rather than the thing which is used to signify it. E.g. Vermanubis and Geoff both refer to the same thing: me. But they are different ways to signify different properties that indicate me.

Like any complex thing, there are multiple layers and within those multiple layers, a vastly interwoven network of meanings/correlations/implications. Technical terms are a package deal: propositions built from atomic particles to create an entirely new particle. When one skins language to a formal state, they can see plainly that words are messes of predicates, values and propositions; technical terms emerge to rectify the insufficient "propositional force" in "simple" language. In other words, anything that contains something that could be said to be "true" is a proposition, and atomic words can't always successfully construct a well-defined proposition due to conflicting intensions/meanings, or because they lack the implied meaning value that relationships of the properties contained within a given word made from several smaller ones create to spur new meanings and denote/cpnnote different things.

Example: consider the word sophistry and its meaning. Sophistry denotes (primary meaning; semantic) subtle errors in reasoning, but connotes (secondary meaning; implies) a particular method of reasoning: deceitful/equivocal. As we can see plainly, and hopefully agree, this word's meaning is at the very least two-fold and multi-layered, creating an efficient marriage of denotation and connotation to uniquely refer to a multifaceted concept. It proposes something that string of atomic words (or a "dumbed down" version) is not guaranteed to. It's a semiotic function, for every reference contained in the word (the word sophist being the signifier), a new proposition and from the different layers of propositional value (new implied meanings based on how the concepts bound in the word interact), new ideas/symbols/references with increasingly subtle differences and values that we can infer from the natures of that which are signified by the word, i.e. what is the nature of a sophist? This question highlights intensional disparities (i.e. things that may seem to uniquely indicate something, but only share properties with a closely related word and implies the concept based on context rather than directly referring to it) and identify new properties contained in more complex words that are more apt for expressing an idea/understanding an idea. Just as a mathematical equation is a proposition whose conclusion requires varying degrees of satisfaction depending on the specificity needed, so is a linguistic proposition.

Another example is if one is going to compose a masterful musical piece that modulates, mixes different tonalities, or, such as in jazz, steps out of key on purpose, they will need to know infinitely more about the technical aspects and music theory to understand how to make such a piece happen. One can't compose a masterful piece by note-by-note, as it'll eventually subtract from the broader objective of the song.

As things become more complex, new propositions need to be made, and lots of well-defined information needs to be contained into a usable package. A musical analogy would be an arpeggio sequence. One who's musically adept will know how to use arpeggio shapes in favor of composing note-for-note and the arpeggios, in an increasingly complex piece, will become atomic to an arpeggio progression and so forth. As complexity increases, the underpinnings need to be deftly placed so it can be continually and efficiently built upon.

This is why technical terminology is such a miraculous thing. It offers usable tools to express or consider complex concepts, and at a cognitive level, holds far more meaning and force than long strings of subatomic definitions like "one who intentionally employs subtle errors in reasoning for the sake of intellectual posturing" instead of just saying "sophistry." A neat example to mull over is to consider this: if you were defining a tree to someone outside of explicitly referring to the tree as "tree", how would they know that your definition of tree was not something else? That's the intensional conflict I spoke of earlier, and the very thing technical terminology exists to correct by combining several concepts into a uniform reference.
 

SuperBowser

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 29, 2006
Messages
1,331
Location
jolly old england. hohoho.
I use fairly basic vocabulary for written and spoken English. It's never done me harm and I was even complemented on my use of plain language to discuss difficult subjects last week! I think I have pretty good communication skills.

I think balance is important. I like the sentiment of your first post, but many of the words you use are rarely necessary in most contexts. Instead, such words risk undermining a person's position because the target audience may have no clue what the intended message is or even be made to feel stupid. The people that use language best are the ones that use it appropriately.
 

Vermanubis

King of Evil
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
3,399
Location
La Grande, Oregon
NNID
Vermanubis
3DS FC
1564-2185-4386
Without technical language, philosophy, math, a great deal of the arts and self-expression wouldn't exist as they do. My point isn't that that method of communication should be used in social settings, it's that technical language arms one with the ability to examine even the most trying and hidden properties of a concept which, in a two-way commitment to technical specificity, enhances communication more than one could possibly imagine. If not a two-way commitment, a personal commitment so that one can easily grasp complex concepts by condensing great deals of information into one term. If a two-way commitment between speaker and audience, it can be compared to a mathematician giving a presentation. The mathematician is going to do math, and is going to do math for those who are willing to commit to understanding math, rather than simplifying it for those who aren't. As I said before, humans think in language, and the more language you understand, the greater your ability to discern properties, and from the ability to discern properties, a greater understanding of things in general.

Plain language eventually devolves into analogies and analogies devolve into chaos. It has its place in social settings, definitely, but in the context of complex topics like logic/math/science, it's a fool's errand to hope things which aren't easily defined or referenced will cooperate with plain language.
 

SuperBowser

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 29, 2006
Messages
1,331
Location
jolly old england. hohoho.
Without technical language, philosophy, math, a great deal of the arts and self-expression wouldn't exist as they do. My point isn't that that method of communication should be used in social settings, it's that technical language arms one with the ability to examine even the most trying and hidden properties of a concept which, in a two-way commitment to technical specificity, enhances communication more than one could possibly imagine. If not a two-way commitment, a personal commitment so that one can easily grasp complex concepts by condensing great deals of information into one term.
I agree language is powerful. After all, it is how we construct our thoughts.

Plain language eventually devolves into analogies and analogies devolve into chaos.
Um, no it doesn't. Complex terms are defined by simpler words. I've always used plain language when speaking to others and always will. I rarely use analogies, even when discussing difficult subjects. :)
 

Vermanubis

King of Evil
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
3,399
Location
La Grande, Oregon
NNID
Vermanubis
3DS FC
1564-2185-4386
Um, no it doesn't. Complex terms are defined by simpler words. I've always used plain language when speaking to others and always will. I rarely use analogies, even when discussing difficult subjects. :)
I addressed the fact that simpler words don't contain the specificity needed to define difficult concepts.

If what you say is true, then I have a challenge for you! An age-old riddle called the Ship of Theseus. There are two ships. Ship 1 and Ship 2. Ship 2 springs a leak, so a piece from Ship 1 is used to patch it. This happens continually until every last bit of Ship 1 has been transplanted onto Ship 2. Ship 2 is now built out of pieces entirely from Ship 1. Proffer an argument that makes a distinction between Ship 2 and what was once Ship 1. What properties does Ship 2 possess that maintain its identity as Ship 2, despite being built entirely from Ship 1.

This is a riddle whose principle question of the metaphysical concept of what something <is> is relevant to higher mathematics and philosophy, so it's relevant in a lot of ways. It's a distinction that requires extraordinarily careful use of words lest it result in paradox.

If that particular question seems too absurd or out of left field, then a simpler one: can you <succinctly> define multi-layered concepts such as "maturity," "love," or "intellect"?
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
Administrator
BRoomer
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
22,906
Location
Milpitas, CA
NNID
SSBM_PLAYER
The mathematician is going to do math, and is going to do math for those who are willing to commit to understanding math, rather than simplifying it for those who aren't.
I believe that most of the community of Smashboards is here to discuss the titular video game, socialize, and otherwise communicate in a relatively relaxed environment; not listen to or present lectures requiring knowledge of various words that do not see regular use in a casual environment, and at times are even uncommon in their context.
 

Vermanubis

King of Evil
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
3,399
Location
La Grande, Oregon
NNID
Vermanubis
3DS FC
1564-2185-4386
I believe that most of the community of Smashboards is here to discuss the titular video game, socialize, and otherwise communicate in a relatively relaxed environment; not listen to or present lectures requiring knowledge of various words that do not see regular use in a casual environment, and at times are even uncommon in their context.
Which is why no one is forced to read this but those who're interested.
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
Administrator
BRoomer
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
22,906
Location
Milpitas, CA
NNID
SSBM_PLAYER
True though that may be for this blog, you opened it by claiming to use such a restrictively high level of vocabulary in more than just places it is meant for.
 

Vermanubis

King of Evil
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
3,399
Location
La Grande, Oregon
NNID
Vermanubis
3DS FC
1564-2185-4386
I didn't suggest that people should use technical terms in social contexts. Though I didn't explicitly state it, I implied that it should be reserved for debate/discourse/personal thought.
 

SuperBowser

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 29, 2006
Messages
1,331
Location
jolly old england. hohoho.
I addressed the fact that simpler words don't contain the specificity needed to define difficult concepts.
Of course simpler words do. You cannot define a complex word without using simpler ones. Therefore...

I'm a final year medical student. If I couldn't:

-explain complex procedures
-explain diseases and mechanisms and how these relate to a patient
-describe the role and action of drugs to a layperson
-convey statistics in a meaningful way to patients
-discuss life matters such as death, coping at home, feelings of isolation

I wouldn't be able to do my job, would I? I don't use analogies. I'd bet lots of people on these very message boards can provide detailed descriptions of concepts such as "love" without fancy terminology - case in point: hundreds of love songs.

The mathematician is going to do math, and is going to do math for those who are willing to commit to understanding math, rather than simplifying it for those who aren't.
Just realised you added this in through an edit. All I can say is that I strongly disagree. It's the exact attitude I wouldn't want to see in a researcher. Ever.
 

Vermanubis

King of Evil
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
3,399
Location
La Grande, Oregon
NNID
Vermanubis
3DS FC
1564-2185-4386
Of course simpler words do. You cannot define a complex word without using simpler ones. Therefore...
They don't. Words don't work like that. By that reasoning, what do the most atomic words simplify to? Indexes; signs; symbols. By reducing the effort exerted in identifying a symbol, you become a more effective thinker and speaker. As a final year medical student, you of all people should revel in the value that technical specificity offers. When someone says "facilitated diffusion" you know exactly what they're referring to. When someone says "the thing when the cell sticks out the receptor to receive the protein signal" they're saying the exact same thing as facilitated diffusion, but with unneeded strain and potential for misinterpretation.



I'm a final year medical student. If I couldn't:

-explain complex procedures
-explain diseases and mechanisms and how these relate to a patient
-describe the role and action of drugs to a layperson
-convey statistics in a meaningful way to patients
-discuss life matters such as death, coping at home, feelings of isolation

I wouldn't be able to do my job, would I? I don't use analogies.
Those aren't exactly circumstances in which you need technical specificity anyway. The patient has no need to explicitly know what's going on in their body--they only need a general idea.


I'd bet lots of people on these very message boards can provide detailed descriptions of concepts such as "love" without fancy terminology - case in point: hundreds of love songs.
Succinct means short, not detailed. Love songs aren't rigorous, and they make extended use of allegory and metaphor. But I'm not asking them for a description; I'm asking the one who maintains the position that technical rigor isn't necessary: you.

Just realised you added this in through an edit. All I can say is that I strongly disagree. It's the exact attitude I wouldn't want to see in a researcher. Ever.
Why should a concept be diluted and have its meaning compromised for the sake of someone who's probably not interested in it in the first place?
 

SuperBowser

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 29, 2006
Messages
1,331
Location
jolly old england. hohoho.
When someone says "facilitated diffusion" you know exactly what they're referring to. When someone says "the thing when the cell sticks out the receptor to receive the protein signal" they're saying the exact same thing as facilitated diffusion, but with unneeded strain and potential for misinterpretation.
It means the same thing. Is this not how you learned the definition of facilitated diffusion?

Those aren't exactly circumstances in which you need technical specificity anyway. The patient has no need to explicitly know what's going on in their body--they only need a general idea.
Um, no. There are lots of situations where it is vital to convey complex information. For example: if a post-menopausal woman should take HRT; if an 83 year old with AS and history of IHD and triple bypass operation should take surgical or medical management; if you are changing medical care to palliative care in a long-term cancer patient; to explain why a haemophiliac child must take certain precautions and how to handle emergencies; to explain to parents why their son has cystic fibrosis, what this means and what the future may hold for their child and any future children.

While some don't care, many people don't just want a "general idea". I certainly wouldn't. It's their life and their body and their decisions. They should have every piece of information they desire if they request it.

Love songs aren't rigorous, and they make extended use of allegory and metaphor. But I'm not asking them for a description; I'm asking the one who maintains the position that technical rigor isn't necessary: you.
I think a lot of people get a good idea of what "love" is from a song. Just because you view poems and metaphors beneath you doesn't make them any less valid.

Why should a concept be diluted and have its meaning compromised for the sake of someone who's probably not interested in it in the first place?
Because its meaning need not be compromised. Because you seem to hold the position the "uneducated masses" are not worthy of your knowledge. Because you falsely assume people are not interested. Because we are not all experts in every field we come across. Because there is no point in gaining knowledge in a subject if you cannot convey this new-found wisdom to anybody.

Researchers want people to learn about their work. I've completed a research project last year and I'm presenting it in a month's time at a conference. Being able to describe my study, its findings and future implications to a layperson without compromising the message are rather essential skills. The work would be meaningless otherwise. I mean, I don't know any researchers that hold the position you take =/

---

Just to clarify, I am not saying the use of technical words is bad. I agree with you, it's a very good thing! However, fanciful terms are not necessary to have a meaningful discussion about a subject when you speak to somebody. If you cannot explain something you have learned to a layperson it does not necessarily mean the message must be compromised or that they are not interested in what you are saying. It may well mean it is a skill you must work on or a sign you do not understand the topic yourself. The attitude "if they can't understand me, then they're not worth my time." is wrong.
 

Vermanubis

King of Evil
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
3,399
Location
La Grande, Oregon
NNID
Vermanubis
3DS FC
1564-2185-4386
It means the same thing. Is this not how you learned the definition of facilitated diffusion?
That's what I just said. But the former is extremely inefficient once the latter's been introduced. That's my entire argument is that technical language is meant to circumvent the inherent flaws of language. If you have to use a fair deal of words to express what should be a direct reference, then you're communicating ineffectively. In everyday life, that's not a big deal, but in matters of personal thought and understanding, it's vital. As I said with the algorithm analogy, the human mind only has so much computational power, which necessitates an algorithm. The algorithm(s) in this case is technical terminology.



Um, no. There are lots of situations where it is vital to convey complex information. For example: if a post-menopausal woman should take HRT; if an 83 year old with AS and history of IHD and triple bypass operation should take surgical or medical management; if you are changing medical care to palliative care in a long-term cancer patient; to explain why a haemophiliac child must take certain precautions and how to handle emergencies; to explain to parents why their son has cystic fibrosis, what this means and what the future may hold for their child and any future children.

While some don't care, many people don't just want a "general idea". I certainly wouldn't. It's their life and their body and their decisions. They should have every piece of information they desire if they request it.
You used no less than 6 technical terms in there. Do you realize how much longer it would've taken you to write that without those extremely specific terms?



I think a lot of people get a good idea of what "love" is from a song. Just because you view poems and metaphors beneath you doesn't make them any less valid.
I'm appalled by that assumption and even more so that you're substituting it for solid reasoning. Getting a "good idea" of love through the course of an entire literary piece isn't rigorous. It doesn't explicitly identify what the properties of love are, which precludes any ability to define love effectively or more intimately understand it. For the record, I'm a sucker for wordplay and poetry. I just recognize that it does no good for specific communication. If people communicated via poetry and song, we'd have barely made it past Mesopotamia.


Because its meaning need not be compromised. Because you seem to hold the position the "uneducated masses" are not worthy of your knowledge. Because you falsely assume people are not interested. Because we are not all experts in every field we come across. Because there is no point in gaining knowledge in a subject if you cannot convey this new-found wisdom to anybody.
You're making these outrageous assumptions that I'm putting others beneath me. I'm saying it pretty straightforward that it's not a matter of not appealing to those unfamiliar with the terms, rather, there's not an option to simplify a concept to the unfamiliar without running the risk of the meaning being lost or misinterpreted. Semiotics works in such a way that language syntax and biases can distort a word's connotation, unless that word is exceedingly specific by nature. There's no arguing that point, I'm sorry.

Researchers want people to learn about their work. I've completed a research project last year and I'm presenting it in a month's time at a conference. Being able to describe my study, its findings and future implications to a layperson without compromising the message are rather essential skills. The work would be meaningless otherwise. I mean, I don't know any researchers that hold the position you take =/
As stated above and as will be stated below, you're straw-manning my position.

Just to clarify, I am not saying the use of technical words is bad. I agree with you, it's a very good thing! However, fanciful terms are not necessary to have a meaningful discussion about a subject when you speak to somebody. If you cannot explain something you have learned to a layperson it does not necessarily mean the message must be compromised or that they are not interested in what you are saying. It may well mean it is a skill you must work on or a sign you do not understand the topic yourself. The attitude "if they can't understand me, then they're not worth my time." is wrong.
Having a meaningful conversation with someone and discussing things of which there is no universally accepted definition are very different. My position, which has been mutilated up to this point, has been that I'm not going to discuss what intelligence means with someone who's not willing to commit to technical definitions, lest our meanings and intentions depart and the discourse spiral downward into nothing but confusion, much like ours has thus far.

As for not understand the topic, that's the opposite. By definition, if you can define a concept in technical language, you understand it. If you can do this, you can no doubt explain in more social terms, however, it's not guaranteed that the two parties will be on the same wavelength, due to differing connotations of poorly-defined terms. What one word signifies and makes sense through to me, could be completely separate from the other person. This leads to probably the most irritating and tedious aspect of debate: epanorthosis--constant restating of what one "meant" to say.

I should probably clarify a bit myself just in case. My position is that technical language is paramount in the pursuit of knowledge and understanding of complex topics, and in discussing said topics without fear of having to constantly analogize or risk differed perceived meanings. I'm not positing a militant position wherein wordplay and social language should be ousted by any means.
 

Smooth Criminal

Da Cheef
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
13,576
Location
Hinckley, Minnesota
NNID
boundless_light
Plain language eventually devolves into analogies and analogies devolve into chaos.
Huh.

Prithee tell, good sir: From where does language emanate?

I'll give you a hint: Not all of it stems from a highfalutin' tongue.

Edit: I do enjoy reading your writing, by the way. No disrespect intended.

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnd your clarification decorticated my post's relevancy to nothing. Lol. I apologize, Verma.

Smooth Criminal
 

Vermanubis

King of Evil
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
3,399
Location
La Grande, Oregon
NNID
Vermanubis
3DS FC
1564-2185-4386
Huh.

Prithee tell, good sir: From where does language emanate?

I'll give you a hint: Not all of it stems from a highfalutin' tongue.

Edit: I do enjoy reading your writing, by the way. No disrespect intended.

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnd your clarification decorticated my post's relevancy to nothing. Lol. I apologize, Verma.

Smooth Criminal
LOL. Thanks, dude. Don't worry about it. :colorful:

I was pretty excited to get this finished and share it, but in that excitement, I overlooked an emphatic endorsement for technical language in scholarly contexts rather than general use lol.
 

Spelt

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
Messages
11,843
Your point would've been better made if you hadn't laced it with more technical terms. When trying to define something, people generally try to put it in the simplest terms that they can.

You're trying to teach someone how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich my making them drive across the ocean and pay a cook with the wrong currency to do it for them.
 

Vermanubis

King of Evil
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
3,399
Location
La Grande, Oregon
NNID
Vermanubis
3DS FC
1564-2185-4386
Your point would've been better made if you hadn't laced it with more technical terms. When trying to define something, people generally try to put it in the simplest terms that they can.

You're trying to teach someone how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich my making them drive across the ocean and pay a cook with the wrong currency to do it for them.
This is true, but should the person reading be willing to look up words they're not familiar with, the meaning becomes much easier to apprehend than if I cloyed it with allegories and explanations of the terms.
 

Spelt

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
Messages
11,843
But you wrote this because you wanted others to read it and see your point of view. Why should others have to go out of there way when they've already volunteered their time to read something they're not obligated too?

When you're in a conversation, it's your job to understand your message is getting across to the other party how it was originally meant to be. It's not fair to force the other person to not only define their side but yours too.
 

Vermanubis

King of Evil
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
3,399
Location
La Grande, Oregon
NNID
Vermanubis
3DS FC
1564-2185-4386
Under most circumstances, I agree with you. With something of this nature though, it's extremely difficult to present something cohesive while having to repeatedly explain what a term means within the body of the text. I can see giving a definition of the words as a reasonable compromise outside of the main body, but inside, it would become too messy and would complicate an already convoluted concept.
 

~automatic

Smash Legend
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
11,498
Location
Arcata, CA
NNID
automaticdude
This is one aspect of communication that can be counter productive imo. You can use "larger" terms in order to be clear but these are ineffective if your audience isn't familiar with the terms, which has been part of the discussion going on in the thread.

This was a particularly interesting topic for me since I started to do a bit of public speaking for some community organizations dealing with immigrant rights stuff. Few of the people I have as an audience (which is fairly small 95% of the time) sometimes don't understand basic legal terms (or confuse these with other terms) but somehow have a grasp of the concepts which puts me in a situation that feels like walking around in circles if I can't use an analogy or a story.

This was a very interesting read (dope as **** bro) and I do hope you continue with your blogs since they're a nice break from the lulzy social threads I like. :colorful:
 

§witch

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
1,747
Location
Ontario, Canada
This is true, but should the person reading be willing to look up words they're not familiar with, the meaning becomes much easier to apprehend than if I cloyed it with allegories and explanations of the terms.
No. Allegories and explanations aren't necessary when you could just use a synonym that is much more widely used.
 

Teran

Through Fire, Justice is Served
Super Moderator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 23, 2008
Messages
37,168
Location
Beastector HQ
3DS FC
3540-0079-4988
But widely used synonyms don't make you sound smart. >:/
 

Vermanubis

King of Evil
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
3,399
Location
La Grande, Oregon
NNID
Vermanubis
3DS FC
1564-2185-4386
No. Allegories and explanations aren't necessary when you could just use a synonym that is much more widely used.
Synonyms don't exist for most of the technical terms in the OP. At least, not common ones. Like it or not, when learning things, you're going to have to learn at least a few new words. Expecting everything to be user-friendly is nothing but an insult to one's own intellect. I'll gladly edit the OP to reflect the depth of semiotics, intension, extension, deixis, pragmatics, semantics and so forth if you really want to see just how diluted this presentation already is!

But widely used synonyms don't make you sound smart. >:/
You got my number, but before I give you the satisfaction of pwning me, read the above paragraph. :p
 

§witch

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
1,747
Location
Ontario, Canada
Synonyms don't exist for most of the technical terms in the OP. At least, not common ones. Like it or not, when learning things, you're going to have to learn at least a few new words. I'll gladly edit the OP to reflect the depth of semiotics, intension, extension, deixis, pragmatics, semantics and so forth if you really want to see just how diluted this presentation already is!
So your entire point is that it's much easier to say 'bell's palsy' than to say 'half of your face is paralyzed'? Yep. You're right. But I don't know why you bothered to make that point.
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
Administrator
BRoomer
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
22,906
Location
Milpitas, CA
NNID
SSBM_PLAYER
It seems to me that "saving time" by using terms not commonly known to your audience serves only to instead put the burden of time on the reader, as he then has to stop at every other sentence just to look up what you're saying.
 

Teran

Through Fire, Justice is Served
Super Moderator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 23, 2008
Messages
37,168
Location
Beastector HQ
3DS FC
3540-0079-4988
It seems to me that "saving time" by using terms not commonly known to your audience serves only to instead put the burden of time on the reader, as he then has to stop at every other sentence just to look up what you're saying.
The internet is filled with acronyms and other words with skewed meanings or variations on words etc.

I mean if you pick out like a sample of 50 posts from this site even, a large majority of the posts here would completely bewilder someone who doesn't go on the internet often, and I'm not talking in reference to Smash terms.

Tbqh (see what I did there?), with every different circle of people or academic subject (especially science) there will come a time when there are words and terms that just don't have another truly efficient way of being expressed, so the technical terms become necessary.

I think people just don't want to read up and learn about things, which well... explains a lot!
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
Administrator
BRoomer
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
22,906
Location
Milpitas, CA
NNID
SSBM_PLAYER
I'm not recommending toward using language that's universally readable, I'm just noting that people don't usually start throwing around absurdly technical terms that usually involve some professional field or another if their target audience more likely than not has nothing to do with that field.

Internet acronyms obviously have a place when used on an Internet message board. I don't think saying them out loud while having a normal conversation is quite the norm, yet.
 

Vermanubis

King of Evil
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
3,399
Location
La Grande, Oregon
NNID
Vermanubis
3DS FC
1564-2185-4386
So your entire point is that it's much easier to say 'bell's palsy' than to say 'half of your face is paralyzed'? Yep. You're right. But I don't know why you bothered to make that point.
It goes far beyond that. If you commit yourself to the OP more, you'll notice I emphasize language as everything to the human mind. Language is the keyboard through which we interface with the program. Though it may be difficult to realize now, as some folks' primary focus seems to be refuting what I've said on the grounds of they just don't like how I presented it, technical proficiency in language opens doors previously shut due to inadequate interface with a particular "program."

Do you struggle with Math? Science? Music? Art? Every single one of these things is a language--information transference--that ultimately return, at their fundaments, to natural language. As language-based thinkers, our understanding of things is only as great as our understanding of language, as that's ultimately our conceptual analog.

If you've ever had a difficult time understanding something or explaining something, it's because you could not explicitly verbalize it, and the "program script" (the concept of which you're trying to understand) subverted due to insufficient rigor (explicitness). If you can define something, you understand it, and the more effort that has to go into defining something, the more the line between it and something else blurs, obfuscating the concept. If someone is okay with the repeated frustrations of subversive language, then there's not much that can be done about that.

It seems to me that "saving time" by using terms not commonly known to your audience serves only to instead put the burden of time on the reader, as he then has to stop at every other sentence just to look up what you're saying.
This blog isn't meant to appeal to a mass audience: it's meant to appeal to people who are genuinely curious and willing to learn. By this reasoning that it's only a burden on the reader, the same could be said for someone who pursues physical fitness. If you want to be ripped, you have to work for it, and not everybody has to be ripped, because some aren't willing/interested enough to invest the time into it. A subject of this nature is meant to be challenging, and I trust the audience's competence enough to be able to read about it. It's by challenging yourself that you earn understanding, not by picking up a "_____ for Dummies" book that undermines the intellect of both the reader and the integrity of the subject.
 

Teran

Through Fire, Justice is Served
Super Moderator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 23, 2008
Messages
37,168
Location
Beastector HQ
3DS FC
3540-0079-4988
I hear a couple of acronyms out loud now, not in my circles but I do hear it. Personally my pet peeve is people who say acronyms like a word.

Like AIM pronounced as the word aim always makes my eyes twitch. Off topic but just saying.
 

§witch

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
1,747
Location
Ontario, Canada
It goes far beyond that. If you commit yourself to the OP more, you'll notice I emphasize language as everything to the human mind. Language is the keyboard through which we interface with the program. Though it may be difficult to realize now, as some folks' primary focus seems to be refuting what I've said on the grounds of they just don't like how I presented it, technical proficiency in language opens doors previously shut due to inadequate interface with a particular "program."
Yes, you need to understand complex terms to deal with complex ideas or theories. But after that initial understanding, it is not necessary to communicate only with complex vernacular.


If you've ever had a difficult time understanding something or explaining something, it's because you could not explicitly verbalize it, and the "program script" (the concept of which you're trying to understand) subverted due to insufficient rigor (explicitness). If you can define something, you understand it, and the more effort that has to go into defining something, the more the line between it and something else blurs, obfuscating the concept. If someone is okay with the repeated frustrations of subversive language, then there's not much that can be done about that.
Here's where we can actually begin debating. Everything else thus far has been you fluffing up points that are hardly arguable. The idea that a thought cannot be considered a thought until it has been articulated has been one of the longest running debates in the history of philosophy. I believe that language holds back the thought-process because of its inherent vagueness.
 

Vermanubis

King of Evil
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
3,399
Location
La Grande, Oregon
NNID
Vermanubis
3DS FC
1564-2185-4386
Yes, you need to understand complex terms to deal with complex ideas or theories. But after that initial understanding, it is not necessary to communicate only with complex vernacular.

It is. Have you not read anything I've said? You're proffering arguments on ipse dixit reasoning: "because I said so." Why do we not need technical terminology after that initial understanding? That's not how the mind, linguistic reference or semantics works. Technical terminology assigns an epistemological symbol to an utterance--a term whose connotation and meaning are molecular, yet atomic--just like an algorithm. Once you understand the term and assign an extension to it, it completely obviates less rigorous and higher effort definitions. I'm sorry, but you're arguing just to defend an antiquated and obstinate view of linguistics.

Here's where we can actually begin debating. Everything else thus far has been you fluffing up points that are hardly arguable. The idea that a thought cannot be considered a thought until it has been articulated has been one of the longest running debates in the history of philosophy. I believe that language holds back the thought-process because of its inherent vagueness.
Fluff? You've yet to provide a coherent reason why anything I've said is wrong thus far. You're just digging yourself into a hole by saying the last sentence. That's precisely the purpose of technical language. I'm honestly in awe that you wrote that. It's basically evidence that you've misunderstood the entirety of the topic. Technical terminology isn't vague--its sole purpose is to ameliorate communication by removing the conventional flaws and ambiguities of natural language. That's precisely what I said when I mentioned that technical terminology has a concrete extension of a complex, yet singular symbol of meaning. The notion of verbalized manifestation is completely self-evident. Try to think about how your day is going to go without thinking of a single word. Plan your day without thinking of a single word. Hard, isn't it? Now try to define a word in your head without using words. Can't quite do it, can you? QED.

Words are algorithms, technical terms are far more efficient algorithms.

You're arguing more to be right than to learn right now, and it's about at that point where things go awry.
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
Administrator
BRoomer
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
22,906
Location
Milpitas, CA
NNID
SSBM_PLAYER
This blog isn't meant to appeal to a mass audience: it's meant to appeal to people who are genuinely curious and willing to learn. By this reasoning that it's only a burden on the reader, the same could be said for someone who pursues physical fitness. If you want to be ripped, you have to work for it, and not everybody has to be ripped, because some aren't willing/interested enough to invest the time into it. A subject of this nature is meant to be challenging, and I trust the audience's competence enough to be able to read about it. It's by challenging yourself that you earn understanding, not by picking up a "_____ for Dummies" book that undermines the intellect of both the reader and the integrity of the subject.
And yet, you made this blog to explain why you write in this way all the time. Obviously people who want to exercise will exercise, and people who don't will not be as in shape. That doesn't mean the ones who chose not to exercise should be bombarded with recommendations to the local gym every so often.

Sure, this blog in particular is probably only aimed at those willing to read through and look up definitions of new words. What about your usual posts? Are you only ever speaking to a group that you deem worthy? No, seriously, your very first line is
Sometimes (all the time) I tend to use technical terminology
And in the reply to me you claim
[It] isn't meant to appeal to a mass audience
Would it then be accurate for me to conclude that you have no intention of ever speaking to a mass audience?
 

Vermanubis

King of Evil
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
3,399
Location
La Grande, Oregon
NNID
Vermanubis
3DS FC
1564-2185-4386
And yet, you made this blog to explain why you write in this way all the time. Obviously people who want to exercise will exercise, and people who don't will not be as in shape. That doesn't mean the ones who chose not to exercise should be bombarded with recommendations to the local gym every so often.

Sure, this blog in particular is probably only aimed at those willing to read through and look up definitions of new words. What about your usual posts? Are you only ever speaking to a group that you deem worthy? No, seriously, your very first line is

And in the reply to me you claim

Would it then be accurate for me to conclude that you have no intention of ever speaking to a mass audience?

That's referential humor. Anyone who sees me around the boards knows I have a thing for words. It's not literal.
 

§witch

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
1,747
Location
Ontario, Canada
It is. Have you not read anything I've said? You're proffering arguments on ipse dixit reasoning: "because I said so." Why do we not need technical terminology after that initial understanding? That's not how the mind, linguistic reference or semantics works. Technical terminology assigns an epistemological symbol to an utterance--a term whose connotation and meaning are molecular, yet atomic--just like an algorithm. Once you understand the term and assign an extension to it, it completely obviates less rigorous and higher effort definitions. I'm sorry, but you're arguing just to defend an antiquated and obstinate view of linguistics.
Understanding is a one time thing. You've stated repeatedly that you will not explain terms because those who don't understand your terminology aren't worthy of understanding you. That's why it's not necessary to always speak in technical language. For the purposes of being understood.


Fluff? You've yet to provide a coherent reason why anything I've said is wrong thus far.
Yes, fluff.

You're just digging yourself into a hole by saying the last sentence. That's precisely the purpose of technical language. I'm honestly in awe that you wrote that. It's basically evidence that you've misunderstood the entirety of the topic. Technical terminology isn't vague--its sole purpose is to ameliorate communication by removing the conventional flaws and ambiguities of natural language. That's precisely what I said when I mentioned that technical terminology has a concrete extension of a complex, yet singular symbol of meaning.
Language is vague because of subjective interpretation. Every written definition of every word will be slightly different. Linguistics is hardly exact.

The notion of verbalized manifestation is completely self-evident. Try to think about how your day is going to go without thinking of a single word. Plan your day without thinking of a single word. Hard, isn't it? Now try to define a word in your head without using words. Can't quite do it, can you?
I can't describe my day to you without words, just as I can't draw my day for you without images or dance my day to you without moving my body. Obviously you can't do these things because the entire notion is paradoxical.

Have you ever been unable to articulate the definition of a word that you know you understand? Of course, it happens all the time. It's completely useless however, because communication is the only thing that matters in our society and we've decided that language is the crux of it. The point is though, that language isn't the only way to communicate, it just became predominant.

Thou art pretentious. Or a prick. Probably both.

Words are algorithms, technical terms are far more efficient algorithms.
Thanks, really, that's good. Keep saying it.

You're arguing more to be right than to learn right now, and it's about at that point where things go awry.[/QUOTE]
Jesus Christ. Nothing you've said is anything I haven't seen before. I've read elementary linguistic philosophy.
 

#HBC | Nabe

Beneath it all, he had H-cups all along
Joined
Oct 21, 2010
Messages
3,932
Location
Can't breathe, but the view is equal to the taste
This is a very interesting topic, as I always find myself wishing that people spoke with a little more technicality. I have disagreements almost every day that are entirely rooted in discrepancies between someone else's understanding of a word and my own. On the other hand, having a discussion where you and the other person are both sure that your meaning is getting across... it's just refreshing, isn't it?
 

Vermanubis

King of Evil
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
3,399
Location
La Grande, Oregon
NNID
Vermanubis
3DS FC
1564-2185-4386
Understanding is a one time thing. You've stated repeatedly that you will not explain terms because those who don't understand your terminology aren't worthy of understanding you. That's why it's not necessary to always speak in technical language. For the purposes of being understood

I didn't say it was always necessary. I can see why you take issue with this blog though, as you seem to already be challenged by reading.

Language is vague because of subjective interpretation. Every written definition of every word will be slightly different. Linguistics is hardly exact.

Subjective is the favored word of every philosophy neophyte. Technical terminology is not subjective.


I can't describe my day to you without words, just as I can't draw my day for you without images or dance my day to you without moving my body. Obviously you can't do these things because the entire notion is paradoxical.

I didn't ask you to describe it. I asked you to think about it. This is the 6th time you've straw-manned me. You also shifted the focus from your mistake. You contended that words were not the seed of thought. I asked you to perform a task that would emphasis your mistake as self-evident. One can't think, in the purest sense of the word, without words. One can spatially map things, but they can't think.

Have you ever been unable to articulate the definition of a word that you know you understand? Of course, it happens all the time. It's completely useless however, because communication is the only thing that matters in our society and we've decided that language is the crux of it. The point is though, that language isn't the only way to communicate, it just became predominant.

Rarely. When that happens, it's because you intuit a word's meaning, and thus only have an understanding of it in a specific context. If you can't define the word, you do not understand it. Intuition and understanding are two very different things. Definition signals knowledge of something's properties, its relationships and its categorical significance. Definition is the metaphysical version of ostensive definition--pointing to something. If someone asks you to point to a tree, and you point to a rock, you've performed the ostensive variation of a giving a wrong definition. If you point to a tree, you've defined the tree.


Thou art pretentious. Or a prick. Probably both.

Maybe. I do think you should stop debating on the grounds that you want to pwn the prick though. It makes one look a little silly.


Thanks, really, that's good. Keep saying it.

Words are algorithms.


Jesus Christ. Nothing you've said is anything I haven't seen before. I've read elementary linguistic philosophy.
I'd wager that's because you don't understand a word I'm saying. You're too preoccupied with intellectually dominating me to not immediately dismiss what I say.
 

infiniteV115

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 14, 2010
Messages
6,445
Location
In the rain.
I didn't even bother to read the whole thing (read like the first 2.1 paragraphs) cause I'm kinda busy but I'll say this
Never once, when I read anything you've ever said, did I think "wow, what a pretentious douche"
My thoughts were more along the lines "this dude is ****ing awesome"

If your vernacular renders you esoteric, it's not your fault. It's everybody else's.
 

Vermanubis

King of Evil
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
3,399
Location
La Grande, Oregon
NNID
Vermanubis
3DS FC
1564-2185-4386
This dude's posts are always amazing.
I appreciate it, Chris. I'm glad you enjoy them. :colorful:

This is a very interesting topic, as I always find myself wishing that people spoke with a little more technicality. I have disagreements almost every day that are entirely rooted in discrepancies between someone else's understanding of a word and my own. On the other hand, having a discussion where you and the other person are both sure that your meaning is getting across... it's just refreshing, isn't it?
Yes! This is one of the many terrific things about technical specificity. It's refreshing knowing that you <nailed> what you meant to say.

I didn't even bother to read the whole thing (read like the first 2.1 paragraphs) cause I'm kinda busy but I'll say this
Never once, when I read anything you've ever said, did I think "wow, what a pretentious douche"
My thoughts were more along the lines "this dude is ****ing awesome"

If your vernacular renders you esoteric, it's not your fault. It's everybody else's.
Thanks, dude! That means a lot. :colorful:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom