Event - Apex 2015 Apex Pools are looking like a huge joke right now.

[Green Ranger]

Anyone know when pools are gunna be posted?

 

[Housewife]

Ok....but WHEN ARE POOLS GETTING RELEASED.

Gosh dang it GR you beat me by 2 minutes

 

[Green Ranger]

Derail the thread!!! its ****ty anyways!

 

[Strong Badam]

just beat everyone and there won't be a problem....

 

[W.C.N]

Ally just asked on FB and Keitaro is still working on them

 

[Yobolight]

Laijin quit being a ***** and get better at the game, then this wouldn't be a such a big issue for you.

 

[Player -0]

Beat everyone and don't get hit....

Kinda read through it and didn't understand a thing but I'm going to offer my opinion anyway... (It's what everyone else does for other threads...)
Pro players skipping pools seems better than them just smashing through lower skilled players. It's kind of like going through Poke'mon and beating gym leaders and feeling accomplished you've made it this far and then get wrecked by the Elite Four. You feel like you've earned your way this far by moving through pools and then realize that you need to train ("your poke'mon") in order to beat the Elite Four.

Awkward allusions and explanations and comparisons.

 

[t3h Icy]

The only real difference between a giant bracket and bracket pools is that it's possible to be rematching the same person in Losers' super early. For example: http://evo2013.s3.amazonaws.com/brackets/ssbm_a57.html you can see Noobking faced Crush twice, whereas if it were just a giant bracket, it would be very unlikely they would have rematched. Everything else is functionally the same as a giant bracket.

 

[Archangel]

This isn't even a matter of winning, it's a matter of how enjoyable the experience, and your odds of placing high if your name isn't M2K, Mango, Dr.PP, Hbox...etc. Lets be real, We all know who the better players are and the ones who will make it out regardless of who's in their pool. Hell, you could put 2 of the top 6 players in the same pool and they'd make it to the top 2 in there pool....which is the problem. Everyone else is auto eliminated. Even if it's one 15th best player in the world, they will lose to 1 and 2. Seeding won't be a problem though.

 

[Laijin]

The responses in this thread are down right hilarious as well as some of the responses I've seen elsewhere.
No one in this thread is complaining about not having a chance to make top 1 or 2 seed. Not even I, the creator the thread, is worried about not making it out pools. I'm fully confident that I'll body anyone in my way. So quit assuming I'm scared of losing or w/e.

Since it seems most of you misunderstood what the thread's aim is, i'll spell it out for ya(as a couple of people have kindly done so already).

AN ENJOYABLE TOURNAMENT EXPERIENCE.

Nearly everyone I've talked to about this said they feel like their wasting their money even coming to Apex.
The difference between EVO and Apex in going 0-2 in bracket is that well, if you lose in EVO you have Vegas to enjoy for the rest of the weekend. If you lose at Apex, golly gee I get to spend my vacation in New Jeresy, the asshole of america.
Just because the FGC does huge masssive brackets doesn't mean we have to do the same. We're above that IMO. As seen in the FC series, Pound series, etc etc. Smash tournaments have been designed to be a very enjoyable experience from the bottom up. I really don't like how some of you are not even acknowledging our lower level players. Those are the guys that make up the bulk of the community. The goal of the tournament should be to make this an enjoyable experience for everyone, and as time proves this is best done when you can give a person as many tournament matches as possible even if they are gonna lose them, they still walk away with a satisfied tournament experience and wouldn't be so quick to say "**** comnig next year im just gonna go 0-2 again" or w/e.

I really don't see how thats too hard of a concept to understand for some of you.
For others, I do respect your opinion of having it cut throat since its a national tournament and you want to see where you are in the nation. But please see where I'm coming from. I love this community and it bothers me greatly when I see the second largest melee tournament of all time getting a tsunami of complaints before the tournament even starts.

 

[Arcadia157]

The goal of the tournament should be to make this an enjoyable experience for everyone, and as time proves this is best done when you can give a person as many tournament matches as possible even if they are gonna lose them, they still walk away with a satisfied tournament experience and wouldn't be so quick to say "**** comnig next year im just gonna go 0-2 again" or w/e.

This is pretty much how I'm feeling about this right now. I want to know where I stand compared to the rest of the players and I don't think I'm gonna go 0-2, maybe 2-2, but even at the bigger tournaments I've been to, it's been a far better experience to play against as many people as possible with the competitiveness involved even if I've already been eliminated from advancing. People keep arguing that Apex isn't a tournament to cater to the new players and help them get better, but it's more of a test for the better players to see who's on top/advancing more than the others. That's cool and all, but they're pretty much only the top 10%. If you wanted a tournament for the top 10% of players, you should've made the tournament an invitational or something. The lesser players who contribute to the majority of the pot shouldn't be disregarded, but that's the feeling I'm getting from the vast majority of the overly-entitled "top smashers." After all this news coming out about the tournament style, I doubt I'll be satisfied with my experience, but I'm not going to try to have a bad time on purpose. However with that said, I'll probably still stay home next year and watch from home. It beats wasting 10-15 hours in a car and spending ~$200 to play just two tournament and then pretty much just play friendlies with people I don't even know.

 

[rjgbadger]

Laijin don't bother wasting precious keystrokes; Apex staff doesn't care about your concerns about the most pleasurable Smash experience. They have better priorities.

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...o-be-a-joke-we-want-round-robin-pools.343221/

 

[W.C.N]

The last 3 posts seem to have ignored what I've said, it's not about you being in New Jersey after your out, YOUR STILL AT APEX with artist alley, games to play friendlies in, matches of the year to watch, be apart of the hype, but the bigger part that I mentioned before...hangout and party with the players you watch on stream every week or even just with a giant amount of people that also love the same game you do

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

"Just win, baby!"

- Al Davis

 

[Juushichi]

you guys are being babies lol

an "underwhelming tournament experience" at an international is only because of poor prep, inexperience and etc, but you're going to play against the best of the best. this is where people really start to show what they're made of. all of your prep is for stuff like this.

you can MM and friendly all you need to outside of this. outside of that, you get EXACTLY what you signed up for. you choose to go to a tournament with the rules that are dictated in the thread. APEX 2012 was also bracket pools and people indicated that APEX would continue this way.

if you don't want this experience, don't sign up for the tournament. Melee still almost got 700 with people who should know what this entails

shut up and put up.

 

[Deleted member]

The amount of weak sperm in here is ridiculous. I'ma make this real simple for you slower ones:

Tournaments are about seeing who's good. It's not how much you enjoy it, how hype the matches are, or how you and your friends circle-jerk to each other. So for everyone out there that doesn't like a tournament where the best players win, who doesn't want to watch players get timed out, and people that don't like splitting "because it ruins the hype": No Johns. Get better and deal with it or don't show and save everyone else from your trivial bitching. You aren't entitled to shit other than your chance to win the prize money based on your proficiency at the game. No one cares about your weak garbage and the tournament will be more enjoyable without you. Seriously, stay home.

 

[Zodiac]

Alight so the pools are for seeding. That's pretty much it guys, other than that it's a lot like just making it into bracket right from the get go since they are bracket pools and carry over. So just bring your A game as if you were already in bracket and give it your best without the "only top two make it out/bracket pools are dumb" john's ready to fire.

And if you are still itching for competition afterwards there's always money matches. Be the next kdj.

 

[Olikus]

The amount of weak sperm in here is ridiculous. I'ma make this real simple for you slower ones:

Tournaments are about seeing who's good. It's not how much you enjoy it, how hype the matches are, or how you and your friends circle-jerk to each other. So for everyone out there that doesn't like a tournament where the best players win, who doesn't want to watch players get timed out, and people that don't like splitting "because it ruins the hype": No Johns. Get better and deal with it or don't show and save everyone else from your trivial bitching. You aren't entitled to shit other than your chance to win the prize money based on your proficiency at the game. No one cares about your weak garbage and the tournament will be more enjoyable without you. Seriously, stay home.

lol rage

 

[Rizner]

The only real difference between a giant bracket and bracket pools is that it's possible to be rematching the same person in Losers' super early. For example: http://evo2013.s3.amazonaws.com/brackets/ssbm_a57.html you can see Noobking faced Crush twice, whereas if it were just a giant bracket, it would be very unlikely they would have rematched. Everything else is functionally the same as a giant bracket.

This seems to have gone by unnoticed. This is the reason I don't really want bracket pools. I'd honestly prefer straight bracket, just so there aren't people who get knocked into losers then out of losers by the same person two rounds later. That would suck

Edit: although I do understand how it helps break up the time and helps with multiple event registration so I'm not really against them staying. Would just prefer it to not be necessary, and would be nice if other options like rr pools or bracket right away were possible

 

[Juushichi]

rizzy. this can happen in tournament regardless though.

you just have to try to beat the person in front of you.

 

[Bones0]

rizzy. this can happen in tournament regardless though.

you just have to try to beat the person in front of you.

It can't happen in RR pools.

 

[Rizner]

rizzy. this can happen in tournament regardless though.

you just have to try to beat the person in front of you.

Yeah, but more likely and earlier in the tournament than otherwise possible. But yeah, I see what you're saying

 

[Papapaint]

The artist alley and spectating are great, but they have no real impact on what tournament format works best. It's also a mistake to think that side events will ever make up for an underwhelming tournament experience. Even the sentiment that players can play friendlies or MMs after getting knocked out does not always satisfy players who wanted to get matches that were actually competitive as opposed to stomping ground warmups for world class players.

This is actually a really good point. Melee is getting very big right now, and it's important for us to nurture the new members of our community the best way we can. While I agree that friendlies/watching matches/hanging out with players is an important part of tournaments, the fact remains that it's the tournament itself that brings many new players. Furthermore, one of the biggest hurdles that new players face is learning how to deal with tournament nerves... some players are going to spend less than 10 minutes total playing tournament matches in straight bracket before being relegated to watching the "real" players do their matches for the next two days.

It sends a message to our newer players: "Thanks for giving us your money."

 

[p0stscript]

The responses in this thread are down right hilarious as well as some of the responses I've seen elsewhere.
No one in this thread is complaining about not having a chance to make top 1 or 2 seed. Not even I, the creator the thread, is worried about not making it out pools. I'm fully confident that I'll body anyone in my way. So quit assuming I'm scared of losing or w/e.

Since it seems most of you misunderstood what the thread's aim is, i'll spell it out for ya(as a couple of people have kindly done so already).

AN ENJOYABLE TOURNAMENT EXPERIENCE.

Nearly everyone I've talked to about this said they feel like their wasting their money even coming to Apex.
The difference between EVO and Apex in going 0-2 in bracket is that well, if you lose in EVO you have Vegas to enjoy for the rest of the weekend. If you lose at Apex, golly gee I get to spend my vacation in New Jeresy, the ******* of america.
Just because the FGC does huge masssive brackets doesn't mean we have to do the same. We're above that IMO. As seen in the FC series, Pound series, etc etc. Smash tournaments have been designed to be a very enjoyable experience from the bottom up. I really don't like how some of you are not even acknowledging our lower level players. Those are the guys that make up the bulk of the community. The goal of the tournament should be to make this an enjoyable experience for everyone, and as time proves this is best done when you can give a person as many tournament matches as possible even if they are gonna lose them, they still walk away with a satisfied tournament experience and wouldn't be so quick to say "**** comnig next year im just gonna go 0-2 again" or w/e.

I really don't see how thats too hard of a concept to understand for some of you.
For others, I do respect your opinion of having it cut throat since its a national tournament and you want to see where you are in the nation. But please see where I'm coming from. I love this community and it bothers me greatly when I see the second largest melee tournament of all time getting a tsunami of complaints before the tournament even starts.

I guess I second this a little bit. I'd be lying if I didn't. But as for the actually tournament, it will be big and a blast. No matter how much you think these pools are bs, the point is for the ultimate amount of excessive hype. Don't be a Debby Downer and cheer up!

Try your hardest and maybe you'll show out as a seeded player. If not, there's always the possibility of EVO 2014. (plz based smash gods)

 

[soma ghost]

People have to be real. This tournament is WAY to big for round robin pools. It's just not doable.
Apex is a tournament for the best of the best AND for lower level players to see how they stand against the best. It's a 3 day tourney, get some high level friendlies in if you are there to level up.

ROM 6 having bracket pools was a huge mistake IMO though. Pound 4 was ran with round robbin pools with 340 entrants.
As a TO I think you give people the most you can for their money with the time you have. But anyone who is asking for round robin style pools, in a tournament of this size is not thinking.

 

[Rizner]

People have to be real. This tournament is WAY to big for round robin pools. It's just not doable.
Apex is a tournament for the best of the best AND for lower level players to see how they stand against the best. It's a 3 day tourney, get some high level friendlies in if you are there to level up.

ROM 6 having bracket pools was a huge mistake IMO though. Pound 4 was ran with round robbin pools with 340 entrants.
As a TO I think you give people the most you can for their money with the time you have. But anyone who is asking for round robin style pools, in a tournament of this size is not thinking.

I think top 4 making it out and for a reset into winners would be best if there were the time

 

[Renegade]

I think top 4 making it out and for a reset into winners would be best if there were the time

Resetting wins/losses at any point in a tournament is asking for collusion with a big neon sign.

 

[smashmachine]

Resetting wins/losses at any point in a tournament is asking for collusion with a big neon sign.

but I thought Chris G hasn't signed up yet

 

[tekkie]

i'm a player who won't make top 8 in tournament at apex. convince me to enter the tournament and not just buy a spectator pass.

 

[Bones0]

This is actually a really good point. Melee is getting very big right now, and it's important for us to nurture the new members of our community the best way we can. While I agree that friendlies/watching matches/hanging out with players is an important part of tournaments, the fact remains that it's the tournament itself that brings many new players. Furthermore, one of the biggest hurdles that new players face is learning how to deal with tournament nerves... some players are going to spend less than 10 minutes total playing tournament matches in straight bracket before being relegated to watching the "real" players do their matches for the next two days.

It sends a message to our newer players: "Thanks for giving us your money."

Players only getting 2 sets would be decent as long as they are relatively close and even matches. The reason going 0-2 sucks so much in Melee is that you just get absolutely trashed for the first game guaranteed, and then your second opponent is dependent on bracket/seeding luck. Plenty of randoms who may not necessarily be that bad end up losing to 2 amazing players and they're knocked out. Even in RR this is dumb. This is why I think seeding ranked players into a pro bracket so they're not curb stomping noobs is the best solution for tournaments with time constraints. I'd imagine it also makes balancing pools much easier because you don't have to worry about putting too many good players in one pool. I'm tempted to take all the entrants off of the Apex website and create my own pools, but they seem so resistant to anything outside of bracket pools it's pretty futile.

 

[Zink Imp]

I don't expect to go far in Smash tournaments, but I sign up anyways because its fun just to play people.

but I thought Chris G hasn't signed up yet

I asked him about Smash at Apex and he says he's only doing Marvel. He only does Smash at smaller tournaments.

 

[ERayz]

I kind of understand the need for bracket pools for Apex, and I'd like the idea of putting top players in the main bracket directly, or just making them skip R1 pools be applied, so random players and semi-good ones have a better shot at playing good/more matches.

What I fear though, is that Bracket Pools become the norm for all events. I already hate top 2 advances RR pools because seeding in large events adds randomness, now with Bracket pool, it gets even worse. And Bracket pools are definitely unnecessary for most events ( about under 400 entrants )

 

[Rizner]

Resetting wins/losses at any point in a tournament is asking for collusion with a big neon sign.

That makes sense. Nevermind on that point

 

[ZLF Aurora]

Geez. I read this thread and all I see is "Waahhhh. I'm not getting free wins at the world's largest tournament."

Just don't get 2-0'd. lol

If you want to be the best in the world, then you're gonna have to bust your ass to prove that you're the best.

 

[Acryte]

Yea last time I checked Melee didn't have problems running on time without straight bracket. In fact in recent years it's known to do fairly well time-wise as long as Armada doesn't end up fighting Hungrybox.

If this is a straight bracket, a poor seeding will eliminate a lot of hype matches that could have occurred while other people way less skilled make it much further before being eliminated. Pools do a much better job at correcting that because our community doesn't have a perfected ELO system to rank them. Still don't see why we couldn't at least get a bracket reset.

 

[Juushichi]

i'm a player who won't make top 8 in tournament at apex. convince me to enter the tournament and not just buy a spectator pass.

no

if you feel it is not worth it, don't ****ing enter. no one is holding you at gunpoint lmao.

I bought a spectator pass at APEX last year because PM was not a main/open tournament. I played friendlies, got moneymatches, saw hype sets, met yipes and dieminion, played doubles friendlies, met my eventual PMBR teammembers and people I have been talking to for years prior to my first national. i made my money work for me and the only reason i'm not going this year is because i don't have the money to do so.

what is so difficult to understand?

in fact, your response to this doesn't even matter. if you are going you are going and if you are not you are not. have fun.

 

[Juushichi]

I kind of understand the need for bracket pools for Apex, and I'd like the idea of putting top players in the main bracket directly, or just making them skip R1 pools be applied, so random players and semi-good ones have a better shot at playing good/more matches.

What I fear though, is that Bracket Pools become the norm for all events. I already hate top 2 advances RR pools because seeding in large events adds randomness, now with Bracket pool, it gets even worse. And Bracket pools are definitely unnecessary for most events ( about under 400 entrants )

--- double post oops, but w/e

the thought that bracket pools at all events will happen is inane. your locals will cater to your local community's needs and wants, your regionals will also likely cater to this. sometimes they don't, sometimes they do, it really depends on the TO. your majors and what they cater to heavily depends on the TO, though obviously it also caters to your players (and what else they do there, in APEX's case). notice and keep in mind that APEX and EVO are not smash-solo events, though APEX is smash-primary.

i don't see bracket pools changing at APEX for a long time if not ever because of what Alex Strife is catering to and trying to do.

but I don't see for instance the Big House Series, Pound, Revival of Melee, Kings of Cali and others like it changing from what works for them.

Care to guess why?

 

[SOLAR]

I like conventional pools way more than bracket pools. I guess that since there's so many people that we can't do it the way it was done last time, right? Either way, it should still be a good tournament!

 

[Anomic_Punk]

Anyone know when pools are gunna be posted?

Pools will be available sometime later today, I believe.

I'm not opposed to the idea of funneling top players past pools, though arbitrarily saying "Oh this guy is good enough, he doesn't have to qualify via pools" bothers me inherently. Perhaps thats something that Apex seeding points could be used for in the future- it's an idea I'm willing to discuss with the rest of the staff. Not happening this year, though.

And I agree on the point that a tournament experience is supposed to be enjoyable- why else would any of us go to tournaments? But there are many ways to enjoy a tournament, even if you go 0-2 in bracket pools. (Friendlies, MMs, watching hype matches)
I've personally always thought the hype of "Oh I made it to round 3 of pools" is something desirable. But, unfortunately- with a tournament of this size that's not possible. Were it melee alone, I could see multiple waves of round robin being feasible; but Apex has multiple events, with some players entering more than 1 event. So... I don't think Apex will use the round robin format again anytime soon.

But keep the feedback and constructive criticism coming in! I personally am always looking to improve as a TO, and I believe many of the other staff at Apex would like to improve the tournament experience for attendees as well.

 

[Laijin]

I really like the idea of the seeding points being used to advanced past the pools. It would make APEX seeding points way more valuable than they are now and motivate people to come out to more Apex Qualifiers. It could work out to be an awesome idea for next year.

I posted this thread on the Melee It On Me fb group(it seems to be way more active than smashboards) since this doesn't really just apply to APEX specifically, but nationals in general. The response I got was appalling. Toph(probably one of the most annoying pricks i've ever had the pleasure of communicating with) bans me for a week for making the topic about it and called it trolling. Absolutely horrible response from the community as well, especially by Hungrybox who probably gave the worst response I've read on the subject altogether. Thats what I meant when I mentioned responses from elsewhere besides this thread.

Maybe there should be less games at Apex next year? And more focus on the smash games. Unless all of the other non-smash games are truly getting 100+ man tournaments, devoting all that time to them seems kinda silly. =\ Since that seems to be the main excuse as to why we are doing bracket pools to begin with. With Smash 4 coming out this year, Apex 2015 will have another smash game to support. So dropping a non-smash game or three(or four) would seem like a realistic idea if they wanna have enough time to do everything since its just my guess, but Smash 4 will either rival melee in numbers next year OR surpass it.